Standard Christianity Theology and Questions Thread
Christians and others welcome
Skeptics must be constructive
Questions welcome
Isn't Christian Moralism and Self-Censoring Puritanism the origin of Political Correctness?
Jesus literally told his followers that those who call a brother "foolish" would be sent to the eternal fires, yet here we are calling each other niggers every day
>>75820246
when you call someone a fool with anger, you commit murder in your heart, and when you lust after a women, you commit adultery in your heart, the main point is that every one is guilty of sin, and deserving of Hell, but Jesus will save some us
>>75820246
St. Paul called the Galatians stupid in the Bible, and I doubt he was sent to hell
>>75820246
No, the origin of political correctness is 1960's US academia wanting to sound less like communism, so using race and gender as dividers instead of class.
Checking in for the alchemists, OP. let's all take a moment to realise that all around us is part of the grandest work to ever exist, and we should all feel utterly blessed to have ever been a part of such a masterpiece.
>>75820718
you can call someone foolish rghteously, but not in anger, once someone is saved, they cannot lose their salvation, but he was judging righteously
>>75820735
i dont think alchemy is biblical, but i might be wrong
>>75820637
>you call someone a fool with anger, you commit murder in your heart, and when you lust after a women, you commit adultery in your heart,
Seems to be like Jesus is committing the fallacy of false equivalence
>>75821030
explain?
>>75820966
It's likely not. I'm not destined for Heaven, and I don't mind.
>>75821108
well we are still supposed to be alert of things, you know spiritual warfare and all.
>>75820059
Is God anymore real than santa, pixies, or genies?
If yes, explain.
If no, then why do you waste your time with him?
>>75821106
there is no reason to assume that calling someone a fool with anger is equivalent to commiting murder in your heart if any definition of any of those concepts
The following statements are examples of false equivalence:
"They're both soft, cuddly pets. There's no difference between a cat and a dog."
"We all bleed red. We're all no different from each other."
>>75821325
* in any definition of any of those concepts
>>75821106
also
>commiting murder in your heart
is an absurdist concept
Jesus fails to understand that words are not just abstractions, but that they carry REAL concepts
>>75821323
God is real, and has revealed himself to everyone in a way that everyone can be certain enough to be held without excuse on Judgement day
>>75821325
God looks at your heart, the point of Jesus saying this was to show the Jews that it was impossible to keep the law, and why everyone is deserving of their condemnation.
>>75821544
Note that the idea of a "Judgement day" is also outright suicidal
>>75821323
How real is consciousness, chaos theory or astronomically-applied mathematics?
They're not physically tangible, and don't always give the same observed results because their environments are constantly changing. Are they extant, according to the scientific method?
>>75821544
> revealed himself to everyone in a way that everyone can be certain
How so?
>>75821692
what i am saying is that noone is gonna be held accountable to a God you do not know, but one everyone knows exists.
>>75821763
That doesn't answer the question.
>>75821809
Read Romans chapter 1
>>75821684
It was impossible to keep the law because he twisted it into a joke, into an absurd contradiction
That is like me saying that because you don't like muslims, laws against genocide are impossible to keep, even when no genocide whatsoever was committed
Also, the idea that this "heart" is just silly. Don't liking a person does not mean that there is a secret dimension inside of you where you actually killed him and that God is looking into that bizarre micro world to know what you really did, even when you DIDN'T!
>>75821763
Logic and Reason are transcendent from the mind of God
>>75822000
Thats your opinion
>>75821888
The idea that one is somehow accountable to a God is just as bizarre, and reeks with masochism
>>75820059
I am thinking about converting to Roman Catholicism. I have a few questions.
1. Would I need to like the Pope?
2. As a Roman Catholic, would I need to defer to the Pope for moral authority?
3. Upon converting, do I need to confess all of my sins immediately or do I start with a clean slate?
>>75821948
Read Harry Potter. Is the city of London, which is talked about in the book, proof that wizards are real?
There's nothing Christian about Christ-chan.
