gibmees for every Swiss citizen.
Is such a gibmees payment really a bad thing? I would have said, this actually makes a shitload of sense. I would, however, reduce the amount to 1500 Swiss Francs instead of 2500 Swiss Francs.
Why is it good? Because the amount is paid to every adult Swiss, regardless of who he is. That amount is NOT paid to foreigners, migrants, "refugees" etc. It is extremely hard to get Swiss citizenship, so that new introduction of an income is actually a way to help Swiss people and discriminate against the 25% foreigners living in Switzerland.
They say the proposal will cost 200 billion Swiss Franc a year. But likely it would cost a lot less net, because other payments do not have to be paid and people spend this money in Switzerland. There is a proposal to tax all transactions regardless of the nature of the transaction with 0.1% or 0.2%. This would be a good way to finance this.
FREE
SHIT
>>76165222
One day I will meet a German who isn't a socialist.
>>76165222
Socialism is disease
>>76165222
Yes it is a bad thing. How would that ever be afforded? And if you just give everyone an income why would anyone work?
$3000 is too much. The fact that they started that high is going to put a lot of people off and will likely give it a lasting stigma. Not a good plan from whoever pushed it in my opinion.
>>76165511
They "why would anyone work" argument isn't too sound. People already work beyond what's needed for their basic needs. I don't see people making $100K a year dropping out and living in squalor.
>>76165540
$3000 a month isn't that much in Switzerland
>>76165222
Guten morgen, Deutsch bruder.
The Swiss are on a whole other level, as I'm sure you're well aware of. They can honestly give a shit about foreign workers- as shown by their vote to heavily regulate foreign work visas a few summers ago.
I wish other nations would run their countries like Switzerland. Jobs go to Swiss people first, all the benefits go to Swiss people first. There is nothing wrong with that. If the Swiss want to do 3.000CHF, then who the fuck cares?
>>76165637
>>76165540
Correct, it is like 1500 bucks a month in the US.
>>76165222
So wait, you get this money even if you are employed? It kind of makes sense in that you could save a lot of money be removing most of the welfare bureaucracy, but at the same time CHF2500 is a huge amount to be redistributing to unemployed people.
My country is allegedly a welfare state and the unemployed here only get CHF575 a month. Either it would destroy the economy through price inflation or lots of low income people would start wondering why they're bothering to work.
>>76165618
>People already work beyond what's needed for their basic needs.
People work because they have no choice but to do so. If people are presented the opportunity to not work plenty of people will do so and the system will fail as a result.
>>76165661
>Jobs go to Swiss people first, all the benefits go to Swiss people first
Actually, free movement of people within the EU has been extended to Switzerland many years ago. I can go there and get a job and the Swiss can't do anything about it, even if another Swiss person desperately wants my job.
I could go to Switzerland, open up a business and employ thousands of people, all non-Swiss EU citizens and they couldn't do shit about it.
>>76165222
That's like a quarter of their GDP. Where is this money coming from? vat? Why don't they just reduce taxes by this amount?
It's not real gibs, it's a universal income, which will be necessary in the near future unless we literally ban automation.
Society will have to have a floor, because there won't be enough jobs for everyone. 2/3rds of the people will be unemployable by 2040. Right now we need Trump to fix our society and close our borders so we can actually sustain a Universal Income State, but after we can limit the number of immigrants, that'll be the way to go.
>>76165685
Austria has a basic income which everyone who has no other income gets and it is 800 Euros or about 1000 dollars.
Most rich countries in Europe have this kind of welfare system.
The Swiss have a 100% private healthcare insurance system. So those 2500 Swiss Franc have to pay for healthcare as well.
>>76165768
>Why don't they just reduce taxes by this amount?
Because that would only help the working people, not the non-working useless people.
>>76165788
>It's not real gibs, it's a universal income, which will be necessary in the near future unless we literally ban automation.
When will this meme of automation die. It has not happened and never will. people have been saying this since the 1700s.
The rule of life is that you get more of what you subsidize and less of what you tax.
Here, you subsidize inactivity and tax production.
The final outcome is predetermined. A bad idea.
>>76165902
Something we could learn well back home.
>>76165767
All false, free movements doesn't imply you can work there. You first need to obtain residence there ( hard if you're not already being hired )
>>76165923
I wouldn't expect you to understand, Belarus, but literally only 1 of the top 15 biggest sectors in the United States cannot already be automated for, mostly or wholly. The only reason we don't yet is because said automation is too expensive, RIGHT NOW.
What happens in the future when these machines can be more efficiently made, while also costing less than the current worker's salaries? McDonalds only needs to have 3 people manning any one restaurant. One person to manage the store's finances, one to load the food into the machine, and a janitor.
A human needs money for food, water, clothing, electricity, housing, transportation, and taxes. A robot only needs one of those things.
>>76165923
I reduce paid positions via robotics professionally.
>>76165222
only if you also cut out welfare
>>76166154
This. Either a Basic Income or Welfare, not both.
~39% Support are faaaaaaaaar too many. You have too many communists. Your country is fucked.
>>76166099
I'm sure you will be happy to pay for every nigger in your country to be on the dole and keep on reproducing en masse.
Universal income is not a thing when you are literally better off just burning the money in a trashcan for heat instead.
>give everyone 1500 franks a month
>everyone can afford 1500 franks more a month
>stores adjust prices accordingly
>>76165618
This is why eastern europe is so poor.
>>76166284
Imagine the nig population though.
>>76165222
Switzerland now confirmed best country in the world by far.
TAKE ME WITH YOU PLZ.
I have white cross on my flag too :'(
>>76166284
We have no other choice, Poland. Over 50% of the working adults will be unemployed. What happens to these people? They die off peacefully?
No, a large unemployed section of the economy will riot. There's no other choice than have a hybrid economy with price controls for the poor. They aren't going to die off quietly, they're going to burn everything down with them. The best we can hope for is to repatriate all the Africans back in their homeland, and send back all the Mexicans, Guatemalans, Hondurans, Salvadoreans, and Nicaraguans.
Either that or put up more Planned Parenthood billboards and illegal gun sellers in African and Hispanic neighborhoods. They'll fix the problem themselves.
I'd say eliminate any and ALL forms of welfare (ALL OF IT) and instill a no-questions basic income of $12,000/yr for every adult US citizen.
>>76165699
You are implying that the system we have now is correct. Do we really need to work 40 hours a week to make plastic single-serving shit? How much man hours are wasted just to make a needless product and try to get people to buy it?
And don't forget that socialism is what made us differ from the neanderthals. I don't get it when people hate socialism. Are you saying that we shouldn't try to keep our species alive as a whole but to spend every resource on a select few?
>>76165222
Where does it state it applies only to swiss citiziens?
2. Das Grundeinkommen soll der ganzen Bevölkerung ein menschenwürdiges Dasein und die Teilnahme am öffentlichen Leben ermöglichen.
>>76166485
It's gonna be like the matrix senpai. The Jews are gonna plug us all into VR and farm us.
>>76166510
That would just make prices go up accordingly unless the necessities were controlled for. Jews gonna Jew.
