Is he wrong?
Why should the owner of a factory be entitled to millions while the workers who actually create the product get basically nothing in comparison?
Really makes you think.
yes.
>>77927764
Because he designed, funded and managed the whole operation.
If the factory owner is useless, why don't the workers simply stop working for him and create their own factories?
>inb4 because of kulak saboteurs
>>77927764
look up the economic calculation problem
>>77927764
>owner
>entitled
For fuck sake, are you so lost that words have lost meaning?
You could also say : why would the workers be entitled to anything else than what they contract for with the owner of machinery?
Where taking of entitlement makes sense because they don't own the machinery.
>>77928011
Based on a misrepresentation of socialism. Mises should've been gulaged anyway.
>>77928138
>he's wrong because reasons!
>let's kill him!
The thought process of the socialist.
>>77927764
Business fails: employee goes and finds new jobs. Owner goes bankrupt and loses his family and lives under a bridge
>>77927764
>1 post by this ID
>>77927764
you cant even know becuase you dont know anything he have said.
fuck off faggot.
>>77928138
>>77928301
Even cuck in chief Robert Heilbroner admitted that "Mises was right" (his explicit words, about economic calculation) in 1990.
>https://reason.com/archives/2005/01/21/the-man-who-told-the-truth
Of course the man remained a cuck at the core, so almost as soon as he realized Mises was right, he jumped on the political ecology craze to justify being a socialist again.
>>77927933
The person how fund the construction of a new production site is rarely the same person who design and manage it. These are the engineers and executives, which are wage earners
The average Joe doesn't have the millions necessary to build a factory and the banks won't lend then enough if he has no ressources
A buch of average Joes can do it, and it makes for the few employer-owned company that exist out there. But they're pretty much betting everything they have in the company, because this isn't only one investment among others like it is for big owners
>>77928060
Why should the ownership of machinery by a single person be allowed in the first place?
Why is society basically structured around enriching the lucky few in capitalism that own everything? Why shouldn't it be structured around enriching society as a whole itself?
>>77927764
>Why should the owner of a factory be entitled to millions while the workers who actually create the product get basically nothing in comparison?
Nobody prevents workers from creating their own factory, buying equipment, organizing logistics and whatever else is needed for the factory to make profits.
If you don't want to do all that - enjoy working for someone on their terms.
>>77927764
who cares
if you are not rich, you get fucked either way.
>bunch of party bureaucrats running the factory is somehow better than a single fatcat
Fuck that. Fact of this shitty life is that if you are born poor, you get fucked.
>>77929877
Property comes from taking unowned resources or contracting.
The man that possess the machinery has invested his money in it. Some people make better investments than others so they end up, with the accumulation of time, being much richer than others.
>>77930362
So basically the rich are entitled to being rich because they were rich enough to invest in something?
>>77930904
Say A and B have at time t=0 100 ducats.
A makes investments such that he gets 3% of return per annum. B makes 5% per annum.
After 40 years A has 221 ducats while B has 704. Say for a few generations, we get in 100 years family A having 725 ducats while family B has 13150, or 18more than family A.
The world didn't just spring from God's touch ten seconds ago, you are in a world with centuries of capital investments behind you that are still relevant. For instances land in Champagne, France being more valuable than land in buttfuck nowhere pakistan because of at least 2.5 thousand years of superior investments and farming and added value in the land. When the celts arrived in what is now France and began turning the land into something, France was literally a gigantic swamp, worse if anything than Pakistani natural land. This is only an example among millions.
>>77931980
>3%
2% in the calculations
you don't have to work for the owner, faggot
SEIZE IT
>>77928011
Applies mostly to central planning.
>>77930182
>party bureaucrats
Nice strawman.
>what is workers' self-management
>>77932184
Good luck surviving in that case
>>77929637
So if there has never been a factory which made millions without an "owner", why do you think it's possible?
It's certain you don't agree with the causation but you don't even see a correlation between a CEO and money?
We live in a capitalist society, if communism actually created wealth for everyone like you claim, then besides communists, why aren't GREEDY capitalists taking advantage of the millions waiting for them in another system?
Are they idiots? They're not greedy enough?
