IIT we debate the various schools of Christianity
>protip: Coptic Orthodoxy is the one true path to the Kingdom of God
>>77303878
I have a question for fellow Christians. Does God just send Muslims and Jews to hell? There are Muslims and Jews who pray all day every day to God but disagree about Jesus. Are they screwed? Is there no mitigation?
>>77304304
We have no idea about who's going where. You might find a mass murderer in heaven and the holiest person you know in hell. It's not likely, but God's justice is outside of our comprehension, which is why every moral system we come up with falls before relativism.
>>77303878
Hello my brother in Christ!
You're wrong!
>>77304304
Hell doesn't fucking exist, it's a medieval concept. What Jesus said is that people who reject him will have a "second death". This means your soul will be destroyed after you die, meaning your consciousness will cease.
>>77303878
To debate one must have something to talk about.
Since religion is fantasy there is nothing of substance to debate.
The core of religion is faith. It's "It's true because I think it's true." That is fallacious irrationality.
>>77304575
doesn't that seem to make the core of our faith (the belief and acceptance of Jesus) a bit irrelevant?
>>77303878
Syriac's have a strong relationship with our Coptic brethren. Coptic's allowed my Assyrian community to use their large church for services while we were in the process of purchasing our own.
>>77304304
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
>>77304304
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus#Inculpable_ignorance
>In its statements of this doctrine, the Church expressly teaches that "it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, will not be held guilty of this in the eyes of God";[12] that "outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control";[12] and that "they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, can, by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life."[14]
>Inculpable ignorance is not a means of salvation.[27] But if by no fault of the individual ignorance cannot be overcome (if, that is, it is inculpable and invincible), it does not prevent the grace that comes from Christ, a grace that has a relationship with the Church, saving that person. Thus it is believed that God would make known to such a person before the moment of death, by either natural or supernatural means, the Catholic faith, since "without [such] faith it is impossible to please God", and this entails, for even the unbaptized, at the very least baptism of desire.
>>77305461
>Thus it is believed that God would make known to such a person before the moment of death, by either natural or supernatural means, the Catholic faith, since "without [such] faith it is impossible to please God", and this entails, for even the unbaptized, at the very least baptism of desire.
Just in case someone forgets how to read halfway through the post.
>>77304304
Theologians are all over the map about this. Unfortunately there's no way to be sure. The closest we can get is that Padre Pio once mentioned something about a devout jew who was saved.
>>77305461
So what about Muslims and Jews who know of Christianity. It seems unjust to me that God would condemn them when they worship him.
I hate this fucking pope, and one of my local Catholic places is no better than the local Jew Bastard Temple bringing in the ISIS fighters. I'm not giving any fucking money to "Catholic Charities."
But blessed be my friends and brothers in Christ.
>>77305670
I am convinced of the existence of God, and I believe that he is just. I hope that there is a redemption for righteous Jews and Muslims.
KNOW THAT YE ARE GODS
I'm about 3/4 through reading the Urantia book.
I highly suggest everybody read it.
The thought adjuster dwells within all mortal man so that his personality may live on after physical death and go on a cosmic journey of universal government, forever working towards higher and higher levels in search of the father.
Also that Jesus was actually Michael, the local universe creator-son. As the local universe creator, his most recent adventure was coming to earth (Urantia) as a mere mortal man to experience what it's like to be one of his creations.
Evidently us humans are just about the lowest level of intelligence in the local universe.
If anything, the absolute autistic level of detail of the planet's history is fucking amazing.
>>77304803
This is seventh-day adventist garbage, and is not supported by scripture. For example:
Revelations 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Also:
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
This clearly disproves the doctrine of annihilationism, the scriptures clearly state that the soul after death, whether sent to Heaven or Hell, is immortal. Those who God sends to Hell remain there for eternity.
YOUR SAVIOR WILL SUCK MY GLORIOUS COCK
>>77305777
It is tragic, but not unjust. God made it clear how He wishes to be worshiped.
>>77306465
>God made it clear how He wishes to be worshiped.
This is a great example of the logical failure inherent.
Deity = omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, singular
somehow needs to be worshiped
it defies all logic
an omni being has no needs
so that means one must believe God is limited
If God is limited then God can't be a deity. God must instead be a creature of some sort, fallible.
religion is such low-hanging fruit in terms of faulty logic...
>>77303878
ALLAH ALBAR
>>77306731
>somehow needs to be worshiped
>it defies all logic
>an omni being has no needs
He doesn't need to be worshiped for His own sake. Nobody has claimed this.
>>77306731
>needs to be worshipped
That is the problem with your reasoning. God wants to be worshiped but doesn't need it.
>>77306923
"He" doesn't need to be worshiped period
An omni deity has no needs
no needs means no desires of any kind
that means no reason to create the Earth, people, whatever
That's the problem with omni. It renders something meaningless
So you're left with limited, fallible, creature
>>77307102
>no needs means no desires of any kind
I don't need to chew gum but I'm chewing a piece right now because I feel like it.
I don't think your statement makes sense.
>>77307102
>So you're left with limited, fallible, creature
Judeo-Christianity tries to have its cake and eat it, too.
Literally.
They want to have a fallible/limited/creature God, like pagans, but then want to eat him in order to make him omni.
It's a cute trick but it's an utter failure logically.