We need a hybrid economy with Basic Income and the option to work for more money. There's no other way to make a post-service economy work. We literally have no other options. What is everyone going to do, become physicists?
>>76166093
Incorrect. Switzerland has adopted the 4 freedoms of the EEA. And one of the freedoms allows anyone to come to Switzerland to look for a job.
>>76166485
If you really want to make america great again first thing that must happen is to cut majority of the welfare.
Goal should be to help working people and not those who dont wish to do so.
Your country is leaking unimaginable billions of dollars helping those who do not wish to be helped. You are literally little africa at this stage and its only going to get worse by putting up with shitskins chimpouts.
>>76166510
This seems to be what most people are pushing for. What I don't agree with is the child tax thing. Giving people money for each kid AND giving every adult money will be a complete disaster. If you can't afford to raise a kid with your basic income (or real job) then don't raise a kid. We shouldn't be paying people to have kids.
>>76166284
Welfare for people who can't meaningfully contribute to society has been a thing in developed countries for a while vlad. The problem with basic income is that it could lead to people can contribute deciding that it's not worth their while.
>>76165865
>Austria has a basic income which everyone who has no other income gets and it is 800 Euros or about 1000 dollars.
Isn't that just welfare with a different name?
>>76166368
>>stores adjust prices accordingly
That's not how economics work, m8. If it were then food here would cost more than twice as much as it does in America.
>>76166154
>only if you also cut out welfare
Yes, the proposal is to kill ALL welfare and pensions and unemployment payments... everything. And replace it with a basic income.
>>76166099
Waterwheels came, humanity survived.
Windmills came, we survived that too.
We survived steam engines, computing devices, cars, railways, planes, square rig ships, automatized weaving, mining, mass production, assembly lines and thousands of other inventions that rendered billions of jobs obsolete.
It's arrogant of you to believe we won't survive further automation.
>>76166515
Because Socialism can only work with secured borders. If there is free movement of people, the socialist society crumbles.
And also it doesn't incentivize success. Capitalism does.
>>76166652
Our food does cost more than America's and likewise countries like Indonesia have cheaper food than us.
>>76166592
>Where does it state it applies only to swiss citiziens?
In all articles. Does it not apply just to Swiss citizens? If it were to apply to everyone, then it would be shit.
>>76166515
Survival of the fit, sonny.
If your product a shit, you fail.
If not, you succeed.
If you dumdum, you hug trees with your car or annihilate your liver with hectolitres of booze
If you no dumdum, you don't die stupidly.
If our species want to survive, we need to let the worst of worst go where they want.
To graves they're digging for themselves right as we speak.
>>76166093
It´s the other way around. You have to have a signed job contract in order to move to switzerland and get an appartment. Either that, or you can provide proof that you have enough money or earn enough money (through stocks or so) that you are not able to apply for welfare. If you have that, then you can also move to switzerland.
>>76165222
Given that they just elected a lefto president, gibs on that scale would probably become a liability fast.
>That amount is NOT paid to foreigners, migrants, "refugees" etc. It is extremely hard to get Swiss citizenship,
So you can imagine (((they))) will try to change one of those two things next.
>>76166642
Oh I agree
When people start shitting out niglets for more gibs, it would be just as bad as the welfare state
>>76166764
>Our food does cost more than America's
Not by a significant amount. e.g:
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Australia&city1=Portland%2C+ME&city2=Sydney
For reference the minimum wage in Maine is 7.50USD
>>76165222
Think of the horrible incitements...
>>76166668
Are you retarded or do you seriously think that there is anything post-service? Post-industrial gave us a service based economy where it became almost impossible to recover from a financial crisis, like the one in '08, because there are very few low-level jobs. Now that even those jobs are going away, the only option is to get a college degree for a science field, but not everyone has the aptitude to go into robotics. It's literally less than 2% of the population capable of that kind of innovation.
>>76166639
I understand entirely. Trump is what we need now, but we cannot stop the steady march of automization. We have to play our cards right or we will fall. First we have to secure our borders, then we have to bring back what jobs we can, then we have to ease into a post-industrial, post-service economy by introducing basic incomes and price controls while also offering incentives to learn the sciences, or create new things people enjoy.
This has to be our future if we do not prohibit automization, which isn't a good option either.
>>76166803
Eidgenössische Volksinitiative «Für ein bedingungsloses Grundeinkommen»
Die Bundesverfassung vom 18. April 1999 wird wie folgt geändert:
Art. 110a (neu) bedingungsloses Grundeinkommen
1. Der Bund sorgt für die Einführung eines bedingungslosen Grundeinkommens.
2. Das Grundeinkommen soll der ganzen Bevölkerung ein menschenwürdiges Dasein und die Teilnahme am öffentlichen Leben ermöglichen.
3. Das Gesetz regelt insbesondere die Finanzierung und die Höhe des Grundeinkommens.
>Bevölkerung
>only Swiss citziens
pick one
>Give me free money for doing nothing
Fucking parasites.
>>76165673
>>76165637
>3000 a month isnt much
>is 1500 USD
thats a shit ton. like thats all neccesary and even some unneccesary expenses plus a little extra.
I could live very comfortably on 1500 a month if I had a room mate/gf to split rent with.
I voted against it.
The Grundeinkommen will drammatically decreace the lower class, especially the construction workers who suffer from severe back problems.
>>76166920
>>Bevölkerung
>>only Swiss citziens
Why should I pick one?
Isn't this a question of definition who the "Bevölkerung" is? What if someone said only those who can vote are part of the "Bevölkerung" and the rest are just "Gäste"?
>>76165618
Who would do the crappy jobs like gardening or McDonnalds? That payment would just create inflation and the increase of a useless NEET population. Switzerland would get empobrished in the long run.
>>76166680
So how do you quantify this success? More offspring?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU
>T-there'll be jobs! We've done it in the past!
Yeah. No. There won't.
>>76167073
You are a fucking retard and i would like to hit you with a Duden
>>76167091
You would still get paid for doing crappy jobs. They wouldn't suddenly take your basic income away when you start working like they do now with welfare.
>>76165637
2500 CHF is enough to live in Switzerland.
This would create an entire subculture of lazy fuckers that would just play video games and smoke weed.
Fuck that.
With that money you can live in a shitty studio apartment, have enough to eat, and even afford basic luxury shit.
>>76167073
Well then read for yourself site of the guys who launched the initative
http://www.grundeinkommen.ch/wollen-dann-nicht-viele-auslander-in-die-schweiz/
>Deshalb müssten auch Migranten mit einer rechtmäßigen Aufenthaltsbewilligung ein Grundeinkommen erhalten
>>76167225
>Deshalb müssten auch Migranten mit einer rechtmäßigen Aufenthaltsbewilligung ein Grundeinkommen erhalten
That would be a catastrophe.
I can accept that long term immigrants that have the C permit, would receive it, but fuck the rest.
>>76167096
Bettering oneself. Creating new, better things.
