What does /pol/ think of a universal basic income as a replacement for all welfare programs?
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/universal-basic-income/
where does it come from?
>>76337152
You :D
>>76337152
taxes. it would have to be a replacement for welfare programs. the idea is that it could be more efficient way to spend other people's money and make sure everyone can feed their kids
>>76337080
Switzerland just shot down UBI. Go look up their reasoning.
>>76337080
Ah yes, in this wonderful world we live in, our governments work at the peak of efficiency!
They are guaranteed to never make a single mistake.
>>76337268
>"Theoretically, if Switzerland were an island, the answer is yes. But with open borders, it's a total impossibility, especially for Switzerland, with a high living standard," he said.
"If you would offer every individual a Swiss amount of money, you would have billions of people who would try to move into Switzerland."
these are good criticisms. there also isn't enough research done to totally satisfy me that it's a great idea, but i see massive potential in it and it isn't discussed enough.
>>76337152
Instead of wasting it on special interest, you distribute the wealth among it's members.
>>76337080
I think it's too early. Maybe in a decade we will be ready for it
>>76337080
A gauranteed income is a great idea but a 'universal' basic income is mathematically and politically stupid. Why give rich people like $25K a year or whatever? Poor people in US is like %15- much cheaper to guarantee income of 48 million than 325 million.
Otherwise, great idea
>>76337478
> but a 'universal' basic income is mathematically and politically stupid.
It's to remove the bureaucracy from it
>>76337080
I would like it, if all welfare programs and minimum wage were abolished in response. But I feel like it would just be tacked on to the current welfare regime
>>76337080
You'd need a 30-50% tax on total GDP just to pay for that. It's unrealistic and dumb, something only a 12 year old could think.
>>76337478
good point, a cutoff point would likely be necessary.
the article talks about "benefit phaseout cliffs", which means that certain people earn too much to qualify for benefits but end up poorer than the people just below them that do qualify. i wonder if this would just create new cliffs
>>76337608
Still cheaper to means test and limit basic income grant to those who need it than mail a check to 325 million people, no?
It's stupid. It will fail for the same reason communism always fails: It punishes hard work and productivity and rewards laziness.
another idea i had, what if it was universal and the condition of getting the money was that you HAD to spend it? anything not spent got cycled back in to next year's money. a way to guarantee at least stimulation of the economy, the question is how much
Depends on whether or not the able bodied are required to work for it or not. Combining infrastructure programs with welfare would be ideal.
>>76337080
So.... Just more welfare. Pass
Wouldn't a negative income tax make more sense?
>>76337080
Do the math and then we can discuss it. Dont propose shit to consider if it isnt even financially feasible.
I think its a good thing as an alternative for shitty government services.
That way when the bottom-feeders of society say they're broke you can point out all the ways they squandered their gubbermint money.
>>76337080
What's the difference? I still say fuck taxes
>>76337846
>It punishes hard work and productivity and rewards laziness.
how does it punish hard work? also, it'd be somewhere around $15-20k a year - hardly a luxury. it's not like things would be easy for people who didn't want to work at all.
>>76337999
Negative income tax is a means to distribute a basic income.
>>76337775
very very very few people would not have their lives measurably improved by a free 12k a year or so
>>76337257
problem is basket ball american and futbol americans will squander they free gibs and then will demand welfare
UBI is nothing but a ponzi scheme to bankroll non-whites on the back of whites and east asians
>>76337846
>basic income = state control of the economy
liberetards everyone.
>>76337707
Communism doesn't work.
>>76337080
It'll fail for the same reason the welfare state has failed in America: demographics. Most poor people will not be able to spend that money well and they'll just exist as an underclass on welfare.
>>76337973
a replacement for welfare. read the article.
>>76337999
they talk about this as well
>>76338007
discussing ideas, son. if there were enough research to talk numbers, we would be.
>>76338037
give people a check each month totaling about $15-20k per year. they spend it on whatever they want.
taxes are inevitable, this is just a way of streamlining every welfare service into one and leaving people on their own to survive.
>>76338290
That's their problem
>>76337257
That will ensure that minorities have a shitton of kids they niglect for more income
>>76338290
those people are already there
>>76338148
>then will demand welfare
there is none though. tough shit for them. people will learn
>>76338419
>>76338479
So why should we continue to incentive that behaviour with fancy new welfare? It doesn't work.
>>76337080
>linking to discredited Nate Bronze's site
ok, let me click that hide button over there
there it is, shit I should hit post first
>>76337080
People (niggers) would find a way to starve unless we made sure they're spending it on food
>>76338222
universal basic income has literally never been tried. you can't say authoritatively that "it doesn't work". if you could, it wouldn't be a discussion.
>>76337453
That's what I think. In a decade or so it will start being necessary as mechanization takes over too many jobs. It's not about "gibmedats" or racism or the other shit /pol/ talks about, it's a simple fact that as robots replace more jobs, something needs to be done for the people who lose those jobs. We're not quite there yet but will be soon; self-driving cars alone will get rid of a ton of jobs soon
>>76338454
the whole reason you'd switch to UBI is to get rid of the welfare program that gives people money for kids. they wouldnt get any more income for having more kids.
The moment the government gives me free money for simply existing is the moment I start only leaving my basement once a month to buy bulk foodstuffs
Why the fuck would I work a job just to have most of the income taxed to be redistributed to niggers? AT MOST I would get a part time job every now and then to buy something like a new computer or something to entertain me.
>>76338148
>problem is basket ball american and futbol americans will squander they free gibs and then will demand welfare
Anyone that starves because they spent all their free money on stupid shit deserves it.
We would need border controls that would have Trump saying "woah, hold on guys isn't this a bit extreme?"
but it would be a tremendous boost to our economy and quality of life, in addition to getting rid of a great deal of pointless bureaucracy.
>>76338564
because it helps the people that aren't on welfare?
