What are your thoughts on basic income?
>>76129628
gibbs me dat
commie pipe dream
>>76129628
While I do think it's filthy socialist bullshit I can't think of a better way to enter the automated future and still use currency. Maybe a mass reduction in population? They all sound like jewish solutions to me though.
>>76129628
I was taught you had to earn your money.
>>76129628
It's slightly left and massively backwards.
It'd be good for me, but unfair for people who actually give a shit about this life.
>Basic income
Literally hyper inflation with imaginary FIAT
Enjoy paying 6 Gazillion shekel for a loave of bread
>>76129628
Better than current welfare system.
Everyone who says
>muh communism
is retarded and does not understand what communism, socialism or capitalism is.
Only if it's about 6k/yr, in the form of matching pay
And if it replaces the standard deduction and personal exemption, and welfare and food stamps, minimum wage, etc
And comes along with a flattening of the tax brackets
>>76129628
Unconditional Basic Income? No.
Make it so that you must be working or doing something for that state check.
There will always be some kind of job which humans can do even if automation becomes huge.
It's something that makes sense for a post-scarcity society, where all jobs required to run society have been fully automated and there's no need for people to continue to work. People can continue to pursue science and art, but won't need to worry themselves with pointless jobs.
However, we don't have that society yet, and for our current society it wouldn't work so well. Furthermore, the more that we go after it in the present will only push the time when it CAN work further and further into the future.
>>76129628
Basically another form of dysgenics. It would be useful only if people earning basic income (=those too dumb to be actually useful members of society) would be sterilized. That only could move the mankind forward. Otherwise this is just a communism, a revolt of the underclass.
>>76130028
Also this.
If it's going to be implemented all other social security needs to be removed.
I don't know that 6k/year is going to be enough though.
Makes total sense
Im also registered Libertarian
>>76130082
That would be some form of negative income tax, not UBI.
>>76129628
killing the niggers, spics, fags, dykes, camelfuckers and kikes isn't left or right, it's forward
>>76129628
a way to give us the crumbs when the era of automation comes, and to avoid violent revolution on our overlords in case of mass unemployment
>>76129628
Awful. Basically the epitome of r-selection.
Resources aren't free.
you know they make poor people spend money on food with foodstamps and don't just give them a check for whatever right?
poor people are notoriously bad with money. hand them a hundred dollar check and they will spend it all on drugs while their kids starve to death.
>>76130193
6k/year is about how much the current welfare system costs per capita, at least in the US, you could replace the welfare with UBI and it would not cost more.
It's a fucking pipe dream.
Until we have population control measures and virtual artificial scarcity already in place, there is no way we can give out money for nothing for any sustainable amount of time and without huge economic fallout.
>>76129628
It's inevitable, really. Further automatization and increasingly capable and intelligent robotics will cause a lot of jobs to simply disappear.
>>76130322
That would be their problem.
>>76130233
Unsurprising, considering that the US libertarian party is a bunch of libs who didn't get the memo about their name and picked a wrong one.
>>76130260
Nice rare flags, Anchorage lad.
Im alright with the government giving you enough food for three squares a day. Nothing fancy, just the bare nutrient basics.
>>76130193
No amount of money is enough. People have infinite wants.
If that 6k were in the form of matching pay, you'd have anybody earning 6k already at 12k. And really, they're probably earning more than that.
Plus, there's state, local and charitable welfare. The federal government is not responsible for keeping you alive.
>>76130169
I'm sure the wealthy kike bankers and capitalists in the financial sector are making great contributions to society.
>>76130390
yea but then the libturds would be demanding welfare additionally
>>76130322
>poor people.
>hand them a hundred dollar check and they will spend it all on drugs while their kids starve to death.
I don't know why my sides just died a million deaths.
>>76130431
>>76130387
Also never seen Waddinxveen. Nice
>>76130431
it's complete bullshit but i figured i'd help some people fill out their collection. i feel like a dude catfishing little boys on the internet sometimes
>>76130466
That's a different problem.
>>76130322
You got any sources to back that up, faggot?
>>76130360
>population control measures
We already have it. Whites are not reproducing.
>>76129628
>give everyone a living stipend just for existing
Where would that money come from and how long until it ran out?
What's to keep vendors and corporations from simply jacking up prices since everyone now has money to blow?
What would it do to our already shaky economy?
This would set the precedent that people are entitled to money just because they exist. the money is intended to get you through your life, so it will be argued that some people's lives are harder than others and they need more money to get by.
it will turn into
>I need extra $1000/mo for birth control
>I need extra $1000/mo because of my PTSD I got from the internet
>I need extra $1000/mo because raycism n shieeet
>>76130542
Ay that's alright. I'm glad they also updated it.
>>76130466
investors are very very important for entrepeneurship, yes
Eliminate welfare programs (including health care ect) and replace it with basic income.
You'd save a lot of money and retards who can't manage their money will perish like nature intended
>>76129628
gosh I wish I didn't have to work
>>76129628
I'm fine with basic universal income in exchange for basic universal labor.
>its a communism 2.0 episode
>>76130577
Your definition of 'useful' and 'contributing' are stupid. What are kike financial terrorists like George Soros contributing to society? They are billionaires.
You're a pawn of the wealthy elite trying to demonize poor and suffering people.
>>76129628
We already have it
It's shit, make people entitled, lazy, useless and NEET
>>76130338
ok? leftists will ask for $6k a month. they'd never settle for such a small payout, they want to have enough money from the government to pay for a place and buy all their food. they want the ability to not work
>>76129628
I don't have much of an issue with basic income per se, but if we do it we'd better sure as shit close the borders. Also can't do it on a per person basis, because people would just keep having children they can't support.
>>76130235
Okay thanks.
>>76130338
Fair enough do you believe that they would be able to survive on this?
>>76130440
Agree.
Don't you think there would be mass rioting if people couldn't survive?
