For all things Christian
Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants alike are welcome to discuss theology. Try to be polite.
Atheists also welcome, but try to be constructive.
Pastebin for believers and curious folk.
http://pastebin.com/xMQ9wAwW
Good Scenes to watch
>Jesus Anime
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d-uB0vaoQo
>Jesus of Nazareth Sermon on the Mount:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDCbJ4vnMNg
>Jesus chases Jews out of the Temple
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEtBs6j7QgU
>Jesus gives sight to the Blind....and takes sight from those who can see
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY7vamVg99E
>Roman Centurion has more faith than anyone in Israel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNLSBjYDPko
>Ben Hur scenes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVlf7OiiTJE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbt2UUthWg0
>>77548301
hi
So guys, what are some cringy things you did in your atheist phase?
"Surely, you're not saying we have the resources
To save the poor from their lot
There will be poor always pathetically struggling
Look at the good things you've got
Think while you still have me
Move while you still see me
You'll be lost, you'll be so, so sorry
When I'm gone"
These are lyrics sung by Jesus in Jesus Christ Superstar. Do you think this passage accurately portrays His biblical message?
I'm thinking about becoming a Catholic. How long is RCIA? Do I just talk to a priest and start immediately?
Do you guys say Grace before every meal?
Im pretty sure there is no way I am going to be able to go to heaven unless I get an indulgence from going on a crusade or something
the pornjew is my master
>>77549219
"I must be mad thinking I'll be remembered - yes
I must be out of my head!
Look at your blank faces! My name will mean nothing
Ten minutes after I'm dead!
One of you denies me
One of you betrays me"
This is what Christ sings during the Last Supper. Again, does this accurately reflect Christ's message?
>>77549359
Idk bro
The Orthodox Church is the best Church
>>77550070
orthodox was a great propaganda tool for the KGB
the orthodox practice of letting priests marry is also wrong
PRAISE CHRIST FOR THIS LITTLE MIRACLE
>>77550223
That's not what it says in the NT and not the way it was for a thousand years until after the schism.
Thoughts on Jesus Christ Superstar?
>>77548070
Hard to be polite when those fucking catholics burned us to death.
>Cathar
>>77550564
I don't understand what you gaytheists mean when you post retards/ugly people in these threads. What's your actual point?
>>77548070
Does God not hate fags anymore now that they can marry and Omar killed a bunch of them?
>>77551810
God has never hated fags. He hates faggotry. Enough to send fags to Hell if they don't repent.
>>77552087
Hell doesn't exist. There isn't any evidence for the existence of hell.
>>77551977
Humans weren't created with original sin. We chose that on our own. Jesus didn't kill Himself. We killed Him.
>>77552087
This.
All you have to do is pull your cock out of the ass and say sorry and yer all gud.
>>77552181
There is plenty of evidence for the existence of Hell. You're confusing the word evidence with the word proof. If you want proof of the existence of Hell, be a faggot and kill yourself. Even if there was no Hell, unrepentant queers would still deserve to go there.
>>77552199
But Yahweh knew that humans would do that. If Yahweh exist, and he is omniscient. He knew that Eve would be deceived. Why would he create someone knowing their fate, knowing what they are going to do before they do it, and punish them based on those actions?
>>77552181
There isn't any evidence your sensory experience corresponds to real objects, but you believe it anyway.
>>77552381
An insincere confession is a sin.
>>77552441
That's not how it works. That isn't proof either. There is proof that the moon affects the ocean, why can't you prove the existence of an underworld filled with billions of people?
>>77552441
You might be functionally retarded.
>>77552231
Athiests can be define as someone who chimps out at the slightest mention of religion.
>a grown man posting on an Mongolian finger painting forum gets upset that people don't think like him and wants everyone else to know it upsets him
Wew lad
>>77552451
Gee maybe because He also knew that He would give them a way to avoid punishment by accepting it in their place? Have you read the Bible?
>>77552509
I don't "choose" to believe in anything. I'm compelled to, based on logic, reasoning, and facts. My sensory experience would be something a neurologist is familiar with. And it does correspond to real things, because if something didn't exist, how could my senses pick it up?
Christianity was manufactured (poorly) from the parts of other religions. Judaism even started out as polytheistic. Yahweh was just one of many gods.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZY2eeozdo8
>>77552465
God told them beforehand that eating the fruit was evil. When they ate the fruit nothing was revealed to them. That's when they realized that they should have listened to God.
>>77552616
You still don't understand that evidence and proof have different meanings. Look both words up in a dictionary, reread my previous post, then get back to me.
>>77552815
Logic doesn't compel you to believe anything.
You choose to believe your sensory experience corresponds to real objects - nothing compels you to.
>>77552815
>because if something didn't exist, how could my senses pick it up?
Every heard of hallucinogens? Illusions? That's a problem in philosophy for empiricists.
>>77552815
Read Descartes.
Born in the ever-flowing life beyond the dirt
Tell me what the purpose is for creating the earth
(Mainly we created the planet as man's habitat
Be fruitful and multiply across the planet's back)
[Well, why does hate exist?
The war and AIDS and shit?
If we're to be fruitful, why can't poor people pay they rent?]
(Cause love and hate, both sides are conjoined
Physical forms have to deal with both sides of the coin)
[Why do we die?] (So you can live!)
[Why do we strive?] (So you can win!)
(But why did you defy every truthful word I recommend?)
[My question back, why do you recommend and throw temptation in?]
(So I can test your patience and tolerance in the face of sin)
[But why a test when you hold all the answers to the state we in?]