>>75822087
That is my opinion, but that is also logic
ie.:
Disliking Muslims is NOT equivalent of Genocide
Which adds to my idea that liberalism is actually hyper-christianity
I can't avoid noticing that liberals think that if you don't want muslims invading your homeland, it means that you wanna kill every single muslim man, woman and child
Such demented outlook of life can only be justified until this bizarre christian framework where the border between feelings and actions does not exist
>>75822175
im a reformed Baptist, so i cant give you my blessing to do that but i would be glad to tell you how you can be saved.
>>75821935
I was rather hoping you'd figure it out yourself, but okay.
God is as intangible and unpredictable a feature as chaos theory, and not one that can be accurately measured. I am not sure that God exists, but can deduce logically that it does by witnessing the form of everything that exists. It has order, intelligence, purpose and connection.
Intelligence is created only by intelligence.
Not say evolution isn't real. I mean the REAL intelligence. The code behind life that allows mathematical predictions and structure.
>>75822191
the Bible is not a good comparison to Harry Potter
>>75822158
Well, what is your standard of proof?
If we are here to debate, what kind of logical proof do we need so that things stop being "my opinion" and you come to realize that Christian Moralism is extremely twisted and the root of a whole set of modern social problems?
What logical debate can we have? under what parameters will you accept logical proof?
>>75822329
You are regurgitating the propaganda found on creationist websites.
If there needs to be an intelligent creator to create everything, who created the creator?
Your argument can be debunked by a 2nd grader.
>>75822298
No it is your opinion, because without God you cant account for Objective morality or Objective truth,
>>75822313
A friend of mine has convinced me that Orthodox and Roman Catholicism are the only Christianity denominations that date back to the first century. Why would I want to join a religion that started in the 17th century?
>>75822329
> Intelligence is created only by intelligence.
Why?
Randomly selected events can also create organized structures
Also your declaration is fallacious, as it creates an endless loop: If only intelligence can create intelligence, then intelligence can't exist, as it requires itself to have been created a priori to exist
>>75822455
Logic presupposes truth, truth presuposes knowledge, and knowledge presuposes God
>>75822524
Then Christianity is the root of Liberal Moral Relativism?
>>75822329
>The code behind life that allows mathematical predictions and structure.
Source?
You know mathematics can't be manipulated, right? It has always existed. No one can make 1+1=2.
God didn't create math.
>>75822702
My bad.
I meant 1+1=3
>>75822672
> knowledge presuposes God
That is an unguaranteed jump of logic
>>75822521
>You are regurgitating the propaganda found on creationist websites.
No, they think it works that way for living beings, which is not what i'm saying.
>If there needs to be an intelligent creator to create everything, who created the creator?
There are a number of arguments for this. One is that there can be such a thing as an encreated creator. With a powerful enough being, I suppose that's perfectly possible. I choose to think that time is cyclical, anyway. All cosmological pattern seems to point that way, anyway.
>Your argument can be debunked by a 2nd grader.
You asked a question, and I answered it. Don't be a prick just because you don't like, or choose to glibly misinterpret, the answer.
When you have matter, the laws of nature (result of mathematics), and time, every possible design would have eventually come to be because of probability.
>>75820059
DEUS VULT
>>75820059
The sun was created on the Fourth day...
There was a time when we believed in Santa too, but as you get older common sense and logic should come into play..
>>75822539
The Catholic church was courupted by a heretical group called the palagians, who taught things that are unbiblical, so the reformation was necessary, but going to church wont get you to heaven, you need to be spiritually born again? you need to ask God to grant you a changed mind (repentance), and you need to put your trust in Jesus Christ Alone, this is what you need to do to be saved.
>>75822606
>Randomly selected events can also create organized structures
But the underlying patterns of existence cannot be randomly created. Unless you think that events can create the fact of gravitational force or the rules governing the speed of light.
>as it creates an endless loop
A lot of what we observe both spiritually and scientifically tend to imply a loop. Which is why I advocate for cyclical time, or at least a spiral.
>>75822673
How?
