How do I refute this, /pol/?
>>76594087
Can someone please help me fight this meme>?
They both have the same end game if you cannot do math or open your borders. Failed states.
The only difference is the extent, they both rely on the initiation of force to redistribute wealth from one party to another.
>>76594087
"No true scotsman".
"Democratic socialism" has all the tenants of Communism, just with the predetermined outcome of success tacked on.
>>76594087
the difference is the spelling
and Bernie's policies weren't even representative of democratic socialism
I recommend looking into economic models that won't render a society stagnant and lazy.
>>76594597
This, and: If the man preachin "democratic socialism" has been known to praise communist figures and decorate his offices with communism related things, I doubt his plans for the economy are going to stray far from that path.
>>76594087
By cucking yourself to a corporation wagecuck
I know the difference, that's why I'm a communist
>>76594087
Communism is the goal of socialism.
Sanders is a literal communist pretending not to be one
Sanders saying deodorant choices cause poverty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8hAJ2IdNDE
Sanders supporting Breadlines
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJBjjP8WSbc
Sanders supporting Castro
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E14lsC4WLV0
>>76594087
neither is American
>>76594087
All Democratic Socialist nations are pussified to the max. I would sooner be enemies with the Soviets than allies with the Swedes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XgdtHewGR0
Thorough debunking. You're welcome.
in a democratic socialist country, that still doesnt guarantee that the leader that was democratically elected wont hoard the wealth to himself. and if people had guns to make sure this didnt happen, there are going to be people who use it as an opportunity to get rid of socialism all together. it would be best to have a free market society where people can volu tarily form socialist communtities separate from the state. state socialism, in all forms, is a JOKE
>>76594087
refute what? they're basically telling you to argue their position for them.
"not an argument" should do the trick
or you could mention how "democratic socialist" states like germany and sweden are collapsing under the burden caused by their brainless moral mandates.
>>76595643
5 minutes in and this is amazing.
>>76595643
This.
>>76594496
Reaganomics forced the redistribution of wealth from one party to another.
>>76596492
"Reaganomics" began with Carter
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/03/21/the-missing-link-to-the-democratic-partys-pivot-to-wall-street/
I have. Democratic Socialism is literally unsustainable, go look at Sweden, Denmark and Norway right now, they've all got terrible fertility rates, and their economies are largely stagnant. Their high qualities of life are a temporary arrangement, within one or two generations it's all going to fall apart, and they only got there in the first place through ruthless capitalism.
>>76594087
Gawwwwwwwdamn I wanna pull those stinky socks off and lick his smelly feet
>>76594087
What is being implied here, that social democracy works fine? Brazil is a social democracy.
>>76594087
You disengage. The argument has fallen to semantics, the worst form of argument.
If you must continue debating because it is imperative to save face or for some other reason, say "Those words mean a lot of things to a lot of different people. What do they mean to you?"
>>76596492
>Reaganomics
Was an invention of liberals.
Democratic socialism allows people to decide who to steal from, it's flexible.
Communism steals from everyone for the benefit of the leaders.
You should check out /leftypol/. Those guys genuinely believe in communism. They also don't believe there are differences between races, and they circlejerk all day about how /pol/ is economically illiterate.
It's bad.
>>76596840
i missed where he puts reaganomics on carter, all im seeing is "the dems betrayed the unions"
So the difference between the ultimate extension of an ideology right at the bottom of the slippery slope and the neutered, emasculated ideology that's being preached to an impressionable audience?
Thank God only 6% of people actually trust the mainstream media, could you imagine if these people were a majority?
>>76596840
Biased article with opinion-based sources. I must admit that I was pleasantly surprised that they were included.
>>76597304
Feelings aren't fact.
More importantly, neither of you refute my statement.
1.8 dollars trill what we dont have.
>>76597082
I've phrased this wrongly, I mean democratic socialism, and to be accurate Brazil is actually a mix of both.
And democratic socialism is a meme. Any country that actually tried to effectively apply it went full dictatorship. Last year our democratic socialism party literally tried a coup by allowing syndicates to vote in the parliament.
>>76594566
The differences socialism and communism are very different, as outlined here: http://www.diffen.com/difference/Communism_vs_Socialism
The "democratic" part meaning that this form of economic system would be democratically elected, as opposed to being forced unto the people.