(For you to bear witness the imperfections of mortal men)
[So it's a lesson?] (And a blessing
Journey back to where you have been
Cause before the tree can flourish seeds must first be planted in)
>>77552885
Jews are promoting atheism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkVC1gZInxQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0LhabQJ_-w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NQOnjswuFI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_atheism
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/the-jewish-thinker/.premium-1.669381
http://www.shj.org/
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/secular-humanistic-judaism-rejecting-god/
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/must-a-jew-believe-in-god/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/23/atheist-jews-judaism-without-god_n_978418.html
http://thehumanist.com/magazine/september-october-2014/humanist-living/jewish-atheists-and-koufax-jews
https://secularpolicyinstitute.net/numbers-the-rise-of-jewish-atheists/
Thoughts on Jesus Christ Superstar?
>>77552752
>>77552913
Yahweh is omniscient. He knows what they would have chosen to do, regardless of how many options are presented to them. He knows a baby is going to be born, only to die of malnutrition. He knows that people would kill his son. He knows everything beforehand. He knows if someone is going to be homosexual. He knows if someone is going to kill themselves. And he will send that person to be tortured for infinity even though he knew that would happen in the first place.
>>77552885
Your vanity is well known. You believe nothing but in seeking attention for yourself, you do not love yourself you only love the acknowledgement others could give you, and all that you lack in yourself you seek from others while denying the true worth given by your creator. The wisdom you have is borrowed, and nothing you say is new, you are simply a whore seeking acknowledgment which is worse than the average whore because they get paid. The only person who loves you you deny
>>77549359
I hear RCIA can last from 6 months to like a year. You go to like weekly classes or something.
>>77553063
>>77549363
We should be thanking God not only for our meals, but for every good thing that happens in our lives.
Sadly, we don't, mostly.
>>77553267
Does me knowing the arguments you will make rob you of the ability to make the choice to make them? And if not me knowing, how does God knowing rob them of their choice?
>>77552231
Friendly reminder that atheistic totalitarian governments caused the bloodiest century of our history.
>>77553070
You're implying my sensory experience doesn't correspond to real things.
>>77553124
A hallucination is caused by the endocrine system and nervous system. This is like saying dreams aren't real. Technically, dreams aren't. But they exist and happen. Dreams are not the same thing as our memories. We can remember dreams.
My atheist fedora"friend" keeps telling me Religion is a bunch of people fighting over who has the best imaginary friend. How do I refute him?
>>77549363
Before every dinner, yes. Eat dinner as a family every night and try to instill a sense of thanks in the kids.
My question to the catholics....the only thing I really can't agree with is the need to confess to a priest. Any other catholics have a problem with this?
>>77553267
Can't have love without hate. Its yin and yang any way you look at it. Whats the point of a world with no balance or reason to have faith? If it was all sunshine and rainbows then why would God ever make his presence known in any form? Men would be infallible and there wouls be no point in faith.
>>77549363
yes, the majority of catholics do
I grew up as a strong existentialist thinker and I'm reading both the Old Testament and the New Testament. It's been making me cringe so far.
>>77548070
Here's something I struggle with every single day.
I hope one of you can add some clarity to this conundrum.
I think it's safe to say that we all agree that God is omnipotent.
Well, if God is omnipotent and knew everything that would happen in advance, why did He create Adam and Eve, knowing that they would sin and ultimately he would be sending billions upon billions of people to Hell?
Does not the fact that God knows everything in advance mean that all of our thoughts and actions are predetermined?
The Bible even teaches predestination.
How then do we have free will?
Why would God create some of us just to go to Hell?
>>77553532
They have the choice, but they will pick only one. Regardless of how many choices are available, I will still pick the same one asuming we are on the same timeline. I would have always woken up today choosing Cheerios, regardless of how many other options for breakfest are available. You can go back in time, as many times as you want, and on that morning, I would still have chosen Cheerios. God knowing of what people are going to do doesn't affect their choices, but they are always going to make that same choice. God would know what choice they would make. If they would have chosen something else, God would have known it.
>tfw god, country, and family
>>77554100
What specifically?
>>77554047
Faith is caused by our brains. Superstition and the very desire to be alive, is what even caused us to be here in the first place. This is why we fear death. Our brains want to keep existing, we desire that, this is an evolutionary advantage. If we did not fear dying, the chances our genes would make it into our gene pool would be significantly less. Humans are intelligent, we have reached the point where we imagine a false afterlife, just to satisfy that nagging reminder that we will one day seize to exist. You can love without hating something. Hate and love are caused by different hormones.
>>77554101
"As Augustine says: 'Since God is the highest good, He would not allow any evil to exist in His works unless His omnipotence and goodness were such as to bring good even out of evil.' This is part of the infinite goodness of God, that He should allow evil to exist, and out of it produce good." - Thomas Aquinas.
As for the hell part, the Catholic Church does not teach that anyone is hell, because they believe it is rational to hope that everyone gets saved. And the Eastern Orthodox believe that hell isn't eternal.
>>77554101
The Bible is a very human work, and varies based on interpretation.
For example, because of the very question you've posed, Jehovah's Witnesses say God though having the power to be omniscient, chooses to use it selectively so as to not interfere with free will.
>>77549359
I think so. You should talk to a Latin Mass priest if you do
I am a Christian but I am starting to feel like God is a silent God. I do not see His works reflected in the current state of the world or people. My prayers have not lead me to a fulfilling Christian path as of yet.
I do not go to Church and do most of my communion with Him through books and online ministry. I've attempted to dedicate myself to a Church community before but found the people there are just as awful as non-Christians.
I'll believe in God the day Europe is white again.
Pray for me.
>>77554101
the answer to your first question is that he is separating the good from the evil. you have to earn being with God for eternity, because if this God did not do this, then what would the meaning of life be?
the answer to you second question is that God does not determine what we think or do, but because he exists through all of time, he knows all of the decisions we are going to make before we do.
Where does the Bible teach predestination? Only calvinists beleive that.
We have free will, God allows us to do whatever we want but his existance is like a circular timeline. Like an advent wreath. No beginning and no end, but just exists in all of time.