>>77932624
in most cases a failure
>>77927764
The workers are useless and their work means nothing, as long as they have no one who will sell their work and make profit out of it.
Why would you pay machines?
thanks to marx and engeks you are not treated like cockroaches by your bosses
t. mexican intellectual
>>77930182
Cooperatives are managed by the workers, not the party. Nothing wrong with that, the problem is forbidding private property.
If 10 guys decide to have their own company with no wage labor, it's ok, but a state not allowing people to create their business and hire labor because they consider it "exploitation" is wrong.
>>77931980
Dynamic investment calculation lads.
This guy gets it.
>>77933573
Well, the picture is even worse when you realize it's not just investors and better investors, but living-above-your-means never-saving-capital niggers versus savers and investors.
Did the worker buy the material? Tools? Utilities? If the answer is no then the worker made nothing
>>77927764
>Why should the owner of a factory be entitled to millions while the workers who actually create the product get basically nothing in comparison?
>the owner of a factory
>>77928390
Can find a better job than said workers.
>>77934121
Yeah, that's why welfare queens and SJWs piss me off.
While others take the risk to make more money with their savings, they buy some shit and also demand the piece of cake from the smarter people.
>>77927764
Value should be used to juggle your employees to have better values, but most employers do not care about the country.
>>77927764
>Why should the brewer be entitled to millions while the yeast who actually create the beer get basically nothing in comparison?
>>77927764
Because the workers have no skin in the game. All they have to do is show up every day, none of their capital is invested in the factory.
Lower risk, lower reward. Entrepreneurs who take higher risks have the potential for higher reward, but also risk losing their shirt if the business goes under. Whereas with the worker, if the business fails, they still have their savings and wealth.
>>77934943
>commiecucks like OP
>savings
Wew lads, let's not make assumptions here.
>>77927764
why don't commies understand that you're only being paid for the time to assemble the product and pretend that they are actually creating something and the boss is just stealing their profits?
is it autism?
>>77927764
Not everything about Marx is wrong. in fact many things was apply in the nazi Germany and it work.
I don't expect many people on /pol/ actually read Marx, though.
>>77935979
What about Marxism did they apply?
>>77930182
Not true at all. I was born poor, and I'm rich now... I went to a trade school, and I've worked for other people my entire life.
The only thing I did differently from most is I lived below my means, and saved like crazy.
I now buy luxury condos and rent them out.
Coming from nothing, I certainly had it harder than someone who had money given to them. But I'm not any smarter than anybody else and I never worked more than 40 hours a week (unlike most of my co workers).
I still have a 1993 Corolla. I didn't buy my first nice car until I was handed a check for $128,000 on one of my first deals.
>>77936729
>>77936729
Chinese people done the same thing.
>>77927764
>Risk all my money when planning and investing
>Need to make sure EVERYTHING IS PERFECT otherwise, i'll be indebted forever
This is why
>entitlement
Oh wait, you're serious, let me laugh even harder.
>>77927764
>Really makes you think.
that you're retarded, yup!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpA6eYIFKkI
le epic communism didnt do anything wrong and its always the police who are authoritarian but the only images this vice documentary can show of the popo fighting is when they are retreating after being set on fire or getting drop kicked or something and furthermore these fucking marxists are reactionary as fuck, no good argument other than "it will change, therefore I will destroy everything I see and try to hurt as many cops as I can. You don't agree with me? you're SHEEPLE! and I'll throw rocks at your friends head" goddammit fucking communists go die while crying the proletariat will never understand the struggle as the heroin overdose starts to numb you down while you look into the fluorescent lighting in an old abandoned industrial building (because your ultra-reactionary economic policies caused that building to be abandoned) while still feeling the pain of your gonorrea and herpes infection or whatever stds you filthy marxists carry around with you.
Would be willing to meet him halfway but commies always want to go nuts and hang all the ceo's
>>77927764
>Artists and inventors create products from nothing using their imagination and creativity
>Plebs create other people's products for them.
Learn the difference
>>77933277
No, it's thanks to capitalism, thanks to competition, if a worker doesn't like that place he can go to another place to work, same with the people who buy the products, if they don't like it they buy the competition
if the rich guy fucks up the company goes down
Capitalism isn't bad, the guy who becomes rich thanks to capitalism becomes the one who's job is to create jobs to people that wants to work and survive and if they are smart and willing enough to be rich like that guy they will be, but by no means it's an easier job
>>77927764
Workers can go and start their own companies and run it, it is easy, as every socialist who never touched a work in his life can confirm.