How much is state/local welfare compared to federal?
>>76129628
If community pays to it`s members it`s ok. If community is required to pay to xenos - it`s wrong.
Libs literally trying to pull us closer and closer to communism every year.
>>76129628
Only a realistic possibility once we reach a post scarcity society with a nearly fully automated workforce.
>>76129679
>>76129728
>>76129772
>>76129784
How sad, very close-minded and bitter.
>>76130682
Would love it, but do you really believe any parliament will sign a bill that will create millions of bums starving in the cities?
Shits retarded and not sustainable. You see see an eventual economic collapse from a mile away.
Crackpot fucking insanity that must be trampled and destroyed.
>>76130753
do you think soros just woke up magically started geting free money for no reason? you don't think he made wise choices to get him there? should people be killed and their money redistributed as soon as they surpass a certain income?
i wouldn't say no but im just a burden on society
i have a feeling once they give a basic income it would mean that they would add conditions to it over time
and you couldn't turn it away either meaning you become a slave
>>76129734
Well and thats what i fear the most there is no dialog. All i hear is automation+population =UBI. Wheres the debate? Eugenics when?
>>76129876
why would i get any gov help when i dont need it? shouldnt those who are in dire need get more money? i am not an expert but i have some ideas about who should we help, since i have another job i go and elect some representatives every 4 year who decide who gets how much
I make robotic/control systems for a living kek. Make heps of money off contracts with companies automating production lines. I remember back in in we were given lectures about not feeling bad about putting people out of their shitty relative tasks because it means they can do something else less menial. I have personally put around 300 people out of jobs and I kek when I do it.I had one manufacturer that employed 35 people screwaing caps on bottles. I made a machine that worked 20x as fast as all of them for the price of two of their annual salaries.
There fault for not moving into the current year and getting a qualification
>>76129628
Kill all the useless eaters.
Im so sick of this shit. It doesnt matter whether you are for or against this type of thing, its pics like in the OP that make all these debates useless. Everything is framed as a part of the overall progress of mankind, or a human right. That makes it no longer an issue of policy or government action, but a debate over human rights. Which is bullshit, turning every single form of government wellfare into a human rights issues makes the actual effectiveness of a government policy irrelevant when it really is the only thing that matters. Not every policy decision is a question of human rights, and trying to make it so ignores the central issue of whether a change should be made or not. We are not going to legislate ourselves to utopia, if it was possible it would have been done by any other government at any time so stop talking about as if government can magically make society perfect
>>76130082
Jobs for the sake of having jobs is how the USSR and every single commie country went belly up. Endless projects destined for the garbage bin are entirely demotivating and degenerative to employees and work culture.
>>76130781
I'd say double any earnings they make up to the first 6k - turning it into 12k.
The rules for the federal government should be as simple as possible. Of course, everybody has their favorites they want to add. But the states should be the ones making it complicated. The more local, the more responsive they have to be to an imbalanced level of handouts.
So, on top of one very simple federal system, Texas can add 3 extra rules on top, while California will have 3000 extra rules. Can't stop the bureaucratic urge, but maybe you can redirect it to do the least amount of harm.
>>76129628
I'm fine with universal basic income.
As soon as we deport all of the mexicans, get rid of birthright citizenship for illegals (retroactive -- anchor babies and grandchildren have to go back to honduras) and build a wall, and do away with all other welfare programs.
>>76130870
>People don't want to work for a living
Man these people are so closed minded and bitter, wanting gibemedats all the time.
>>76130808
>How much is state/local welfare compared to federal?
Depending on how you count, maybe 2/3rds as much or about the same. A third of it comes from federal taxes, then is disbursed to the states based on population.
Sure I never wanted to work anyway
>>76131150
There has to be some value people can provide. If they refuse to provide that value then they don't get help.
It's not so much that people should just have jobs. Instead they should be forced to provide value if they are being given money to potentially waste and never provide anything themselves.
Anyone working everyday just to get awful NEET tier incomes will have motivation to find something new because they'd be getting paid under what current minimum wage full time is (6k/year)
>>76129628
Universal basic income is a better option than welfare as it is currently practiced in that it does not punish those who are productive nor reward those who are not, rather it provides for all equally, and you are free to be productive and earn beyond that basic income if you so desire.
Eventually we will have to bring about such a system for there simply will not be enough work for all, so what other option is there? Leave them to die?
>>76129628
Great idea. I should get more than all the others though.
>>76129628
"Forward" was the old Progressive and Bolshevik salute. It's the reason the oldest still-running Yiddish language newspaper is called the Jewish Daily Forward.
>>76129628
can I unconditionally refuse to support this
Doom of civilization. If it ever happens, I'm siding with the robots and hope they kill off everyone.
It'd be a reasonable and relatively efficient replacement for the clusterfuck of entitlements we have now, but the Left wouldn't want to remove those entitlements. They'd want to add the UBI on top of them, and then ramp the UBI to the maximum amount possible, and then exclude anyone making over a certain amount from receiving it.
It should really be a tool to consolidate and gradually reduce welfare until it is eliminated altogether.
>>76129628
I like the negative income tax better, serves the same purpose but without the universal part of the basic income.
>>76131370
Value is subjective. I don't see value in 99% of today's entertainment industry and I know many who agree. Yet the market decides entertainers should get massive financial rewards. An actress in a movie gets paid 10, 100, often 1000 times as much for essentially doing a high budget school play as the guy working special effects, who spent years of real effort in tech education.
Could be a thing once a majority of jobs are automated and the only jobs available are Scientists, Engineers, and IT guys, but even then that would still require the extinction of Service jobs which won't happen for a long time.
Even then, it would cause stagnation in technological advances more than likely, so we need to be sure we're happy with where we are when/if we install it.
Either way, it won't (or atleast shouldn't) happen within the next 50 years.