God does not create us to go to Hell, he creates us so that we can go to Heaven and live with Him.
>>77554499
Fear of death and a desire for an afterlife aren't the driving forces of religion though. For someone leading a wholesome and moral life, they do not think about how it will affect their chances of getting into heaven, they are too busy living a happy life.
Only those that have something to fear are occupied by the death thing and dwell on its religious implications.
>>77554415
Everything about it. It just doesn't feel divine, I feel like I'm reading the exaggerated diary of a medical healer who lived 2000 years ago. And that's just the New Testament. I don't know how people end up believing this. Or why don't I believe it.
>>77554101
The tragedy of compassion is to always have hope, even for that which you know will never come.
>>77553943
Firstly, you'll realize that when you walk into a confessional that there is a border. Why is there this border?
You are not confessing to a priest, but God. You just do it in that confessional. The priest is only there to guide you and absolve your sins through God's ministry of the church. However, you are absolved not by the priest, but the power of God, as the priest absolves you in the name of the FATHER, SON, and the HOLY GHOST.
If I show up at an anglican church and ask the priest if I can be baptised, will they do it? Or must I wait for a long time?
I'm tired of being unbaptized heathen. I believe in God and pray the Lord's prayer everyday.
>>77554596
>And the Eastern Orthodox believe that hell isn't eternal.
What about those who worship the beast?
Revelation 14:9-11
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
>>77554707
>God though having the power to be omniscient, chooses to use it selectively so as to not interfere with free will.
So, are you saying that God doesn't know what we're going to do?
That He doesn't know who will be saved and who won't?
>>77554596
All you're doing is trying to justify people being tortured for eternity. Goodness can exist without evil, but it would lose meaning to it. It would be expected. The only reason someone bench pressing 700lbs seems impressive, is because little people can do this. The reason benching 135 is mediocre, is because the majority, even those who don't exercise, can do that. What is good and what is evil is subjective. To be literal, the reason we humans have a sense of morality, is because we evolved in groups. Social aspects are hereditary. Evolving in groups
humans learned to interact, and carried these hormones and instincts along in the gene pool. What do you think that butterflies in your stomach comes from? Why do you think psycologically humans need to interact with SOMETHING.
would our lord vote to leave the eu?
>>77551977
God made Himself go through the pain simply to show how much He loved us.
>>77554596
If he's omnipotent wouldn't be he able to create a good world without evil? He's supposed to be all-powerful that he can create a square circle if he wanted to.
I mean I don't have to have a plate of rancid shit next to my steak to know that steak is good.
Also what is the logic of eternal punishment? I remember reading in the Bible something like a 1000 years is like a second to the Almighty. Why have an eternal punishment for something done for such a fleeting and non consequential time? It's like giving a death penalty for someone who accidentally bumped into you for a split second at the bus. The inconvenience and rudeness is so pointlessly brief you'd be a narcissist to want to get "even"
>>77553267
>>>77552752
>>>77552913
>Yahweh is omniscient. He knows what they would have chosen to do, regardless of how many options are presented to them. He knows a baby is going to be born, only to die of malnutrition. He knows that people would kill his son. He knows everything beforehand. He knows if someone is going to be homosexual. He knows if someone is going to kill themselves. And he will send that person to be tortured for infinity even though he knew that would happen in the first place.
Except God gave humans free will. God knows every choice you can make, it's a matter of how you choose.
>>77552465
God explained everything
>>77555134
Pretty much. Although this particular paradigm is a JW thing as far as I know.
Again, we religions usually read into the text what they want to. It's a very human book, unfortunately.
>>77554925
It helps to learn through someone with more experience on the subject, like a priest or pastor. They can humanize the text and answer these questions better than we can.
The Bible is an ancient text. Its hard to relate it to modern times by ourselves, its like reading a babylonian fable basically. Without a bible class to learn the true meaning, or attending mass, you can't fully grasp all the nuances and meanings of Christianity.
>>77552885
The Bible explains how the Jews lost their faith and believed in fake "gods". The God of today is the true God that they lost in the mess of their pantheon
>>77555106
Yes, I understand this, and I don't think there's anything wrong with going to confession. I'm just not sure why it's necessary. I could never get a good reason why I can't directly ask god for forgiveness.
>>77548070
OP is a cuck that denies reality.
>>77555289
God will know what choice you're going to make. Why give free-will if you are to restrict how you use it? Why call it free-will?
>"Yeah, you can go and copulate with someone who you are not married with. However you are to be punished if you do.
>>77554855
>Where does the Bible teach predestination?
Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Also Ephesians 1:3-11, but that's a little long to post here.
>We have free will, God allows us to do whatever we want
But how is it possible that God knows everything we will do, even if He is looking at everything from outside of time, but we still have free will?
>>77553907
People argue over anything.
Catholics and Protestants are led by massives cuckolds and jews
people born 100 years earlier have an unfair advantage for going to heaven m8
Do you have to actually believe in God to be a Christian? Do I have to believe in angels and magic?
>>77548070
>>77555505
You're confusing "restriction" with "consequence"
>>77555431
Because confession and absolution are different. God left us the priesthood and sacraments to seek absolution. We recieve the sacrament of reconciliation because it is what God left us
>>77555584
This. I pray God takes this into account on judgment day. I'm sure our shitty leaders will suffer most for it.
>>77553632
>You're implying my sensory experience doesn't correspond to real things
No, I'm implying you have 0 evidence to support the idea that you do
>>77553797
The pink unicorn you experience in your faggot dream may very well not be real. But the same can be said about any given thing you *DO* think is real.
>>77554904
Fear of death is what even motivated religion with an afterlife. Why do you think so many turned Christian? Because people liked the idea that the poor could get into an afterlife, and the wealthy would have a more difficult one. Why did they believe in a religion that has an afterlife? Because they desire to be alive. Even religions like Hinduism and Buddhism have Moksha and Nirvana. All these religions imply that they exist, even after they die in physical form.