>>76337846
those aren't the reasons communism failed.
>>76338564
> basic income
> welfare
two different things
I support this and a lot of other socialist problems and make no bones about it. I wouldn't give it a vote or write a letter to a legislator about it, though, until
>Our immigration system, citizenship requirements, and other similar measures are put into place to ensure only Americans receive it; a constitutional amendment is made to declare that this becomes the role of the government; a second constitutional amendment to require a balanced budget
>If we're giving it to everyone, I don't want it.
>Nowhere in the constitution does it sat that the role of the government is to do a majority of what it does
>If we're going to do it, we have to afford it.
>>76338651
> basic income
> communism
not the same thing
>>76338934
We shouldn't have it in the first place. Honestly with UBI, poor people will probably starve because they can't manage money.
>>76339060
It's basically welfare for everyone.
It won't work out at all. Sorry liberals, for spoiling your ideal world.
>>76339248
how the fuck is giving everyone a free money each month the same as a government or workers controlling the means of labor and setting quotes and prices
>>76339201
I am in fact a newfag who does not know how to greentext
>>76338530
>niggers
>learning
lol
>>76338662
If millions of migrants flood your country, it will be impossible because of pure hard mathematics.
>>76337080
I don't really like the thought of just giving people money, but if you're gonna do it might as do it for everyone. Would really need to rethink our immigration and border policies, even more than Trump is doing if people were serious about implementing it.
I think it's better than letting certain groups breed for a living, that's for sure.
>>76339264
>projection
>if i'm lazy, everyone else must be too
>>76339446
more white people on welfare than minorities etc etc
>>76339571
>what is proportion
>>76339248
Ya and fucking a 16 y/o isn't pedophilia.
>>76337080
In comparison to the current welfare state we have is the key word
Yes it is better than that but that's like saying 3rd degree burns are better than getting shot in the dick.
Both are fundamentally bad and cancerous.
>>76337080
>as a replacement for all welfare programs
good luck getting that to pass
>>76338782
If I read you correctly, you will do just fine.
>>76339682
>what is irrelevant to the discussion at hand
>>76338868
> basic income
> welfare
different things
>>76338530
>implying you can give the liberals a cookie and then just ignore their non-stop demands for milk forever.
they never stop. they never are satisfied.
>>76339264
>It's the poor people are poor because they can't manage money fallacy
Nah m8, there are a multitude of ways to slip through the cracks in society and end up in poverty.
I put it to you that most poor people are poor because they are unemployed or underemployed. I will grant you that *some* people are terrible at managing money and that is why they are poor, but that it is not the majority.
>>76338782
then enjoy the fruits of the work and sacrifice of your ancestors. i don't judge you for it, as thats what they worked for
course one day you'll want to build or create something. UBI also takes away the largest risk of entrepreneuring, losing everything in a failed venture
>>76340104
>ambition will magically appear
No, lazy unschooled idiots I'll remain lazy unschooled idiots.
Also being a selfish prick to future generations is rude. You're more greedy than the boomers.
>>76340072
I would contest that. Too many people buy dumb shit that they don't need and squander their money instead of saving and investing it.
Hard to say if the majority of people that are poor and living paycheck to paycheck spend their money entirely on necessities with prudent entertainment and luxury purchases.
I'd be interested to see some unbiased, hard data on this at least.
>>76338564
You know Timmy, when people belly rumbles, you know, what happens to you when you skip lunch, those people get very angry. And they could be mean to you. Really mean. You understand, little Timmy?
>>76338200
Lol pretty much all libertarian thinkers like Mises, Friedman et al support a basic income or negative income tax.
Fact is, if done properly it could be more effective than current welfare programs while costing us less by axing the bureaucracies.
>>76339264
pension = welfare ; are you against that
>>76339326
Really, liberals promote this ?
According to this image we'd have $2,206,203 million dollars from Social Security, Income Security, Medicare, and Health. Spread across an estimated adult population (for 2014) of 245 million adults (https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/table/PST045215/00) gives us $9004 per adult. A bit underwhelming to be quite honest familia.
>>76340104
>UBI also takes away the largest risk of entrepreneuring, losing everything in a failed venture
it takes the risk away but it makes the possibility of doing so available to wayyy more people
>>76339385
It's not
>>76338769
So you're going to let people starve?!
>>76337478
The reasoning is it is
1)universal, meaning the rich have just as much right to it as the poor
2)The rich will pay it back in income and consumption tax anyway
3)It eliminates welfare traps because you still get it no matter what you earn, encouraging low income people to go out and work
4)It is cheaper to administer
>>76337152
the computer that the jews control.
>>76340445
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_pilots
ambition does not appear out of thin air true. but there are many who can't afford to take risks
all i'm hearing you spout is projection. niggers don't work now. they won't work under this system
>>76340679
just means you'll have to work harder to get above your competition. which means better product or service
its going to happen eventually
the singularity is just around the corner
>>76337846
>Punishes hard work
The rich are entitled to the basic income as well.
>>76338399
>this is just a way of streamlining every welfare service into one and leaving people on their own to survive.
Yeah that's what you think will happen. Its like giving a homeless drug addict money. You tell him you gave him that money to feed himself but he's just going back to the crack house down the street in 2 hours.
>>76339691
What is communism?
>>76340898
you are the one projecting a magical desire to work when someone can live a neet life
>>76337080
You're eventually going to run out of other people's money
>>76338782
people voluntarily leaving the workplace will do any of the following
>they become neets
>they become self employed
>they focus on arts/writing whatever
>they support a degenerate social life
>they become a stay at home parent
regardless it will raise wages for people who continue working
>>76339691
Not if you're 16
>>76339449
I agree. Strict border control or making the UBI contingent on citizenship is necessary to make sure the hordes don't fuck the system.
>>76341048
you're making the assumption that people like being NEETs. have you ever been to /r9k/?
>>76341102
Like the banks in '08?