>>75822802
You never answered my question quite frankly.
God is just as likely to exist as pixies and genies.
>>75822702
>It has always existed
Do you realise that scientifically, this is an impossibility?
I have a question, aimed mainly at practicing Catholics. You see, I'm what you would probably call a heretic. I lost faith in God at a pretty young age and never gained it back. However, I think that people desire religious rituals. It puts them at ease and and reduces stress. Humans naturally desire religious ritual. To that end, I've been considering attending Mass at my local cathedral. Now, I really don't know what the fuck I'm doing or what would be expected of me. Any advice?
>>75820059
>>75822774
can you account for the laws of Logic in your world view?
>>75822952
The idea of salvation, with the implicated destruction of the World and Apocalypse, renders civilizational projects pointless, and turns life into a paranoid nightmare where every action, even those needed for the civilizational project to survive, can damn you forever
Christian Moralism is fuel for Leftism
>>75822947
The Hebrew word means he improved on.
>>75823028
If you don't like the answers, there's nothing I can do about that. I likely can't convince a muslim that Allah isn't perfect, either.
>>75822947
as an atheist can you use logic to prove that logic is valid
>>75820059
Why do some verses remain in the Bible when Christian biblical scholars agree they are later insertions? Prime example being "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone".
>>75822975
We observe that a lot of numeric patterns are cyclical, by the very raw rules of mathematics
such cycles don't need an upper intelligence to exist
>>75823172
we are created in the image of God, so when we create and imitate, we imitate him, and this Glorifies him, "Be ye imitators of God"
>>75823017
You just declared that objective morality only exists within a religious framework, which is exactly one of the justifications of the left for their moral relativism
>>75823097
They came to exist the very same way that your God came to exist
>>75823301
>such cycles don't need an upper intelligence to exist
No, but they contain their own solution, without having a discernible creation point, if they are cyclical. That's what i'm getting at. If the universe works like that, then God would be...within..the machine.
>>75823280
you Got an article or something on that, i know the last part of mark was an insertion, but the original autographs are what were inspired by God.
>>75823261
I am not an atheist. I just don't follow the illogical Abrahamic scripture.
No point trying to use a logical argument to try and discredit logic
>>75823529
how can you say that Objectivive morality exists without one, it is just everyones opinion
>>75823452
What you just wrote has nothing to do with the problem of salvation
Never mind, that if we were really created to the image of God, salvation would be even more pointless, as we already would be perfect!
>>75823529
So logic is a manmade thing?
>>75823574
Why can't the machine be independent of God?
Why do you have this need to randomly insert "God" into random processed that may as well be self-sustaining?
>>75820059
DEUS VULT
>>75823615
what do you believe then?
>>75823765
we were created in his image, we are not God ourselves. and we are all born with a sinful nature, that makes us hate and rebellious to God, which is why we need to be saved
>>75823824
Because even if they don't have a discernible creation point, there must be some intelligence in the mix somewhere down the line. It's precisely because we're NOT dealing with random processes. We're dealing with structured processes, ordered ones.
That's not to say that "God" is anything like the theistic one. Just to say that there is an underlying intelligence to universal workings.
>>75823734
Sincere opinions, mind you
Your God-dependent morality is unworkable for non-self-deluding intelligent beings that DON'T claim being the special snowflakes that just happen to have the RIGHT interpretation of absurdist quotes from a book written by a bunch of desert tribes
Your God-dependent morality depends on extreme delusion of grandeur, and thus is nothing more than an insincere, self-deluded, self-aggrandized opinion
>>75823770
Is God a manmade thing to you?
>>75824138
and thats your opinion
>>75824196
nope
>>75824099
> because we're NOT dealing with random processes
How do you know?
99.99999999999999999 % of the Universe is extremely hostile to Life, and you would die in seconds there
Life seems more like an extremely random chance than anything else
>>75824045
> which is why we need to be saved
As I pointed out before, the whole "salvation" thing is just christian paranoid nihilism
Hell
does
not
exist!!!!
