Long time lurker, never posted on /pol/ before, but I feel like an actual political discussion should ensure.
What is your opinion on objectivism? Should a man hold his happiness as the highest value that he can work for? Do you believe selfishness of this kind is productive? Do you think that if people cared more about themselves than society that humanity would be moving in a much better forward progression?
links related:
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ukJiBZ8_4k
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMTDaVpBPR0
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEruXzQZhNI
some based Ayn
>>77987942
Her books were commissioned by the Rothschilds as a reactionary tale to the expected reactions of their domination through Zionism and the dark enlightenment.
They are trash SJW programming.
Go start a business.
she was a jewish cia agent, why would anyone trust what she wrote
>>77988139
Nice
>>77988209
Do you have any proof for that claim?
>>77988300
You as well?
Bump
Pol needs based Ayn.
>>77987942
>Do you believe selfishness of this kind is productive?
Its the most productive force on this planet.
>Do you think that if people cared more about themselves than society that humanity would be moving in a much better forward progression?
Yes
>Doing what you want your entire life
>Being told what to do your entire life
Hard choice
Captcha: based Roark
People forced into blue collar roles for lack of white collar aptitude feel more whole inside seeing tangible results of their labor, and are far more likely to see value in objectivism, lack of selfish desire, nationalist pride, faith in God, and honor of family
>>77989026
>arbitrary
>implying working for someone isn't in self interest
/Leftypol/ is so bad at making memes
>>77987942
I WARNED YOU ABOUT OBJECTIVITY, BRO
>>77988139
shes smart but shes either not admitting the whole picture or not smart enough to figure it out. shes blaming government and society when the fact of the matter is that humans do these things of their own volition because they care about each other less than hopeful people would hope they do. it is thus more correct to say it is inevitable rather than to get angry only -when- it happens.
not that shes wrong. she just has more thinking to do.
>>77987942
>Do you believe selfishness of this kind is productive?
It's the only ~ism that tends towards an equilibrium. All others eventually collapse under their own weight.
People will claim that capitalism won't maximize equity, or social """good""" and they're right. It optimizes for economic liberty.
There are many more people who want comfort and safety over freedom. That's why ancap is impossible for humans. Government and religion naturally emerge in any society, in the same way that ant or bee colonies organize themselves organically. They will always impose their will on you with their collective force.
Because of that, welfare is almost a necessity, if only to keep niggers quiet and content so they don't revolt. But that is a vicious cycle and eventually society collapses and millions die through famine and disease.
There is an even bigger cycle that keeps this planet in check.
Freedom™ lovers won't be able to live in the society they want until we can start colonizing other celestial bodies. Earth is too small to be the (mostly) closed system it is with our population growth.
>>77991018
>>implying working for someone isn't in self interest
The idea is that it isn't inherently in your self-interest
>>77991957
>welfare
>necessity
you could also just remove the niggers
solving
both
problems
The self is the only
this post won't even be read
>>77992152
i read it
it was p spooky breh
>>77987942
It's stupid.
Don't get me wrong, I understand it completely, but it is devoid of human morals. It supposes a "right way" and backs it up with example, and by the logic it presents, it sounds good, but it's just wrong.
When you say "Progression", for example, who does progression benefit? Food benefits the hungry, not the gluttonous; drink benefits the thirsty, not the drunkards; sex benefits the married, not the lecherous. When someone says "Society needs to be progressive", they're saying this about society in relation to a utopian society; but what they are doing in actuality, is saying "We need to conform to the strawmen", the strawmen being the assumed ideal. It's like coming up with a dream like "mountains of chocolate", and then preaching mountains of chocolate to people until everyone's on board with the idea and saying "See, mountains of chocolate is an objective property of the ideal future, so we must make it happen."
Selfishness is not a virtue or moral, because morality itself is a collectivist attribute.
Morality and honor are essentially as inherently objective as body language, in that it is a biological function of the human brain; and it is fallible in the sense that it's a language.
We steal from our inferiors; cows, chickens, pigs, fish, crab, etc. humanity is full of superiors and inferiors, and we should therefore steal from inferiors as we see fit, because there is no objective line. Humanity isn't equal. Treating people equal doesn't make them equal; equal treatment doesn't solve inequality, it makes it tolerable, but it gets worse, and unequal people either steal back, or they disconnect completely.