>>76341181
Do you enjoy working?
It might work in a homogenous country of 2 million people even then it still probably won.
>>76340676
So it would pretty much equate to supplemental income for most people. Most people would still need to work at least part time or find some additional source of revenue.
Why do we need welfare or basic income?
Fuck people who don't make money.
>>76341159
Call me a racist.
I was rather skeptical of the concept, it sounded like communism except there is a glass floor and no glass roof.
But in the context of the western welfare states it makes some sense, nut not enough sense.
The big fat problem is that it ties the hands of the government by making it a 'right' to get money.
It's no longer money for being blind or having no legs or for being 70+ years old.
It's no longer 'money until you get a job" or "money for the kids" or "money for veterans".
It makes a whole lot of people who aren't equally disadvantaged get the same money to get by, and that's not even socialism, that's bullshit.
>>76337080
I completely support it because it finites the exploitability of numerous granular welfare programs.
It also removes the overhead of recipient determination/evaluation.
>>76341299
What as size and demographics got to do with it?
>>76338056
This is literally my dream.
>>76340452
Absolutely agree. I only have anecdotal evidence to support my view but I would love to see cross sectional studies run on people's spending habits.
>>76340830
im saying, you stop incentivizing people to have kids, maybe they dont have as many kids. if a parent lets their kid starve, their child (hopefully) gets taken by CPS. if a fully grown adult staves because they spend their free money on dumb shit over food, that's nobody's fault but their own. it also isnt going to happen - im pretty sure people will buy and eat food.
>>76341273
yes. i like seeing something i plan and coordinate come to fruition.
and even if i'm not in charge, i enjoy working with people who like to create.
i understand my attitude is rare. but there you go
>>76337080
Fuck UBI fuck Welfare and fuck OP too
>>76341102
capitalism can't sustain itself once the singularity arrives simply because everyone would be out of work
the market would still exist of course, it will just be heavily regulated so the basic income is enough for the bread and circuses that the population requires.
anything specialty like high priced furniture and cars and other luxurys etc would be free reign for the market to both inflate and speculate on
currencies will be balanced by the value of the basic income
>>76337080
It won't work because of immigrants :)
Thanks Merkel
>>76341381
Not at all. I call you a realist or a pragmatist or a nationalist.
>>76341546
This is literally the argument from communism.
If you do underqualified work, you deserve underqualified pay. My taxes should go to people who want to improve society, fuck the people who can't properly coordinate themselves to achieve the skills necessary to be a vital member to society. Leeching cunts.
Ron Paul 2016.
>>76337257
How about the government stops taking half of my money to support other people's fuckup poorfag criminal offspring and they let me use my own money to raise my own kids?
>>76341474
> i like seeing something i plan and coordinate come to fruition.
Me too. But do you actually enjoy working 10 hours a day for 5 days a week for a fucker that got in his position because his father owned the company?
>i understand my attitude is rare.
No it's not you precious snowflake. Everyone has your attitude.
My question again: Do you actually enjoy working?
>Implying this won't be drastically more expensive than welfare
>>76340521
Pic>>76340524
>Mises Friedman et al support a basic income or negative income tax.
They only"supported" it as a way to remove a much more corrupting system but every one opposed it fundamentally.
It was a kind of fuck you to lefty faggots showing that they could think of better ways to run lefty ideas than leftist could but the ideas are still fundamentally fucked.
>>76337080
I'd love that 'cause I can continue being a neet.
If you think basic income equals communism, you're wrong.
It's just a matter of time. And time is running rather quickly these days...
>>76340830
>If government doesn't do it that means you don't want it done fallacy
Stop you're embarrassing yourself
>>76341733
as for your example, they would have to treat me well. because i am no longer dependent on them to live they cannot leverage it against me.
yes i do. and i will continue to say 'yes i like to work' no matter how many times you reword the question Pedro
>>76341757
>every one opposed it fundamentally.
Not really. Almost all economists agree that people dying in the streets from starvation is bad for everyone.
>>76341367
Ok, I will.
>>76341850
you mountain kikes voted against it, and for good reason
you're not rich enough to afford it
>>76337080
Maybe if it's in the form of a nutritious gruel. Everybody gets a free 28,000 calories of gruel every two weeks, then nobody can complain about people starving in the streets
>>76342111
its logistically easier to load a card electronically with money than to distribute food
>>76341467
We need to be much stricter with CPS. We should have large institutions for raising kids whos parents were to stupid to raise them well. Maybe all the single mother nigger kids could actually have a good future if they were raised in a government institution instead of the ghetto.
But niggers only have so many kids now because the government gives single mothers tons of money. They pump out kids then live off the state. If that wasn't an option and they actually had to pay more to have a kid, none of them would be making babies.
>>76337080
All the hard work I've done to get a solid degree and job, and I'd have to watch my lazy peers be raised up to my level?
All the carefree recreation I sacrificed during my youth because I was told it was the only way to not be poor, and the people who've already had their fun would get to have their cake and eat it too?
Fuck that.
>>76341757
I oppose it ideology. It hurts me to think NEETS and bums and drug addicts will get free money. But with automation kicking in, you either give the obsolete workers money, or, well, socilaist revolution comes.
And universal basic income is in no way a socialist/communist idea. It's a capitalist one. It will be essential to the existence of capitalism
Once you have a house payed off and no debt at all, you should easily be able to survive on 20k a year. I could survive on 1k a month once my mortgage is gone. Why would people continue to work after they get to that point if basic income far exceeds the money needed to live comfortably?
>>76342339
i wasn't aware that changing how the taxes you already pay are spent would take away all that experience and your degree as well
>>76342356
i'm sure people will just starve quietly in the streets and not bother anyone /s
>>76342045
>Almost all economists agree that people dying in the streets from starvation is bad for everyone.
Which is why they were heavy proponents of voluntary charity which has always been much more efficient in helping people that actually need help when they needed it and part of charity is to actually tell the lazy fucks to get off their ass and work instead of being leeches.