Why be a doctor in a Socialist state? You get the same money for being a janitor. Sure, you don't have to clean peoples shit up, but you have to spend a decade learning a craft and dealing with some pretty fucked up stuff.
You have to incentivize people to do harder things or they won't do it. This is a concept in video games that we've seen actualized numerous times. When you have two characters that do the same things with similar effectiveness, over 90% of the players choose the easier of the two. This happens in DotA, in Street Fighter, in Super Smash Bros, in Counter Strike, and etc. People will find the optimal difficulty::reward ratio really easily, and they will exploit it.
That means that you'll have the majority of your population not wanting to do necessary jobs, like farming, doctoring, and producing scientific research and thoroughly checking your studies.
>>76166485
>What happens to these people?
Assuming that what you say happens,which probably won't as sectors like entretainment,research or investment would increase, then tjose people should be physically removed,unless you want to waste productive money on nothing by niggerish behaviour. If half of the loney that goes to research,would go to investment,the economy would flourish. Welfare is a problem,and physical removal would be needed in your case.
>>76167225
They do not provide any rational arguments. I do not see why this income should not only apply to Swiss people. There is no legal requirement to hand it to foreigners at all.
Actually, the only thing in the link which makes sense is the point that wages will probably be lower, making Switzerland less attractive to migrants, thus limiting the migrant pressure on Switzerland.
>>76165222
So let me get this straight... The two main arguments against basic income are this:
>It's too much money, it will cause people to drop out of employment because they don't need to work anymore to live comfortably and buy luxury items!
>It's too much money, it will cause price inflation and poor people will end up as poor as they always were!
That's some next level double think right there.
>>76165222
What did he mean by this?
https://youtu.be/5USX24h-1qc
>>76165637
A family of 3
2500 for the father
2500 for the mother
860 for the kid
5860 CHF for the family
Which is about 1000 CHF more per month than my family of 4 had despide my father worked full time. And still i had a good childhood and had never to cut short on something important
>>76167362
Look at your own country, Spain. What jobs do your people have?
And no, the entertainment, R&D, and investment sectors cannot inflate enough to handle the influx of unemployed people. They have a carrying capacity, an upper limit for how many people they can hold. 50% of the country cannot be employed in these three fields, there simply isn't enough room in them for an economy to function. And that's ignoring the fact that the majority of the population is not skilled enough to enter these fields. Musicians, Artists, Scientists, and Bankers spend either 10 years of practice or 10,000 hours to master their crafts. Even then, it takes natural talent to even get motivated enough to learn the process in the first place. How are WE going to train 150,000,000 people to get into these sectors? It's logistically impossible.
And what are the alternatives? Workfare? That's what communist Cuba does. When I went to Havana, I saw people who would literally repaint fences and houses multiple times a week. They had no other jobs. They were paying people to do no work. It is a waste of the workers' time, and the employer's. Are we going to pay people to dig holes and fill them up again?
>>76167181
But why would you work,in those places when you can just surf all the day? Who the hell would want to work in construction? There are only 2 solutions for this
1) Mass importing third worlders,which would bring more problems in the long run,which is not even sustainable.
2) Massive inflation of wages and prices,making savings totaly worthless,and the basic income a missery.
>>76165222
Man, I can't see why giving out 3000 dollar a month is a good thing.
I understand a purpose, but it really shouldn't be more than it would cost for bread a day.
Then others benefits should be cut down.
Giving too much gives people idea that money is a source of wealtch.
NO, IT ISN'T
Work and resources are source of wealth.
Yes, we are advanced that robots do much work for us, but if it is argument for getting everything that somebody else have to work for free
then
NOBODY IN A SANE MIND WOULD WORK
GO AWAY COMMIE
>>76167396
It is not about if its rational or not this is how the Initative is written, it WILL apply to migrants with residence permit if you like it or not.
for it to only apply to swiss citizens it had to be stated in the fucking initativetext but they deliberately chose to write Bevölkerung (which usually apllies to people inside a geographical border) and not Schweizer Bürger.
>>76166886
Minimum wage is an entirely different beast to basic income.
>>76167355
There would still be monetary incentives. Socialism doesn't mean that you need to babysit people it just means that basic needs are taken care of by the consensus (the government) instead of private institutions.
I don't have to work because I live in Finland and I get an apartment and food for free. Still I work. I want to have a meaning in life and the monetary ability to do something more than just to be alive.
>>76165222
Maybe if it was like.. 200 per month, and only for the unemployed, and decreased with the time that person stays unemployed.
>>76167091
Young people from Spain and Greece. Swiss people would be able to afford time to start real businesses, get education, and spend time working on more worthwhile and meaningful occupations.
>>76166827
If the product a shit and fail
Then you cant ever say patents, ip laws, copyright or anything are beneficial and in fact harm society.
If you make a product but i can make a better one using your designs. By your definition i should succeed and you should fail.
Thus capitalist laws are harmful to a capitalist society, in fact anarchy is best for growth by your thoughts as noone has to follow any rules and only the best progress.
>>76167475
>>It's too much money, it will cause people to drop out of employment because they don't need to work anymore to live comfortably and buy luxury items!
That's because welfare queens (read:niggers) are lazy fucks who spend their money on short-term gratification like new shoes, gold chains, and tatoos. What's the point in having a job
>>It's too much money, it will cause price inflation and poor people will end up as poor as they always were!
I'm no expert on economics, so I can't tell you what will and will not cause large changes in inflation, but I do know that the 'poor' who collect welfare are only poor due to the aforementioned spending habits. Rather than using it to invest in something that will grow their money or using it as a lifeline until they can find a job, they chose to spend it on those useless items. Dem pee ess fourz n jordanz n shiet are expensive.
>>76167584
My country is the most socialist in western Europe. Unemployment is due goverment inflating wages and expending on useless bureocracy to maintain a welfare state.
> And no, the entertainment, R&D, and investment sectors cannot inflate enough to handle the influx of unemployed people
Workers orkers would get richer die automation,so families would only need a income to sustain a family,so the workforce would naturally shrink,as happened when child labour wasnt needed anymore.
That is why lower birthrates are not a problem,our populations are meant to be smaller and more educated. The importation of third worlders is just fucking up the natural process of the market. You are also ignoring how big things like spacial exploration and the likes could be in the near future. If we automate everything wealth would increase drastically,allowing bigger investmenrs viable.Anyway, If we arrive to that level of automation, some people would have to be physically removed,as there is no need of them,and welfare is just a waste,and a deterriment to society.
>>76165444
Trips of truth. Basic income doesn't work.
>>76167587
>1) Mass importing third worlders
What do you think these cucks will want to do next?
>>76166680
How do you define secure borders.
If US takes over world all planet is in border. So then socialism is the best, we just need to push for unilateral government.
WW3 who wins gets it all.
>>76167989
>Swiss people would be able to afford time to start real businesses, get education, and spend time working on more worthwhile and meaningful occupations.
Kek. Yeah,the people working at Mcdonalds at 26 are hiden genius that would revolutionize society. Dont be dumb. The people that are opening bussinesses and studying in Switzerland are alredy doing it.