>>77991826
>shes blaming government and society when the fact of the matter is that humans do these things of their own volition because they care about each other less than hopeful people would hope they do
Yes, I'm sure that this individualist is placing no blame on the individuals.
>>77991989
It's assumed that it's completely voluntary that you work for somebody else.
If you freely made that choice over all other choices, then you could say it is in your own self interest.
>>77992123
You have to realize that ancaps are cucks. The non-aggression principle and property rights memes mean you can't just genocide niggers and glass the middle east like we all would like.
I guess you could argue that the State imposing taxation for the welfare is an initiation of force, giving you the right to fight back. Which is why we have the 2nd amendment.
But like I said, ancaps are cucks.
>>77987942
It's a way for sociopaths to rationalize their deviant behavior.
>>77992630
>You have to realize that ancaps are cucks. The non-aggression principle and property rights memes mean you can't just genocide niggers and glass the middle east like we all would like.
What's it like to be a meme?
>>77987942
idk wat it is. I took a philosophy test once and my highest scores were 1.satre (90%) 2. rand (80 %) 3.nieztsche (60%)
Jewbook worthy, but thats all i know if it.
>>77988209
This is hilariously endearing.
You know that her books are just Aristotle spoken through a modern voice, right?
>>77987942
Why do white people think they need to change the world for the better. Jesus christ have you learned nothing? "Helping the world and society" got us cucked out of our fucking brains. Time to worry about ourselves you dumb cuck.
>>77989026
>work for boss; get money for doing so
>no private property rights disrespected
>all within self interest
Someone didn't put much time into this.
>>77992372
Sorry anon but morality is subjective and generally determined by a collective, it's the laws that cannot be produced by judicial agents and legislators.
That said, when the collective is disregarded and the individual is prioritized, that individuals morals could serve to hinder and balance his behavior in regards to altruism and charity. If not however, no harm is done. There is no inherent need to care for "the poor" or "the needy". Who are these people, after all, except for individuals who cannot support themselves? Is the collective of man doomed to be one big daycare service? I don't think so.
>>77987942
Anthem's vision of the hive-mind was way off, as anonymous image boards prove.
Life is full of suffering, and its chief purpose is pleasure. There is no god and no after-life; men are the helpless puppets of the blind natural forces that made them, and that gave them their unchosen ancestry and their inalienable character. The wise man will accept this fate without complaint, but will not be fooled by all the nonsense of Confucius and Mozi about inherent virtue, universal love, and a good name: morality is a deception practised upon the simple by the clever; universal love is the delusion of children, who do not know the universal enmity that forms the law of life; and a good name is a posthumous bauble which the fools who paid so dearly for it cannot enjoy. In life the good suffer like the bad, and the wicked seem to enjoy themselves more keenly than the good.
>>77993582
Chinese philosophy, nice.
>>77993380
That would assume that individuals are responsible for their own wellbeing, when I know you know that there's a hierarchy of people, superiors and inferiors. Social media is largely responsible for introducing marijuana into society, yet it's an individual choice to smoke it? Give me a break.
>>77992630
>If you freely made that choice over all other choices, then you could say it is in your own self interest.
True, but Stirner's idea is that you always come first, even if you make a decision to work for someone it can change blindly based on your own desires and not theirs.
>
You have to realize that ancaps are cucks. The non-aggression principle and property rights memes mean you can't just genocide niggers and glass the middle east like we all would like.
Yup!
if you like musicals, you're enjoy this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcUZrDX5P7A
>>77993881
But they literally are, I don't understand. How is that a controversial statement at all? I must be autistic because assuming a human being should care for themselves without reliance on others doesn't sound so insane.
There is a hierarchy, yes, but a hierarchy of individuals nonetheless. Those at the bottom can reach the top and those at the top can plummet to the bottom, each has his own destiny and personal utility at their disposal.
Just because social media reinforces marijuana culture doesn't mean people have to smoke, it's their choice. Are you trolling me, maple friend?
>>77987942
Based Rand was a Jew
>>77994277
>Just because social media reinforces marijuana culture doesn't mean people have to smoke, it's their choice. Are you trolling me, maple friend?
Whatever sales tactic, be it hypnotic manipulation, fear mongering, social proof, etc, that is advertising x, it's reasonable to assume that those very same sales tactics can coerce an individual into purchasing x.