>>75820059
Do shitposts count as constructive?
>>75824411
and you know this with absolute certainty?
>>75824262
Just as the "objective morality" that you presume of God... is actually your opinion!!
>>75824282
then why do the laws of logic NEED to be?
Why are christians so obsessed with inserting God into the process that created the laws of the Universe?
Why can't they develop from the same process that they assume created God?
>>75824411
>How do you know?
Because mathematics isn't random. 1+1 always gives the same answer.
The universe is hostile to OUR form of life, sure. But it's not random. We can see WHY we live in an area of the universe that isn't hostile, after all.
>>75824494
Will you start to lick assholes because you are not 100 % certain that after death there won't be a God that will rape your mouth unless you licked enough assholes during your life?
To assume that Hell exists is just as paranoid as that!!
Deus Vult
>>75824517
im not saying that beacause logic and morality exists, i am saying because God exists, Logic and objective morality exist, when someone tries to deny God they know exists, their worldview leads to absurdity, where they cant know anything to be true
>>75820735
Yes thank you for all the murder and death it pleases my god greatly.
>>75824651
Dude...there is nothing weird or unnatural about religion. It's been around for tens of thousands of years and serves obvious purpose. It's been around longer than human settlements. Do you scoff at those too?
>>75824651
well no because thats not in the Bible
>>75824562
That static mathematic functions (like 1+1) are not random DOES NOT IMPLY that random probabilitistic functions don't exist
Why would god let natural disasters happen? Sounds like an asshole, trying to test people's faith by killing innocent people.
>>75824897
we live in a fallen world,
>>75824790
I've not murdered anyone, or caused the death of another. I'm not quire sure what you're getting at.
>>75824891
If something has probability, it is not truly random. Just subject to a wider range of outcomes that we can process.
>>75823590
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/aprilweb-only/117-31.0.html
http://tyndalearchive.com/scriptures/www.innvista.com/scriptures/compare/story.htm
>>75824827
The fact that an insane paranoid delusion is part of the Bible does not make it more likely that it exists than the asshole-Hell I talked about
>>75824826
No.
Salvation-based Apocalyptic religions are civilizationally destructive tho
Question for all you Christians...
How do you feel about Chick tracts? Do they have any ounce of truth in them? Pic related (it's funny because it's true).
>>75825069
>civilizationally destructive
Except we can point to many instances of civilizations have been purely built around them. So that's not true.
>>75820059
DEUS VULT
REMOVE THE ANTIPOPE
>>75824986
> If something has probability, it is not truly random
huh?
Everything that happens had/has a probability to happen
Nothing random can happen without probability of it happening
>>75824758
> when someone tries to deny God they know exists, their worldview leads to absurdity,
that is ironic, because that declaration is absurd
there are jumps of logic all over the place
>>75820059
What do you make of the close similarity between early Christianity and modern end of the world cults? In the sense that if someone went around making the sort of claims Jesus did today, accumulating followers, we would identify it as a cult.
>>75825125
not that Good in the scholarly feild, and it promotes KJV onlyism and conspiracy theories
>>75825125
Tfw I used to laugh at Christian Zionists warning about an Islam on the march.
Of course they're still idiots and Islam was not on the march at the time.
>>75825247
so in what sense is it random?
>>75825247
tell me how you can account for logic, and we can talk about it.
>>75825196
That is an oxymoronic
One can't ignore the fact that whenever Christianity tried to rid civilization of its "unpure" pagan elements, and embrace the true nature of the Gospel, you ended up with anti-civilizationist cults, all the way from the martyhood-seeking christians of Rome, to the self-flagellating monks, to the self-castrating cathars, to the life-denying puritans, to the apocalypse-obsessed zionists to Jonestown
>>75825258
Both mormanism and JW were based upon one man, where the Bible is an accumulation of Books over 1600 years
>>75825436
By actually following logical steps duh?
You jump from "denying God" to "absurd worldview" without explaining why would that be the case
>>75825399
> In probability theory and its applications, such as statistics and cryptography, a random function is a function chosen randomly from a family of possible functions.