>hurr durr we need to import 3rd worlders to pay for our pensions and welfare and shiet
>hurr durr we need UBI because robots will be doing all the work
Make up your damn mind because this contradictory propaganda is driving me batty.
>>76129628
>What are your thoughts on basic income?
Completely unaffordable.
Will cause the collapse of the government, the economy and society.
Anyone who supports it should be sterilized for the good of humanity.
>>76131764
The Service industry will be the 1st to go once automation starts and autistic millennials who'd rather punch buttons than talk to strangers take over the reigns.
>>76129628
Good idea. Most people will not be cognitively capable of socially useful labor in the future, and the economy has to be kept going somehow.
>>76131758
This. Morality and values has no place in economics, except insofar as it influences demand. Economic value is determined by supply and demand, not by what sounds nice and feels good.
We may think that being a teacher is far more important to society than being an actress, but the reality is that there are millions of people who can teach, and only a few who can act for shit, and even less openings in large movies for said actors, so supply and demand dictates that the latter is paid far more.
Trying to reverse that only disrupts the economy and fucks things up. You can't change the real economic value through legislation.
>>76131750
In the US that was implemented as the Earned Income Credit. It's almost like matching pay, but hard to calculate. And, it's on top of everything else.
Somebody needs to promote "taking out the trash" for the current tax and welfare code. Just start again, but this time, the whole set of rules has to be knowable. So anyone voting to make it more complicated should have to recite their new version, in detail, from memory.
>>76131758
Well value is always set by the market. It's still better off having them contribute something than nothing and it would prevent mass rioting from people who can't afford to survive.
>>76131764
Also
> 50 years
Compare the year 1966 to The Current Year in terms of tech and jobs available
>>76129628
kike scam.
>>76132023
Price is set by the market. Value is set by the individual.
Its a good idea, but im afraid that liberals will take control of the program and try to use it for social engineering purposes.
>>76129628
Just another way to invite shitskins into good countries and ruin them. Then there will be no income for anyone.
>>76132177
Individuals make up the market.
>>76129628
I'd trade it for our current welfare system and I'm a trump supporter
>>76129628
lefties actually think people would do more than turning into state paid porch monkeys if they don't have to work and be productive. people who are creative and want to do their own shit will find a way without it.
>>76129628
it'll be needed when our wonderful robot overlords take over.
>>76129628
If humans were inherently honorable then it would work, but in real life it will end with way less productivity, and incredible inflation. Those with the means of production would become masters even more than they are now, and those dependent on the income would be serfs or at the very least mindless supporters of the state.
It will be a good idea when machines eventually replace most manual labor, but that's a while away. It would also be a good idea when humans stabilize at lower population levels, but there are active movements against that now.
>>76129628
sure instead of welfare of any kind, sounds more fair than what we have now.
>>76129628
I think it works
>>76132017
Sounds like a plan. Tax code is a disaster over here as well. Pay 52% for over €50.000 over here, no idea where they actually spend those billions on.
>>76132265
So? You can get an average of individual's demands but it's a lossy average.
>>76132357
Not sure how to reply. I'll go with "gtfo, fag"
>>76132324
If you're a trump supporter you'll take anything
>>76129628
If it's possible financially and we cut all welfare and government assistance programs for it then sure, I'm in favor. Not quite sure how it's economically viable though. The economy would need to be creating a LOT of wealth to get enough back in taxes to fund UBI.
>>76132619
not argument, (((you)))
>>76129628
If it's not left or right, why are you using language of the left?
>muh progress
This term has no definition, it's just muh feels.
>>76129846
Shoo shoo goldbugs
>>76132683
nope, im definitely not taking commie kike scams.
The same as it's always been:
It won't destroy economies or the world like the naysayers think it will.
There may be better options, but nobody has put one forth yet.
We WILL have to deal with widespread unemployment (we already have this!) as automation progresses and puts more and more people out of work.
If you don't like guaranteed basic income, come up with a better plan to deal with all the "useless" people from automation. Preferably an actual solution and not just, "lol we kill dem all lmao"
>>76129628
It's too little too late. Both left and right are wrong. The left thinks eventually they can placate the masses by giving them free shit - they can't, and the right doesn't give as shit about anyone but themselves and fomenting the very unrest which will lead to them being dethroned through violent upheaval.
>>76132580
Yeah I'm just saying that's how it works.
>>76132868
Communist governments love the mantra of national goods being better than foreign goods, even though individually, people don't mind them.
Trump wants to limit your freedom to buy foreign goods at the price the buyer and seller agreed upon. He's not pro-freedom.
because our neet and sjw problem aren't bad enough. basically giving people money to pursue being full time degenerates instead of killing them. just cuck my shit up senpai
>>76130870
>believing that people deserve what they work for by putting the interest of others before their own is close-minded
how about you go do basic income in another society then with all the people who support basic income?
OH right!
People who support basic income prefer to have others work for their interest and not work for the interest of other, therefore the state would go instantly bankrupt because it'd be a society of NEETs.
I guess that explain why you want to build this in a rich and hardworking society which is so tolerant and decadent that work is not even a social obligation.
>>76133067
>Trump wants to limit your freedom to buy foreign goods at the price the buyer and seller agreed upon. He's not pro-freedom.
sorry kike, no more cheap china shit.
even chinks are red pilled on it and they're smuggling in our american made products because they dont kill their babies.
>>76133067
Isn't that the cost of maintaining American jobs?
>>76133067
trump loves the free market, but what apparently you and the entire libertarian party can't understand is that the free market doesn't work if other countries don't play by the rules.
>>76130653
Abusing the monetary and financial systems to siphon wealth from people who actually work (be it bill gates worth 50billion$ or some poor guy making 10k$ a year) is not beneficial.
>>76129628
Extremely shortsighted and impossible to fund. Half the support comes from entitled Marxists,
and the other half from people who think technology only kills jobs.