I learned in econ 101 that if you give everybody 100 bucks for "free", the price of a burger rises. I imagine this is somehow relevant to this basic income issue.
>>76167730
>for it to only apply to swiss citizens it had to be stated in the fucking initativetext
So you are asying your government can't just define who is part of the Bevölkerung and who is not? Where does that say so?
>>76168104
Yeah,but thar is just a huge Ponzi scheme that would implode in a matter of decades. But knowing how little democracies care about the long run I can see it happening.
>>76165865
>a basic income which everyone who has no other income gets
That's not a basic income.
A basic income is the same ammount of gibs for everyone, regardless of how much money you have on the bank, how much you earn with a job or how much profit you make.
>>76167765
Huh? The poorest people in our society earn ~twice as much as the poorest people in America, but our food prices aren't much higher. Ergo, it's clearly wrong to suggest that low income purchasing power is what the market bases food prices off of.
Here's another one:
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=Indonesia&country2=Australia
Keep in mind that the median wage in Australia is 17 times higher than in Indonesia.
If anything, food is more affordable in countries with low wealth gaps and high welfare/minimum wages.
>>76168101
Neither does the welfare state. Hell, the welfare state is arguably worse
>>76168153
Progress is not made by one person. It is done by thousands of cogs. Thus putting more people into education will only benefit people as progress happens exponentially faster
>>76167204
Those people already exist.
The ones profiting from a basic income are basically two groups:
1) lazy fucks
2) motivated people who can`t get a job
1) has always existed and will keep existing. as a company`s manager - do you want those potheads working in your company? i wouldnt. thats why forcing them doesnt yield anything.
i know that /pol/ claims that 2) doesnt exist, but i personally know more than a handful of people like that. they studied in STEM, made some mediocre money for a couple of years, firm cut back, now they are 35+ and don`t get accepted anymore.
for anyone who already has a job, nothing changes except hard work that doesnt get any recognition like mining, cleaning sewage and such would have to be paid better while non-qualified office jobs would be paid less.
yes, some people would quit their current job and there would be a shock for our economy, but it wouldnt become a problem, because more than 80% of those who are able to work either want to keep working because they like their job or because they want a nice house, car, vacation, ...
>>76168172
No it is not.
If you give 100 bucks for free and in your society everyone has the exact same wealth and income, then the 100 bucks for free is irrelevant.
If you give 100 bucks to everyone for free and you have a normal wealth and income distribution, you are actively redistributing wealth from the rich to the poor. The inflation will hit everyone in different way, but the redistribution effect is a lot bigger than the inflation effect.
>>76168218
No, the poorest people in our society make much less than full-time $15 an hour.
If wealth is not incresed,giving more money to people just means inflation. Another reason that this idea is dumb as fuck.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_money
>>76168217
They still call it Mindestsicherungseinkommen (basic security income).
>>76165923
This. Fucking autists with their automation and robots and bullshit AI. It will NOT happen in your lifetime. But relax, you'll get your cyber-vagoos.
>>76165923
>1700s
>craftsman works day and night making a shirt
>2016
>a machine makes it in 5 seconds
bin yourself
>>76168172
Basic income vs. QE
It's just a question of who's getting the newly printed money. The basic theory implies that the money actually circulates so if Fed wanted to hit their inflation targets they should just give the money to the people that would actually take in to the economy.
>>76168255
No. Progress happens due capitalization. Only a handful of people make society progress. That is why inequality is a sing of a healthy society, as bigger capital investments are possible,as wealth is not spread. If people need welfare to survive,the contribute nothing to society,thus physical removal wpuld be needed,if we dont want society to just expend valuable resources on waste. Big population is relevant when you need labour,if labour becomes obsolete,having a huge chunk of the population doing nothing is just waste
I support UBI as a replacement for the different welfare systems, the major benefit being reduced bureaucracy and reduced scamming of the system.
>>76168205
No they can not because Bevölkerung is defined term which includes people with a diffrent country background as "ständige Wohnbevölkerung" if they live here longterm
>>76168439
>1700s people forced to leave farms on mass because of farm machinery
>85% of people work on farms
Obviously 85% of people are still unemployed according to you "100% automation" faggots.
>>76165222
There should be gibsmeedats but MUCH lower sum.
>>76166652
>That's not how economics work, m8.
Maybe not in the US. In Lisbon prices are already going up because people with more money than the average portuguese are moving in from rich euro countries (thanks to white flight).
With BI prices will be adjusted and everybody is going to be equally poor - that's the goal of socialism.
>>76168579
>b-but everyone will cope
>people two standard deviations below the norm will cope when no job that currently pays $10 an hr exists 30 yrs in the future
>>76168440
>Basic income vs. QE
What I like as an idea is a lottery. Everyone can take out 2500 Euro per month from a central QE authority. However, each month there is a lottery and the more you took out in that month, the more likely is it for you to win.
What can you win?
Well, A. you can win a 2 year tour in the military and alternatively B. you can win a 2 year job in social services and C. you can win being sterialized if you are a gibsmee woman so you cannot have more gibsmee kids etc.
>>76168261
They actually don't unless they claim some sort of disability which is hard to prove when you are young.
Lazy fuckers in Switzerland under the age of 25 years old can only receive 200 days of unemployment benefits, after that they have to apply for social help, which is like a loan and they will have to pay it all back once they work again.
yes good goy vote for basic income so that the whole third world will come flooding into your country and breed like rabbits while the native tax paying population cant afford to have children
>>76168331
Oh yeah? Well, we call getting fucked from inhaling fine silica dust pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis.
>>76168699
Oh yeah, and standards of living for the lower class have remained the same for 300 years according to you economic retards.
>>76168489
This is actually a good idea,but most people cant gestion their money properly. And there would be lots of beggards and people dying in the streets due to poor management. Which is something that would lead to people to vote for welfare again. Either way that money would be wasted.
>>76168579
The industrial revolution of course being famed for the good working conditions, health and wealth of the working class :^)
>>76166652
Food in Switzerland costs more than twice as much as in the US. On average 25%-100% more than in Germany, with some things (e.g. cosmetic articles) costing 3 or 4 times as much.
t. German temporarily living with his parents in Switzerland and working as an unlearned help for 6 months. I can save almost 3000$ a month because wages here are also three times higher than in Germany.
>>76168809
of course you already know that in a society with a basic income tax is not paid through income but through consumption of goods which makes every tourist a tax payer if he buys a mars bar at the gas station.
>>76168843
That will always be a possibility no matter what you do. There has to be a cut off point. You can't spend all your welfare money then go looking for more, you can't spend all your basic income money and go looking for more either.
>>76168856
Transitional periods are always painful. It also didn't help that mercantilist infighting between the aristocracy was rampant .
>>76168304
>No, the poorest people in our society make much less than full-time $15 an hour.
What are you even talking about now? Both America and Australia have problems with low income workers not being able to gain full time employment, the difference is that low income Australians still earn significantly more than their American comrades.
Even when you factor in that the US heavily cooks the books on their poverty figures, the poverty rate is still 25% higher in America than it is here.