> possible functions.
What can't happen, won't happen, even at random
>>75824517
The laws of logic are necessary for a stable existence.
>Why are christians so obsessed with inserting God into the process that created the laws of the Universe?
>Why do Christians believe their God who claims to have created the Universe did so?
Really?
>Why can't they develop from the same process that they assume created God?
>created God.
God wasn't/isn't created. He is the foundational impetus for the existence of all other things; he is the prime cause.
>>75825525
You're taking a very small percentage of a population and trying to universalise it. Atheistic civilizations tend to breed these fuckers, too. The human extinction movement springs to mind. There will always be weirdoes, but these are exceptions, not the rule.
>>75825678
Because you cant know anything to be true, yet make absolute truth claims
>>75825678
So there can't be true randomness. It's always going to follow a set number of possible outcomes. And besides, we tend to judge things as random if we can't understand yet the criteria on which their outcomes are based.
>>75825525
>Crazy splinter groups are the true representatives of pure Christianity.
>>75825722
Do you really think that life-denying puritans amd apocalypse-obsessed zionists are some small, powerless minority?
Never mind that the human extinction movement didn't originate from an atheistic civilization, but from the historical western christian one!
>>75825035
Those were mostly the nonschoarly, responses from Christian's summarizing their impressions.
https://archive.org/stream/aplainintroduct01scrigoog#page/n682/mode/2up (See page 610)
Only scholarly source directly mentioning it available for free online. Other archives required paid access, sorry.
>>75825376
>Of course they're still idiots and Islam was not on the march at the time.
They've been on the march since like 700 AD doesn't take a christcuck to see that. Sometimes western civilization beats them down enough to where you don't notice.
>>75825981
Would you call Paul and Peter themselves, the founders of the Church, which committed "suicide by roman" as the cult demanded... crazy splinter groups?
Would you call the Pope and his call for an arabic invasion of Europe, a crazy splinter group?
Would you call the puritans and zionists crazy splinter groups even when they come and have come to determine policy during many instances of history?
>>75825834
there can't be true randomness only if you don't seem to under what randomness means
mathematically illogical things, for example, can't occur at random
>>75825994
>Do you really think that life-denying puritans amd apocalypse-obsessed zionists are some small, powerless minority?
Probably. I'm not sure what you mean by "life-denying". Abortion advocates are pretty atheistic. The apocalypse-obsessed zionists certainly are. They're not well-liked wherever they are.
>historically
Everything is historically reducible, but that's not useful. There's nothing religious about the HEM
>>75826223
>mathematically illogical things
example please. Because i'm saying that there IS no mathematically illogic thing in existence. just things we don't yet understand.
>>75823059
Don't pretend you're Catholic, let the person your sitting next to know you don't know the mass. Most parishes that person will help you through it.
Have fun, and as a Catholic I hope you'll keep an open heart.
>>75826256
Then you can be proven wrong, insofar Apocalyptic Zionism has been influential in determining american policy as far as Woodrow Wilson, and is determinant in the endless evangelical support for Israel, which has had global consequences
Life-denying means those that see earthly joy as a lie to be rejected, based on the Sermon of the Mount. The Puritans were big on that, and they were one of the largest religious groups in many areas of Europe
I'm an aithest, and i hate islam because its super shit teir.
What do you guys think of me?
and i'm totally fine with your right to believe in anything christian/related to christian stuff.
>>75826354
2 apples can't be 3 apples at random
An hyperactive neutron particle from the Sun could hit one of the apples and create a chain reaction that makes its hydrogen atoms fuse and the apple blow up... extremely unlikely, but not impossible
>>75826125
>Would you call Paul and Peter themselves, the founders of the Church, which committed "suicide by roman" as the cult demanded... crazy splinter groups?
Suicide by romans... you clearly are not serious in this. Besides which, you must know that Peter and Paul have nothing to do with your prior claim that attempts at purifying Christianity are civilization destructive.