>>76130870
>oh, I'm Squidward, and I have to work for a living! Boohoohoo!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz3OeROEt4M
>>76133249
Hard work is a meme, senpai. Being a hard-working factory slave from Cancerous Shitcreek, India, won't make you rich or your country prosperous. As it is, very few people today actually produce value for society, probably not more than 15%.
>>76129628
shit communist meme
>>76129772
>"""""earn"""""
That's because you're a cuck. The rich do nothing of the sort. """""Earn""""" your bread is what the rich tell the middle class in order to keep a class war going between them and the poor.
If you get rid of welfare and give everyone an unconditional basic income there will *still* be gibsmedat complainers. It'll never be enough for the parasite class.
>>76133683
How the fuck is it impossible to fund.
You literally just take the money from the already existing welfare system and redirect it to basic income.
I swear 90% of the people who oppose this do not understand basic income. EVERYONE would get a small amount of money (around 500$ per month in the US for example). It would not be enough to stop working completely unless you want to live in the middle of nowhere with no luxuries. It would however be a significant amount to help people working minimum wage, people unable to get a full time job or students.
>>76133878
UBI isn't about lefty wants and complaints. It's just a theory of how a future society where goods are no longer scarce but resources are could work.
>>76133878
all you have to do is look at niggers who sell their EBT for 70% of the price then spend all of their money at the club that weekend.
basic income would actually be WORSE than our current welfare system because they would just use that money for retarded shit then starve.
it WOULD be better if they died because of that but we all know liberals would bitch and whine and ask for EBT again on top of basic income.
>>76133732
What should people be doing then? Not earning their money? Not working hard?
>>76129628
As retarded as the mongoloids who advocate for it.
>>76134116
Work for mutual benefit instead of giving into corporatocrat propaganda like morons.
I'd support basic income of we sterilized people who don't work.
>>76133067
You can wipe your ass with a freedom but soon you will be living in a non-country if you keep doing that.
I wouldn't mind if it was a fair competition but if your companies can't compete in your own country your are out of businesses.
They always can do more and cheaper. And it's funny because here Germans use Poles to do it cheap and then sell it to us cheaper than we could do because we have to pay taxes.
May be possible in 100-200 years when machines do everything, right now it isn't realistic now. I heard if you are brown and go to some rich european country you can get free housing and income and also be able to fuck any girl you want
>>76134250
If you're the small guy you don't really have any options to negotiate what you get.
How do you ever expect to earn enough with that sort of attitude?
>>76134104
What do you suggest as a solution to inevitable poverty and unemployment as automation increases?
>>76133689
>implying every reward of work isn't just
>implying that because the reward isn't fair one must push for a system that is the most unfair of all
>"As it is, very few people today actually produce value for society, probably not more than 15%."
I believe most of those claims are aimed at the all powerful boogeymans of communism, the bougeoi, the administrators, the capitalist merchants either thoses or something close to it.
It is common to see people with thoses belief nowadays, that work is purely manual, but the truth is that if mankind wanted to do away with thoses people and replace them by machine, we could every secondary sector job could be heavily automatized do you realize this fact?
What pay is not merely "effort", any limp man can haul stone from dawn to night but only few man could manage to work to build device to perform thoses task with unrivaled speed and efficiency.
It is true that it could be said that it is most unkind to force people to work to live, but it's impossible to say it's unfair.
Man in it's most natural state is close to an animal and survival is all that we can offer most, at the cost of "effort" of course.
"effort" which is in fact rewarded with the ability to integrate futher and acquire more skills as demonstrated by India who now tries to spend it's citizen hard earned riches into education.
You think work is unfair, and you're right but only on the scale of an individual.
It can be said that this is the shame of communism, claiming collectivism at it's most purest form while denying the opposed ideology's form of collectivism.
>>76134708
Gas the worthless niggers and shitskins.
Problem solved.
>>76129628
Likely an inevitability, but if so it's an inevitability of the far future.
>>76130746
Don't forget basic universal pussy. It is my right
>>76134767
That's not feasible. You're going to have huge civil wars and intervention from other countries.
Millions of people would die and during this time people would be out of work and killing each other.
>>76133067
>Communist governments love the mantra of national goods being better than foreign goods, even though individually, people don't mind them.
>Trump wants to limit your freedom to buy foreign goods at the price the buyer and seller agreed upon. He's not pro-freedom.
You need to learn about the American School
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_School_(economics)
>>76134444
>If you're the small guy you don't really have any options to negotiate what you get.
If your system isn't working for you and there is no way to seek redress for grievances, then prepare for revolt.
“If they want peace, nations should avoid the pin-pricks that precede cannon shots.”
~ Napoleon Bonaparte
>How do you ever expect to earn enough
I don't. "Earning" is a myth. Michael Vick and Nicki Minaj didn't "earn" their wealth. Paris Hilton and Donald Trump didn't "earn" being born rich.
>attitude
Attitude is irrelevant; yet another distraction the rich have told you to levy against the poor. Being rich is mostly a roll of the dice, and has exceedingly little to do with work ethic, staying in school, careful budgeting or asceticism. The vast majority of people who are wealthy were born at least upper middle class and that isn't coincidence.
The right and their rich masters and jews have been warned for decades now they were fucking up and they're still not listening, still spilling bile all over anyone with less wealth than themselves. Their heads are very close to ending up on pikes again.
http://ideas.ted.com/were-you-surprised-by-the-rise-of-donald-trump/
>>76134767
No, it won't be. Europe didn't historically have niggers or mestizos and it's seen many revolts and government overthrows. Not all of which were caused by jews. And all of which had a significant component of the people just being fed the fuck up with the aristocracy leeching them for profit while letting them die in the mud for generations.
I don't really have a strong opinion on it one way or the other, but I do think it'll become necessary to prevent a revolution once automation enters full-swing.