>>76594087
Socialism is explicitly a stepping stone to communism.
>>76594087
Look into the differences between Communism and Democratic Socialism. Actually research and learn about economic theory in detail. Learn about the actual shortcomings of both theories of economics and what assumptions they are required to make about human behavior.
You only give people like this legitimacy by arguing with them poorly and via memes. Go and find the serious authoritative works on economics, learn them, then debate.
>>76595643
Holy shit
This in an ultra-mega-red-pill
>>76594087
>How do I refute this, /pol/?
I live in a democratic socialist country.
There you go.
>>76598433
So it's your fault we're like this.
>>76597963
like 150 years ago, maybe.
>>76597890
It's not murder. It's democratic murder. It's not forced upon you. The people chose it.
>>76594087
ONE IS JUST A LIGHTER SHADE OF RED
I recommend looking into the difference between the USSR and Venezuela.
Well you can't because it's a tenous and borderline ridiculous argument to throw around "commie" or shit like that. It's about as convincing as "hurr Trump's an evil fascist". Focus on Bernie's actual policies rather than name-calling and it's very easy to BTFO Bernouts.
>good without a god
Socialism is a system where workers own the means of production. To this end, both systems have the same ultimate end of abolishing private ownership of capital and placing it under worker control. The difference between Democratic Socialism and Authoritarian Marxism-Leninism are the paths they wish to follow to achieve their vision. Marxism-Leninism advocates for creating a vanguard party that violently kills the Capitalists, overthrows the existing state and creates a new one which and places production in the hands of worker-run but state-owned worker councils called "Soviets" which means council in Russian. Whereas Democratic Socialists would prefer to use the legislative process to nationalize production, as opposed to violently overthrowing the existing state.
>>76599940
I thought Socialism was system in which the state itself owns the means of productiong, as opposed to Marxism, whose ultimate goal is to abolish class and even the state.
>>76600083
and if they dont have my brand in stock, i'll just come back tomorrow!
>>76594087
Democratic Socialism in many ways resembles democratic Islam, they seek to mobilize to pass ever increasing Social legislation. It only grows, inevitably it start's to ostracize political and religious ideologies opposed to it. The legislation passed isn't intended to be reversed, it's ever increasing centralization of power which most certainly is NOT a good thing, and ontop of that Social democracies usually follow a international standard of Socialism, one that promotes open borders, as we can see in Scandanavia this is NOT working out so well.
Democratic Socialism is in the process of self destructing the nation state model, which is edging nations closer to unrest or even war.
>>76600345
The end goal of Socialism in any form is the pursuet of a bigger state, which by nature opens the door to authoritarianism.
I recommend between hangings and fire squads, which one do you prefer commie scum?
>>76594449
Race, gender, lgbtqia and open borders have nothing to do with Marxism. Marxism is materialist philosophy that advocates for the overthrow of the class which owns capital, in order to be replaced by a system in which capital is owned by the workers themselves. These are just policies advocated for by wealthy, SJW type first-wordlists who think they are Marxists, but are too economically privileged and weak to work for a violent overthrow of the Capitalists. If you look at the Soviet Union, Eastern Europe, North Korea or any Marxist country you will see that they had zero tolerance for open borders, multiculturalism, lgbtqia or any other form of cuckoldry. Multiculturalism is a feature of Capitalism because the Capitalist class wants to import cheap labor to exploit, in order to avoid paying White and Native European workers higher wages and benefits.
>>76594087
>How I refute?
Have you looked into the difference between communism and democratic socialism?
Knowing the subject material often gives you an edge in a debate.
>>76594087
I recommend looking into the applications of communizm, socialism, national socialism, and democratic socialism.
You may notice all end in the state murdering many thousands and sometimes millions of its own people, as well as extensive corruption and fuckery, but don't worry, this time it'll be different!
communist China grew faster under Deng Xiaoping than under Mao Zedong
Sweden grew faster before the democratic socialists came to power in the 70s.
whether you are a democratic socialist or a communist, the market will do a better job of creating wealth and lifting people out of poverty
>>76594087
>How do I refute this, /pol/?
"Fuck off, faggot"
Hehe nothing u can do he gotchu there desu
>>76594087
The "Communist Manifesto" by Marx literally says that the means of production should be centralized under a democratic state, at least perhaps as a transitional method.