>>77935831
They jump over several logical steps. They don't understand how difficult it's to fight in the market or the cost of decisions like how much, where, when, etc. They only see the guys working with their hands, but fail to see the decision maker, who is god in economics.
Even Marx's grave has an entry fee.
>>77929877
Here's your (You).
Because the enrichment of society through the goods that the machinery produces is a natural outcome of the production process itself. Contrary to what socialists think, there are very real costs to running a factory/production facility. As long as those costs are real (in terms of natural resources, human capital in the form of ideas/engineering/labor to run the machines, and business relationships with other factories that may make pre-process products for your factory,) socialism will fail every single time. Producers want to be rewarded for providing a good or service, and consumers of goods and services tend to be happy to pay for these.
Capitalism is a much more natural and efficient system to get resources where they are needed the most. Supply + Demand as a model of distribution will always beat out "Bureau of resource management and price setting" in terms of efficiency, quality, and expedience.
The only way socialism could possibly work is in a post-scarcity world where there is no such thing as rarity for any and all resources. Until that happens, the invisible hand of the market will slap the shit out of you Commie faggots whether you like it or not.
>>77932364
Wording is important. Seize it, not create it. Socialism in nutshell.
>>77927933
>Because he designed, funded and managed the whole operation.
he didn't though, he only had the startup capital to get people to do it for him
if business owners created their businesses, positions like process engineers and managers and marketers and recruiters wouldn't exist
>>77927764
>Why should the owner of a factory be entitled to millions while the workers who actually create the product get basically nothing in comparison?
Like all leftists he confuses capitol with money and if you understand the difference then you know Marx was full of shit.
>>77942624
And those people just materialize out of thin air and immediately start working on their projects, right?
Muhrican education everybody.
Socialism works to avoid human extinction.
Capitalism will always fail when there is a shortage on resources. Capitalism tend to increase consumism hence faster the resources are exhausted. That's why capitalism is a threat to human specie.
The need to seize the factories is because owners usually produce more goods than the population need, that's when overproduction occurs. Those goods may never be used or reused for other purpose different than monopolize a specific market, so it's a evil tool that capitalists like to use to generate idle capitals and eliminate the ones who disagreed with their ideas.
>>77942813
capital* and it only means resources, which are really open for you when you have cash
Marx said what he said because he understood that without producing propaganda, intimidation/threats, and other absurd methods of oppression, workers could come together and bargain for whatever they think they deserve.
We recognize in modern times that there's a rigging of labor scarcity in numerous ways to remove all leverage from the low skilled workers.
>>77943022
>venezuela
wewlad
>>77927764
Why should the worker of a factory be entitled to millions while the owner who actually buys the machinery, transporting and raw materials while taking all of the risk get basically nothing in comparison?
>>77943407
>Venezuelans Ransack Stores as Hunger Grips the Nation
>A staggering 87 percent of Venezuelans say they do not have money to buy enough food, the most recent assessment of living standards by Simón Bolívar University found.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/20/world/americas/venezuelans-ransack-stores-as-hunger-stalks-crumbling-nation.html?
>>77942960
The capitalist doesn't design anything.
Have you never worked a job in your life? Dong Hung Lo from Hong Kong doesn't necessarily understand the business he's financing. Not at any technical level. He's only able to pay people who do.
Unless you think it's a real invaluable skill to bring more money to a consultancy firm. Jesus.
>>77943363
Like importing of more of low skilled workers, which socialists always support.
>>77943689
Maybe you should give an example.
>>77943407
you mean that capitalist state country?
>>77943022
How does it make you feel that your country is rich in one of the most valuable resources on this planet, yet your standard of living is much lower than that of other oil producing nations?
Why is that? What could possibly be the root cause of all that wealth consolidating in the upper echelon of your society even though you have a socialist economy?
>>77927764
Don't like the job get a different job. why are communists unable to understand this?
>>77943966
Venezuela is socialist you cocksucking euro filth
This is why Strasserism is great, its like communism but its anti-jew and its nationalist.