Peer pressure will inevitably lead to the deaths of thousands of people, and that's a statistical fact. If it was a "choice", then the numbers and statistics would be erratic.
>>77993902
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcUZrDX5P7A
>liberty thick as tyrone's dick inside me
top kek
I just want to note that the existence of nuclear weapons (or any weapon of mass destruction) is itself a violation of property rights, so even in a libertarian society there is no place for them and would be banned.
>>77992886
are we all not children of kek?
I am an objectivist in regards to logic and reason being paramount when it comes to decision-making.
Also, I'm not a fan of the government intruding in the lives of the people/the economy too much, unless that government is comprised of men who are truly great.
>>77993902
the non aggression principle allows for self defence
if a rabid dog is barking at you and foaming at the mouth do you wait for it to bite you before you put it down?
>>77987942
The most profound work of modern times.
Literary Jesus 2.0
>>77995297
This hinges on the assumption that people aren't gullible retards. Humans aren't rational beings, we're generally stupid fucks.
>>77993274
Yeah but what if not respecting someone's property rights is in your rational self-interest?
>>77998200
You're missing the point. "Only in self defense" is an arbitrary limitation.
>>77987942
>but I feel like an actual political discussion should ensure.
No 4chan can't have a mature conversation about Rand or Objectivism. At least /pol/ is better about this but even here you're just going to get shit posted into oblivion. With stuff like this... >>77988209
>>77988300
I can confidently say I've been Objectivist for years. And it's hard to even talk about it because people can't even get what Objectivism IS. I'm tired of arguing with people who have second hand information or blatant lies and try to get me to explain or defend stuff they literally just made up.
>>77989026
Working for someone else and getting a pay check is within your self-interest. It's THAT simple.
See this is the type of shit I'm talking about it. The term "rational self-interest" they very CONCEPT seems to lost to people. It's basically "do things for other people but make sure you don't use them or they don't use you, make sure you both get something out of it" it's within your rational self interest to treat others kindly because it makes life smoother for yourself, but it's not within your self-interest to hurt/harm yourself for others, for instance.
WOW WHAT A HORRIBLE EVIL AND CHILDISH WAY OF LOOKING AT THE WORLD RITE GUISE?
Rand spend a lot of time writing about the difference between rational and irrational selfishness but you mainly get people conflating her philosophy of selfishness with what see considered immoral irrational selfishness.
Listening to based Sowell at this very moment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wln6lNTxVpY
>>77998927
>Working for someone else and getting a pay check is within your self-interest. It's THAT simple.
Yeah but it's even MORE in my self interest to beat them up and take the money, because that way I don't have to work.
>>77998927
>I can confidently say I've been Objectivist for years. And it's hard to even talk about it because people can't even get what Objectivism IS. I'm tired of arguing with people who have second hand information or blatant lies and try to get me to explain or defend stuff they literally just made up.
So much this.
>>77999638
This. My opinion is objective. Everyone's opinion is a spook.
Is Atlas Shrugged worth a read if I have access to a physical copy?
>>77999889
Sort of.
The build up to building the John Galt line is good but I was left too uninterested to read beyond it.
>>77987942
Why does Ayn Rand trigger people so easily?
>>77987942
It's a jew philosophy that only edgy adolescents believe in because "muh ego." Everyone goes through their Ayn Rand phase (myself included) and almost everyone outgrows it. You have to be really immature or really cucked (see Paul Ryan) to actually buy the bullshit
>>78000173
Because her literary works are actually kind of shitty and simplistic.
Characters are shallow and one dimensional. Mostly pontificate about their philosophy, as if people just do that in their day-to-day lives constantly.
>>78000308
Objectivism applied to philosophical dialogue?
My understanding of Objectivism (have not read Ayn Rand, use the term as a juxtaposition to Subjectivism) is to honour the truth and put aside your personal bias when making a decision, to honour rational thinking and the truth in all cases (i.e. reals>feels).
What are you referring to when you say Objectivist phases?
>>77987942
It's just a bunch of airport novels, right?
>>78000777
No she wrote about trains.
>>77991957
We won't see it in our lifetime, but spreading out into the stars somehow is necessary. I don't want to see us go extinct here. Humans have so much potential in the long run
>>78000777
>>78000979
autists discussing autism
>>77991826
You've either never read a word Ayn Rand wrote or understood none of it.