>>77307102
>"He" doesn't need to be worshiped period
That's effectively what I said. I phrased it the way I did to be exceedingly clear that I wasn't saying "people don't need to worship Him". God has no needs
>No desires
Source: Your ass
>No reason
We were created because our ability to choose wrongly makes choosing rightly matter.
>>77303878
>Coptic Christianity
>rejected the Roman Empire when it still physically existed
>>77307102
>omnipotence means He can't do this
>>77307253
>I don't need to chew gum but I'm chewing a piece right now because I feel like it.
need, want, desire = need, want, desire
omni needs nothing
wants nothing
desires nothing
omnipotent = all-powerful
omniscient = all-knowing
omnipresent = everywhere
and all three are the same thing
just as need, desire, and want are all the same in this context
>>77307447
>omnipotence means He can't do this
yes
because it's paradoxical
omni can do nothing because it has no needs
>>77307557
Omnipotent being can be said not to "need" anything, true, but that's not the same as desires. An omnipotent being without a will isn't really a being, or omnipotent.
>>77307450
>omni wants nothing desires nothing
Citation needed.
>omnipotent = all-powerful
>omniscient = all-knowing
>omnipresent = everywhere
No they aren't. Omnipotent would presumably enable the others, but knowing everything would not automatically make you omnipotent nor omniscient.
>>77307447
>he thinks the roman empire was a good thing
fucking historically illiterate degenerate. probably a hillary supporter.
Haven't read the thread yet but we can all agree Christ is a strict pacifist, right?
>>77304304
The terms aren't important, neither is praying. What is important is the salvation of Christ.
I'm thinking of becoming muslim what do?
>>77307736
The Roman Empire enabled Christianity and civilization to rapidly spread throughout Europe.
>>77307708
>>77307729
it's a paradox
you don't get to limit a paradox to suit your fantasies
>>77307801
...Why?
Joining the people that want to destroy everything we live/stand for is just bad. They'll kill you as well.
http://pastebin.com/xMQ9wAwW
Young Earther here.
>>77307764
>See: Cleansing of the Temple
>>77307450
I don't know why you feel that all-power fullness would remove all desire.
I don't agree with you that all want is a product of need. There is artwork on my wall because I wanted it there, but I had no need for it.
Oh pls if Muslims don't go to hell than who the fuck will??
>>77307764
If strict pacifism includes going nuts one day at the temple, kicking over jew money changer tables, and yelling at them, then sure.
Jesus was truly a master at making the jews mad.
>>77307764
Read Revelation and Isaiah 63:3. Get back to me on that.
>>77307764
Turn the other cheek is more literal than that. Insults, petty violence like slaps on the cheek, etc should be ignored. Violence is legitimate when used to defend your life or the life of a person being attacked.
>>77307777
Redemption is the chance for Salvation, not Salvation itself.
>>77307942
The book of Acts kind of reads like fanfiction bullshit. The Islamic interpretation of scripture makes sense to me.
>>77307839
They only enabled and spread Christianity once it had been altered and compromised to the point that they found it suitable.
>>77307943
Based anon
>>77308012
Salvation is not based in works.
Lutheran here, obviously.
>>77307907
No it isn't. There is no reason an omnipotent being cannot have desires.
>>77307973
>I don't know why you feel that all-power fullness would remove all desire.
because you have yet to comprehend what omni means
it's a paradox that means all things simultaneously
such a being (deity) has no needs because it is everything all the time
there are no decisions to make
only limited/fallible have agency, precisely because of their limitations
Man 1: sincerely repents in jail after commit murder. Heaven.
Man 2: shot by cops. Potential to have sincerely repented. HeLl.
?
Debating senseless, man-made, obsolete fiction with logic... this post happened in Byzantium, over and over... If you want to believe, just believe. God is an act of faith, no need to be butthurt because every other religion makes just as much (non) sense.
>>77308079
Faith without works is dead. True living faith does not exist without works.
>>77308134
>There is no reason an omnipotent being cannot have desires.
if you don't understand fully what omnipotent means
conventional hare-brained thought is that it just means "really big"
that's not what it means
it means ALL
In our modern world, this image is more relevant than ever.
>>77307736
Compare how Christianity spread from Italy and Greece to how it survived in Egypt and Ethiopia.
>>77307907
It's not a "paradox" for a being that can do anything to want to do something. I don't see how you can call that a "paradox".
>>77308079
I was accosted by a group of Mormon missionaries one day out of nowhere. An interesting discussion about works vs. acts ensued. Nobody involved converted their views, but it was probably a better way than usual to spend time with door-to-door salesmen.
We all said a brief prayer together at the end and said good-bye.
>>77308138
>it is everything all the time
Christianity is not pantheistic. Omni is not even a singular word in English, it's a root.
>>77303878
The ones that wiggle rattlesnakes are the best.
>>77308270
>It's not a "paradox" for a being that can do anything to want to do something. I don't see how you can call that a "paradox".
your thinking is too limited
maybe you'll get it later
>>77303878
Worshiping the long haired jew
>>77308337
two failures to rebut noted
>>77308222
Works are the fruit of salvation, proving salvation but not being the source of it. Faith without works is dead, as the seed was planted incorrectly if there was no fruit.
>>77308361
He was a frizzy-haired shitskin
Kek.
American Christians complain about being persecuted.
I bet if they lived in Egypt they would go full Muslim in 12 months. Copt Christians know true persecution and have held the faith for 1000 fucking years.
>>77308184
Tragic. Do not assume you will have all the time in the world to repent. It's a sin to do so.