Welfarism isn't that.
>>76337080
it's going to be a necessity with further increases in automation and AI increasing worker productivity. This is coming from a CS/ML student, btw.
>>76337846
communism is worker control of the means of production, pls learn meanings of words before you use them online
>>76342096
>you mountain kikes voted against it, and for good reason
So far so good.
>you're not rich enough to afford it
Nonsense.
Also you don't seem to understand that failed initiatives aren't a failure of a political movement/force whatsoever. Lots of failed initiatives had great impact nonetheless. Others have been reformulated, tried again until it got approved.
Direct democracy is a slow but steady process, not really driven by opposition but by collegiality.
>>76341689
except communism relied on the people as the labourforce, the machines will be doing all the work so you'll be free to masturbate and paint and go to mcdonalds and purchase burger with your base wage from the robots that made it
>>76337478
At $25K/year for 48 million people that's 1.2 Trillion dollars. Do you think we can afford that?
>>76341940
> they would have to treat me well. because i am no longer dependent on them to live they cannot leverage it against me.
The thing is jobs are startinbg to disapear. Competition for the few jobs left will be brutal.
>no matter how many times you reword the question
I didn't reword my question. You probably understood wrong. I asked if you actually enjoy working 40hours+ per week, not if you enjoy not being a loser neet.
>>76342466
there are people who are too proud to ask for help
>>76342275
Just pay supermarkets to do it then. It'll make up some of the revenue lost in food sales at least
>>76342356
>But with automation kicking in, you either give the obsolete workers money,
Nah
These arguments were made several times in history when very very large swaths of the population"lost" their jobs due to technological advancement.
Identical arguments in fact.
They were needless to say dead wrong.
I'm okay with it as long as it's something like you get your 20k or whatever a year, and that's it. No healthcare, no child leave bullshit, no food stamps, etc.
And this is under the condition that human labor has been rendered obsolete, in which case production costs would be extremely low. So you wouldn't need much.
>>76337080
UBI is a cop out. We should focus our efforts on individual self-sufficiency and cheaper goods.
I can't wait to quit my job and share a crack shack with 10 other gross brony NEETS fapping to hentai during all our waking hours.
>>76342356
>And universal basic income is in no way a socialist/communist idea. It's a capitalist one. It will be essential to the existence of capitalism
I agree lefty. I think if you gave everyone 10k a year and let them buy what they want is pretty capitalistic. Maybe not entirely free market, but the idea belongs more to capitalists than socialists. But, and this is big; if people use that money on luxury items and don't look to their future, then they need to be held accountable for it. No tears in the media from people who mismanaged their money and now expect more. I see society caving to emotion.
>>76342641
>let's increase the monopoly walmart has on retail and put more mom and pop stores out of business
disgusting
>>76341382
Strong argument. Unfortunately thread will die soon.
>>76337080
it's better than what we've got now, but can't trust a lib president and congress to do it properly.
>>76342638
>there are people who are too proud to ask for help
And that is their own volition to suffer their personally decided fate.
Who are you to impos your will upon them by forcing them to take other people's money like you are some kind of parent?
>>76342616
i enjoy working as long as necessary to complete the task. downtime kills me
more businesses would sprout up. wages could be lowered. and most importantly, the only people working are that ones that want to be there
>>76342488
>except communism relied on the people as the labourforce
Wat? Go read what communism is first.
>relied on the people as the labourforce
And only communism relied on people because?
>>76341725
go back Harper
>>76338290
Can confirm. I know a guy that is part native American and lives on a Rancheria with a casino. He receives a dividend check every month. He spends/wastes it all on the stupidest shit you can imagine, and still lives in squalor in spite of the gibs.
>>76342749
But why do that when everyone can be dependent on those who produce and we can tax and print money to pay for artificially high priced good?
>>76337080
I hope it kicks in soon, I don't want to be a wageslave anymore. I have no disabilities or handicaps I can get bennies with, UBI is my only hope to become a NEET forever.
>>76342756
>I think if you gave everyone 10k a year and let them buy what they want is pretty capitalistic.
>Gave
That isn't how government works
>>76342669
>These arguments were made several times in history
Not exactly. But throught history jobs were REPLACED by other jobs. Nowadays they will be replaced by machines, wich the human being will not be able to compete.
>They were needless to say dead wrong.
They weren't. Mechanization of farming pushed millions of faremers to horrible factory jobs. Just because it ended up better (with the introduction of regulations and welfare) doesn't mean they were dead wrong.
>>76341757
>birds = people
>>76343045
capitalism wouldn't work if we didn't skim the top off the rich. even they will admit they need a healthy lower and middle class to remain in their cushy circumstance, and its cheaper and safer to feed and entertain them than to enslave them
Stupid here, skimmed through the thread so I might have missed it, when you talk about the cost of welfare are you including wages and offices of the papershufflers?
>>76341474
I was going to say (ironIcaly) you are an idiot, but let's face it, it's fun to do stuff.
>>76338530
I live in one of the worst Welfare States in Europe, a country, while not having UBI, you can live in without working easily and have been able to do so for years as long as you live cheap. People don't fucking learn, and always want more though, always. People are greedy fucks and when you add that the laziness of your average nigger, spic or paki you get a bad mix. Honestly I don't like UBI for obvious reasons but if it was a choice between UBI and All Other Welfare, assuming taxes do not rise and all Welfare is just turned into UBI, I'd rather be getting some UBI myself than not.
>>76343212
no, which is the greatest argument for it. putting corrupt officials who vote to raise their own pensions out of a job
>>76342669
We're not talking about the displacement of cotton weavers here bud, we're talking about the large scale automation of white collar knowledge work.
>>76343045
For the record, I don't agree with it, but it's more fair than the system we have now. Plus, it lets people use their money how they want.