>>77554829
People have turned away from God. God's wrath is his tolerance of what we do today, because it will lead us ultimately to the cesspool of degeneracy. Stay in the Church and see the true goodness of worship.
>>77554851
Fight against secularism and maybe that will happen. Europe is getting Islam because we have turned away from Him.
Do you have to actually believe in God to be a Christian? Do I have to believe in angels and magic?
>>77555944
>>77555390
I don't really have any questions about it though, it doesn't confuse me. But I'm certain that the way a priest would explain it to me would change nothing. It's not just Christianity but it's also with Islam or Buddhism. My mind instantly rejects the idea that there's a divinity who had to send flawed prophets to world.
I'm not rejecting the notion of God, but I'm rejecting the Abrahamic God.
>>77555134
>and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
The Bible often uses exaggeration and hyperbole to make it's point.
(There's probably better arguments against hell being eternal, but I haven't studied it much)
>>77555261
>>77555158
I don't see what you guys are talking about. I just said that some Christians believe no one will be sent to hell, and others believe some will, but that it won't last forever. I'm not trying to defend eternal damnation.
>>77553534
>Friendly reminder that atheistic totalitarian governments caused the bloodiest century of our history.
Friendly reminder this is the standard Christians compare themselves to.
And of course Hitler was a Roman Catholic in good standing right up to his death. But Himmler was excommunicated for *marrying a protestant*. Some things cannot be forgiven.
And Stalin trained for the priesthood.
Both of them products of a good Christian upbringing.
>>77555111
Why not Catholic?
>>77548070
If u want to have a heart that burns with the fire of rightousness. You use this pattern on your chest. Feel it for yourself and do as God instructed Job; Love your suffering.
>>77555861
And you have zero experience to support your claims. What are you even trying to imply? That the phone I posses in my hands isn't real? I can feel it in my hands. My nervous system tells my brain this. I can dump it in water, and the water will displace. This will tell me my phone has volume. Of course it exist. My nervous system detects it, therfore it IS real. Are you trying to imply reality itself is a sham? If I recomend you remove your tin-foil hat.
>>77555505
Because forced obedience and love is not love at all. You only get punishment if you seek it.
>>77552885
This work heavily relies on Mark S Smith view on the convergent theory of Israelite culture, though the problem is that if in fact the Israelite's were polytheistic then why did they still had other divine being both exile and post-exile material. Not to mention the Qumran text when discovered preserve many of the original texts which talked about the other divine beings. Let's not forget that if YHWH was originally a god of war why does some of the earliest material provide that YHWH is a kingly god that rules over the flood of the earth? Why in the early material YHWH is considered a sleeping god which was considered a kingly theme in Ancient Near Eastern culture. There is also no evidence that suggest that YHWH is just like a polytheistic god, you can't show that from the OT texts cause there isn't any mention of it, even the controversial Deuteronomy 32:8 never implies that.
>>77556182
You telling me "I have 0 experience to support my claims" when all I'm doing is *literally* pointing out a possibility is pretty fuckin' silly senpai.
>>77556188
Then it is not free-will. Your god is not a loving god. You only pray to him because you coerced to.
>>77556047
God, yes.
God explained the existence of Angels through the prophets, so yes.
Magic in it's concept is false, so no.
>>77556078
Hey, I'm not saying that Christianity hasn't been dangerous. I just thinking atheism has showed itself to be worse.
Also, Hitler was not religious his entire life.
>And Stalin trained for the priesthood
>Both of them products of a good Christian upbringing
So both of them killed and persecuted millions of people (including Christians) because of their Christian upbringing?
>>77548862
I was a Zeitgeist evangelist, kek. Thank God I did a terrible job at it and converted no one.
>>77556440
How do I reconcile the scientific method and known science with the existence of God?
How can I find God within myself or elsewhere?
>>77556306
Experience? That should be evidence, why my phone corrected it is beyond me. It is not a possibility if there is no proof to your claims. A possibility is something that CAN happen, not something that you're imagining. It isn't a possibility that there is a little man controlling my movements inside my brain; there is no evidence to suggest such absurd claims.
I don't really know what I believe.
Kinda find an interventionist god hard to believe and far fetched. even if a creator exists I dont see any correlation to an eternity, afterlife /continuation of the self.
Tbh I just envy community and personal support of the church but feel like attending would be lying to them and myself.
I'm not really a Christian but I'm quite sure I will convert to Christianity by the time I raise a family. I just can't quite bring myself to be so numb as to believe any of that book, but I can see it as a set of common sun worship motifs written in a monarchism form. It was just a whitened an refurbished pagan form of sun worship that fit the times of getting people obedient to the expansion of the monarchies at the time. I will say however, that it has solid influence in raising a family the proper white-man's way, because Paganism is the core of our logic. I will also say I have read the Bible and I really don't get into it unless I'm rambling on about the glory of god/jesus when I'm drunk.
>>77556380
What are you going off on?
In any country, you have free will to do anything. However, there are laws. You have free will to engage in crime, but you will likely get arrested. So, you commit a crime. You get arrested. You still have free will.
Coerced? I can't speak for everyone, but I can affirm that the reason I follow Christ is because I made the independent choice to do what I believe is humanity's true purpose and calling.
>>77556561
Could you elaborate?
I don't find atheism scientific, so I could explain deeper wherever you want
>>77548862
Thankfully I kept it quiet because the advice on /r/atheism was "just wait until you're financially stable to come out as atheist to your parents."
Now I'm financially stable and Catholic again. It was actually good advice, all things considered.
>>77556561
God cannot be proven by the means of science, because he does not exist. There isn't any evidence for his miracles, and if any miracle can be explained by the means of science, then by definition, it is not a miracle. Science doesn't need an outside force to work. The laws of chemistry work and conform to laws, nothing outside needs to control it.