It is called inflation, that is the only effect it will have. Give everybody a thousands dollars a month, and prices will go up accordingly.
>>76134723
> le communism boogeyman
You do realize that actual communists never had or advocated for any social welfare programs and would throw unemployed men into gulags?
>>76134936
But so much fun and in the end, a better nation for it.
>>76134708
move labor.
get them to do other shit we need to do like clean things, manufacture specialty items, basically anything robots cant do.
theres also going to be big money into developing other nations so immigrate and have fun.
>>76135176
>You do realize that actual communists never had or advocated for any social welfare programs
literally all of communism IS welfare.
they had to force people to work at gun point in russia because nobody wanted to do shit since LOL FREE SHIT.
>>76135176
yes althrought you can only refer to something close to they to refer to the "85% who don't produce value for society"
The percentage is such an asspull that i can't expect you to actually try to prove 85 of society ain't doing a job that is of use for mankind.
Must be implemented as a negative income tax. Must shut the borders and deport illegals and low-quality immigrants.
>>76131038
>why would i get any gov help when i dont need it?
Instead you get taxed on your income, then.
>>76135142
There is plenty of people who start off small and work there way up. Earning isn't a myth.
What do you want to happen? Are you a communist?
Success is opportunity (luck) + preparation (hard work).
>>76135265
Not many people are going to be open to leaving the country. They'd much sooner riot and destroy things. Otherwise you're right that they can do other labor jobs but those will eventually be done by automation, won't they?
>>76135310
Lel, you're absolutely wrong. There never was any free shit in Russia or any real commie countries. There was barely any paid for shit too.
Welfare is 100% a Western capitalist invention, born of abundance and prosperity.
This is taxpayer money that will go straight through the welfare recipient and right into a corporation's coffers.
What do you think people will do with this money? Surely they won't make it work for them, they're on welfare to begin with. They're going to spend it on all sorts of shiny trinkets and electronic gizmos.
How do you make sure a basic income won't just lead to inflation?
>>76129628
My first thought is who will pay for it and how many people will actually be motivated to go to work if it's more or less 'get money for doing nothing'. And secondly I am pretty sure inflation would greet us with a big slap in our face.
>>76135406
No, it's not, I actually read about the 10-15% in many economist opinion pieces.
>>76135142
Also.
The system doesn't work perfectly but there are still ways to maneuver through it.
>>76135579
>Welfare is 100% a Western capitalist invention, born of abundance and prosperity.
You're one of those antifa faggots who rigged the mail-in ballots, aren't you?
Yes please
We NEETs now
>>76135579
>There never was any free shit in Russia or any real commie countries.
you tried I guess.
>>76135572
>Otherwise you're right that they can do other labor jobs but those will eventually be done by automation, won't they?
not this century, there's still loads of work to do and even if we did get to that point, we just leave the planet with robots and let the flesh bags do whatever they want.
>>76129628
When we really and finally do replace most workers with robots, then we can speak.
Though, honestly, I'd prefer if it was a paycheck from the government only given to those who sign a contract that entails them doing anything they are asked to.
Like fighting in a war, or doing jobs too important to entrust to robots.
Anyone who doesn't sign gets no money whatsoever.
>>76135712
there was no antifa involved in that
>>76135712
No, I voted Hofer. I'm also socially conservative.
>>76129628
You know what is also forward? The ocean or some kind of exceptionally elevated precipice. Keep going forward!
>>76135791
You're right, they were just mischievous little gremlins doing the bidding of EU technocrats.
>>76135771
Alright. Makes sense.
I do believe that people are not going to just become more willing to do shit work that they hate. Letting them just starve to death won't be an option because they won't allow for that.
>>76129628
i would quit my job and live off the government
>>76135771
Do some actual research m8, talk to people who lived in the USSR and Maoist China if you don't believe written facts.
Being unemployed was a criminal offense under those systems.
>>76129628
People get the wages they earn.
>>76135966
Do it then.
>>76135925
maybe. but that antifa account is and was a troll account. he tweeted more inane shit earlier.
"Forward" is not always the right direction
>>76129628
A commie ruse.
>>76135696
alright i'll list tell me what's necssary and what's not to mankind's growth and survival:
>Public health
>Waste disposal
>Accounting
>Legal Services
>Education
>Water/electricity/networks
>Entertainment
>Manufacturing
>Agriculuture
>Manufacturing
>Mining
There you most likely have 50% of the worlds jobs at least,some must not be useful by your standarts then, since 100%-50%=/=15%
Choose which ones are not needed for society to not collapse and keep expanding.
Good luck.
>>76129876
how specifically does ubi differ from each system?
if you can't or won't answer, you're just a fucking leaf
>>76135973
>Being unemployed was a criminal offense under those systems.
yeah they did that because they soon realized if they made everything free nobody would do shit.
>>76130682
> perish like nature intended
because of course, liberals wouldn't just institute food stamps on top of ubi
>>76135450
>There is plenty of people who start off small and work there way up.
Yes, to the middle class. And the lower they start, the more of their lives they have to spend and the more effort they have to expend getting there and staying there. It's literally economic slavery, while the rich just coast.
>Earning isn't a myth.
You're right, if all you ever aspire to be is a slave. You dumb fucks keep getting mad at the poor for needing welfare to survive, but it's the rich who create the conditions of inequality so bad that that's necessary. Why didn't the boomers have to work this hard? We all know the stereotype of how easy it was for them to just walk into a place, get hired, work for a few years on one household income and buy property. The rich and their right wing servants have spent a long time making sure they built up a system that enslaved as many people as possible to industrial revolution-style grasping for mere survival from a time of unprecedented prosperity because it made them richer. Literally the system we have in place exists for one reason only: to make the rich richer. That's it. It doesn't serve the needs of the vast majority of the population. Every single class except the rich has experienced a collapse in wealth and quality of life since about the 70s - the Reagan era, exactly as intended. But the rich, they've experienced unfathomable leaps in their wealth.