Do I want to see self sufficiency and personal responsibility above all else? Of course, but I still think that the idea is more in the capitalist camp than the socialist one. People are still free to have a job at varying rates and create private businesses.
>>76343418
with UBI in place we can abolish the minimum wage as well
makes me wonder what would happen to the tipping culture we have here
>>76342339
Americans often exhibit this radical form of individualism. The general idea that you have to put people in a situation where they have to succeed or they are fucked. And you americans believe this will make people work harder and go further. You always point to the few that crawl out of the gutter and rise above their origin and claim - "see it works".
But the reality is the average person can't and will not do that, and those you put on pedestals are either lucky or exceptions - neither is the proof of a successful model.
But to the point, welfare, benefits, BUI and all this shit does not exist to make everybody equal and does not make people lazy. They are tools to fight radical inequality.
Why should you care for radical inequality, the hard working, "I've suffered for everything", independent you?
Because you have to live in the same country as those people and them falling deeper and deeper into the void of poverty and depravity WILL affect you. I'm not talking about having to look at hobos, or put up with beggars.
There is nothing more dangerous than people with nothing to lose and you rather let them end up there than pay a little more taxes.
See your own history for proof of that.
>>76343139
>Not exactly.
No
100% identical you can read them yourself.
> Nowadays they will be replaced by machines, wich the human being will not be able to compete.
See above
> Mechanization of farming pushed millions of faremers to horrible factory jobs.
And ignored
Factory jobs of the era paid substantially more than agricultural jobs did. Hell you can see this same thing today in developing nations. Factory jobs(where leftist faggots haven't had them shit down due to their ignorance and self righteousness) also commonly known as sweatshops pay an average of 3-6 times the local wage and the same was true back when the west was going through the same development cycle.
> with the introduction of regulations and welfare)
The only demographics in America suffering consistent poverty are those dependent on welfare and the very very small few with mental illness/retardation.
Welfarism is a massive subsidization of poverty clearly shown over 50 years of history.
>>76341546
>implying there will ever be a singularity
lel
>>76343297
just remove the brown people and you could have it easy. But instead you keep importing more of them and will vote to stay in the EU like the good cucks you are.
>>76343352
Really gets on my nerves how many $ get wasted to process all the paper that allows laquisha to get her 9k/year
>>76338290
That's why leftist policies shouldn't go together with liberalism. The state needs to put the money where it needs to go to elevate impoverished people to a higher status. Into education, housing, food, and job training with some contingency involved to keep them from trading their EBT or school books for some fly new jordans.
This "let's just cut them a check and hope it works out" mentality needs to end.
>>76341609
Just kidding.
NatSoc with strict immigration laws is required for it to work.
Globalists want to dissolve borders.
It will never happen.
>>76337257
>>76337080
>Subsidizing niggers who have 20 childruns by 4 different women
>Neither they nor they spawn will ever have to be responsible or face consequences for their irresponsibility
>All paid for by jimmy white man, who will still be the evil oppressor in public discourse
Go fuck yourself OP you dirty commie faggot.
>>76343798
>Globalists want to dissolve borders.
>It will never happen.
Let's hope for the best.
>>76343798
This is why we need Bernie as Trump's VP. Nationalism?
Socialism?
God damn, my nuts just started to tingle. I don't even care how delusional I am right now. A fella with nothing left has a right to dream.
>>76337438
"instead"
lmfao... you trust the government with your money?
>>76343942
pretty sure you're already paying Jamal gibs anyway
>>76342756
> I think if you gave everyone 10k a year and let them buy what they want is pretty capitalistic.
The concept of currency is capitalist
>Maybe not entirely free market, but the idea belongs more to capitalists
No, entirely to capitalists.
I don't care. I'd abuse it. By the time it's around my land will be paid for. I garden and hunt. Tell me I can't pay for utilities, car insurance and property tax when I get 12k a year. I wouldn't contribute to society. I'm not sharing meat if I have limited hunting. I'm not sharing vegetables if no one from the community is picking weeds. Maybe I'll give a kid 5$ a pail to pick rocks when I get old. I plan on contributing nothing and milking the system. I worry about basic income because compared to most people I talk to I'm moral, just advantageous. I'm positive there's worse people than me out there. That's what I worry about. No one will work fast food. No one will work grocery stores. No one will work administration. Our income will be spent in different places, black market included. Either corporations will lose money or the government will. If you have no government or no corporations, how long will 95% of a post industrial society last? I'd expect another violent and most likely regressive revolution. MiLions if not billions will die. Major cities and hubs will be all but blood. One can only hope the rulers have enough gas to chopper to safety in the Alps. We need not worry about automization, but what will happen when he have no physical energy or finance left to power it.
>>76341724
One in three belgians are working. I guess you're one of them. What about the other 2 out of 3. Fuck them. Is that what you are saying.
Sanders 2016
>>76343145
It's like you haven't looked into at the massive devastation caused in Africa thanks to food aid
> capitalism wouldn't work if we didn't skim the top off the rich
Capitalism works just fine when you don't tax people to hell and back.
It's been shown time and again that people donate significantly more to charity when they aren't taxed and more conservative/classical liberal people donate over twice as much to charity as liberal progressives do.
The middle class can will and has existed in a very healthy state without taxing the rich.
Lazy faggots already have their lifestyle completely subsidized by government NEETbux, this just allows us to fire all the bureaucrats and replace it with a simpler system without libfag outrage.
>>76343568
>with UBI in place we can abolish the minimum wage as well
Very good point. That would be one major bonus to the plan. People can hire people at the rate they are truly worth without some artificial, legislated rate being the minimum.
>makes me wonder what would happen to the tipping culture we have here
Not sure we can ever get rid of the tipping culture entirely. Some people just like giving to others for great service. I think it would cut out the feels portion of it at least. No more, "you need to pay this person on top of your bill because if you don't they can't afford to eat and you should feel bad for it".