Marx was all about democracy for his communism, it was supposed to be literally of and for the people.
Marx was also all about transitions, so a partly capitalistic state that grows increasingly socialist (e.g. by raking in more and more government functions and creating more and more government agencies) would have seemed like the communist thing to do in Marx' eyes.
It's all the same fucking bullshit.
"I detect a little communism
I can see it in the things you do.
Communism, Socialism,
Call it what you like
There's very little difference in the two.
Now ain't I right?"
t. Marty Robbins
>>76599443
that would be the death sentence burger
>>76594087
the goal of socialism is communism
- lenin
>>76594087
>communism
Literal communism = socialism.
Figurative Communism (ie Soviet Russia) = dictatorship
Democratic socialism = oxymoron
>>76594087
Ask them to fucking explain it themselves.
>>76598848
Was said not even 100 years ago fucko and the current situation in Venezuela is an example of socialism turned communism.
>state runs out of money
>complete government takeover
>>76597890
>The "democratic" part meaning that this form of economic system would be democratically elected, as opposed to being forced unto the people.
You know nothing of socialism or communism.
Read the Communist Manifesto, a democratic state is at the heart of communism.
Although Marx ideally felt that state would "naturally" disappear of its own accord.
LIKE THAT WOULD EVER FUCKING HAPPEN.
>>76600121
Socialism and Marxism are different things. Broadly speaking, Socialism is a system in which workers own the means of production, which can take many forms. There are anarchist socialists such the Anarcho-Syndicalists who believe in the abolition of the state. One example of Anarcho-Syndicalism would be Revolutionary Catalonia, a country which briefly existed during the Spanish Civil War, but was destroyed mostly by other Communist groups that were backed by the Soviet Union, who saw the existence of a successful Anarchist Socialist society as a threat to orthodox Marxist theory. Marxism on the other hand, is a theory of history which explains the development of societies as a conflict between different economic classes. This is called Dialectical Materialism. According Marxist theory, each era in history is defined by a split between different economic classes. In the Roman Republic, this was the split between the Plebians and the Patricians and in medieval times, between the Feudal lords and Serfs. According to Marx, the development of Capitalism during the industrial revolution lead to the creation of the working Proletariat and the Capital owning Bourgeoisie. Marxist theory claims the concentration of capital in the hands of the bourgeoisie through the exploitation of the workers would eventually lead to an overthrow of the Capitalists and the establishment of a Socialist system. It is important to note that not all Socialists are Marxists, certain Socialists such as Mikhail Bakunin and several anarchists disagreed with Marx's views on history and revolution.
>>76600121
I never understood the whole abolishment of the state under communism.
How the fuck are do you expect people to voluntarily give up their property and fruits of their labor? Especially when some work harder than others.
>>76600121
The Communist Manifesto explicitly prescribes a centralized state.
At least as a transitional model.
He thought that state would naturally disappear of its own accord as the people took more and more competences and powers away from it.
In reality of course, the opposite is much more likely to happen.
Socialist governments in particular have a tendency to grow larger and larger, simply because they almost never give up anything they allocate to themselves.
Pretty much the only way "the people" ever take significant powers away from governments is through violent revolution.
>>76601223
This is good too.
>>76594087
>I recommend looking into the barrel of a loaded gun
>>76595576
I like how that movie was all "racism evil, everyone is the same!" And then it ends with the nigger shooting whitey. Like whoops, jk about the equality stuff. Race war now
>>76601494
The idea is that the society is transformed on the way there , new man and all that bullshit.
It obviously didn`t work that way
>>76601494
Marx and Lenin autistically believed that once the Capitalists were overthrown, a transitional period called "The Dictatorship of the Proletariat" should exist, in which the workers form a new state that forcefully seizes the means of production from the Capitalists. Marx believed that the Dictatorship of the Proletariat would only exist for a temporary time, until the means of production were fully in worker hands, after which, Marx believed that the state would vanish and Communism would be established. Lenin himself for example, believed that the state would eventually vanish. Marx and Lenin were wrong because once you concentrate massive power into the hands of a certain group, they will never try to give it up.
>>76600699
"workers of the world unite" means "third world workers of the world unite and destroy the value of labor"
>>76594087
I am sorry. I thought you were qualified.