The Walton family has a net worth greater than the GDP of the vast majority of countries on Earth, yet over half of Americans make less than $30k a year and are drawing public benefits. This is just a ridiculous mismanagement of a nation. And the MUH NIGGERS!! argument doesn't hold either because they're only 12% of the population and only draw about 1/3 of EBT for example. The majority of the welfare "problem" isn't them. It isn't even welfare that's the problem. And that's objective fact (that republicans just can't handle).
>>76129628
How about they just tax everyone LESS??
o wait, that would mean they wouldnt be able to line their pockets in the process..
>let's print MORE money
>wait wait wait
>let's print MORE AAAAAAAND GIVE THEM AWAY FOR FREE
then the value drops like lead, which is inflation, on a debt based economy
Only California and New York would have enough people stupid enough to live there and not afford MUH NY/LA LYFSTYLE
It almost makes me wish we had larger social programs just so they can't say they "literally" can't live
There's the idiots who hate any idea of immigration and then there's the idiots who say we're an immigrant nation and think the old school immigrants didn't work their asses off to make it here.
>>76134104
>gibs class starving
Can't say I don't want this, but they'd raise a stink when da gubment cheez ran out
>>76129846
This.
>Let's take massive amounts of money currently invested in companies and give it to people to spend.
>Let's pretend the market won't adjust to this flood of cash
>Inflation goes up, growth, profit and productivity go down.
>Economy is destroyed within a decade, two at the most.
>No more money for Basic income.
It will basically resolve itself - like the Soviet Union - but there will be a lot of suffering before it does.
>>76136349
>implying crack cocaine has nothing to do with this
>blaming rich non-druglords
>>76136205
You don't get it do you?
Then again, people itt think we don't have the tech to automate within the next decades but do have the tech to go live on Mars.
It's not that any of these sectors will disappear. It's that 10 people will be able to do the jobs of a 100 people.
>>76130870
>You are here.
>Implying Sol is in the galactic core.
So this is what a dumb communist looks like.
>>76136219
No, they did it because their countries lost huge amounts of their young male population to WW2.
>>76130338
Basic income + Universal Healthcare + Free College +... +... +...
If you think it ends at a UBI, you haven't been paying attention.
>>76136478
>implying consumerism isn't a drug
just gimme dat free shit nigga
>>76129628
Unconditional Basic Slavery
FTFY
>>76136479
It's already the damn case but think about it a few second.
Why hire 10 people and pay them handsomely while you can pay 100 people and pay them just enough to live.
It would be a waste of skill to use technician for works others can do reasonably well.
Also regarding public services i think we're lacking enormous amount of skilled labor actually.
Your point only stand for manufacturing/mining and accounting.
And that's not 35% of workers.
Also i didn't even bring military up, but it's pretty needed as well.
>>76136349
"""""slave"""""
what?
I imagine you're from /r9k/ or you have a huge victim complex. Have you ever worked a day in your life?
Just because the system is shit it doesn't mean you just give up and be a fucking pathetic loser.
Why not see more wealth people as something to beat? Someone to compete with?
Oh wait this is just another crazy right wing lie to """"""""""enslave'"""""""" people, right?
Go back to fucking /r9k/ you probably live with your fucking parents and have never worked a day in your fucking life.
>>76129628
Leeches gonna leech. This fantasy that everyone will become a doctor or some Star Trek shit is just a pipe dream. As long as we have limitations on energy generation and resource extraction/reclamation there will be a scarcity that no robot/UBI fantasy can overcome.
Giving people who were unable to secure thinking professions the means to breed uncontrollably will just create more useless eaters in this "robots do half the jerbs" scenario.
>>76136828
> Why hire 10 people and pay them handsomely while you can pay 100 people and pay them just enough to live.
You're kidding, right?
In case you aren't, 10 well paid people are vastly cheaper, easier to manage and lower risk than a 100 underpaid ones.
>>76136553
they lost it because stalin killed all of them so good try
>>76136980
Every single piece of statistical evidence shows that overbreeding is caused by poverty.
>>76129628
I'm for. It's more efficient than our current welfare system. However, it should be tied to mandatory sterilization. You shouldn't be able to abuse it by spawning unlimited number of children into the country unless you can prove that you can support them yourself instead of further straining the welfare system.
>>76135450
>What do you want to happen? Are you a communist?
I want this world to end in flames. As soon as possible. It is corrupt beyond redemption and too full of stupid, wicked people who care about nothing but their own bank accounts or at most their own families and care nothing for their species, their race or their biosphere.
>Success is opportunity (luck) + preparation (hard work).
It's far more luck than it is work. Or I should say that most of the work of the rich is actually not done by them. Once you have enough money all you have to do is pay others to do your "work" for you. You're not earning shit. If you think people like Donald Trump do their own accounting or manage their own businesses, or put in ANY labor whatsoever to any of their business ventures you are out of your mind.
Steve Jobs is an excellent example of just how little work goes into being rich. He wasn't an engineer, he wasn't a programmer. He wasn't shit but a sociopathic, narcissistic scam artist who literally turned Apple into a cult. And despite libertarian and rightwing rhetoric, sociopathy is NOT something we should be rewarding with fabulous wealth because it's objectively bad for the species.
>>76135703
See pic.
>but there are still ways to maneuver through it.
Increasingly, no there are not. For the poorest, who are quickly becoming the majority, the choices are either a shitty factory job working in industrial-revolution slave conditions of 12 hours, 7 days a week for years on end, until they quit and try to find a less shitty job and eventually find their way back to another shitty one because they're all the same now. Or just being poor. For those born poor, there is no option to get above mere survival. You can only choose between lifelong slavery or coasting as best you can in poverty. Most opt for a mix. The right doesn't care about these people and that's fucking stupid, because that's exactly how you lose your head and get your enclave burned to the ground.