>>76344148
>paying taxes
>not contributing
i will not support a system that deprives people of social benefits depending on their income.
>>76337080
> Basic Income
The Homeostasis Award
you deserve a prize for drawing breath.
pure unadulterated Gibsmedat lazy greed.
nice graphic dickwad,
note the blue arrow/line in the legend, reporesenting income that is untaxed? (you call it "tax free", like i won something)
yeah, the blue arrow/line.
i notice that no arrow/line appears in the body of your graphic.
thus, ALL "income" will be taxed, so it's not "basic income" at all, its just inflationary bullshit
you dont deserve free money for not taking the dirtnap.
youre not courageous, or a survivor , youre a NEET basement dweller who wants free shit
i will suck a mile of cocks before i let myself be taxed into penury to support your hotpocket and gamestop addictions.
if you want "basic income", then GET A MINIMUM WAGE PART TIME JOB!
>>76337080
It will never happen this is just an excuse for lazy people to not work. If they don't work let them starve.
It is an absolute reality as automation becomes commonplace.
Universal income replacing all welfare programs is a different matter. That's pretty idiotic, it would be a nightmare to implement anyway.
>get robbed of money by niggers
>have no money until the next payment comes in
great idea
>>76337080
While I hate it on principle, it actually might be better than the current horrible welfare model. Theoretically the market should readjust by raising prices making it such that very little has changed overall.
>>76343408
Factory work was the knowledge work of the era.
You'll see the rise of larger closer knit families that are able to sustain themselves due to less workers making Significantly more and the cost of everything being exponentially decreased.
But since Commies have opposed close knit families since at least Marx it shouldn't be a surprise they want to stop this.
>>76344241
Don't you think it's a problem that people that are perfectly healthy will get the same money as someone who's blind and deaf?
Or that the higher taxrate will create a gray economy?
>>76337257
Coming from a degen who does nothing but smoke weed, roll MDMA and drop acid and has no job, this would be a very good thing for me.
Please, give me your hard-earned cash money so I can get REALLY fucked up at parties on friday night.
>>76344246
Realistically speaking if any part of your pitch to the left says abolish the minimum wage, you're dead in the water, brohammed.
You keep the minimum wage but now you have a reason to chop it down. Right off the bat you could probably cut it in half. Perform some verbal judo with the numbers to show them "See! With the money you get from the gibsmedats, you could get paid half your minimum wage and still come out on top!"
Simply look at how Bernie is selling socialism to kids and use those strategies.
i like negative income tax so that rich people dont receive welfare payments
anyone talking about a "universal income" also believes in sending 700$ welfare checks to millionaires
>>76344358
>i will suck a mile of cocks before i let myself be taxed into penury to support your hotpocket and gamestop addictions.
Your taxes already go to the state for things like food stamps and unemployment benefits.
Start sucking faggot.
>>76344394
There will always be jobs that need people and not machines. The market will create these jobs and people will fill them or go homeless. There will never be a basic income if you do nothing you deserve nothing in return. Adapt or become extinct.
>>76344358
>i will suck a mile of cocks before i let myself be taxed into penury to support your hotpocket and gamestop addictions.
Better get the lip gloss ready because it's coming as a result of automation, whether you like it or not.
>>76337249
no, it will NEVER come from the proponents of such a scheme
NEVER.
it will be stolen through usury and taxation from productive working people, to support lazy basement dwelling turds, and shiftless niggers who claim 10 different identities just as they do with welfare and foodstamps today.
it's just more govt taking MY shit to give it to worthless pond scum who are too lazy and greedy to work.
>>76344084
Ah yes, I keep forgetting about the money less aspect of it. Too many people espouse different levels of marxism. Guess you're the ideologically pure.
>>76344673
they are already doing it John
>>76337707
>>76337478
No you retards, if you make a cutoff that's not UBI and defeats some of its points. If you make a cutoff, you now need more bureaucracy to do means testing and weed out the people who try to game the system. If there is a cutoff (or a gradual one, whatever) there will be points where it's not worth it for someone to earn money on their own because it will reduce their welfare (which is this system you describe). It needs to be the same amount for everybody. Simple.
Example:
Current system someone earns 100k, pays like 30% effective tax, keeps 70k. Someone earns 20k pays 10% effective, keeps 18k.
New system has a flat tax of 40% and ubi of 15k.
First person pays (40-15) in tax, keeps 75k, second person pays (8-15) in tax, keeps 27k.
Making a cutoff just fucks this shit up for no benefit when you can just tweak the numbers instead.
>>76341152
>>76337257
In your dream faggot
You commie liberals never face the truth, do you?
The truth is, not meme: niggers
Yes again it is the nigger. Niggers don't work. Niggers have 10+ children with 3+ women who in total 15+ people all together DO NOT WORK
No matter how your program is good, you never consider the factor that people are genuinely evil and lazy. Niggers on top of that are worse
So the god damn program just does not work
Look at welfare programs. You helped nothing to poor people you changed nobody's mind. Instead you made poor people even more lazy and you also upset the hardworking backbone middle class. There's no benefits but only hurting 2 group of people
>>76337080
people who get no jobs get fired and can't find a job and don't qualify for benefits who aren't disabled only have one option left to them after their money runs out
>DEATH
There are people IN THIS THREAD RIGHT NOW who UNIRONALLY SHILL FOR THE ABOVE.
basic income would take away the constant fear of death from people trying to survive and take away the main incentive to crime, which is survival.
>>76337846
>It punishes hard work and productivity and rewards laziness.
The current welfare system does that. We are not comparing a system against its abstinence, but against a current existing horrible system. I think it is a pretty stupid idea, but is probably far worse of a system than existing models.
>>76344415
>not just using debit for everything
nigs won't remember your PIN
>>76337453
> in the future, everyone will be NEET, and only the few remaining suckers will work.
if this shit comes through, the economy will collapse.
this is the ultimate expression of liberal economics.
free shit for everyone!!!
we will pay for it by taxing the rich!!!
when the rich run out of money, we will simply print more money!!!