>>77308079
James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
I find it hard to understand that so-called adherents to scriptures can look over such a clear and plainly worded piece of scripture. Your belief has only come about many years later, and only by ignoring these verses.
>>77308299
I've had some interesting discussion with Mormons myself. I have my share of problems with them. Jehovah's Witnesses are also fun.
PROTIP: Jehovah's Witnesses will bow their heads if you said Jehovah, but usually refuse to pray with you. Start your prayer with "Almighty Jehovah God" and they're forced to pray with you.
>>77308494
Fair point.
Western Christians (Protestants especially) have been too sheltered for centuries, and become degenerate.
>>77308591
James is obviously not in disagreement with Paul, who says to opposite. James is not speaking of salvation, but of a proper Christian life.
>>77308208
>Debating senseless, man-made, obsolete fiction with logic... this post happened in Byzantium
before
>>77308138
I see what you mean now.
I think taking your description of omni into account it would be more accurate to describe what I think about this universe as some sort of fluctuation in the infinite power and action of God. Maybe like a cosmic burp.
I don't feel that God is an inactive, fulfilled mass of omnipotence. I do feel that he is living and changing through time.
>>77308650
Yes, they've always been guarded by their Eastern Orthodox Christian neighbors who border Islam. Oriental Orthodox have had a full taste of what Islam has to offer, and it's bitter all the way through.
>>77308856
>I do feel that he is living and changing through time.
then you do not believe in a deity
you believe in a powerful creature
also, one cannot use "he" for anything omni
omni is, by definition, singular because it is everything
he requires other creatures in order to have a logical justification for sexual difference
>>77308184
I'm an agnostic atheist but even I know all men are offered a chance to repent in front of God after they die.
>>77305934
I believe he is just as well. I believe in God but struggle with understanding Him and the afterlife. All we can do is try to lead good lives and strive to improve our world.
>>77308048
So you believe that Jesus is merely some favored 'prophet' and not God the son? I looked at Islam once but found their system of Hadiths as something that I wasn't willing to accept as the word of God.
>>77304304
Who ever doesn't put their trust in Christ will go to hell
>>77308619
I haven't met many Jehovah's Witnesses, but some of them give me the creeps. Whatever's going on in the inner circles at least your average Mormon seems to be pretty genuine.
That goes a long way in my book. I find it very off-putting when people use religion as some sort of front.
>>77308921
True, true, true.
Though Latin/HRE Catholics also did good work against the Muslims until the tide was turned in the late 18th century, although having to fight heretic dividers may have tainted the mindset a little bit.
Nothing pisses me off more in Christianity than the Protestant victimisation narrative, or the proxy-racialism of a lot of heresies.
>>77308856
>I don't feel that God is an inactive, fulfilled mass of omnipotence.
you can just as easily say "completely active"
all states are simultaneous and meaningless because they never change
>>77309145
>So you believe that Jesus is merely some favored 'prophet' and not God the son? I looked at Islam once but found their system of Hadiths as something that I wasn't willing to accept as the word of God.
It makes sense in the context they present it, and the hadith are not something you necessarily have to accept.
>>77305906
I pray for our cuck pope every night.
He has no concern for the state of the church, or the world for that matter.
Every weekend at mass during the petitions when we pray for the pope I give an especially loud "LORD HEAR OUR PRAYER".
But like you said, a Christian is a Christian
>>77309191
Makes sense, but most of my interaction with Mormons has been with missions in other countries. I assume that it's stranger outside of Utah.
>>77306808
DEO OPTIMO MAXIMO, HEATHEN
>>77309347
>especially loud "LORD HEAR OUR PRAYER".
lel that's a good one. I think I'll start doing that.
>>77309122
It's convention to use he. You are right that it is not an adequate description of him.
It's hard for me to explain to you how I feel about God's omnipotence. I believe that he exists several dimensions above us in a place where time is a meaningless measurement and that perhaps our experience in this universe is the result of some incomprehensible turbulence in God's omnipresent being.
>>77303878
>implying we care about this cuck religion
>>77309140
O don't think that's true for Catholicism but maybe this is what purgatory is about?
>>77307801
read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis
>>77309699
>It's convention to use he.
It's radically incorrect to put sexual dimorphism onto a monotheistic deity
"It" is better, although it implies limitation in English.
>>77307944
>>77308009
I didn't say he was a fucking pussy.
>>77308010
Okay, but those are tripping Jews, not the good man himself.
>>77308012
Now where did he say that?
>>77309916
I have. It was the book that led me away from Asatru.
>>77303878
People always searching for evidence of the lord, but in reality, it's fucking everywhere.
The here chance of our existence, YOUR existence, is a miracle in itself. The scarcity of life, let alone intelligence in the vastness of the Universe, is, at least to me, evidence that God is real.
Even the Atheist fucks researching life on other planets said that that alone was the most compelling piece of evidence religious people had.
Then you have the Shroud of Turin, Lourdes, the miracles of the saints, etc.
And again salvation is based upon faith. So, did you ever wonder, that perhaps Satan, the "god" of the Earth, put in place all this "evidence" proving that God isn't real? It's faith you fucking morons. Faith is proof of God's existence.
God bless my brothers and sisters in faith, and I'm praying for all of you fedora-tipping retards.
>>77308048
>fanfiction bullshit
>>77309309
Reminder: Mohammed was a man that spread Islam by the sword. He also had child brides. This is a "holy" man that you want to follow?