>>77554204
Comstock did nothing wrong.
Columbia was a paradise before Booker fucked it up, to be perfectly honest.
The best part was that the oppressed black female turned out to be an even worse tyrant, lmao.
Then there was ghosts and the game's story got too stuck-up-its-own-butt to care about.
>>77555111
As a Catholic, I recommend you become Catholic.
Research WHY the Anglicans seceded from Rome.
>>77556825
There is no point in which a God is necessary to intervene in the history of the universe aside from the very beginning 14 billion years ago- but even then it does not necessitate the Christian God or any other.
However if you could tell me how athiesm is not scientific I'd like to know, or if you could provide any reading on this topic
>>77556113
RCIA scares me a bit. And I'm not so sure about the imacculate conception and stuff. Or the pope.
>>77554101
God gave Adam and Eve the ability to disobey. Otherwise they didn't have freewill. As you know, sin has consequences and the punishment for the first sin proved to be extremely costly. God knew they were going to do it, however, that's the reality of having choices. Naturally, God planned accordingly and that's why Jesus was eventually set to Earth as atonement. From God's perspective you might can call things predetermined. But individuals still have the choice to choose the wrong path or the right path.
>>77555190
I doubt the EU would exist in the Lord's vision
brexit a go
>>77556561
Science and faith are largely separate, although they used to go hand-in-hand in older times.
Science is us understand mathematical/provable essence of our universe, faith is understanding everything else.
>>77557038
Corruption and abuse?
I love buying Christian books at Goodwill but I need to get back into reading so I actually learn something from them. I'm about halfway through Mere Christianity and I occasionally look at the pretty pictures in this large book on the history of the Papacy I got. Weird thing is I'm not part of any church and haven't been to one in ages. I've attended almost every denomination within reach of my home though.
>>77556540
>>77556883
Not all recorded miracles can be proven by science OR the laws of probablility. Stuff as small as the verified Eucharistic miracle in Poland that actually turned partly into spinal-region muscle tissue with AB type blood has no scientific explanation.
>>77557040
The unmoved mover is probably the strongest argument for the existence of God. As far as science knows at some point something eternal had to kick start everything.
>>77556744
They are restricting your free-will. If there is punishment for doing something, then you objectively can't do it. I may be confusing what rules say you cannot do, over what someone is capable of. Your god doesn't allow free-will. He wants you to worship him. He created everyone knowing before-hand what they would do. He didn't make people do what they do, he gave them choices, but he already knew what choice they would do. You can be a moral person without religion, that calls heresy on scientific discoveries. My problem with religion, is that is is pointless to believe in it. I can be a moral person, because I am born with a sense of what is already moral. Depending on where you are, you interact with people knowing norms. Nothing created these norms.
>>77557217
Divorce and beheading your own wives was frowned upon by Catholics, actually.
http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/king-henry.html
>>77556883
Also, who said that God controls science? We believe He set the laws of science. As the creator of science, however, He is not bound by it.
>>77556825
Atheism isn't a science, it is a philosophy. Much like Confusianism.
>>77557322
I don't remember reading anything about the Anglicans beheading their wives. I know the Puritans also seperated themselves from the Anglican church because of Anglican corruption though.
>>77557038
>>77557217
King Henry VIII wanted to divorce his validly married life. He lost his previous zeal for Rome and adopted some Reformation theology to support his beliefs
>>77556883
God is outside the laws of his own creation
>>77557255
Why does something eternal have to kick-start everything? I think it is more likely that the universe is in a perpetual state of death and rebirth. Thank you for introducing me to the unmoved mover
>>77557486
>>77557326
>he set the laws of science
Your claims become meaningless when I can say ,"the Flying Spahgetti Monster set the laws of science, and therfore is not bound by it," and still have the same validity.
>>77557040
Since when do the laws of physics support atheism? Even if it does not support theism it does not support the other side.
Regardless, Science is a study of our physical world. How is came to be is a different story. I find it to be paradoxical, as matter cannot have existed forever. As I mentioned probability earlier, I may as well bring up that creation of the physical world out of nothing is paradoxical, and therefore impropable.
So is this a genuine belief in a Christian faith or just an extension of your right wing ideology?
>>77557047
If Mary had sin, then original sin would pass to Jesus. Jesus never had sin.
>>77557255
That doesn't prove YOUR god. I can say the unmoved mover supports the Flying Spahgetti Monster and still have the same effect.
>>77557288
>If there is punishment for doing something, then you objectively can't do it
There is a "punishment" for doing literally anything at all, ever.
The only meaningful difference between courses of action is the severity of the punishment and the value of the reward.
Even if the result of a choice is a net positive for you, you still suffer the punishment of not having gained the reward of another choice.
>>77557358
>>77556825
Athiesm is a rejection of any faith; this rejection being based upon the scientific method
>>77557624
Explain death and rebirth? Also, what kickstarted this cycle?
>>77557288
>>>77556744 (You)
>They are restricting your free-will. If there is punishment for doing something, then you objectively can't do it. I may be confusing what rules say you cannot do, over what someone is capable of. Your god doesn't allow free-will. He wants you to worship him. He created everyone knowing before-hand what they would do. He didn't make people do what they do, he gave them choices, but he already knew what choice they would do. You can be a moral person without religion, that calls heresy on scientific discoveries. My problem with religion, is that is is pointless to believe in it. I can be a moral person, because I am born with a sense of what is already moral. Depending on where you are, you interact with people knowing norms. Nothing created these norms.
There's nothing stopping me from committing sin. I can do it all I wantm when I get punishment, I will still have done it. .
>>77557390
King Henry VIII did
>>77557766
Atheism isn't a science. It's simply the rejection if faith. The reasons behind this do not necessarily be based on the scientific method.