What Could Go Wrong!!!
>>76344812
then how will this new system make them worse if they're already trash?
you and your like minded opponents of this keep saying 'i don't want my money going to niggers who don't work'
your money is already going to them. this is a redistribution of federal spending
>>76340857
>encouraging low income people to work more
Nice meme
Once again the commies assume this is heaven and everybody is just as sane as Jesus Christ. Yep everyone is little angel who wants to contribute to the society loving member
Gotta write that in your commie narratives, right?
>>76344948
When you have a house fire do you
A extinguish it
Or
B find something to replace it with
>>76342339
Get cucked you whiny bitch.
>>76337846
but it doesnt punish hard work you stupid fuck.. the basic income would be only enough to live with. then if you want extra money you have to work for it
>>76345111
not having welfare would cause more problems than it would fix
>>76344868
I think people don't do crime because they are so poor they need to, I believe they do it because they are so poor it's the only way for them to be relatively well off.
But if people ITT had their way that could become the case.
>>76337080
This is a very Fascist idea if you think about it.
And that's possibly why it could work
One of the problems with welfare in America is that earning more at your job will actually make you less money, because your benefits are getting cut
One of the problems with a policy like this is the dysgenic effect it has. Poor, low IQ, low functioning people now have the resources to reproduce more. It would work only if the benefits were minimal and did not increase with family size. It might also have to be combined with a policy of Eugenics to make it all work.
On the whole I think this is a rather good idea. So long as politicians have the nerve to keep the benefits low, and provide extra incentive to employment
>>76344265
I'll ignore your lack of reading comprehension. I've noticed you guys are nearly Irish tier, still light years ahead of turks in that regard. Will my 12k go entirely towards property tax rendering myself, no more than a waste of the computers resources?
lmao a universal basic income is such a retarded idea that would never work
niggies will just keep giving birth and having more kids. Who's going to stop them from doing that? Nobody wants to be the proponent for population control, nobody wants to be the one that says "hey stop having kids because we're not going to pay to feed them" because a society with a basic income would most likely be a bleeding heart libtard society where nobody is allowed to suffer. The system would eventually collapse because that money would dry up eventually
>>76337846
It would actually encourage economic growth and small business formation. There are tens of millions of 'middle class" americans who don't have enough liquidity to take any kind of economic risks.
>>76338399
> leaving people on their own to survive
> onyl after giving them free shit every month > DOUBLE the money earned at a current minimum wage job
> sounds like a well thought out and carefully researched proposal.
> just like Bolshevism.
brilliant doublespeak faggot.
too bad youre obviously a moron.
this scheme has all the worst elements of marxism AND laissez faire economics.
enjoy the derision of everyone who can do math you dirty dirty faggot.
>>76345183
>not having welfare would cause more problems than it would fix
Would it?
This is an empty phrase pushed for without evidence even being asked for.
Look at the damage done to Detroit Chicago Baltimore.
That is the face of welfarism.
Such phenomena was unknown in America even at the height of the great depression before large scale welfare.
You know who took care of the people who actually required it?
Charities and fraternal societies.
Which were remarkable successful because not only do theh not operate on the perverse incentives of using other people's money taken through force they actually have the up close knowledge to cut the lazy drunkards who aren't willing to work off.
This is one of the most important part of the process of helping someone who is genuinely in a bad spot.
To call them out when they are leeching.
>>76345496
clearly this man is an expert economist and we should all listen to his well-spoken ideas
>>76344084
>The concept of currency is capitalist
>>76341725
I agree, but that would be outside the scope of basic incomre. Government is a bitch and they steal your money.
Why do you assume they spend the money they stole from you on 'other people's fuckup poorfag criminal offspring'.
They are keeping it for themselves, silly.
>>76345637
clearly you have no argument because you're a fucking retard. When the AI comes and replaces us, there will be no basic income. You will fucking die along with the rest of the redditors.
>>76345606
>and Keynesian economics.
Fixed
>>76344613
Good points. Ya know, if you or someone like you wanted to get into high level politics, this the proverbial meal ticket issue.
>>76345437
actually the reality is that youre a little too inclined towards eugenics and need to calm down
you dont know where the bottleneck of the government funds are at
why would you want to short stack people instead of igniting a few less million dollar bombs in the desert once in a while
nobody who criticizes welfare knows where the money is going theyre just envious
>>76337438
your already a national corporation commodity in most nations, but they do not pay for you to even be alive on real terms. they already estimate how much money you will make them when you are born with your blood and dna saved for perpetuity in a database
>>76341739
Strong argument. Doesn't mean you cann't anonymously like it.
>>76344148
If everyone in the country gets 12K a year groceries and rent will just go up 12K a year. It's not magic, that is just how the market works.
>>76345762
A strong AI will hopefully spare its creators and cull the nigs
>>76345621
revolutions get started because people get hungry
do you honestly believe that if we stopped paying the nigs in EBT, that they'd clean up and go get a job?
>>76338651
> universal basic income has never been tried
because normal people; ie. NOT RETARDS, recognize it is a despicable abomination that will destroy any economy that attempts it.
"basic income" is literally on the same level of retardation as opening your borders and inviting in a horde of muzzies.
>>76344868
people who can't get something on their own has only one option
>GET BIG DADDY GOVT TO FORCE EVERYONE TO PAY ME
There are people IN THIS THREAD RIGHT NOW who UNIRONALLY SHILL FOR THE ABOVE.
and you are one of them
>>76345697
They keep .most of it sure but theh do give enough to the darkies to keep them voting Democrat and to not riot.