>>76168693
>Maybe not in the US. In Lisbon prices are already going up because people with more money than the average portuguese are moving in from rich euro countries (thanks to white flight).
That's the exact opposite of what BI does.
What you're experiencing is inflation caused by a wealthy minority bringing in new money from outside your economy, dramatically increasing the wealth gap and suppressing the value of your existing currency in circulation.
BI redistributes money from the top down and closes the wealth gap, while adding no new currency to the system, which preserves the value of the currency and stimulates consumption.
This form of redistribution is proven to work in stable societies (but not so well in ones that ship in loads of immigrants, sadly).
>>76169095
I'm talking about the dole you literal fuckwit.
>>76168994
You are understimating muh feels. That is why democracy sucks. If some retard goes bankrupt and dies in the street for no knowing how to manage his money,people would cry for him,and ask about "where has our decency go" and people would want welfare back. It is doomed to happen.
>>76169095
>>76169160
easy, fellas.
>>76168951
Lies. In Portugal commies want to give you 1000€ and retain 50% tax + consumption (VAT).
UBI changes absolutely nothing for the people - it is meant to put everyone under the boot of the State.
>>76168843
You just make the payments weekly, if someone can't budget for a week they're too retarded to live in modern society
>>76168951
We have that sort of tax her, called GST (Goods and Services tax), I think Poms have the same thing but it's called VAT, there's a 15% tax on everything so if anyone buys something they're paying into the system, that includes all our tourists from Germany and the UK
>>76165222
Fuck you. It is not specified wether it is paid to swiss or foreigners too. That is up to the legislation to decide, the initiative does not specify that.
Also, it never had a chance. Over 70% NO votes.
>>76169307
>retain 50% tax + consumption (VAT
how else are they going to get 1000€ for 10Mil. people? you think they`re just going to print it for another recession/depression?
>>76169397
yes but its different: for a UBI youve got something around 50%VAT, which pays for the UBI. income tax will be dropped in return, so the 50% plus cost of production is all there is to the price of any product/service.
>>76169160
>I'm talking about the dole you literal fuckwit.
What about it?
>>76169095
>That's the exact opposite of what BI does.
No it isn't. Most people don't even get a minimum wage (around 500€). But with UBI millions more will have it. That is "new" money.
>BI redistributes money
It's called Socialism. The state gets to take from some to give to others.
Being that lefties are clearly retarded and follow their feels instead of facts, how could this ever not lead to disaster?
>>76169512
What I meant to say is that UBI is not real change at all. It's just wellfare in disguise and plebs will eat it all up and think it's great.
Real change would be to stop taking people's hard earned money and stealing their property to give to those who do not contribute at all because muh feels. Fuck socialism.
>>76169679
>take from some
take from everyone you mean. whoever consumes more, pays more - thats a simple and very logical concept.
How much would the minimum wages collapse if this were to pass? Or would the cost of living instead adjust?
>>76169508
Well it is more or less, the "Initianten" sure want to include foreigners and that is why they worded the text as it is
>>76167225
>>76169679
>That is "new" money.
Are you thick or what? What's happening in your country is that money is coming in from outside your economy, money that your economy hasn't produced value for. With redistribution, no extra money is being brought in, so the net value of the currency remains the same. The only difference is that poor people put their money back into the economy, while rich people park their money into multi-national banks and shares that produce minimal value for your national economy.
>>76165222
If this makes sense to you then that is why your society will fall.
>>76169512
Currently NZ spends 56.4 billion annually on all forms of welfare, that's already $12,614 annually per person or $242 weekly which is survival amounts
>tiny country
>literally every country next to it is much cheaper
>lets give people enough free money that they can enjoy a high living standard by buying everything in neighbouring countries from foreign companies
This couldnt possibly go wrong.
>>76165222
>universal basic income
How does one get ahead?
>>76165347
Our government are unironic commies. They have so many plans for "x amount of new wind power plants in 5 years", "y amount of electric cars till 2020" and so on.
Just instead of doing it themselves they use taxes and subsidies to force the economy do adapt to their wishes.
>>76165222
There's a ton of shit jobs at minimum wage ... who's going to do them?
In my opinion the way forward in civilized countries not poised for destruction through immigration is not standard income, but negative income tax for the first 20 hours of labor only.
By incentivizing shorter work weeks you create full employment and you don't remove the impetus to work which is important for social stability.
People don't want to work shit jobs and pay taxes for other people to lounge about.
>>76170789
>There's a ton of shit jobs at minimum wage ... who's going to do them?
According to the deluded left, machines will.
>>76165347
>German
>Not Socialist
Pick one
>>76170789
>There's a ton of shit jobs at minimum wage ... who's going to do them?
No idea how it is in Switzerland, but in Germany our current welfare system is actually detrimental to finding people willing to do those jobs. Because more often than not, you end up getting almost the same as you would have gotten on welfare.
I don't think unconditional basic income is really a great idea, it could however still be slightly better than the system we have right now.
>>76170705
You get more than the basic income from having a good job.
Are all americans as stupid as you?
DUDE LET'S JUST TRY REBRANDING COMMUNISM AN INFINITE NUMBER OF TIMES UNTIL WE FINALLY GET WHAT WE WANT PASSED LMAO
I would have all of you deported to an Indian Reservation so you can actually experience the joys of what a society with "basic income" looks like.
>>76171347
I just think it's a lesser evil than the welfare state in its current form
>>76165540
It was 2200 euro which is low income for the Swiss. Its an incredibly expensive country.
bampt
>>76171420
>I just think it's a lesser evil than the welfare state in its current form
Whenever I hear people say this I can only assume they're being dishonest as, for all of the severe economic illiteracy the average person has, I cannot fathom anyone who did not have legit, non-meme mental retardation being completely unable to perceive how catastrophically bad giving everyone unconditional welfare is going to be for a society. Again, deport anyone who advocates this shit to an indian reservation.
If I was dictator here is how I would try to do it :
- true disability : nothing changes.
- people on welfare : minimal cash pay out, no loop hole EBT card, no luxury. Freedom and luxury is what you sacrifice for welfare.
- negative income tax on first 20 hours worked, single worker households get negative income tax on 40 hours.
>>76171741
>how catastrophically bad giving everyone unconditional welfare is going to be for a society
Well, tell us then.
>>76171741
>Omg it's 2016 if you don't know why your argument is wrong I'm not telling you
>>76166368
>stores adjust prices accordingly
This would only happen IF production fell. We are over-supplied in many products. As long as this over-supply maintained then we'd simply find ourselves buying more trinkets which would be good for tax reciepts as well as producers/servicve providers. There are some goods that would get more expensive as there is limited supply so it becomes much more 'worth what people are willing to pay'. Exaples of goods that would get more expensive are luxuary goods, physically scarce stuff (meat, jewelry) and houses. Houses could be offset in most of the west by building more damned houses.
The big question is whether or not production would fall. Would anyone work the shitty jobs? I think this depends where you set the amount of money given. In my opinion UBI should be about the same as full time work at minimum wage (though the difference between minimum wage and living wage needs to be addressed). If people decided to jack their shit jobs then the employers at these shit jobs would have to ask themselves if they can stay profitable while increasing wages and benefits to attract workers back.