>>76137085
Stalin was simply willing to throw peasants armed with pitchforks against Hitler's state of the art military. Same with barely unified China vs Japan.
>>76129628
sounds nice but im pretty sure it will have some kind of negative consequences
>>76137338
are you retarded?
you know stalin killed millions of farmers by preventing them from doing anything right?
>>76137046
>10 well paid people are vastly cheaper, easier to manage and lower risk than a 100 underpaid ones.
That's factually false.
The poor and uneducated are easier to manage.
Exependable workers revolt less that non-expendable ones.
which mean you can make them work from 8AM to 12PM.
Are you living under a rock? Are you in denial over the delocalisation of manufacturing in western society?
>>76137430
Stalin prevented his army from fighting? You're the retard.
>>76137160
And do you think that the lives of literal billions subsisting on UBI will be more or less similar to the lives of modern people on welfare than they will to middle class existences?
HINT: People will breed like fucking rabbits. We ran the experiment here. It's called "The Great Society" and it has ruined the nation.
>http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/
>http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/06/22/its-not-race-but-population-size-that-explains-americas-welfare-state/#7170b2081f46
>http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/07/12/the-politics-and-demographics-of-food-stamp-recipients/
>http://www.childtrends.org/?indicators=child-recipients-of-welfareafdctanf
>>76136666
>buying and selling shit is the same as ingesting toxic chemicals
A FUCKING LEAF
>>76135113
For industry, you need rubber. Rubber doesn't grow in the US. It doesn't grow in any first world country.
A 'self-sufficient' country will never be as well-off as a trading one.
Enjoy a surge of automation and STEM jobs.
>>76129628
Probably better than food stamps.
I'm here to spread the word: FOOD STAMPS ARE A SCAM TO TAKE YOUR MONEY! Take it from someone who used to work in a grocery store. People buy chips, and soda, and birthday cakes, and cookies, and all kinds of shit with food stamps. WIC is a much better system and food stamps should be replaced by it.
>>76135980
Then why do niggerball players get millions a year, then strike because they feel they're not getting enough? The market is a sociopath and doesn't care about humanity. It rewards childish desires, not human needs.
>>76136832
>Have you ever worked a day in your life?
I have a job now, unlike you. No, shitposting is not a job, Australia. And I never got to live off of mommy and daddy, so I know what it's like to scrape.
>Just because the system is shit it doesn't mean you just give up and be a fucking pathetic loser.
Oh I haven't. I'm preparing for the inevitable revolution.
>Why not see more wealth people as something to beat? Someone to compete with?
Because appealing to greed is just propaganda and I'm not so stupid platitudes, lies and appeals to vice impress me. What I want out of life, people such as yourselves have already robbed me of. I don't want yachts and fast cars and mansions. I want intact ecosystems, I want a sane, rational society. I want infrastructure that isn't collapsing. I want the rich to stop hypersexualising everything to make a quick buck. I want you and your masters off my planet. You can't greed me into agreeing with you because all I want now is you off my planet. And there are BILLIONS who feel the same way. You exist because we LET you. Soon that will stop.
>Go back to fucking /r9k/ you probably live with your fucking parents and have never worked a day in your fucking life.
But what is your living situation? How wealthy was the family you were born into? And don't say poor because nobody born into poverty would EVER spew the ignorant nonsense about the poor that you are.
>>76136980
Protip: the rich are the biggest leaches of all.
>>76137502
No. Even if we were to assume that 1 engineer makes as much as 10 burger flippers (not economically realistic in any Western country btw)
Expendable workforce=high flow of human resources=> high cost of training and buffer material. High risk of data leak, reputational hazard.
>>76137776
Yeah but I got quads
>>76137786
You're a retard. Rubber is plastic nowadays.
the government needs to adopt it now and slash ALL other forms of welfare.
however democracy is too slow and by the time people figure this out it will be 20 years too late.
but i guess it doesn't matter anyway because Rome is burning and the savages from around the world are invading. there won't be anything left to redistribute when the shitskins take over.
>>76137922
oh really? changes everything i'm now a #commumissle
>>76137892
Also, no, stupid people aren't easier or easy at all or manage and organize. A rl dumb person is not a naive obedient automaton, he'll look out for himself just as much as a smarter person would but in an extremely dumb way that will be detrimental to your enterprise. Also, proles have a deep seated mistrust and dislike of their white collar employers.
>>76129628
>unconditional basic income
It can only work if people who refuse to work or produce are sterilized in order to receive it.And can only be given in terms of up to 3 years (the maximum amount of time it should take for you to "find youself" or figure shit out.).
Also the term "basic income" is a misnomer. Welfare is a basic income in that you can pay for basic food and basic shelter with it.Meeting all of your "basic" human needs. The socialist vision of basic income is essentially workers paying lazy people not to work indefinitely to ensure the lazy keep voting for socialist policies indefinitely.
Call it what it is: a "Life Bursary".
Rewards mediocrity
>>76138371
>Because capitalism doesn't
>>76129628
Whites will probably still get more protein fluid intravenously than us brothas in the end
>>76136044
>
there's a stigma in doing that now though, with ubi there wouldn't be and people deserve to be able to do that without being stigmatized by dipshit wagecucks
>>76129628
The fear of over-automation is literally the new global warming fear proposed by the left as a way to expand the growth of government even more. How would any capitalist industry survive if everyone else in the country was poor and couldn't afford their product/service? There is a balance between employees, consumers, and entrepreneurs in any industry. There is no "race to the bottom" in terms of labor or automation. New jobs will come to light that haven't even been imagined yet, most likely in the service sector. But even some basic manufacturing will still be human-run.
>>76138327
No welfare nigger permanently out of his job will agree to get sterilized just for 3 years of pay. He'd sooner stab you and steal and sell your car.
>>76138402
That's inheritance and is different. Anyway, her children will be as poor as mine, who'll be stupid by growing up in a broken home.