Rand wasn't blaming "government and society" for the ills of the world. She blamed individuals who adopted a particular set of irrational philosophic principles and who refused to think.
If you're genuinely curious about Objectivist philosophic principles, instead of the cuckshit that Slate and Jezebel try to spoon feed you, read pic related.
>>78002135
Forgot pic.
>>78000672
Objectivism isn't the juxtaposition of subjectivism at all. Subjectivism is basically just epistemological and metaphysical, objectivism is a weirdly closed ethical network composed of things like aesthetics, ethics, metaphysics, etc. It claims to use reason as the backbone of everything but comes to all kinds of retarded conclusions and uses degenerate jew logic to justify degenerate jew behaviors like selfishness and worker exploitation.
When I say objectivist phase I mean everyone reads some Ayn Rand books and goes through their "objectivist phase" where they think selfishness is cool and all that shit. I'm saying her audience is mostly edgy teenagers who haven't gotten a job yet
>>78002459
Leonard Peikoff is an honorary kike, check out his book where he said JFK's presidency was becoming fascist and the US would be Nazi Germany. Objectivism is just Oy Vey jewish victimhood taken to the extreme
>>78003085
I wouldn't say that, objectivism and Ayn Rand as well appeal to more then edgy teenagers, thats a severe pigeon holing of her beliefs. I'm in my late 20's and have held several jobs as well as military service, what would you say to an objectivist like me and those like me who aren't "teens in a phase"?
>>78003085
Well, that's not what I was referring to at all, I guess if this is the true definition of the word and all it entails, then that's pretty gay. It's just that i took this test (http://www.abtirsi.com/quiz2.php) and I got an Objectivist for the first category, I don't like the government redistributing wealth, but I do believe in some level of regulation.
I am of the belief that violence is important in all walks of life. If an employer is acting selfishly or abusing power to corrupt society, then the worker should use violence to gas the fucking kikes who rob them, same goes for a tyrannical government.
I'm not sure what to call myself then, I don't want to associate myself with Rand's Objectivism if it is hypocritical, I just don't want to have arguments based off of emotions, I think that crime statistics shouldn't be discarded because you have a black friend who is a cop. I guess I admire the truth, but that's an ugly term.
Reading The Fountainhead right now after I've watched the movie, which I unironically liked but probably because I saw it before reading the book. So far, all I can say is her writing skills are abysmal.
>>78003314
>where he said JFK's presidency was becoming fascist and the US would be Nazi Germany.
>let me avoid making an actual argument by screaming kike
You're making shit up. He actually said that the West, and the US in particular, was on the path to becoming like the Weimar Republic in terms of culture and economics, and would implode and give rise to a dictatorship. He also said there would be a profusion of degenerates like the Bohemiam Youth. Look at the Occupy hipsters and SJWs.
>>78003085
The reason that Rand called the philosophy objectivism was because its essential differentiating characteristic was that reason should be applied systematically to all aspects of life--including morality.
And subjectivism is not solely in the realm of epistemology. Moral subjectivism--or moral relativism--is the idea that no set of moral beliefs are better than any other and are essentially arbitrary. This leads to ideas like multiculturalism.
>comes to all kinds of retarded conclusions and uses degenerate jew logic to justify degenerate jew behaviors like selfishness and worker exploitation.
What specific conclusions do you think are retarded? There is no "worker exploitation" in any part of the philosophy. If you hate Jewish writers so much, you should stop regurgitating Marx.
>>78003517
Idk man, believe what you want. I'm not lending my support to any open borders, egoism, "anti-racist," "free trade," theory. It's just the same old jew bullshit: cut the ties with your family, country, race, etc., open the borders, don't buy American, be a slave to the dollar and yourself. It glorifies all the shit that is making everyone so depressed today. I think it appeals mostly to teenagers because it takes isolation + selfishness, and instead of stopping it, glorifies it, which can make people in that demographic feel empowered or whatever
>>78004653
Objectivists advocate controlled borders so political enemies, criminals, people with infectious diseases, etc. cannot enter the country and harm its citizens. They also argue that for as long as a nation has a large welfare state, then immigration should be open to people with the skills to support themselves on the society. For example, objectivists consider the Muslim immigrants to Europe as invaders who should be deported.
Rand also opposed desegregation, saying that it would only worsen racial tensions. She was right.