I say again, a lot of the UBI, especially for the poorer segments of society, would be spent every month, generating tax and paying wages.
Nobody ITT who attacks UBI has proposed a decent solution to the looming mass unemployment.
Assume for a second it IS going to happen. What do?
as >>76166485 said, there will be rioting, possibly even civil war. Nobody wants that shit.
>putting $24,000,000,000 into the economy every month for no reason, with literally no increase in productivity
>what is a inflation
i thought the swiss were smart?
>>76173151
You've not read the thread. It's wealth distribution, they aren't going to just print more money.
>>76172425
Despite being a relative pain in the ass to get welfare under the current system, the number of people who leech off the system, have no drive (nor ever will) to improve their lot in life, live like subhuman degenerates and ruin any neighborhood they inhabit, overwhelmingly vote for leftists and more gibsmedat, waste all of their money on cigarettes and grocery shop at 7/11 and then claim their benefits aren't enough to live on, have shitloads of children out of wedlock, and generally just ruin societies are present in staggering, and constantly growing numbers. If you remove all of the barriers, both in terms of maximum income you're allowed to have before you get welfare as well as all the various work requirements, all of these problems are going to explode as the number of takers skyrockets and the number of producers plummets until you have economic collapse na d we're Venezuela 2.0
This isn't even hypothetical, Natives Americans who live on reservations and have their "tribal money" live in staggering poverty where almost no one works and EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. of the problems inherent to welfare statism is cranked up to 11. Meanwhile Native Americans who don't get shit because they're from unrecognized tribes have comparable statistics to regular Americans and generally do fine.
>>76171347
"If ye love wealth better than liberty..."
You might want to look at Sam Adam's role in the suppression of Shay's Rebellion, which was a struggle of the poor farmers against the wealthy bankers and merchants.
>>76173314
That would be the current situation, but once mass-scale automatization and efficient 3d printing become reality, unemployment will skyrocket and UBI will become an actual valid solution.
A couple of decent articles on UBI looking at it from both sides and offering an alternative.
>What's better: An unconditional basic income or a job guarantee?
http://www.dw.com/en/whats-better-an-unconditional-basic-income-or-a-job-guarantee/a-19305445
and
>A simple basic income delivers little benefit to complex lives
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6d328764-28d2-11e6-8ba3-cdd781d02d89.html#axzz4AhyBhSjk
ft links can be pretty funny. If it doesn't work, google the article name. Still no joy I'll screencap it.
>>76173595
>That would be the current situation, but once mass-scale automatization and efficient 3d printing become reality, unemployment will skyrocket and UBI will become an actual valid solution.
http://bastiat.org/en/twisatwins.html
Read a book nigger.
The luddite fallacy is horseshit
>>76173767
How about instead of deferring to somebody else's authority you explain how the issue of mass unemployment will be handled?
Just so we're clear we're talking about far fewer of the lower skilled jobs being available and more people than ever needing them.
>>76165222
>State gives away more than it brings in
>This is a good thing
Ugh.. every fucking time.
>>76165540
I live in geneva, 20m2 appartment/studio is at least 1k, and you need to pay your monthly insurance 400francs minimum too. That is the lowest you have to live with so 1500chf isnt enough
>>76165222
>>76165222
I think it was a scam of that particular party
check here http://www.tageswoche.ch/de/2016_6/basel/710794/
Work is boring, I'll take the free money
>>76170500
Would hate to see Australian numbers, I already pay nearly $1,500 a week in tax.
Literally 90% of those on Centrelink outside of pension should be cut. Studying useless degree while not working? cut. Haven't worked in over 12 months? Cut. Typical dole junkie, cut.
Fucking makes me lose my mind while I'm at work seeing these cock suckers that don't work coping dollars.
>>76165618
>I don't see people making $100K a year dropping out and living in squalor.
I am 29 my wife and I and make together $183K/year working in New York City. The reasons I don't stop working even though I would like to is:
1. If you stop working then your value in the labor market immediately drops off a cliff. So if you stop working you have to be SURE that you don't ever need to work again.
So considering this money needs to last I come to the second point:
2. $183k is great for a year but isn't going to feed my wife and I and our children for all of our lives.
And while that seems trite that leads immediately to 3...
3. Since I need to keep working in the short term, that means I need to keep living in this city in the short term, and this city is fucking expensive as hell.
Also, bonus:
4. Shit, now I'm paying a lot more in taxes.
When I was just myself living in Pittsburgh I could easily last 4 years on my $110k salary, and Pittsburgh is a fuckin nice city (in its nice parts) so that would be pretty sweet. But to keep this whole system churning for me and my family, I have to consider the above points, meaning a lot more moolah.
That being said I finally have the breathing room to donate several thousand dollars a year to the (catholic) church. I haven't kept close track but it's about $3k we've donated so far.
>>76175521
Wagie sounds mad
>>76173223
i know? it's still injecting liquidity into the economy?
printing money isn't the only way to create inflation.
>>76173069
>has proposed a decent solution to the looming mass unemployment.
1) It has never happened
2)Physical removal.
3)Child dont work anynore,if unemployment rises, 1 person could sustain a family as wages would go up,due the increase of productivity
>>76173223
>wealth distribution
Fuck,you people are dumb.
>>76167730
La suisse est déjà le pays le plus attractif du monde. Ça ne va pas changer grand chose !
On peut imaginer un délai de 5 ans en Suisse pour toucher le RBI.
Il n’est actuellement pas possible pour un étranger de venir en Suisse pour toucher l’aide sociale. Il n’y a aucune raison qu’il soit possible de venir en Suisse juste pour toucher un Revenu de Base Inconditionnel.
Il est à rappeler que pour avoir un permis de séjour en Suisse, il faut être capable de subvenir à ses besoins et à ceux de sa famille. Donc avoir une grosse fortune ou un emploi…. Toucher l’aide sociale peut être un motif de non renouvellement d’un permis de séjour pour un étranger !
>>76176350
>frenchy speak
what. the. fuck.
>>76167475
What happens if everyone on basic income decides to take a year off and chill?
>>76176161
>1) It has never happened
Automation? We've never before had the technology. Now we very much do.
>2)Physical removal.
Just to be clear, you're talking about eradicating large swathes of the population right?
>1 person could sustain a family as wages would go up,due the increase of productivity
Meanwhile in the real world...
UBI would deal specifically with the last one. And yes we're talking an increase in the top level tax. Check out the Financial Times article I posted above. It roughly costs some kinda scheme in the UK. Doesn't seem all that drastic to me. Especially when the rich are getting richer at a faster pace than ever before.
If I had a choice of what I'm doing now and 3K a month I'd quit my job and go live on my farm
gg socialists and enjoy paying my neet bux, no fuckin way I'm going to work
>>76168033
>patents, ip laws, copyright
>trying to disprove capitalism by corpocractic examples
>implying you guys didn't stop being capitalistic in somewhere in mid of XIX century
The swiss are the last beacon of light shining from Europe as it slowly dies.