>>76594087
You're not even a democratic socialist, kid. You're a social democrat, and social democracy is just capitalism in denial you fucking wiener.
>>76601840
That wasn't the point of the movie at all. Holy shit you are actually retarded.
Let me spoon feed you. The point of American History X is that some white people are good and some white people are bad. Some black people are good and some black people are bad. Basically, people aren't black and white. (stupid pun but yeah)
Which I still disagree with because black culture (gang culture) is inherently more violent than its white counterpart, which can be observed by the fact that 50% of murderers are black when they're only 20% of the population.
That black kid killing the white protagonist was sort of a test to see how well the movie indoctrinated the viewers. Basically the director is saying
>you shouldn't feel any anger towards blacks because of this murder, remember that one black doctor guy in the hospital was a good!
>this is just an "isolated incident" :^)
Sounds similar to how libtards stick up for Muslims, doesn't it? While I agree with you, Race War Now, your reasoning that led you to this is flawed to shit.
One is utopic socialism the other is scientific
Both lead to poverty, mass starvation and killings, the difference is one is a bit worse
>>76604678
Demsocs are the utopian ones, right?
>>76600699
What you describe is national socialism, not marxism
>overthrow of the class which owns capital, in order to be replaced by a system in which capital is owned by the workers themselves.
>let's take away the captial from the skilled and competent just because they're well off and give it to ignorant unskilled goons
Yeah that explains why communist countries always go to shit, its no different from what Mugape did to Zimbabwe
>>76604794
yeah, they're the typical naive bourgeois college kid types who dream about social justice and equality, perfect to be manipulated by the orthodox marxists, the useful idiots as Lenin said
>>76594087
You can't refute it. There is a difference.
Communism tries to relocate control of production to workers. It is diametrically opposed to capitalism in the sense that it nationalizes or otherwise redistributes property in a way that does away with proprietorship over the instruments of production.
Democratic socialism, by contrast, attempts to redistribute wealth like communism, but does so without questioning the right of capitalists to profit. Rather, it empowers workers through the enactment of workplace and other social welfare legislation to receive a greater share of the profits, but allows capitalists to retain control over the instruments of production within that framework.
Democratic Socialism just lets people vote on how much Communism you want.
One of the best difference is how they handle crime, Marx doesnt respect propriety so it's fine alright ?
Yeah, well though luck. Marx actually consider thieves and criminals as subhumans who deserve nothing less than purge of lifetime jail because they're parasite that hinder the "greater good" of the state, it's written plain and clearly in his book
So everytime I heard the average demsoc quote/defend marx and then proceed to excuse criminals because of their "social environment" I know I'm gonna have a field day
>>76605582
And it looks like this.
Democratic socialism the monsterchild of socialism and democracy.
>>76594087
National Socialism in my opinion is simply a government that understands race and sex differences. The reason the state had so much authority was because there had been so much damage done to Germany by both the allies and the Jews, that massive changes and programs were needed to be pushed ahead ASAP. As far as I understand it, in the economy of a National Socialistic state, the capitalists are allowed freedom to operate, but not at the expense of the German worker. National Socialism IMO is the greatest form of government man has ever created. But due to the effects of globalism, our roots have become entangled with other peoples. National Socialism can not operate in a multi cultural society, as the basic premise is that the State exist for the race. It's funny how Americans demonize National socialism for muh holocaust, yet don't seem to bat an eye about the horrors of manifest destiny.
>>76605582
>Rather, it empowers workers through the enactment of workplace and other social welfare legislation to receive a greater share of the profits
That's the part that's bullshit.
It all comes out of the worker and consumer's end. It makes no difference to an employer whether he's going to pay $1000 to the worker or $800 to a worker and $200 to the government. Anyone in their right mind would take hard cash under the table over government services for the same price.
When taxes are raised, the owner marks up his products. He still profits, it's the consumer that has to pay extra into the government budget and the worker that suffers from the business being unable to compete internationally, expand and hire more.
It's the same collectivist idea, with the same drawbacks. A "social democratic" nation with public spending amounting to 40-60% of GDP is halfway to communism. Top 15 nations can last this way quite a while, but it's still harmful to the economy.
>>76607201
http://ironmarch.org/
Have a look freund.
I'm sure you'll feel mostly welcome within the ranks.
