seize the means of production
do it
now
Yes goy, give the government all your things nothing will go wrong
>>76382773
not the government, the workers. because a bunch of assembly line idiots are the most fit to run a multinational corporation
>>76382773
isn't it time for you to get beheaded, kang
let workers have all the things
less Marx and more Mises please
>>76382884
do you think the capitalist personally manages all company financial and infrastructural affairs theirself? like every other bit of labor required in a given corporation, they hire someone else to handle that.
>>76382773
Notice how Marx never criticized the money changers in the temple.
>>76382465
But I already have my own means of production. Under a free enterprise system of capitalism, private hands have the means of production, meaning you and me. As in I can grow a garden(a privately owned means of producing food) and not tell anyone.
Freedom is better.
the only way for an anarchist or communist society to succeed is for it to be taken up by a culturally homogenous society within a small territory
seizing is retarded
transition into it, if you care to
>>76383357
if you aren't employing anyone to work for a wage on your means of production (your garden in this case), it does not qualify as a private means of production. it qualifies as your personal means of production.
>>76383294
Yes he did. The bourgeois. Those who own captial
>>76383675
>if you aren't employing anyone to work for a wage on your means of production (your garden in this case), it does not qualify as a private means of production. it qualifies as your personal means of production.
It's still in private hands regardless, and being able to attach a dollar value to what I produce absolutely counts it as a means of production.
Whether or not I hire help to hay my 100 acre field with me one summer, or if another summer was dryer and produced less hay so I did it by myself doesn't matter, it doesn't change what my field is.
Freedom is still better.
>>76383179
yeah, no shit. they generally don`t hire assembly line workers for high level financial management though
>>76383675
what is in your opinion the difference between "private means of production" and "personal means of production"?
>>76382465
but why?
>>76383357
>it's only private production if you tell other people
Y tho?
>patterned distribution principles
N O T E V E N O N C E
O
T
E
V
E
N
O
N
C
E
>>76382465
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8QWWkJJjHQ
Lel yes follow the bearded jew silly goyim.
>>76383675
That's kind of like saying there's a difference between private property and persona; property. They're essentially the same shit
>>76384312
They're both still private aka the only persons who can use them are those voluntarily allowed to.
>>76383834
High finance is not the bourgeois. The bourgeois is the middle class. The financiers loan the bourgeois their money to start businesses.
The usurer doesn't own the means of production, but the people who own the means of production are indebted to the usurer. Classic Jewish trickery.
Fuck off fucking weak commie.
>waa waa I failed to achieve my objectives
>no I start supporting communism so that I can punish those who did not fail
Typical weakling
>>76384208
i didn't say it wasn't a means of production. i have no issue with the set up you have in this hypothetical garden- you work on your garden by yourself and you reap the benefits of your labor. no commie has an issue with that arrangement.
the problem arises if you were to hire someone to work on the garden and paid them less than their value created with their own labor in wages. that's the arrangement commies have problems with.
>>76382465
What production?
>>76382465
not anymore please, no more... someone nuke us now!!!
>>76385010
and what about fascism? could i not make the same argument?
>wah wah i have nothing to be proud of, i better create a society where my skin color would receive special treatment and privilege over other groups with different skin colors
not that you're necessarily a fascist. just that your strawman isn't helpful or productive.
Reminder that communism is a disease of the mind that can only be cured with a bullet to the head as we can see from this medical history photograph of finnish white guards curing captured red guard of their illness.
>>76382884
>workers
>fucking implying
I don't know about you Karl but I know fuck all about how things are produced, I think someone else should have the means of production
>>76384886
you have a complete misunderstanding of what the word bourgeois means. id recommend reading the manifesto, it explained s the definition in one of the first paragraphs.
>>76385326
Well I'm just shit posting
>>76385492
good to know.>>76385492
>>76382465
>Siezes means of production
>doesn't build anything, outsources.
>>76385157
Rare and underrated.
>what communism promises
>why it never works
Can you guys help me distill this shit down into retard level simplistic concepts pls?
>>76385786
Lazy people want to boss other people around.
>cause they don't want to do anything but be fed and jerked off and want to have no responsibility whatso ever for their own actions.
>>76385999
>>76385418
I have read it. International banking escapes Marx's criticism because high finance is exploiting the bourgeois and not the proletariat. They're a level removed from what Marx was talking about.