Before you commit yourself to this, I advise you to speak to an ex-Muslim or a non-Western Muslim to see the true side of this religion.
>>77309122
I think "he" is used to further the idea of God as the Father. He behaves in a Fatherly way, not a Motherly way. Does that make sense?
>>77309748
Leave this thread, Ahmed.
>>77308744
It isn't simply a guideline for how a Christian should live his life, Christ would not tell us to do something were it not necessary. For example in:
Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
These verses as well clearly state that Christ will reject those who have not lived a moral, as you said, proper Christian life.
>>77307801
... don't.
>>77308452
I have no complaint. My issue is that too often I see "Faith alone" used as an excuse to do nothing, or even to justify sinning.
>>77310193
It IS necessary, but it is not the salvation in itself. This in an important distinction. Sanctification is not the same as justification, it comes after. If it does not, you died before it could happen or you were never really justified.
>>77310122
>Implying i worship a shitskin
Ahmed ?
Oh this how you name the shitskin called Jesus ?
Personaly i worship the gods of my ancestors and not some jewish zombie who preach me to lick the feet of the rapefugees.
>>77310351
This clearly indicates that those you see doing it do not fully understand the scandal of the Gospel.
>>77309699
>perhaps our experience in this universe is the result of some incomprehensible turbulence in God's omnipresent being.
That sounds like your God is totally worthless to us. It's not like we would have any bearing on that "turbulence".
If we can't do anything with something then why bother believing in it? It's belief in a direction of thought that comes to nothing but wasted effort — a belief in futility without the simplicity of nihilism.
This is why all religions have something for humans to gain to justify them.
>>77309212
I believe that many Orthodox Christians would have a better view of the Catholic Church and their crusades, which I believe you were referring to so correct me if I'm wrong, had they not sacked Constantinople in the 4th Crusade. Otherwise I agree with you that Catholics admirably did not back down to Islam.
>>77310057
>Reminder: Mohammed was a man that spread Islam by the sword.
I see no problem with this.
> He also had child brides.
Christians of the same era also married young brides and waited until puberty to consumate the marriage. I see no problem with this either.
>>77310112
>He behaves in a Fatherly way, not a Motherly way. Does that make sense?
No.
It makes zero sense in the context of monotheism.
A monotheistic deity is an omni one. Omni does not have sex or gender. To have such dichotomies there must be multiple deities. This defeats both omni and mono.
>>77310621
I'm not sure what you're arguing here. God has no sex or gender. The simplest way to understand God with our feeble understanding is as a father. To further this, the masculine "he" is used.
>>77310621
>To have such dichotomies there must be multiple deities. This defeats both omni and mono.
(Multiple limited/fallible creatures, put more precisely.
There cannot be multiple deities if deity is defined by omni)
>>77309309
>It makes sense in the context they present it, and the hadith are not something you necessarily have to accept.
Haha show me one muslim debater who rejects the hadith
>>77309347
Media distortion, man. From an earlier Christian general:
>He Encourages the use of force against ISIS
http://www.businessinsider.com/pope-francis-endorses-use-of-force-against-isis-in-iraq-2014-8
>Pope Francis is against lukewarm "faith"
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-off-the-cuff-to-priests-religious-indifference-makes-god-vomit-69700/
>The Pope is misquoted often
http://www.christianpost.com/buzzvine/7-times-pope-francis-was-misquoted-132679/
>The Pope Rebukes Communist Cross
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/bolivia/11729834/Pope-rebukes-Bolivias-President-Evo-Morales-for-gift-of-crucifix-mounted-on-hammer-and-sickle.html
>>77309699
>>77309928
He is used because God has a masculine relationship with humanity. There's a reason that the Father is called the Father, and that the Church is called the Bride of Christ.
>>77309978
We aren't claiming you said that, but he clearly used force to keep the House of His Father a pure and righteous place. As Seraphim Rose said, "A harsh, polemical attitude is called for only when the non-Orthodox are trying to take away our flocks or change our teaching.…" Pacifism is discouraged in such a situation.
>>77310804
>Haha show me one muslim debater who rejects the hadith
Why do I give a fuck about what muslim debaters believe? They aren't me.
>>77310734
>God has no sex or gender.
Read the quote I responded to.
>The way to understand God in a sexually dimorphic way is as a father.
fify
Monotheism cannot have "he" for its deity. It must be "it"
>>77310883
>He is used because God has a masculine relationship with humanity.
Again, that is assigning sexual dichotomy to monotheism
fail
>>77310485
>That sounds like your God is totally worthless to us
Well receiving an afterlife is the biggest thing.
But other than that it's not that we need "get" something from God. We are created by him and our existence is the manifestation of his will.
It's not about what we gain, but that it is in line with the purpose of our creation to worship God.
>>77310358
If it is necessary, then you should stop pushing this faith alone doctrine. All it accomplishes is allowing what would otherwise be good and moral Christians to believe that they can get away with sin.
>>77310901
An unyielding and even forceful reflection of the truth, sure, but would Christ justify any of America's military actions today?
>>77311086
This, honestly. The thing I most frequently see the argument linked to is the accusation that Catholics believe that they can "earn" their way into heaven with works, which isn't true.
>>77310911
Okay, I agree that God is an "it". I'm just not sure what problem you have with referring to "it" in a way that better reveals the nature. Unless you're arguing that it/he does not behave in a Fatherly way?