>>77557643
I'm bringing up the concept of theism, not Chrisstian theism. I am a Christian, but those are two different arguments
>>77553443
A synonym is not a definition.
>>77557784
The cycle is eternal, you have to assume things have existed for eternity. By death I mean the eventual heat death of the universe(or big crunch) and rebirth I mean the beginning of a new one(a big bang supposedly).
>>77553943
Jesus said for us to confess our sins to each other.
>>77557836
>>77557760
Well I was mistaken on God not giving you freewill. We have derailed so far off I forgot what my initial argument was. Someone starts us back where we left off.
>>77557917
In that regard, how are my claims invalid?
>>77557911
If it's not based on the scientific method it is not athiesm because you do not truly disbelieve the rejected faith.
>create arbitrary "don't touch that!" Tree in the garden of Eden
>creations have the ability to disobey God, who can literally construct the meaning of "free will" on a whim
>the supreme being of all allowed evil into his garden to tempt the imperfect creatures he made into touching the arbitrary sin tree
>Create a realm of eternal suffering and torment because "you love your creations(tm)", who you gave free will to for no reason, who are forever indebted to you for reasons completely within your control
>You are the most powerful construct in the universe, and yet you allow your creations to stray off your path because "muh free will" when it is entirely within your power to decide the definition of free will
Is God the original absolute mad man, guys?
Explain yourselves
>>77557643
Not really. FSM does not have a Holy Book that has been literally prophetic (dated passages predicted events) and has been the #1 piece of literature in human history. If a divine being wanted to make Himself known he did a really good job with the Bible.
>>77557047
Why does it scare you?
>>77554100
>strong existentialist thinker
Then you should be aware that existentialism was confounded by Soren Kirkegaard, a Christian. Read his books.
>>77557948
Synonyms share the same definition. Although usage can be different. Regardless, you have not proven that hell exist. You have not proven that souls exist. Therfore it is not fact. It is a simple delusion
Why does evil exist if an all powerful God can rid the universe of it?
>>77558104
holy shit no it hasn't. source or GTFO
>>77554925
Memes. People needed something to keep them from fucking up back then, and it just kept getting used as a tool for gaining and maintaining power. Now the cycle is so deeply ingrained in us, we pass on the meme to the next generation
In this thread it's largely because /pol/ is fill of right wingers, and nothing says right wing more than some Jesus. It harkens back to the "good ol" days, and is extremely centering for a group of impressionable morons who worship their political ideology at the altar of their "god"
>>77555656
Yes.
>>77558332
My theory is that all the "Christians" ITT are roleplaying and most of them are unaware of it.
>>77558053
Anon what I was trying to say is that peoples' reasons for being an atheist are not always logical. Sometimes its emotional. It is not uncommon for one to denounce their faith, due to a tragic experience, i.e, a mother becoming an atheist for her miscarriage. Not all the time it is because of scientific reasons. My reasons for being an atheist is based on logical and scientic reasoning, but not everyone's.
>>77555862
I became a Christian because I wanted to be a better person.
>>77558344
How do I find evidence for these things?
>>77558416
Well no one wants to roleplay a Muslim for obvious reasons.
So god can effectively read my thoughts, right? He is all powerful, all knowing. Does that mean you can thought sin?
Shit this is an OCD patient's nightmare.
>>77557358
That's an insult to Confucianism. Atheism is a philosophy like Twilight is literature.
>>77558428
That's still the scientific method on the mothers part, she prayed to have a proper birth but had a miscarriage therefore the God she prayed to was absent and a rejection of faith. She used a simple experiment to find out if God was real, although not a reliable one.
But I see what you are saying.
>>77558550
These fucbois would disagree
>>77554101
All life that you see, is already done. Finished. it's merely a replay. You are seeing things.
That's why you get deja vu. What is up with deja vu?
That's why you get deja vu.
>>77557717
I became a Christian before I became right wing
If there's one true thing I'll bump on this board. It's Christian threads. They are what truly helped me become one with my faith and stopped being a stupid fucking fence sitter. I've made so many improvements to my life. Salvation is what I eye in life. I hope to live for God's mercy. God bless you all. Do your research. If something clicks, you'll know. Don't stop looking, don't let it consume you. Most of all, be modest. We are all God's creatures of earth, there's only one way for us to come together, (not a holy war because I actually believe in life being sacred), but through being able to respect everyone's sanctity to life and help one another in any way you can. Don't isolate yourself and become one of those people so disenfranchised by society you forget who you are. Love is that feeling and experience of something good coming out of you without even you having to think about it. Notice these feelings and keep them going.
>>77558645
Athiesm is not a philosophy at all. A rejection of faith is simply that, and it is dubbed athiesm.
>>77558104
The Holy Bible being the #1 piece of literature doesn't validate the existence of Yahweh. The Bible isn't even the writings of a deity. This is the same book that states the universe was created in six days, that a global flood was even possible, that planets come before the sun. It is obvious the people writting it did not have any idea on how the universe works, how can you take what thet said as scientific fact? Science is always being updated, the Holy Bible hasn't. The bible has also been edited. There used to be 16 different passages in the gospel, what to know what happened to the other 12? They were voted out. The fact that Christianity is the largest religion, doesn't mean it is right, that is a logical fallacy.
>>77558570
>Does that mean you can though sin?
I guess kinda. Think of hate. It's not really an act. It's a way of thinking.
>>77558570
I think He knows the intrusive thoughts aren't really your thoughts.
>>77558723
I'm not used to seeing posts like this on 4chan
>>77558297
I lost my links when I quit /pol/ just look it up. Even historians agree the Bible is valid and that Jesus existed.
>>77558104
It's not any more a fallacy than pointing at a fictional spaghetti deity created recently as evidence. Don't pick and choose. Bible success across humanity factually means it is tapping into a some human need for God.