Yes, I acknowledge Marx criticized lending practices and financial capitalism, but he didn't directly criticize the lending practices of international bankers who lent money to kings and the like.
There's a reason why Marx used the word "bourgeoisie" when talking about what he did when it already had prior historical connotations.
>>76385999
As in what makes it backfire on the lazy tards and why they and everyone else get fucked over by it.
>>76385786
>What it promises
Freedom from the "Exploitation of the capitalists" who supposedly give the workers meager wages and poor working conditions and high price products etc. This freedom is given by making the government control everything, add regulations, have a department for everything, etc etc etc big government.
>Why it never works
Capitalism doesn't have exploitation because if any capitalism tries to exploit people, they'll get undercut by another person and immediately lose all their market share, which means in a free market where businesses can hire whatever they want and open a business wherever, prices will tend towards the lowest possible price that will give a profit.
Ie if you're selling something for 1 dollar and want to exploit the customers by raising the price to 1.25, if someone else starts selling at 1 dollar you'll never sell another pencil. Same for wages, if you pay someone 8 dollars an hour and decide to dock his pay to 7.5, they can go to another place with the same job at 8 dollars and you'll lose your workers.
Governments don't have competition. If you won't work for 7.5 dollars, you go to the gulag. If you won't pay half your income in taxes, you go to gulag.
>>76386196
you said it yourself they are just retarded and should not be anywhere near government infact they should be in prison cells.
>>76382465
but it's haaaaaaaaaaaaaard :(
>>76386265
This helps a lot. Thank you.
>>76386308
We understand that but
>you're a retard
doesn't work well for convincing people when they're being retards.
Hey Marx, how does it feel to have the equivalent of 7/11 below your home?
>L O W E N E R G Y
>O
>W
>E
>N
>E
>R
>G
>Y
>>76386673
Also, this is why Governments that are going socialist almost always have huge borders. Look at North Korea, Venezuela, Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, etc. The only way to switch governments or to have competing governmenmts is to leave the country, so they make it very difficult to do so.
>>76384208
>>76384312
You are mistaken personal property and private (which is capital). If you work on your yourself land it is fine. As soon as you hire someone to help you, you become criminal no matter what do u pay him, just the fact of hired labor makes you the criminal against humanity. It is the intrinsic property of capital to steal added value from worker and transfer it to capitalists. This is natural law which is same real as gravitation or thermodynamics laws, this is the basis of Marxism.
>>76386029
This of course is a common diversion tactic. By lumping all the Proletariat's enemies into the same category, the worst offenders, who number in the fewest and who pull the strings at the top in the shadows, become concealed behind the faces of the factory owners and local businessmen.
This is called hiding in plain sight. Marx was covering for the Rothschilds by never mentioning them and making the the middle class, historically the "bourgeoisie" who acted as intermediary between the peasants and royalty during the Middle Ages, the prime targets. Theoretically the Rothschilds and others of their ilk should be included on the hit list since they were running the show, but effectively they were not and the entrepreneurs became the "engines" of Capitalism instead.
This is the same way the Jew hides his identity amongst the native European population but can pass for one as is needed. Marx knew this strategy well.
>>76386878
Self-determination takes a pretty big hit too, right?
>If you won't work for 7.5 dollars, you go to the gulag. If you won't pay half your income in taxes, you go to gulag.
Like say the idiots who are falling for this are thinking "I'd be okay with those wages and that tax rate because the gov will be taking care of everything I need anyway" and expecting to have their choice of what job they'll be working and some variety available in the gov handouts they receive. How far off from reality would that mindset be?
>Do the job we assign you to do, or you go to the gulag.
>It's this <item> or nothing. If it doesn't suit your tastes or work the way you need it to, tough shit.
Would it be closer to that instead?
>>76386993
But the workers work can only produce value because they have acces to the means of production that i created. so it`s not stealing, the workers labour wouldn`t be worth anything without the capitalist
>>76387867
Yes, that's right, government controls the distribution of the products of labor too, which is why in the Soviet Union, they always gave people the minimum needed to live(Bread, Water, a shitty Shack usually). I remember reading somewhere that Stalin had lobster fisheries that only he and whoever he chose could eat from, lol.