>>77311086
It is necessary, but not FOR the salvation itself. You are correct, I do see this today. When people misuse doctrine, it is the fault of people, not doctrine.
>>77310429
>muh odin paganism
you neckbeards amuse me
>>77311064
Not about what we gain but we gain an afterlife
Not about what we gain but we gain whatever there is to be gained (satisfaction?) from being able to act in accordance with our purpose ("the purpose of our creation to worship God")
The promise of even partial immortality is HUGE in terms of selling religion
However, if you're saying that your deity is unaffected by our actions and imperceivable then it is worthless to us while we're alive
Things we can't perceive and interact with at all are useless, like thousands of angels on the heads of pins dancing.
>>77311187
>would Christ justify any of America's military actions today?
Most likely not, in fact you can pretty surely say absolutely not, but that doesn't mean that he was purely a pacifist either. There is a distinction between righteous use of force, and unrighteous use of force.
>>77310602
Islam is a mix of Christianity, Judaism and Arabic paganism. What draws you to it?
>>77309169
This always rubs me the wrong way. I know it's a pretty reasonable reading from Christ's words but doesn't it seem like such a fucking needy thing for God to establish?
>>77311319
>Okay, I agree that God is an "it". I'm just not sure what problem you have with referring to "it" in a way that better reveals the nature. Unless you're arguing that it/he does not behave in a Fatherly way?
you just contradicted yourself
You can't agree that God is an it and then ask me why I don't agree that it's a he (in terms of its behavior)
lol
If God is omni then there is no sexual dichotomy. That means no maleness in terms of behavior
>>77310905
islam is garbage, don't waste your time
>>77311508
it's plagiarism
>>77311485
Okay, so at what point would he support *sending* troops? Not establishing defense of the homeland, but using military force to enact change elsewhere?
>>77308591
My understanding of this is that if one is a genuine Christian that their life and actions should reflect as much. A tree shall be known by the fruit that it bears. But, conversely, God doesn't want a person to think that they are getting into heaven by their works alone. Only through the grace of God will one get the positive ending.
>>77308591
I do ask my good man, that according to the Catholic church, I must work for my salvation as opposed to faith in my salvation.
Now, I'm a nice dude who does all that I can for my fellow man. Not because I want to go to heaven and do it in the name of God but because I love my fellow man genuinely. (No faggotry)
Am I guaranteed salvation still? And would I be guaranteed if I did not help men?
Also isn't there a few verses in revelations describing how much you tithe determines how CLOSE you are to the Lord's boys in heaven?
Surely how you act in life affects your eternal life in heaven but must you act in order to even get in?
I always assumed you just lived in what would be considered a shack
>>77311527
Ahhhh, I understand your argument. You're trying to create a logical stumbling block here. An easier one would be focused on something simpler like sin. Just as complex to understand, but not as complex to explain. The reality is, human logic cannot fully understand God, so if you believe that the Bible was inspired BY him, you can take what it says as the information he finds helpful or useful to know about him.
>>77311814
I don't see why you wouldn't just do both anyway. It's not like we're trying to figure out the secret Talmudic key to become super-gods.
We're just simple farmers tending our memes and hopefully better things than memes as well.
My Catholic parish uses NRSV. What's the best Bible translation?
>>77311508
The zeal of its believers. Its rapid expansion. Its explanations of the prophets. Lots of things, really. What's most drawing me though is that when I read the Quran and the life of Mohammad I get the same feeling I did when I read the old testament as a teenager for the first time.
>>77311582
It's not plagiarism when you claim it's a part of the same overall group. What it is is fan-fiction.
>>77312009
I personally use ESV. Seems to be closest to the original text. If it's a complex issue, always have a concordance.
>>77311404
I'm not entirely sure what you are getting at. Is it the motivation to live in accordance with Christianity? I think we have agreed that an afterlife is a good motivator.
I'll list some other things that our gained through Christianity:
1. I have a sense of peace in my mind by living morally
2. I have an objective justification to live morally
3. Society benefits from people living morally.
>>77312009
I'm no expert, but KJV gives me more boners errytime than anything else.
>>77312009
Catholic here. When I pull quotes I've been using the New American Bible Revised Edition.
>>77312157
none of that has anything to do with a deity that is unknowable, existing as multi-dimensional whatever that doesn't do anything for us other than pass gas or something
I was merely trying to make logical sense from the framework provided
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/heart.htm
>So the Roman Catholic Church did not invent the flaming Sacred Heart, but rather they apparently adopted the symbology from the human sacrifices practiced by pagan sun worshippers, and the worship of Baal is sun worship.
Daily reminder that the Sacred Heart is Satanic, and symbolizes the Anti-Christ.
So homosexuals, even if sinful, are not to persecuted, right?
What keeps you a believer in 2k16 /pol/?
>>77307353
>We were created because our ability to choose wrongly makes choosing rightly matter
/thread or any argument with a non-believer who tries to put God and his reasoning in a box allowing him believe he has all the right answers.
>>77312171
KJV was written at a time where certain words were used differently than they are now. People misunderstand things because they try to interpret it with the modern usage of the words. Easy example is Isaiah 45:7. KJV has it as "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things", and use that to mean evil was created by God. The issue is that evil back then had a meaning that's largely dropped away now: misfortune. That's what the passage is actually referring to.
Go to http://reddit.com/DebateAnAtheist/ and bring something back.
How does Orthodox differ from other sects of Christianity? What are important tenants of it?