>>76594087
Democratic socialism was a term used by both bolsheviks and mensheviks as a stepping stone for the bourgeois before full blown communist proletariat revolution.
I suggest /pol/ get an old book on the revolution in Russia, this is what commies in the West want to repeat.
>>76594566
>someone tries to point out objective differences that can be found in a dictionary or encyclopedia
>HURRRRRRR LE NO TROO SGOTSMAN XDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!
Every. Fucking. Time.
>>76594087
"I recommend looking into the difference between cancer and Ebola"
>>76595513
Nice meme. That quote is always taken out of context by people like you. I have an excellent copypasta on it I found somewhere.
>>76601223
ARE YOU KIDDING ME??
>>76597082
Under Lula, millions were lifted out of poverty.
>>76594087
why look on to them I already know the difference
communism is a dystopia
democratic socialism is a utopia
both are fictional and unstable to being borderline unattainable
>>76595536
All of your "conclusions" are strawman arguments and you know it.
The first two are unrelated to your conclusions, and the third conclusion is a gross oversimplification.
He may have praised Castro's bringing healthcare and education to Cuba, but he didn't praise his authoritarianism. This is not uncommon to hear among US politicians. In fact, the US has a long history of outright dismissing or rationalizing hideous crimes against humanity in order to keep alliances with far-right regimes abroad.
>>76597963
Source?
>>76599443
Nice false equivalency.
>>76597304
how's the 9th grade goin bud?
>>76594087
signal how Bernie sanders is openly favorable about traditional socialist shitholes like nicaragua, Allende's and Cuba.
>>76594087
what a homo. the more you look the more homo things emerge
>>76599497
A less propagandistic sample would be the USSR and Yugoslavia.
>>76600846
Nice meme
>>76594087
They both entail wealth redistribution. There's literally nothing to refute, they just said "look, there are two slightly different variations of my evil ideology."
>>76594087
Difference: socialism was made up by communist as the path leading to communism from capitalism. It was democratic on name everywhere, that's what "People's Republic" mean, just like China, North Korea, Soviet Socialist-Germany, Hungarian People's Republic, etc.
>>76601188
>what is context
>>76600699
Shut up you podemos faggot arab rapechild.
>>76594087
You tell them "I don't care if you are a palestinian I will not genocide people"
>then come home and plan on /pol/ for the pinko genocide.
>>76601189
Your last point is bullshit and you know it.
>>76601267
Venezuela was authoritarian for years before the complete collapse.
>>76597963
socialism got replaced by neoconservatism as a steppng stone to communism by American Trotskeyites, such as the father of modern American Conservatism, Irving Kristol.
>>76594087
Well but there is a big difference? Communism is the Soviet Union, Democratic Socialism is the Nordic countries, Germany, France etc.
The problems with Democratic Socialism are mainly that the world-embracing tolerance and goodwill got a bit out of hand as everything was so nice people forgot that the world is actually a bit shit and full of manipulative assholes that'll take advantage without feeling like they have a duty to participate in upholding the system if you let them in, and also that people don't breed enough, but other than that it was going really nicely. Democratic socialism combined with healthy patriotism and a sense of duty towards the state would work well I think
>>76604678
Not really but ok.
>>76604918
Mugabe didn't give anything to the workers. He redistributed land to his political allies and cracked down on peasants who lived on the land he wanted.
>>76605077
Funnily enough, I've never seen a source for the widely used "useful idiots" quote.
>>76607736
You didn't explain how a country actively moves from social democracy to communism.
>>76610736
For a social state to exist it must constantly expand, to meet the constantly expanding underclass of welfare addicts. The larger state combined with more unemployed results in more crime, resulting in the state increasing again as it expands the police force to deal with the crime. The massive welfare state eventually runs out of money, as the colossal underclass continues to grow, while the tax paying upper classes that sustain the system constantly shrinks. The state eventually nationalizes the industries and runs the presses to provide enough money to feed the welfare addicts, and in the end everyone works for a failing state in a downward spiral of debt
>>76599497
One doesn't exist anymore because of social and economic collapse. The other is in the process of social and economic collapse.
Really makes you think, huh?
>>76610736
What's the democratic socialist answer to every failure of public healthcare, education, transport, social security?
More funding, taxes, regulations and obstruction of private business. That can only lead to 100% government control.