I hope they can hold out as long as possible.
>>76166639
Really that dumb?
So why is Germany the richest and most influential country in the eu? Still having welfare.
But that's the reason why Poland is so fucked and everone with a bit if brain leaving the country. Only export is apples and prostitution.
And people indeed have to do something for the money in germany.
Poland seriously can't be more cucked by America.
>>76176578
>What happens if everyone on basic income decides to take a year off and chill?
Then they will never be employed again because future potential employers will see how $15k was enough to get Johnny to fall off the face of the earth for 12 months.
>>76174191
It will be handled in the very same way when distribution of jobs got rapidly rebalanced.
Just like hunters-gatherers got axed by farmers, bowmakers had to bow down to gunsmiths, spinners were told to gtfo by automatic looms.
In place of old jobs newer ones will be created, that will either suck in all previous workers, or by the massive jump in productivity one breadwinner will be again capable of providing funds for one's family, effectively cutting workforce by half.
>>76176787
>Automation? We've never before had the technology. Now we very much do.
Just like we never had steam engines until some Scottish faggot thought it would be fun to cut costs because horses aren't cheap shit.
Thousands of people lost their jobs in agriculture, handicraft, transportation, and other branches of economy, and I don't think britbongs collapsed from that massive jump in unemployment.
>>76177387
>or by the massive jump in productivity one breadwinner will be again capable of providing funds for one's family, effectively cutting workforce by half.
As we see though, and as I highligheted above, the people are not seeing their share of the increase in productivity. Because people currently NEED a job to survive, large companies are more cutthroat than ever. Even the supposed 'nice' ones, Apple and Google, do their utmost to avoid tax. This is outright greed. If they won't fix it themsleves -and the won't- then they must be forced to by means of higher taxes towards redistribution.
>>76176787
>We've never before had the technology.
The jump from rural to urban areas was way more drastical than what we are living today. The manufacturing sector was able to absorve it,the same way that the service sector is able to absorve part of the manufactuting sector. The economy evolves,and the workforce wouñd be concentrated in more intelectual heavy areas.
> Just to be clear, you're talking about eradicating large swathes of the population right?
Yes, lf the population is too big and unsustainable that most resources would have to be alocated on pure waste,yes, sterilization and selective genocide would be needed.
> UBI would deal specifically with the last one. And yes we're talking an increase in the top level tax. Check out the Financial Times article I posted above. It roughly costs some kinda scheme in the UK. Doesn't seem all that drastic to me. Especially when the rich are getting richer at a faster pace than ever before.
UBI kills the economy to sustain waste. So pretty much resources would just be wasted on nothing. The acumulation of capitals is what generates progress and an increase of wealth. If the accumulated capital is wasted on nothing productive you are undermining progress and the overall economy.
>>76177875
>As we see though, and as I highligheted above, the people are not seeing their share of the increase in productivity
Due inflation m8. Wages have go severily up. But central banks went nuts. If it wasnt for all the technolofical leaps that happened in the last century the sustem woukd have collapsed.
>>76177950
>Yes, lf the population is too big and unsustainable that most resources would have to be alocated on pure waste,yes, sterilization and selective genocide would be needed.
This is fuckin retarded. We have plenty of resources on Earth, the driver of poverty around the world is political corruption. We are trying to literally give food to Africans and the reason they starve anyway is that their local governments won't let the food get to them. The real problem is their native governments, and if we were compassionate we would take over their country and administer their government for them.
>>76177875
>currently NEED a job
was this EVER not a case?
>Apple and Google
>nice companies
good goy
But anyways, cut out of government anything that isn't military, internal security or judiciary, and there will be no fucking way for big companies to be cutthroats, because people will be free to flip a bird at their job offers and free to flip a bird at their products.
And if you want redistribution, I greatly recommend GuLAG tour, they were great at redistributing wealth.
>>76178213
>This is fuckin retarded. We have plenty of resources on Earth
Capital=/=resources. Rhe increase of wealth is die the capitalization of society. > the driver of poverty around the world is political corruption.
No. Poverty is the natural state of mankind. Hunter gatherers were poorer than any African Shithole that you can name.
> We are trying to literally give food to Africans and the reason they starve anyway is that their local governments won't let the food get to them.
Also the heavily subsidized western food kills all the local agriculture. I dont really know what your point is.
> The real problem is their native governments, and if we were compassionate we would take over their country and administer their government for them.
I still dont know what is your critique. People are poor or wealthy depending on how much they capitalize themselfs. A person that works with heavy machinery is worth 1000 times more than people with just shovels. If you dont invest in capital,you just get economic stagnation.
>>76177950
>The manufacturing sector was able to absorve it,the same way that the service sector is able to absorve part of the manufactuting sector.
The difference is the manufacturing sector produces new wealth through exports. Service economies run massive trade deficits for the most part.
>Yes, lf the population is too big and unsustainable that most resources would have to be alocated on pure waste,yes, sterilization and selective genocide would be needed.
A bit realpolitik there. Do you not think that any other way would be preferable to what you've just described though?
>The acumulation of capitals is what generates progress and an increase of wealth.
I do see your point here. And I'm not proposing a wealth cap or anything that drastic.
>>76167633
This.
Shoo Shoo Comie Stooge.
Where does the money to fund this come from?
>>76178215
>was this EVER not a case?
Til now, no. But when there aren't enough jobs your options are benefits or starvation (and riots, maybe even the odd revolution)
>cut out of government anything that isn't military, internal security or judiciary, and there will be no fucking way for big companies to be cutthroats, because people will be free to flip a bird at their job offers and free to flip a bird at their products.
People are already free to choose. And don't you see value in for example government rules against monopolies?
>>76179480
>trade deficits
Nothing wrong with this. Importing is not bad,and never was
> Do you not think that any other way would be preferable to what you've just described though?
I dont think so. Overpopulation is going to be a huge problem in the future,and unless goverments start to steralize people we would end up having big ass wars. I see small scale genocides as a better solution to it.
> And I'm not proposing a wealth cap or anything that drastic.
I know,but welfare is just wasting money that encourages a none productive way of life. It is simple. I would rather have unemployed people in the army or studying than on welfare.
>>76167633
this is just for bread a day.
housing is 1k for 20m2 in some places, 400fr for health insurance, say 50-100 for transportation
200-400 for food
some for taxes
100 for electricity and water
>>76179753
>against monopolies
>government
>AGAINST monopolies
>out of all things, government working against monopolies
wew lad
If there are no enough jobs, you create them.
One fucking thousands years ago there were no electricians, coders, car drivers or spess men.
Now they all are here.
They all got out of the marvelous place that will provide us with new jobs after automation hits.
Human ingenuity.
I say with full confidence that this is purely a ruse to kill Swiss sovereignty.
If the Swiss were to introduce this, then Switzerland would become the new destination for every shitskin refugee/immigrant. They would overpower the country's democracy and change the citizenship rules at best, or plunge the country into civil war at worst.
I like the Swiss and don't want to see them fall to ruin.