You are just throwing random shit at the wall and hoping something sticks. Sorry kid, I don't play that game.
You can either maintain a stream of logic or continue to rhetorically spasm about. One will get responses.
>>75826590
>>75826776
I have to get going, but I ought to just say that it's been fun.
>>75825579
>>>75825258 (You)
Both mormanism and JW were based upon one man
Like Christianity is based on Jesus?
>where the Bible is an accumulation of Books over 1600 years
I don't see how this precludes it being a cult. Islam is also very old at 1,400 years and was similarly compiled from writings about Muhammad divided between the Qur'an and Hadith.
>>75820059
I don't know much about Christianity, I've been raised an atheist all my life, but I just know we didn't come from nothing, there must have been a greater entity than us.
My question is, where do I start in Christianity as a very new beginner to religion in general? The most I know about Christianity is that Jesus is the son of god I think, basically everything else would be new to me.
Should I start learning by going to a local church? Please fill a confused anon in on how to not be a degenerate sinner.
>>75826731
you are made in the image of God, so i cannot hate you, but out of love i say, if you die in your sinfull nature, you will go to hell
Deus Vult!
>>75820059
I've been thinking of converting to Orthodoxy because of cucked Lutheran national church is beyond repair. I'm not really a true believer though, so converting would feel sort of fake. But I want to belong to a congregation, want to get married in a church, baptise my kids and be buried in church land. What do?
>>75826866
The old testament gives promise to the new, the new testiment says it is finished, no room for islam
>>75826853
Of course they don't.
I used them to point out the truer, original nature of Christianity, to point out that the demented interpretation of Christianity as a cult of destruction had nothing to do with latter splinter cults.
It had no concerns for the survival of the organisms, putting their lives in unavoidable risk of death (exactly as they expected) just to spread some demented, self-destructive view of the world
Of course, I am not surprised you refused to notice that the current demented Pope was not a crazy splinter group either
Not surprised there, insofar your arguments are weak, that you have to replace them with fake smugness
>>75826879
The first step For a christian is to be born again spiritually, this is done by recognizing that you are a sinner and deserving of hell, Go into prayer asking God to give you a changed mind and to recieve him as your lord and savior, and then put your trust in Jesus Christ, if you are Genuine, then you will be saved after this point.
>>75826879
http://byzcath.org/index.php/resources-mainmenu-63/parish-home-pages-mainmenu-92
I would be remiss not to recommend one of my brothers in the Eastern Catholic Churches, I do believe we have the best of liturgy, understanding, mystery, tradition, etc. in Christendom.
Go find a Church, preferably Catholic(most common), Eastern Orthodox(fairly common), or Oriental Orthodox(no idea how common). As they are the traditional Churches with lines back to the apostles.
Go in, 95% of Churches are welcoming. They'll have services and adult learning classes.
>>75827001
Become a Baptist if you can find one, least cucked style of church
>>75821809
We do not know God immediately in this life. We know God through creatures, through the creature that each one of us is, through all the rest of creation; or we know God through revelation and the teachings of the church. Our knowledge of God is mediated. It can be mediated by the world of community insofar as we belong to a community in which there is teaching and there are practices of religion. It can be mediated by theory insofar as one's philosophic thought leads one to prove the existence of God, to determine the attributes of God. It can be mediated by one's interiority, and the outstanding example in that field is of course the life of the mystic, in which interiority develops and constitutes, as it were, a means through which God's presence ceases to be an unidentified undertow in one's living.
-Bernard Lonergan
>>75827322
> you are a sinner and deserving of hell
And then they wonder why whites are so prone to being guilted into destroying themselves!
What an absurd demented jewish cult of self-hatred!
>>75826879
>I just know
There're a lot of these just knowing people in mental institutions you know. And you probably would believe them wrong after hearing out their points. Why do you presume your just knowing overrules theirs?
>>75827481
Pagan women were sluts and lead to there social collapses of their society,
the reason why most whites are getting cucked today is because they try to trust man instead of God
>>75827674
Yet another bizarre jump of logic
> they trust man instead of God
> that somehow made them believe that they are OK with muslims raping their women
Can you actually follow up with the logical steps that would lead to that?