>>77932624
>empirical evidence of the results of communism is a strawman
r/fullcommunism's dankest meme
>>77944145
nah, Venezuela is capitalist country
You keep blaming socialism but actual socialism hasn't been tried yet
>>77943674
The guy who has the finances has to know what he will demand of others and takes the risks.
Jesus get a load of this faggot, waffles about workers owning the means of production and question whether I ever worked.
I grew up during socialism, they beat into us all that shit socialist here keep droning about, heard all of it thousand times before, and I love nothing more than american with silver spoon rammed so far up his ass he can actually taste the metal, lecturing me about it.
Take your chains and go hang yourself on them.
>>77943022
Exquisite bait
>>77934449
I guess that fucker shouldn't have started the company... Instead of investing the cash at his own personal risk, just bury the money in the ground...
Better yet, BURN The fucking money...
Or even better: surrender the money to the government and let them create the factory... Because the government have superior intelligence and ingenuity than a regular wealthy man who is an animal.
>>77927764
>while the workers who actually create the product get basically nothing in comparison?
Because they couldn't be bothered to start their own business in the first place. Because all they want is a weekly check. This is the inherent flaw with Socialism/Communism. Everyone isn't Henry Ford.
The real world doesn't operate the same way Academia does. You can't just lounge around all day spouting bullshit in order to make a living. And then make it mandatory for someone who wants to earn a Nursing Degree to first have to waste 6 months of their life in your Gender Studies class and pay you for the privilege.
In free societies people get to choose to do what they want, even if you think its stupid or not optimal. Marxism is built on the premise that everyone's lives should be directed by a handful of elite, and if the people think the Elite's choices are stupid, or not optimal, they get purged. This is why Marx and OP are both massive faggots.
>>77943363
Capital is not cash. Cash is not "resources." Capital is accumulated via production. The machinery is capital, the final product is capital, etc. Higher wages and lower costs come from increased productivity. Increased competition that is enabled by capitalism also helps increase production in other industries because all industries are connected. Unions are only for very privileged workers who are paid far more than their job is actually worth and are militantly protectionist and despise competition. Non-union workers do not do their jobs because of "intimidation" or "propaganda," that is absurd. They do their jobs because they want to make a living like everybody else.
>>77944408
>>77943966
>>77944145
Venezuela isn't capitalist or socialist. Venezuela is a rentier state, where you can't generate and accumulate capitals, and there are not factories seized neither.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rentier_state
>>77944436
Yeah, you grew up during socialism so you completely understand what happens at the opposite end of the spectrum.
>The guy who has the finances has to know what he will demand of others and takes the risks.
That's true but from the tone of this you make it sound like these investors are actually facing a risk like you or I would if one of us founded a company. I see 100,000 as a make or break investment, and that would only be enough to start up a restaurant or small shop. The predominant way of western business is that well-established men with millions or billions of dollars have the advice of professional financial experts, and they don't ever go out on a limb with these quantities of money which are very small relative to their worth. The romantic capitalism advertised (go figure) where you can start with nothing and build an empire... it just doesn't exist. If it ever did, it doesn't now.
>I grew up during socialism
I also want to mention to you that this doesn't matter. I'm not arguing in favor of any soviet garbage. I don't identify as a radical like that. I just understand Marx and I think that most of you don't.
If anything, growing up in socialism probably just means that you're too dumb to argue this after being subjected to their inferior commie education system.
>>77942186
thats insan
What happens to a socialist country when there is nothing left to seize
>If running a factory gets you more money, why do people work in them instead of starting their own?
>>77927933
are you towelface/showatype?
marx was right, i want read strasserism too!
>>77945388
Literally every one of those well-established men have themselves, or had family members that took risks in the past. They had a "make or break" investment that they took a risk on and it turned out to be successful. They used this success and the wealth it generated to expand their investments and become well-established. Entrepreneurship is a cruel mistress, and if your plan is not good you will fail.
I just don't understand the validity of the argument that socialists use when talking about wealth being concentrated in risk takers' hands.
What is your perfect system?
Do you really think that people should not keep and pass down the wealth they have generated over their lives? If so, how do you propose this "redistribution" occurs without theft or violence?