>>77554596
He wants to make miracles out of dire situations. Recoveries. Miraculous occurrences.
>>77558434
You can be a better person without confroming to religion. Based on where you live, social norms differ, if you want to be a better person you can. It is pointless to go through rituals when you can do so by just being a better person. You can start with this. A good person is someone people want in their lives. Ofcourse good is subjective, you would need to understand human emotion.
>>77558976
second line meant for
>>77558787
>>77558645
>>77558869
Technically they are, speaking as a diagnosed OCDfag
For example, some of my intrusive thoughts consist of prayers to Satan. Those frighten me, so I pray several times after these thoughts, despite being an atheist.
This whole system makes no sense to me. Why does God even care if we pray? If he can't hear us surely he can read out minds, right? So he'd know when my brain broadcasts sin.
That's fucked, yo
>>77554596
Here's how I look at it.
There's gonna be a lot going on with freedom and free will. On such a big planet, there's lots of people, and different people with their free will will do stupid things.
This is what comes of freedom, and some people should just not deserve such freedom
>>77558570
The first half of Matthew 6 is basically about this.
Sin and virtue are a matter of intent more than action.
>>77554925
you just don't understand it. Christ came to save and free us from sin. do you not believe in sin? in personal evil? do you not believe that people can be dishonest, egotistical, undisciplined, weak, insincere, unchaste, impatient, hardhearted, petty, spiteful, self-indulgent, lustful?
all around us we can see the effects of these things. that's what Christ came for. and if we reject Him, we basically say that He's a liar, that there's nothing at all wrong with these things. such an admission will hang over our heads, if so.
oh, really?
>>77558764
Atheism uses philosophy. But I don't think that necessarily makes it one. >>77558645
I compared atheism to Confusianism because Confusianism is not a religion, but is treated as such. Much like the former.
>>77559183
But you realize that there can be a world with free will where no one makes evil choices, right? There could be a world where everyone just happened to make right choices.
>>77559219
Not at all. You can take issue with these traits without making them about eternal damnation.
>>77559219
>you dont understand it
I'm open minded, help me understand then.
What you're saying is that Christ tried to make the world better. Sure, I'm not disagreeing with that. He tried to make people become more moral, ethical, etc. He was a good man, but he was not divine. He was his day's philosopher.
>>77558139
Like I said, evidence is not proof. The terms have different definitions. You're just misusing the terms because you're unfamiliar with epistemology. In a courtroom, lawyers don't present proof that the accused is guilty. They provide pieces of evidence. It's up to the judge or jury to decide if the evidence amounts to proof. Do you understand the difference now? There is evidence that God exists. There is no proof that God exists. We wouldn't need faith if we had proof. Thankfully, we don't have proof, because if you still denied God even despite proof, you'd be damned.
>>77557972
Exactly. But how this matter existed in the first place makes little sense.
>>77548070
come play risk
>>>77558471
>>77556599
>possibility has anything whatsoever to do with proof
Holy shit gaytheists are real.
>>77559219
and almost the entirety of the old testament is a display of what sin can do to people. the new testament details God's coming into the world to save us from these evils.
and this Gift centers on evidence that is very hard to argue against:
http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/resurrection-evidence.htm
>>77558976
>I lost my links when I quit /pol/ just look it up. Even historians agree the Bible is valid and that Jesus existed.
Provide links or shut the fuck up. Historians agree that an individual existed around the time Jesus is said to have existed. It is known he was put to death, and was involved with the Jews. Beyond that is speculation. Absolutely no historian would say that the Bible is valid. It is actually historically inaccurate in affixing the birth date of Jesus. Quintillius only became governor after the death of Herod, who had perished well before the birth of Jesus.
>>77558262
Because we create evil ourselves and we need to deal with it.
>>77559321
I don't think there's been a single society or civilization without crime. Not one.
>>77559522
A better question should be: why does God give us the capacity for evil?
>>77548862
I didn't do anything cringy I did something that will probably send me to hell.
I was dating someone online and we were kind of exploring and he asked me one day if he thought they should be a girl. Me not knowing what was going on said "yeah i guess that'd be hot"
Long story short he's a tranny and any attempt to dissuade him of this makes me vapid and horrible to talk to. I've tried so many times. He's going through SRS soon.
>>77559074
>>>77558645
>>>77558869
>Technically they are, speaking as a diagnosed OCDfag
>For example, some of my intrusive thoughts consist of prayers to Satan. Those frighten me, so I pray several times after these thoughts, despite being an atheist.
>This whole system makes no sense to me. Why does God even care if we pray? If he can't hear us surely he can read out minds, right? So he'd know when my brain broadcasts sin.
Intrusive thoughts aren't yours because you don't want to. Intrusive thoughts go against your will.
>>77554101
>the bible teaches predestination
Get out Calvin
>>77558976
>appeal to authority fallacy
>bandwagon fallacy
Anon, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Soon it will surpass Christianity. Will this meab that since Islam is the largest religion, it will be true? The age of a religion is irrelavent. Judaism came before Christianity. Does this mean Judaism is true? Hinduism is one of the oldest religions in the world. Does this make Hinduism true? All relgions are false. The reason Christianity is so large is because of something called the Crusades and the Age of Imperialism.
>>77558787
Six days is not literal, it was Jewish cosmology. The only thing we need to understand from Genesis is original sin.
>>77559385
yes, that's what i'm saying. for me the best proof that he wasn't merely a man is simply what the available evidence says about him:
http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/resurrection-evidence.htm
these men were not liars. and what this Christ claims, no one has ever claimed. He basically says that you need *Him* in order to live. as a Christian myself, i can agree wholeheartedly that that is the case.
>>77559594
It's free will. Freedom.
We have the capacity to go out and do whatever we want.
>>77558787
Also, the flood may have not been global. If it is literal, it could have been regional.