Rand opposed the US entering WW2 until we were attacked. Otherwise, she thought we should have stayed out of the conflict.
Rand denounced Israel as a fascist state that should receive no foreign aid from the US. But she recognized the Israelis as still better than the sand-sucking Muslims.
You're confusing objectivism with libertarianism. You wouldn't do that if you'd actually read anything written by objectivists.
>>77999491
Then you get arrested or he beats you up. Thus not in your rational self-interest to do so.
>>77999638
Yeah, like
>"Rand said it's okay to kill people because that's selfish!"
>"No she didn't."
>"You have to PROVE she didn't say that!"
>"She's didn't say that and spent most of her time talking about how the person who's always wrong in the situation with physical force is the one who INITIATES physical force. This repeated everywhere in her philosophy"
>"That doesn't prove anything! It's still selfish so it's still Objectivism!"
What the fuck am I supposed to do at this point? Hell at this point I go nuts and start putting quotes in peoples mouth like "I love Jews and wish them the best" -- Adolf Hitler and just post stuff like that over and over and they accuse me of shit posting and when I ask them if they get what I'm doing they wouldn't accuse me of shit posting. THEN after the I have to point it they backpedal and say they got the point but it wasn't a good point!
Like you can just make up shit people "said", who have historical records of what was said, and then tell someone to defend that. Of course shitposting crowd self-retards to that WONT see the point I'm making because they HAVE to disagree with me.
And I'm supposed to just sit here and explain things to these guys. I'm just fucking done. I know more about the philosophy because I studied it for years and I have to sit here and be told I don't know what I'm talking about by someone who clearly displays a lack of not knowing what they're talking about. Who is going to give you a fairer view of Rand? The guy who studied her or the guy who hates her?
>>78002459
This too. Peikoff lays it all out in simple terms.
>>78003517
Here's what I say, you hear about two stereotypes of Objectivism rigtht?
>"Objectivism is just an excuse to be an asshole"
and
>"Objectivism is for kids and they grow out of it"
Here's the deal, they're the same person. The person who think it's just an excuse to be an asshole is the one who grows out of that, because turns out this IS NOT an excuse to be an asshole. I'd say I'm more of a moral person than my average Christian peers who sin like sailors because they're going to be "forgiven", whereas I think I deal with the consequences of my actions in reality, right now, so I treat people better regardless. That's on the "excuse to be an asshole" front, but the people who think that's what it's about leave when they realize that's not what Rand was meaning or intending.
Plus "asshole" is subjective. What those people mean is "Objectivist guy actually asked me to help him out if I help him out! Jeez what an asshole, he should automatically do whatever I tell him and expect nothing in return!" Yeah, who's the asshole in that situation?
As a selfish individual, I deal with people selfishly, meaning I don't come to them empty-handed. If they invite me over to hang out, I bring food so I'm contributing. I don't ask others to live for me, which is something Rand said through Galt and something anti-Objectivist people seem to completely. Apparently this makes me a bad person. Not being a mooch and leech makes me a bad person according to fucking 4chan.
>>77995347
Hahaha that must've rustled some feathers
>>77999491
that's butchering a cow that was giving milk.
when you run out of cows, you starve.
One of my favorite things about listening to people complain about Ayn Rand is that she prepared for people to dismiss her on the notions of "unrealistic idealism" and "an excuse for sadism." No one will ever understand the irony of a person ridiculing her thoughts as narrow-mindedly selfishness unless you read her books.
It's so easy to tell who actually read the fountainhead. It's one of the most trivial tells in the entire world.
>>77987942
It's a narrow-sighted viewpoint that is not respectful of economic relationships. It assumes that work is somehow something individuals alone undertake, that somehow other parties aren't involved, and it doesn't talk about how those relationships should be managed. It's an excuse used by people to justify the exercise of economic authority over other people. It's an apology for a kind of slavery.
>>77987942
its based, welfare is the root cause of all the degeneracy and immigration problems of today and so called redpilled people on here dare defend socialism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL8g7zy6qxw
Hillary BTFO from beyond the grave
>>77998791
It's not arbitrary. Self defence is violence in response to aggression by another person. It requires action by the other party.
OP here, good to see that there was some modicum of adult discussion here, aside from the shitposters and Ontario leafs. I myself follow the objective philosophy, but I'll leave any discussion up to you guys.
If this thread doesn't die, please continue, someone might learn something new