>>76383179
Wouldn't the middle managers, accountants, financial managers, and other white collar workers count as bourgeoisie? Can't really remember since Marx butchered the meanings of so many existing words.
>>76382465
Yeah, so fun, dude. We fall for another of Karl's practical jokes XD (;_;).
>>76389199
fucking underrated
>>76382465
we can do that in the US
it's called starting your own company
>>76382465
What did he mean by this?
>>76388299
So:
>get educators in place who teach new generations what to think instead of how to think
>>trained idiots introduced into journalism, politics, education, etc positions
>encourage class warfare across income, race, gender, political, cultural, etc lines
>>strife created among the populace
>blame this strife on teh evil capitalist system
>>middle class painted as oppressors
>start censoring speech, directing discourse, and limiting access to historical accounts and factual information and such
>>people who know better cut off from being able to get the word out to the retards in any significant capacity
>offer new leadership that appeals to the large struggling working class who now believes themselves to be the sole victims of grave injustice at the hands of the "elite" (who's really just the middle class)
>>working class takes the bait
>exacerbate all the so-called problems to an unimaginable degree; laugh when the legion of useful idiots gets buttmad over it because they gave up all the power they had to do anything about it
>>entire nation's population successfully cucked
Is that about right?
>>76383357
fucking kek
this is /pol/'s understanding of marx
>>76388122
the means of production you control wouldn't be worth anything without the laborer
>>76386993
>labor = a crime is natural law
>somehow forgets to mention fitness of purpose in reproductive strategies, the natural capitalism as not being natural law
>>76382465
ok done
>>76382465
I'm tired. I'll do it tomorrow.
>>76382465
>ITT: people whining about COMMUNISM without having read anything by or about Marx
start here you brainwashed slaves
>>76382465
But they are all in China.
Die commie faggot.
>>76391030
or how bout you start fucking here
>>76390873
>the means of production you control wouldn't be worth anything without the laborer
yes they would. people would be willing to pay to have them. As a matter of fact, google "hammer", and see how much it's worth.
Revolution NOW
>>76391030
Lol you think I havent read it? Nigger, I went to college. The difference between you and me is I saw through the bullshit.
He only hated capitalism because he was a shit artist and poet. His butthurt became a way to punish society because they did not buy his crap.
>>76391030
>>76391164
Nein thanks, I'm White.
>>76391302
>I'm White.
Then why are you reading Mein Kampf
>>76391223
If you, as the one who controls the means of production, buy a hammer and produce with your own labor, then commodities aren't produced by alienated labor.
If you pay some other laborer to produce, then the value of the production is by their labor. The value of the commodity is its socially necessary labor time.
>>76391407
It is the true White man's Bible.
>>76388122
You got it backward. Means of production only can produce value when worker works using them, without labor they are dead objects. Labor is literally anima vitae what is start of everything. Thus workers are primary. Worker is alpha, worker is omega. This is marxism.
>>76388894
>middle managers, accountants, financial managers, and other white collar workers count as bourgeoisie?
Yes, they do.
![7148ff1dd0d6eea73374100d095b461d[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/SEGWBir.jpg "7148ff1dd0d6eea73374100d095b461d[1].jpg")
>>76391030
>>76391164
Thanks, but I'd rather to study real economic theories. Not some ookiedookie made by a pseudointellectual jew.
>>76390918
Labor itself is fine. HIRED labor is a crime. Buying labor is literally stealing this labor.
Practical application:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulak
>In May 1929, the Sovnarkom issued a decree that formalised the notion of "kulak household" (кyлaцкoe хoзяйcтвo). Any of the following defined a kulak:[3][12]
>use of hired labor
>ownership of a mill, a creamery (мacлoбoйня, butter-making rig), other processing equipment, or a complex machine with a mechanical motor
>systematic renting out of agricultural equipment or facilities
>involvement in trade, money-lending, commercial brokerage, or "other sources of non-labor income".
>>76391685
You're getting cucked if you dismiss Marx without reading Kapital. Letting some wikiquote choose your opinions for you is pretty retarded
>>76391030
sure
>>76392070
it's like 70 pages long you pig
>>76391685
Reading Capital is biggest redpill against marxism. Jew doing 120000 revolutions per minute and summoning all might of German philosophy trying to prove that white is the black and Earth is flat.