>>77559634
But I mean they are mine..they exist in my mind, and they come from some parts of my brain. You're confusing"free will" with a "Christian consciousness"
>>77559524
But God could've created a world where everyone freely chose the right choices.
>>77559009
That's the shittiest standard of goodness that I've ever heard. I don't think you even understand what you're talking about. Impiety is evil in itself.
>>77549363
I'm protestant and I do if I'm alone, with close family or friends. Doing in front of friends was an active decision on my part, I wanted to show them that you can be thankful and religious without being overbearing. If someone did get pissed off about it it's their own fault, I just say grace quietly to myself. And I always take a moment to thank the Lord even if it's not appropriate to say grace.
>>77558723
>>77559594
He simply loves us enough to engage in free will.
I can't speak for God, though
>>77559760
Why though? That's retarded. As the other anon said, we could quite literally have a world that is both free (as defined by our all powerful god), and be devoid of evil choices.
"Free will was a mistake" - God
>>77559772
They do, but whether you MEAN to think these thoughts to blaspjeme against God is a whole different story
>>77559398
The evidence is what proves the case. If there is evidence for your god, then your god is proven. Your god isn't proven unfortunately. And since your god isn't proven, there hasn't been any evidence to prove your god. You god does not exist. Faith is meaningless, I can have faith in the Flying Spahgetti Monster, but you would gladly tell me I'm mistaken, and he is not the one true god.
(Matthew 10:34-36)
49I have come to ignite a fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!
51Do you think that I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on, five in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”
>>77559861
God can define that term from ground up. Why is there even a way to displease this guy? Why did he give us the ability? It makes 0 sense at all
>>77559910
On some deeply unconscious level intrusive thoughts are intentional. At the least they are triggered by something. I pick at my scalp when I think of hurting friends and family, but often times I don't realize how angry I really am with them
>>77559450
>not providing a proper a counter-argument
Tripfags I tell ya
>>77559863
Without evil, we cannot know good.
Also, our moral teaching is both God's love for us and a way to love God. The moral laws are both the best for society and human nature, and through his moral teaching we can truly love God by following these
>>77559385
i must go anon but do look into it. as God if you need help. He won't let you down! take care!
>>77559747
I'm not disagreeing with any of this though. I support these nice facts about Jesus but I still can't believe in God. Call me a Christian atheist if you will.
>>77560078
So, just make it all good.
I think you're not understanding me when I say God is all powerful. So powerful he created the universe and good and evil in seven fucking days. He can rightfully remove evil while maintaining good. Unless you doubt his power?
>>77559723
Then you agree that the bible is wrong. You agree that the only necessary parts of the bible are the parts that make you a better person. My point is why even be involved with that religion? You can do these things without the Bible. You are born with a sense of morality.
>>77560101
Take care.
>>77559816
I wish to run in the woods with such a Ferile Pepe.
>>77559764
You don't understand do you? It says that the water covered every mountain peak on earth. You don't have sea levels rise like that regionally.
>>77559802
What is good and what is evil is subjective.
>>77560059
>implying "It is not a possibility if there is no proof to your claims", which is a strictly false assertion in first order logic, deserves anything other than derisive dismissal
Possibility has nothing whatsoever to do with proof you drooling gaytheist.
>>77560170
>>77560170
Humanity can not truly know why God did what He did. We just face the reality of the situation at hand, because why doesn't matter.
It also won't add or detract from either of our points to continue engaging in debate on this particular topic.
>>77560391
>U cant no nuffin
Nice. The sad part is I agree. At least we're on common ground.
>>77554829
Often times I feel like, if I were to just not look at all, or not think about certain things, then stuff would start to happen.
Like God wants us to be simple-minded.
Do you get me anon?
>>77560209
Firstly, morals=God created conciousness.
Secondly, I never said the bible was wrong, I was saying that some minor facts do not matter, and that the truth (the "gist" if I'm using correct terminology) of stuff such as Adam and Eve and the fall are what truly matters.
>>77560297
Like I said, it could have easily been metaphorical.
>>77560381
Come on, Praceteom. You used to have the best arguments. Be the old Praceteom
>>77560381
What you call a possibility isn't possible based on how you prove things. It is not a possibility that god exist, because what god is said to do is impossible, and without proof.
>>77560483
Is that supposed to be a rebuttal of some sort?
Not trying to be condescending, I'm just curious
>>77560685
No, a conclusion. You've never heard that phrase before?
It's been reduced to a meme but the sentiment remains
>>77560544
>god created consciousness
There is no proof for such claims. Consciousness can and has been explained scientifically. Except those aren't minor facts. How the bible describes the creation of the universe is incorrect. I feel like how your almighty created the entire universe seems pretty relavent. The fact that how it is described is wrong...
>>77560732
Ah.
>>77560582
Oh I see, you just cherrypick what is fact and what is figurative. There is figurative language in the bible, and it is widely accepted that the wine and bread are not literally his flesh and blood. But the moment something comes up that contradicts the bible, it automatically becomes figurative, or dismissed irrelavent.
>>77560841
>wrong
Like I said, the cosmology is not the debate point
>>77548070
What are Christians' views on masturbation?
>>77560841
>>77560841
I meant conscience, oops
>>77561046
Sin of lust and onanism
>>77548070
lets just make clear:
atheism is degenerate. Christ is Lord. we don't need to argue with these people, only put them in prison until they see the light.
>>77561046
It's a serious sin.
>>77561030
Then how do you know your god is real? He says in the Bible he is the one true god, and that thou shall not worship anyone else except HIM. If the bible was correct in the creation of the universe, you undoubtedly would be using it to prove everyone else wrong. But it reality, it isn't true, no where near. How come it is now, irrelavent material?
>>77561103
Religion is for children that don't want to let go of their imaginary friend.
>>77561046
It's a selfish action in an attempt to satisfy lustful desires. A sin, basically.