>>77312419
>Someone used a symbol once
>Now nobody can ever use that symbol for something else
Genius.
>>77311543
Its a pretty weak argument unless you automatically assumes christian values are superior there isn't any reason why one is better or worse than the other
>>77312572
>People misunderstand things because they try to interpret it with the modern usage of the words.
Don't forget the intentional translation decisions designed to push various political agendas.
>Therefore ought the woman to have a power over her head, because of the angels. (1 Cor 11:10)
what did he mean by this?
>>77312572
>The issue is that evil back then had a meaning that's largely dropped away now: misfortune. That's what the passage is actually referring to.
The creation of misfortune is evil.
But, it's all silly since one can't create an entire concept like misfortune
>>77312400
idk what to say anon. I'm more of the deist persuasion that God is not very directly involved in particular earthly events but is letting things unfold here naturally.
>>77312572
But I like the way words used to be used differently, especially by the Englishmen. If I really wanted to know what was written, I guess I'd have to learn Greek and Aramaic or whatever, and, even then, it's just a bunch of stuff bread and butter mortals wrote down. That's the whole reason we have priests and shit is to try to 'splain whatever it is that got written down to the commoners.
KJV is just kind of a page-turner for me, I guess.
>>77312874
>not very directly involved
So, your God is a creature that doesn't care much about us.
>>77312006
I guess it becomes a question when someone claims to be Christian yet there is no proof of that claim to be found. And it's also important because God doesn't want his children to have arrogant attitudes. If you keep in mind that you aren't saved by your will pr works alone, then you're less likely to have a boastful attitude. God prefers those with a humble spirit.
>>77312931
KJV was also intentionally written with a basic vocabulary to make it more marketable for the masses
>>77313032
Gotta spread the good news somehow.
Even if you crack open legal statutes, there's a big difference between the ones that spell it out clearly and the ones that are 800 pages long and impossible to define or comprehend.
>>77311632
>using military force to enact change elsewhere
I'm certainly not going to speak on Christ's behalf, but from a Christian standpoint, I can only see military intervention being justified in defense of Christians. I would support military action in the middle east if it were perhaps to alleviate the persecution of Christian minorities such as Assyrians or Copts, but for the type of war that the U.S. has been and currently is fighting, I see no justification.
>>77312944
Well as a Christian I believe that the sacrifice of Jesus suggests that God cares about that.
Other than that I think that God really wanted us to have free will and for the world to operate through the laws he gave it. Like a giant science experiment that he's observing.
Also though I do believe that prayer is sometimes answered. I don't believe that God is strictly non-interventionist, just generally so.
>>77313431
Your science experiment view and the Jesus sacrifice story are two radically opposing conceptions.
All the hedging about intervention also conflicts with the prior two conceptions.
A muddled mess.
What other sites do you browse if you want to have Christian discussion?
>>77312054
>tfw also attracted to Islam
Can I go in-between Christianity and Islam as a Sufist? :\
>>77312009
Douay–Rheims
>>77312700
>Sun worship
>not Satanic
Pick one and only one
>>77311873
I am not a member of the Catholic Church, but you do not work for your salvation as OPPOSED to faith in your salvation. Both are necessary to live a Christian life and for salvation. With regards to your question regarding the condition of your salvation without helping men, refer to my earlier post of Matthew 25 >>77310193
>>77313627
> I don't believe that God is strictly non-interventionist, just generally so.
This is how the Jesus sacrifice comes into play. I am not strict about God being non-interventionist.
Anyways, good conversation friend. I enjoyed it and it made me think about some things I haven't before considered. My sleep medication is kicking in and I'm getting off. God bless you.
>>77312009
>What's the best Bible translation?
Best in terms of what criteria/on?
>>77314121
Accuracy
>>77314207
NET.
NASB is probably the most accurate word for word but you miss out on some things because of that.
>>77313682
That's grounds for execution according to Muslims
>>77312704
Christian values are superior to islam in every way
>>77314207
>Accuracy
good luck with that since the "original" sources are themselves nothing more than politicized (highly censored/doctored) translations
accuracy with religion is a religion itself
>>77314574
>good luck with that since the "original" sources are themselves nothing more than politicized (highly censored/doctored) translations
for instance, how many of these "accurate" Bibles include the wildly popular (in the ancient world) "gnostic" texts?
>>77314457
>NET*^^ - NET Bible
o-okay
(protip alphabetize the damn list to make it easier to find this "NET" bible)
>>77313906
Thanks Anon
>>77303878
Religion fags are in denial about the reality of death, and the powers that be exploit that fear-motivated ignorance and the complex systems of irrational beliefs that spring up around them as an easy means of manipulating stupid people into doing stupid shit at great cost to their persons and to great profit to the manipulators. If you go to church three Sundays a year you are no better than a suicide bombing sandnigger.
>>77314643
Gnostic texts are super popular. Remember when some people got a hold of the dead sea scrolls and tried to release only just statistics about the text so nobody else could find out what was in them? And then some clever information theorists used even better statistics to piece the text back together?
There's probably a good reason why the elite are all into Khabala and such.
>>77314457
>is probably the most accurate word for word
One of the main problems of translation is that many words have multiple meanings. Sometimes sentences can have several words with several definitions which can make sense in context, especially since the context itself often depends quite a bit on translation choices.
"Ago" in Latin has 27 or more meanings and is one of the most commonly-used words in that language.