>Things that are physically possibly
>Public ownership
Pick one
>>76391812
So it's necessary that hiring labor be a crime in order to facilitate Marxism? I'm asking genuinely, because the existence of a statute in a once marixist system does not make hired labor an inherent crime as people still have agency over their person.
>>76391529
you haven't answered my question, just posted a random fact about the LTV, but w/e, im used to lefties not being able to hold an argument.
>The value of the commodity is its socially necessary labor time.
1) I'm quite familiar with the LTV
2) you agree to that a diamond that just dropped from the sky should be worth less than a diamond that was mined and cut, right?
3) you agree that a neurosurgeon ought to be paid the same amount for an 8ht shift as a cashier, right?
4) nobody knows what the NLT of a commodity is, the only way to figure that out is to use THE MARKET (compare labour time of different producers) - after you do this, the least able one doesn't receive payments according to his ability, but according to other producers on the market
>>76385786
>>76386265
Even shorter
>What it promises
Le utopia of the worker :dDDD-D
>What it does
Lol get fucked worker we're more equal :-DDDd
>>76392617
animal farm was a cia psyop
Who's /readyfortherevolution/ here?
Fight beside me brothers.
seize the filthy commies
do it
now
>>76392979
And the separatists
>>76392811
>sweden
I'm not surprised, but I am disappointed.
>>76392150
And I read it when I was 14 yo, your point?
>>76393083
And franco before he shoots him, the fucking asshole rat.
>>76392811
Yeah, no. Keep your stupid ideas to yourself.
>>76392979
I support this message.
>>76393326
>>76393279
clearly you didn't get any of it
I would have loved to kill this piece of shit.
Anyone who likes him is automatically a fag.
>>76392811
List the workplaces of Carl Marx during his entire life!
Protip: you can't. He lived off his friend's -- Engels -- father's money who was an industrialist capitalist. That's right, Karl Marx was the biggest hypocrite ever lived.
>>76392539
>So it's necessary that hiring labor be a crime in order to facilitate Marxism?
Yes, it is the intrinsic property of capital. Added value is created only by workers but is received by capital owner. Only why to avoid this collision is to own means of production and work with them thus >>76382465. Only then added value is transferred to its creator, worker. This is what Capital about.
do it babby
socialize me
>>76393629
Many rich people saw that their ways are wrong and used their money to make the world better. But just walking away will not defeat negative system you need to fight, to find ways, make research. Literally the case.
>>76393474
wow, homophobic much?
>>76393629
wow a hungarian anti-communist how surprising!
"just because our incompetent leaders couldn't run the country and blamed it on the communist ideology means communism is bad!!! Friedman save us!!!"
>>76393794
But if the exchanged value is tendered through a fungible good, then isn't that good enough? If the revenue of a company were entirely distributed to all workers evenly, then that would essentially create a Marxist company, correct? How would you justify the more skilled laborers getting the same amount as the unskilled?
>>76392617
Thanks for the input!
>>76392750
Explain?
>>76393794
Sorry about the constant questions, but I'm genuinely trying to understand your mindset.
>>76393371
Oh believe me, I did. Seeing with my own eyes the results, actually.
>>76394438
just because your shitty country didn't do it right, doesn't mean marxism doesn't work
>>76394494
Which country has done it right?
>>76394494
Yeah, mine. Also Cuba, Soviet Union, North Corea or China. Neither of those count either, right?
Hasn't been tried, right?
>>76394607
That's a cute question.
>>76394607
Yugoslavia.
HOW TO SHUT DOWN ANY 21ST CENTURY COMMIE WITH THREE QUESTIONS
1. What are the means of production at Microsoft
2. What are the means of production at a GP practice
3. What are the means of production at a law firm
BLOWN
THE
FUCK
OUT
>>76394652
Soviet Union? You mean that country that sent first spacecraft to the moon, Union that were superpower against USA, Union that kept it's people prosperous
>>76394751
yugoslavia was pretty good until everyone started murdering eachother
>>76394674
Yep. Those can be good to ask sometimes.
>>76394751
And as to >>76394935? What about that part?
>>76394373
its actual cia propaganda
>>76395460
You mentioned that. How was it propaganda? What was it trying to accomplish?