A smart man can get upper middle class no matter his starting position and his children can get upper class if they're well educated. But... If jobs are redistributed to "underprivileged minorities" or if taxation is such a burden that they can't save, basically modern attempts at socialism, than no, no you can't excel as a smart man.
If capitalism is failing it's because socialism is rearing its ugly head.
You've already got affirmative action to redistribute opportunities, can you not look for ways to justify redistributing more finances?
>>76138327
you think being sterilized isn't a condition though?
>>76138011
your a fucking idiot
>>76138611
> over automation
No such thing. If a job can be automated, it should be.
>>76129628
If I don't have to work, why would I want to?
>economy collapses
>>76138371
you literally canada without the us and with more niggers.
Basically this is a proposition by a bunch of singularityfags that can't accept that Moore's law is on its way out because of quantum mechanics.
So they hold onto this delusion that Moore's law will continue forever.
>>76138402
>Paris Hilton keeps 1000s of people employed from movie set workers to paparazzi to the manufacturers and retailers that make and sell her products.
>Implying your average mouth breathing burger flipping prole can do that.
>>76129628
good idea that will become inevitable when the robots take all the jobs
>>76138746
Exactly. It's a boogeyman.
>>76138702
It is a condition and so is 3 years.
>>76138773
only productive work holds up an economy and if you have to forced to be productive, were you/are you ever going to be anyway?
>>76138817
b-b-but they are exploited! hurr durr surplus value
Adopt a Soviet-style system of guaranteed labor, even if its useless and only serves to self-perpetuate, and give income with that. Only automate that which cannot be filled with humans.
If anything it will serve to keep people occupied and away from drugs.
>>76138691
>No welfare nigger permanently out of his job will agree to get sterilized just for 3 years of pay.
You underestimate the poor. It's ILLEGAL to offer them 300 dollars to do so because it is TOO SUCCESSFUL.
>>76138922
it's not part of it then
>reward people for simply existing
Good goyim
>>76138727
excellent rebuttal. if we currently did what I said every citizen 18 or older would get $200 per month. Labor force participation rate is declining with no signs of slowing.
the government can only hide the real unemployment rate for so long. within 10 years we'll have automated trucks driving on the freeways, putting 2 million more workers out of jobs.
the economy will not create new jobs as quickly as robots destroy them.
>>76138695
>That's inheritance and is different.
There is literally no reason to excuse inheritance. Period.
>Anyway, her children will be as poor as mine
Prove it. This is just more just world fantasy nonsense and excuses for the failures of capitalism. You don't have to be competent to stay rich, you just need to let those who are handle your money for you.
>A smart man can get upper middle class no matter his starting position and his children can get upper class if they're well educated. But... If jobs are redistributed to "underprivileged minorities" or if taxation is such a burden that they can't save, basically modern attempts at socialism, than no, no you can't excel as a smart man.
All of this is nothing but propaganda and doesn't play out in real life. That's why America is collapsing. The right lives in an even worse fantasy land than the left does where capitalism is magically meritocratic, as most of the country relies on public assistance and three part time jobs to scrape by.
>If capitalism is failing it's because socialism is rearing its ugly head.
Pic related. Good little reaganite. Serving your rich masters well.
>You've already got affirmative action to redistribute opportunities
You keep bitching about niggers, but they're only 12% of the population. Even Hispanics are only 16%. You can't blame everything on other races forever. At some point you have to address the systemic problems of corporatocracy.
>>76138773
>Implying it's not already
>>76138817
Paris Hilton is a useless parasite who deserves to be executed in public.
>>76138817
No, she doesn't, the managers and accountants her daddy's money bought do. She doesn't do shit all day except flashing her aged twat.
>>76139023
Also sterilization would behave to be required to have it beyond 3 years or more than one time, I suppose.
>>76139071
depends on what you think is a reward.
>>76129628
makes everyone poor and unproductive, you can only have it with sertain type of people, which means only whites and asians and even then its not enough. you need the will of the people to carry anything socialist out, otherwise it will crumble. forcing people isnt option or slavery, as that is counter productive and destroys itself even faster and more devistatingly
>>76131031
pooo
>>76139113
>Paris Hilton is a useless parasite who deserves to be executed in public.
What do you contribute, pray tell?
people saying "oh it would destroy the market, it would crash the economy" are talking out their ass. the only thing that it would accomplish is making sure that the lower class benefits from the massive accumulation of wealth by the smallest percentage of the country
>>76139142
>
>>76139142
it wouldn't work with conditions, especially some stupid shit like a time limit
>>76138996
give free drugs to the citizens along with a basic income to keep them occupied and stop them from revolting
>>76139120
>No, she doesn't, the managers and accountants her daddy's money bought do.
All of those people are EMPLOYED to do so. Because money has to be managed or it will be eaten up. Do you know how many failed millionaires there are? A lot.
>>76139240
Wealth isn't accumulated in a free market, it's created. If wealth wasn't created and only stolen, most people would still be living in the stone age. Be productive and create something for once, or simply remain an employee and create things for someone else.
>>76139113
Fuck. Forgot image.
>>76139218
The question is what COULD I contribute, given the proper opportunities. I have many plans and skills and a vast base of knowledge. But the things I want to do require at least hundreds of millions of dollars. And if your bitching is going to boil down to "muh welfare parasitism", then I already pay taxes, so suck on it, since you seem to think that's the only useful service anyone can provide.
>>76139142
It wouldn't work and would lead to violent chimpouts. The thing is, we already know what causes a huge drop in birth rates all by itself.
>>76139181
>
people working retail just to buy food and electricity are unproductive. how would it make anyone poor?
>>76129628
It will just create a new poverty line.
>>76129846
This.
Imagine hyper-inflation on a scale of what Germany saw just before WWII. The countries that have already implemented it are struggling hard to keep it working.