Mine logical progression is far simpler
> Whites adopt a jewish cult that demands love for your enemies, and promises that those that suffer oppression and martyrhood will receieve Heaven
> Whites ignore the contents of the cult after the Roman Collapse, but after Reformation, with the Bible is being mass translated once more, whites started to absorb the ideas of self-destruction again
> Whites become mentally weakened after two world wars, and finally submit to the bizarre suicidal ideas of the gospel, becoming ultranihilistic, and rejecting their historical strength
> Whites decide to submit to oppression and invite Islamists in so that they can be sacred victims and redeem themselves for their historical strength
My theory actually explains why the leaders of the Churches are so much on board with what is going on
So you tell me, what is your idea of progression from "trusting man instead of God" to "I shall punish myself and become oppressed by islamn to redeeem myself"?
I don't think you have even a slight idea of one
>>75827418
Jesus fuck no oh God please no worst idea I've ever heard. Keep you heresies Great Satan.
>>75828106
your word view cant account for logic so quit borrowing from my world view to tell me about my world view
>>75827184
>Of course they don't.
>I used them to point out the truer, original nature of Christianity, to point out that the demented interpretation of Christianity as a cult of destruction had nothing to do with latter splinter cults.
>It had no concerns for the survival of the organisms, putting their lives in unavoidable risk of death (exactly as they expected) just to spread some demented, self-destructive view of the world
Okay, you acknowledge that that part was irrelevant bullshit to your point. I won't wade through irrelevant bullshit to discover whether or not you've made a cognizant point later.
Not placing self-preservation above right does not equate to being a "cult of destruction". Every philosophy worth a damn will recognize people who sacrificed for higher ideals. It is part of the human experience.
Tell me what part of the Pope's call to let refugees in is representative of anti-civilizationist cultic ideation and is not representative of general European sentiment without regard to religion.
>>75828205
Im a reformed Baptist, who goes to a southern Baptist church, we are as conservative as it gets in the US
>>75828205
>calling me satan
>Blasphemes God and Jesus in one sentence
do not know whether to laugh or rebuke
>>75828106
>Whites ignore the contents of the cult after the Roman Collapse,
Made up nonsense.
>Whites become mentally weakened after two world wars, and finally submit to the bizarre suicidal ideas of the gospel, becoming ultranihilistic, and rejecting their historical strength
>Whites decide to submit to oppression and invite Islamists in so that they can be sacred victims and redeem themselves for their historical strength
It is merely a huge coincidence that this all happened as rates of atheism and rejection of traditional Christianity rose. It is all Christianity's fault that, even though it was a constant for all of post Roman Western civilization, as Christianity declines so is said civilization.
>>75828367
Keep your heresies. Protestantism - not even once.
>>75828577
we follow the Bible, catholics and orthodox follow men
>>75828210
You can't even create a logical progression to explain why my POV would lack logic, why should anyone take you seriously?
You are completely unable to debate at all
Not that it matters, anyone thinking of converting ITT is now seeing how demented and delusional christians actually are
>>75828216
Can't you actually read?
I was actively answering to a post about how only splinter groups commited to demented suicidism
That you believe that pointing out to the original source of that doctrine somehow makes somehow my point in valid because you misinterpreted to begin with is laughable!
> Not placing self-preservation above right does not equate to being a "cult of destruction".
it is a cult of destruction when "right" means spreading a bullshit paranoid view of the end of the world, that promises an absurd eternal torment to non-believers of said bullshit
> Tell me what part of the Pope's call to let refugees in is representative of anti-civilizationist cultic ideation and is not representative of general European sentiment without regard to religion.
The parts where he actually points out that the Gospel supports his position, duh? Where he literally says that Jesus asked his followers to embrace the poor, to embrace mysery?
But how can you know? Christians of /pol/ never read the gospel, and if they do, they insist that Jesus always meant the opposite of everything he said!