So, "accurate" translations need to have all of the possible sentences included. That results in quite a mess to try to read and it doesn't deal with the censorship that prevented some words and sentences from appearing at all.
>>77314771
>If you go to church three Sundays a year you are no better than a suicide bombing sandnigger.
unzips katana
>>77303878
I don't know much about Coptic orthodoxy.
What is their stance on miracles and prophecy?
>>77314495
Well not all Sufi orders are tolerated by mainstream muslims in the first place.
The Bektashi Order for example blends Islamic mysticism with elements of both Eastern Christianity and Turkic paganism.
>>77314771
>that last sentence
I'd argue muzzies are better
>>77314840
>Gnostic texts are super popular.
Which is why I've never seen any of them in any Bible I've ever seen in my life, apparently.
>>77304803
Look, another Rob Bell sheep purposefully misinterpreting Scripture to fit his personal belief system.
>>77303878
High Church Anglican here.
Pic is my church.
>>77314980
It does lead one to wonder about the process of why they decided to include some things in the Bible as canon and not others.
But I view all that as advanced studies compared to the most important bits to write down and keep in books at a time when you literally had to spend all day copying down a book by hand, and that was if you were lucky enough to be literate in the first place.
>>77314457
>no Douay-Rheims
It's a Catholic Bible specifically (includes the stuff Luther removed because it contradicted him), but it's directly translated from the Latin Vulgate.
>>77314866
>in Latin
the New Testament was originally written in Greek, not Latin, so you're catholic indoctrination is useless.
I've been flirting with this guy who's Greek Orthodox, what does this mean for me? (am atheist gril)
>>77315198
Aw fuck dude, you got ramparts on top of your church and a cemetery on the lawn? That's super-comfy. I'd stop in even if it might be technically heretical.
>>77315251
"Ago" was just used as an example of the point. Try again.
>>77315231
>It does lead one to wonder about the process of why they decided to include some things in the Bible as canon and not others.
There were political meetings to decide what to include and what to censor out.
As I recall it's how the "creeds" (like Nicene) came about. They were created at the meetings.
>>77314771
Rather it is you who is in denial of the reality of death. Your fear of God's rightful judgement for your sins has driven you into believing in eternal oblivion. There are only two options for what happens after you die; there is either nothing, or there is something. And, just as we right now are something rather than nothing, so too is death something rather than nothing. It is people like yourself, who choose to distract themselves of the reality of death by filling their lives with worldly pleasures and passions, and ignore the reality of God's judgement, who are no better than a suicide bombing sandnigger.
>>77315198
>that church
in other news, I talked to the woman at my church about RCIA and I'm gonna start in the fall. I'm pretty excited desu senpai
>>77315367
Can't speak for the Orthodox, but if you were to marry in to my family, we wouldn't hold it against you if you didn't want to participate in what we do. But we'd rather you come along and have fun and be part of the family.
It won't hurt. We promise.
>>77315367
It depends on how serious he is about his faith, and how devoted he is to his Church. I would say, if he were smart, he would do well to stay away from you, and that he should marry a Greek woman already a member of the Orthodox Church.
>>77315379
It's very old. About 1000 years. pic is the interior.
I always attend Sunday service and often just go to pray. It's very peaceful.
>>77315246
Douay–Rheims Bible Is as authentic as you can get
>>77304304
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Matthew 7:21-23 ESV
Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Acts 16:30-31 ESV
http://bible.com/59/act.16.30-31.ESV
You must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved, no exception
>>77308009
Jesus was based
>>77315047
Aren't all interpretations of the bible in order to fit a personal believe system? People just subscribe to one. Who are you to say the 7th day adventists are wrong?
If you want to pretend to believe that god ordained one interpretation to be right become a Catholic and subscribe to the papacy meme.
>>77316042
If your desire for authenticity stops with that time period, perhaps.
It's authentic for what it is: a period piece.
>>77316042
I like it a lot. As a side not, how do you pronounce it
>>77316290
some people (me) like their thees and thous. the antiquity lends an air of weight and authority to the Scripture.
>>77316290
Its the first English translation so rather where it begins
>>77316448
The "Bible" goes back further than the first translation into English.
>>77316421
>the antiquity lends an air of weight and authority to the Scripture
until you read Chaucer
>>77303878
Stop being blue pilled. Surrendering yourself to a dead jew is as delusional as you can get.
>>77316277
the 7th day adventists don't just go by the bible, they also go by their prophetess ellen white's extrabiblical revelation for a lot of their erroneous doctrine.
>>77316277
So you just assume eisegesis by default?
Logically, with any given contradicting views, one or neither of them are correct. Every teaching has a correct interpretation, and the most consistent way to find this orthodoxy is the historical-grammatical method in support of sola scriptura
I am one to say the Adventists are wrong because it is in opposition with scripture
>>77303878
Protip: They're all bullshit for cucked faggots.
>>77316010
When I was in elementary school we even had a unit on what went in to building a cathedral, how much work it was, the cost, the meaning of the architecture, how to even make a building like that not fall down, let alone how to how to stand the test of time. We even went on a field to see one in person.
It's just utterly baffling to me how some people could be so ignorant and hateful to destroy these things even if they subscribe to a different ideology. I've always been grateful for the opportunity to explore the places of worship for other people around the world.