>>76394310
>If the revenue of a company were entirely distributed to all workers evenly, then that would essentially create a Marxist company, correct?
Yes. Such enterprise is called
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_cooperative
It is marxism approved and fine. Communist state is essentialy worker cooperative with the size of the country.
>How would you justify the more skilled laborers getting the same amount as the unskilled?
But it is impossible in case of the marxisim-commusim. It uses labor theory of value. Added value is equal to amount of labor put in the production. Skilled workers puts more labor (from direct work and preparation work when they obtained their skills). more work more added value more wage for them. Under communism, under capitalism of course added value goes to capitalist who pays back only living wage so amount of labor, skill, value and wage are disconnected. This is weak point of marxism because IRL labor value theory doesn't work it is the point where implementations of Marxist in economy fumbled over and over, wages and amount of labor were disconnected all the time too despite theory saying otherwise.
>>76395855
it was put out and artificially promoted by the cia with cia money to shift public opinion towards the usual muh democracy and muh ebil diktarot narrative
Let me break communism down for you.
There's a belief that the man is out to get you. He has nothing but ill will towards you, he wants you to make his slave. People r mean like that qq.
So instead, why don't we divide everything equally, everyone gets their share. Workers as a collective control the means to production, etc. Because clearly that should rid us of mean people. Workers cannot be mean. Since they cannot be mean, they should, as a collective, decide the fate of mankind.
This is completely absurd. You don't even have to address the fact that the system is easily exploitable and extremely vulnerable to corruption. The basic idea is absurd. That the working man somehow knows best -- worse yet, that working men, as a collective mob will know best.
>>76394870
Kept its people prosperous? They were in abject poverty for 60+ years until the debt finally killed your socialist country
>>76385010
epic strawman
>>76385333
>>76395923
The real reason why marxism doesn't work is that this capitalist feudalism is the natural state of humanity. The only thing marxist/communist ideas can contribute to that is stronger control of the masses.
Those who can will. There's no magical system that can "fix" things since no system works on it's own. It's managed by people. People have certain tendencies and they establish a natural pecking order. The belief that it is possible to sidestep this is stupid.
If you look at history of mankind, it's essentially barely contained chaos. Things just fall into place. Those who are clever climb to the top of that place and then improvise however they can to balance on that thin cord and to remain there.
>>76385999
nice strawman
>>76395923
What kind initiative there is then, for a more skilled worker to create more value if the wages he earns cannot be used to purchase capital? Does socialism make a presumption, that main driving factor for worker to work (and do it as efficiently as possible) is to benefit a society (or commune)?
>>76394870
>Union that kept it's people prosperous
Sure, people were trying to escape for fun, m8.
>>76394751
Did so well that is gone(?).
>>76396608
>>76389199
Damnit Venezuela.
>100,000,000 people starve
:DDD FUG WE DIDNT DO IT JUST RIGHT
>>76393629
I don't know the individual names but he worked at several journals and newspapers for years before becoming self-employed e.g. working at a library and writing desk.
>>76396221
>>76396622
This makes a lot of sense.
>>76394652
hahaha ebin meme
>>76396856
it's gone because of the capitalistic american pigs who stole our space program
>>76394935
After Tito died. In fact over a decade after he died.
>>76396894
>le epic JIDF meme
>>76396964
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOnIp69r6vg
>>76396221
>This is completely absurd.
Pretty much.
>worse yet, that working men, as a collective mob will know best.
Fun fact: La Cosa Nostra and most of those Italian mafias were initially syndicates.
>>76391030
Well, that is absolutely true, every one should read "Communist manifesto", it's not a brainwasher, I've read it and nothing happened, I'm still somehow ancap. Reading commie works is just opening your eyes (just like Mises or Rothbard works).
/pol/ is narrow minded by default. Ideological cherrypicking.
>>76385157
UGANDA BE KIDDING ME!
>>76397010
Sure. Always is someone else's fault. Don't worry, I'm used to deal with commies so that excuse is nothing new.
>>76397358
For me it was like: "Oh I get it. For this stupid ideas is that we are so fucked".
>>76397358
the commie manifesto kinda is a brainwasher tho, full of half-truths and non sequiturs.
Theatricality and deception are powerful agents to the uninitiated
>>76382465
Does stealing stationary from work count?
>19 century philosophy
>not studying 21 century economics