>>76180216
immigrant need 5 years to be able to get RBI, need to integrate themselves and be able to provide for their family to get a permit
>>76179681
taxes.
UK gov spending last year 732bn
222bn on welfare
55bn debt interest
50 million people aged 18 or over
£750/month = 450bn a year.
450 - (222+55) = 170bn to be found from tax increases. Remember also that UBI would increase spsnding and tax reciepts.
Obviously I'm making a lot of assumptions and missing some of the costs involved but I also didn't account for the administrative cost of the current welfare system. We also spend like 40bn a year on aid. The amounts involved are large but not prohibitive.
>>76180216
also if they stop working its a reason for expulsion
i dont mind shitskin coming here if he works to build my road
>everyone gets $3000
>prices rise all around the country
>$3k is the new zero
>faggot lefties push for government control of prices
>industry leaves Switzerland as a result
>the economy falls apart
GG welfare parasites
>>76180327
Tens of thousands flooding in at a time will change all that.
Not that I'm saying basic income is an objectively good idea to begin with. Inflation would quickly render it meaningless.
Basic income requires both population control measures and a virtual post-scarcity economy. Switzerland has neither.
>>76179762
>Nothing wrong with this. Importing is not bad,and never was
Not saying it inherently is. Just that large long term deficits aren't desirable.
> Overpopulation is going to be a huge problem in the future,and unless goverments start to steralize people we would end up having big ass wars. I see small scale genocides as a better solution to it.
I see where you're coming from with regard to overpopulation. I just think seeking an alternative to genocide is a worthwhile cause. Such action is also pretty unlikely unless shit goes really tits up.
> I would rather have unemployed people in the army or studying than on welfare.
Fair enough. The first article I linked here
>>76173659
is relevant to this and well worth a read if you haven't. Compares UBI to 'job guarantee schemes' which is what you're proposing.
libertarian conservative here. i like basic income when done right. like in USA you could give everybody 12K annually, finance it by 25% flat income tax (so if you make 48K per year you would be 'revenue neutral', make less your income gets subsidized, and make more and you pay income tax but always less than 25%), get rid of social security, medicare, medicaid, obamacare, all means tested programs and the the like. and fire shitloads of civil servants, streamline public sector. it is actually a fiscally conservative proposition.
>>76179974
Ostensibly against. You can still choose between Lockheed and Boeing right?
I am sure more jobs will be created as people struggle on. At its most basic, UBI is about ending that struggle. That and a bit of long overdue redistribution.
>>76180737
See. Easy. The only issue with this (and the one I proposed) is that the $12kpa or £760/month wouldn't be enough to for the severely disabled to survive on.
Unless we just go full eugenics...
I'm a sozi and you know it
*Shakes Aryan ass*
>>76180679
>Not saying it inherently is. Just that large long term deficits aren't desirable.
Things like research papers and such arent taken into account in trade balances,and research creates huge amounts of wealth if fruitful. Our economies arent unproductive,we just went a step further in specialization.
> Such action is also pretty unlikely unless shit goes really tits up.
Look at pic and guess were the population is growing the most. Shit is going to get crazy,with anual refugee quotas of 50 million people,not even kidding, if something is not done. Africa has less arable land than north America alone.
>>76181467
> Shit is going to get crazy,with anual refugee quotas of 50 million people
I've heard 500 million to Europe by 2100. Also not kidding. I'm not contesting that overpopulation is an issue. I just don't yet accept your solution though admittedly have none of my own. I guess cutting off aid, building wall and going full holodomor might work.
make it 700-800 CHF. I lived 3 months in switzerland with 2000 CHF
>>76178732
My point is we don't need to lower the number of people on earth through genocide or any other means. I argued this point by arguing against the proposed reason why this was first suggested, that we supposedly don't have the resources to sustain a larger population. We do! The only reason we see scarcity in the world is due to corruption-made artificial scarcity.
>>76181756
>we supposedly don't have the resources to sustain a larger population. We do! The only reason we see scarcity in the world is due to corruption-made artificial scarcity.
Never discussed this,. Just pointing out that it will be a deterriment to the economy. On top of that,the African population will have to emigrate due to the lack of arable land,and then is whem shit is going to heat up. Look at the map. >>76181467
Africa is going to fuck the world in more ways than one if we dont sterialize part of their population.
>>76166919
>which isn't a good option either.
I agree with this sentiment and it's one of the worst parts. As horrible as ubiquitous automation could be for the average citizen if a nation isn't absolutely prepared for that transition, some neo-Luddite anti-technology stance that fights for a regressive system is no better.
>>76180737
>libertarian conservative here. i like basic income when done right. like in USA you could give everybody 12K annually, finance it by 25% flat income tax (so if you make 48K per year you would be 'revenue neutral', make less your income gets subsidized, and make more and you pay income tax but always less than 25%), get rid of social security, medicare, medicaid, obamacare, all means tested programs and the the like. and fire shitloads of civil servants, streamline public sector. it is actually a fiscally conservative proposition.
I was running some numbers on this earlier. Just for reference:
Federal US government collected 2.52 trillion in tax revenue in 2012, source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_tax_revenue_by_state#Fiscal_Year_2012
There are 134 million households in the USA, source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_households
So the first number divided by the second number is about $19K per household per year.
I do not know if this is a good idea or not. But there you go.
>>76181982
>>we supposedly don't have the resources to sustain a larger population. We do! The only reason we see scarcity in the world is due to corruption-made artificial scarcity.
>Never discussed this,. Just pointing out that it will be a deterriment to the economy. On top of that,the African population will have to emigrate due to the lack of arable land,and then is whem shit is going to heat up. Look at the map. >>76181467
>Africa is going to fuck the world in more ways than one if we dont sterialize part of their population.
We don't have to sterilize them though, and they don't have to emigrate. We just have to pay them to stay where they are. And by pay I just mean send them food.
>>76182205
>We just have to pay them to stay where they are.
Self correction: we pay them, AND they stay where they are. We don't pay them TO stay where they are because they shouldn't have the option to come here in any case.
>>76182205
>We just have to pay them to stay where they are
That is pure waste that would just end up hurting us in the long run. No we dont have to pay Africans because they behave like chimps. Chinese alredy took control of that situation by themselfs. If they choose to keep fucking like monkeys,and not thinking in the long term they should pay for their acts. Europe and America are not huge charities. Either way African refugees will come to Europe and replace Europeans,if our politic situation doesnt change soon.
>>76182683
>Europe and America are not huge charities
>primary religion: christianity
uh, nigger?
>>76182820
>>Europe and America are not huge charities
>>primary religion: christianity
>uh, nigger?
(((Jesus))) was Jewish. Coincidence?
>>76173069
Negative income tax can both create jobs at the low end (by removing minimum wage as a barrier to economic viability) and reduce average working hours.
For the foreseeable future that gives governments plenty of levers to sustain full employment.
>>76165222
cuck
I foresee rent going up by about $3000 a month.
>>76165222
Printed paper is only as valuable as it's perceived to be. If you print money that wasn't a product of wealth creation, it doesn't hold value.