The worst welfare leeches are the government bureaucrats who make six figures at a no skill job that you can't et fired from unless you call someone a nigger or come to work with your genitals hanging out
>>76345943
Because a policy like this would encourage spics and niggers to breed like rabbits and overwhelm us
They'll never work, and spend all the money on drugs and at the strip club
The only reason their population is held in check now is Planned Parenthood
>>76338530
>no welfare
>retards, niggers, and lazies will vote democratic next election for the free shit
>economy tanks
t-thanks democracy
>>76346091
what is the difference between BUI and welfare?
>>76342851
i agree, I hate asking for help. its degrading. and shameful. when I fail. its because of me, and no one else, neither shall another take the burdens for my failure.
>>76346063
>If everyone in the country gets 12K a year groceries and rent will just go up 12K a year
says you
last time i checked the price of laptop computers were down
i had to buy a crt monitor in 1998
dont you wish the market worked properly and we could actually get cheaper goods and more money at the same time?
>>76346175
thats why we ought to have a homogeneous society and people can live amongst their own people in peace
oh wait but thats racist
mexicans should live in mexico
USA is a european founded nation.... it should be primarily white europeans and native americans
>>76346086
Nope they will turn to crime because that's the next easy thing they can do for money and doesn't require real work. Which will eventually pinpoint all the people who do not belong in society. The problem is people are lazy and wont go out and work. I lived of 12k for years while working manual labor for food on the weekends. If you are "above" manual labor your a nigger and have no place in society. Work or starve.
I think it's a fine idea, as long as you can raise the taxes. Who should pay for the tax increase? I'd say the people who receive the basic income should. Anybody who gets 10K a year in basic income should have a 10K a year tax levied against them. As long as it's balanced, there won't be any problem funding it.
>>76346540
>Who should pay for the tax increase?
probably the guy who invented walmart
that wasnt too hard to answer
>>76346440
But no society is homogeneous. Even a relatively racially pure society has lower elements trying to drag down the gene pool
I would never support this.
Like it's asking too much of people to request welfare.
How lazy can you get?
>>76344622
. everything in society is socialism, so we should HAVE MOAR SOCIALISM!!!
lefty logic.
safety net programs are a necessary evil, not proof that marxism will work.
such programs exist SOLELY due to the efforts of people who work. under this idiotic scheme, the leeches will exceed the carrying capacity of the working population, resulting in the death of an economy.
>>76344627
> my hypothetical imaginary sci-fi doomsday scenario makes this silly scheme unavoidable.
when the zombie apocalyse comes, ill be working as a zed-exterminator, while you shamble about moaning, and trying to stay one step ahead of the spikes on the front end of my truck.
my hypothesis is more likely to occur.
only utter faggots and wastes of skin think this bullshit could ever work.
>>76346821
>But no society is homogeneous
wow youre pretty defeatist
last time i checked japan and korea were like 99.9% racially pure
if you believed in it then you would agree with it
but apparently you dont want that
>>76346063
Don't be a fucking idiot. My food and shelter is taken care of. I asked if my property taxes or car insurance will then cost me 12k a year. Will we all be cogs in the computers process instead of the current governments and beuracrats? That will be a problem when more men than I abandon societies ills. Either the rich lose, the government loses, or you lose. When you lose I'll be safe. When the others do I fear for my livelihood
>>76346946
okay but as long as you still suck my cock
>>76346086
>revolutions get started because people get hungry
Yeah and continually creating more just above hungry people who are incapable of working their way to Independence only makes the problem worse when it comes to a head. When you have a friend addicted to coke you don't give them more coke because the crash is uncomfortable you help them get clean.
Welfarism is only going to make the issue worse and worse and worse as it has been
> do you honestly believe that if we stopped paying the nigs in EBT, that they'd clean up and go get a job?
Yes actually.
There are plenty of examples and hard data out there that shows when the proverbial spigot is turned off those suckling at it actually go out and look for a job.
And as I explained private charity can easily fill the void for the truly needy.
Especially considering that when compared next to welfare charity gets 75% of every dollar to the needy vs 25% with welfare and further data out there shows that people give much more to charity when they aren't taxed to death and told "oh my tax dollars are going to help x I don't need to give to charity".
Rooting out the leftist entitlement mentality pushed in education is also extremely important as well.
These attitudes amongst blacks is derived from propaganda pushing the whole "white man owes you something"
>>76346982
It's just basic science
Genetics is a bell curve. Half of everybody is below average.
Whether your society improves are falls to ruin depends on if the right tail or left tail of the bell curve reproduces
>>76346083
Best hope you're Asian then
>>76347128
>charity
Every man is created equal. Some just have to live under mugabe or obama
>>76347128
dude the whole system is a fucking joke
people who are "independent" are as independent as their boss sends them their check in the mail
nobody is functioning on their own
you couldnt dig a hole to grow a tomato in the first 5 attempts
>>76347200
nahhhhhhhhhhhhhh
you could have a genius who discovers gravity who has parents that are below retarded IQ retards
i care about homogenity because it promotes peace and happiness
not about improving constantly
>>76347364
>comparing obama to mugabe
>>76345767
> fixed
nope.
i meant exactly what i said.
keynesian economics IS the economics of marx's Authoritarian Socialist State
laissez faire economics in the wild extreme of the anarcho-____________ist's fantasies is a the opposite, yet equally retarded extreme
each offers a simplistic utopian fantasy for the economically ignorant on either side.
the argument that GIVING AWAY FREE SHIT TO EVERYONE (wacky marxism) and then "letting the unrestricted free market sort it out" (laissez faire) is a fusion of the two greatest retardations of economic theory.
the proponents of this scheme are pushing for marxism by exploiting the delusions and ignorance of the lumpen proles, and promising shit they will NEVER deliver to the degenerate intellectually stunted inbred morons of the ultra far right
the two sides of OP's argument are mutually exclusive, proving he is a shill and as usual, when theres shilling, you find a marxist on the other end.
>>76347614
>let me give those farms to the rich
>let me give those taxes to ((()))
Long live Rhodesia. Never forget USS Liberty