>>77316277
The seventh day adventists originally predicted that Christ would return in 1844, and as we can all currently see that Christ has not returned, we can absolutely say that, yes, seventh day adventists are wrong. Notwithstanding that their predictions of Christ's return strictly go against Christ's word, as evidenced by:
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
So not only do seventh day adventists go against scripture when attempting to predict Christ's return, they arrogantly put themselves on a level above the angels of Heaven, and indeed, the Son Himself. So no, your idea of Christian relativism does not apply.
>>77316326
dwɛ - riːmz
>>77316622
What is this "historical-grammatical" method? And what is done upon finding contradicting verses?
>>77316978
It basically says the meaning is up to intent of the author (God) with context taken into account
This is opposed to liberal theology and requires a belief in the inerrancy of scripture, which is affirmed in 2 tim 3:16
God doesn't contradict himself therefore the understanding is flawed. I was speaking on contradiction in the context of opposing views on a single teaching.
>>77316502
English mother fucker. Do you speak it? Also I heard that Jesus the pacifist was made to calm the Jews during Vrspassian or whoever.
>>77316777
My local cathedral is in Durham City. It's about a 40 minute drive away.
Pic. It's beautiful. I have little idea how it was built, but it is a very strong building.
The acoustics are amazing. You can hear a whisper from one end to the other.
>>77303878
>>77317524
do you have a point?
>>77303878
Arian Christianity is the way
>>77308228
Omnipotence and omniscient and omnipresent all hall have different meanings.
I think it's sad we've generally abandoned the hope of God's plan on Earth simply by allowing homosexual marriage.
>>77318398
They can call it whatever they want. It's still not marriage to me.
>>77310974
A dichotomy yes but inherently sexual. Male aND female have fnctions according to their nature. The male force or shaping or creating force is conscious and has intent, the female force, the medium being changed by the male force. The give and the take.
>>77318672
what
>>77318564
The point is it's opening the door to destroy the traditional mother/father family, which is THE cornerstone of society.
>>77317977
Mein neger
>>77317977
No it isn't, and Christ himself would disagree with your doctrine of subordinationism.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
>>77318833
What don't you get? The anon was pretty straight forward
>>77318842
(((some people))) want to destroy a lot more than that.
But I agree that it's a good red flag about how precarious our situation is becoming.
>>77318842
Early liberal leaders were quite open about the destruction of the nuclear family being their intention. If I'm not mistaken, one prominent second wave feminist alleged that traditional family structures were unsafe for women and children. They don't want one concept or way of life valued over another, that's narrow mindedness according to them. Alternative lifestyles should be considered of equal value.
>>77317683
The acoustics in my home town's church are one of the things I dislike about it.
Do you have a real organ in yours? Leave it to that absolute madman Bach to crank out who knows how many white children while reforming Western music for the remainder of history in the service of God so lesser madmen and also sometimes old ladies could rock it hardcore at churches the world around the world without being anything less than perfectly holy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgDMxs4aHZU
OP enables Nestorianism. What a heretic! You can say whatever you want but when you have a "St." Theodore of Mopsuestia, you are little more than a heresy enabling dufus.
>>77319586
All we have to rely on now is nostalgia. Sad!
>>77318268
only in hare-brained incomplete thought
>>77319420
>one prominent second wave feminist alleged that traditional family structures
The extended family, which has been shown to be considerably more stable than the nuclear — but to also come with a high rate of molestation of young females by male relatives?
>>77319718
Nah dude, we rely on ourselves. My old church only had an electric organ, but watching the guy rock the bass pedals inspired me to build my own set of pedals I could play at home.
And the lady who played the bass guitar at the other services inspired me to buy a bass guitar of my own.
I'm currently listening to this with a power amp, desk, and computer I build myself, in a room I set up for acoustics, with careful and decorative things I built myself for acoustic purposes. I'm told it sounds exceptionally clear and pleasant, and I haven't even gotten around to hooking in a subwoofer yet for dat bass. Hugeass organ pipes don't mess around.
>>77319795
No. Just the nuclear family unit.
Also just like the Christians, Muslims are not a race, they're a religious group. Anyone can follow the Quran, which IS required to be Muslim, and ANYONE that does follow it is a threat to society. #ITISALLMUSLIMS
>>77306104
what gives this book its authority? It sounds intriguing but I don't want to open up another book of Mormon
satan is the guy in charge of islam
thats who they worship
its not like they just got a few things messed up
theyre worshiping satan and satans system
>>77319586
Yes. There is an organ. I don't understand how it works - it has valves, pedals and tubes. I play classical guitar.
Thanks for posting some music. I appreciate it.
Please accept some music from me in return. (it's Bach). And a pic of my town.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_oIUHRRCTM
>>77312009
I always loved the good ol RSV. kept the archaic "thou"s and whatnot for references to god, but cleaned a lot of the rest. also no liberal gender neutral language bullshit like NRSV
>>77307801
Re-evaluate your faith and ask yourself what makes Islam better than other religions.
I'm giving you honest advice because I believe you'll remain or become Christian.
>>77320174
nuclear family is highly unstable
>>77303878
All Christianity is for cucks.
>>77303878
any 'Orthodoxy'
>worshiping portraits
>kissing crockery
this is literally idol worship
>>77320689
I hear it's easy to stabilize if you lower the control rods in.
>>77320689
Isn't it the best environment in which to raise children? Better than single parent households, especially single parent mothers. Many male children raised by a single mother run into the most trouble in life. So I've read and heard.
>>77321263
>Isn't it the best environment in which to raise children?
No. The extended family beats the nuclear for stability by quite a lot.