>>75828758
your the one who cant know anything to be true
>>75828505
> Made up nonsense.
Don't be silly. You are well aware that one of the main complaints of The Reformation was that the Church didn't care about the contents of the cult anymore. Luther even called the Pope a false Pope.
> It is merely a huge coincidence that this all happened as rates of atheism and rejection of traditional Christianity rose.
Here you make the mistake of equating the fall of Christian Moralism with Christian Tradition
protip: they are not the same, and most of what people understand as Christian "Tradition" does not have origin in the Gospel
>>75828846
because...?
here I am.... still waiting for a rational, logical explanation besides "but muh God owns logic all XD"
>>75829163
if i could proove to you that the Christian God exists, would you worship him?
>>75821684
>why everyone is deserving of their condemnation.
We're born into a fucked up world where everyone is suffering, everyone is struggling, and most of nature is trying to kill us. Our bodies are weak. We literally cannot handle the stress of survival in this world. Half of us don't have the IQ to provide themselves with food and clean water. All of us are attacked by disease and carry the fear of certain death, sooner or later, from aging.
And we're expected to be "good".
Why do we deserve condemnation again? Don't we deserve to be fixed? To have a better world where we might grow, learn, have the resources to relax and be kind to one another?
>>75829315
Unlikely
Heaven, with its endless hallelujahs and pointless glorification of the Jewish War God, does not sound like a Paradise for a free-thinking man
I will enjoy this life in this world, because it is the only life I actually can have
>>75829358
we cant be good enough and we live in a fallen world, that is why Jesus came, so that some people will be saved. but no one is good enough to get into heaven
>>75820059
Hey there Christfriends, I'm interested in how you came to believe in God.
>>75829488
okay well have a nice day then
>>75822606
>Also your declaration is fallacious, as it creates an endless loop: If only intelligence can create intelligence, then intelligence can't exist, as it requires itself to have been created a priori to exist
God is eternal.
>>75829575
Personal experience, the Holy spirit converts people
>>75829523
If we live in a fallen world, then why not try to improve it through a civilizational process?
Why do we care about what a jewish god thinks or thinks not?
>>75824517
God wasn't created.
>>75829523
One can't avoid but to feel that Christianity preaches helplessness
Fallen or not, surely Man can make out of this world whatever we can, that is what being a man implies: we are builders and creators, we are conquerors and destroyers, the promises of a Jewish War God are meaningless to us, we don't need him
>>75829636
naturally we are rebellious towards him, until he changes someones mind, they will remain in that state
>>75820059
Deus Vult. Not even a Christian friend, but I would take there company over a Muslims.
>>75829909
One could argue that a man that allows the Jewish War God to "change" his mind, is not a man at all: he has become a slave, a being without independence, forever chained to the worship of a foreign God that only demands submission
>>75829523
>we cant be good enough and we live in a fallen world,
So why not fix the world and all of us at the same time? Why is this even a moral issue?
Let me ask you this: you're murdered. God raises you from the dead, new body and everything. He tells you "your murderer is fucked up. I've given you your life back and I can fix your murderer so he will never do it again. He will understand why it is wrong and probably weep for your forgiveness. Your choice: forgive him and I'll fix him, or don't forgive him and I'll give him eternal hell."
What would you do?
>that is why Jesus came, so that some people will be saved.
It might surprise you to know that I believe Jesus is the Son of God, and that his death was some how critical to creating a way for man to be fixed, i.e. saved.
But I'm pissed as fuck about this world and about a God who just disappears for thousands of years at a time. I'm not quite sure I'm OK with people being judges and "eternal hell" when the entire human race got a shit deal and supposedly God can restore all things.
THIS is my crisis of faith. WTF is going on?
>year of the lord 2017-1
>worshipping a dead kike on a stick
shiggydiggydoobydoobydoo
>>75829909
>naturally we are rebellious towards him, until he changes someones mind, they will remain in that state
Are you a Calvinist? Why not change everyone's mind?
Do you believe in free will? Then wouldn't it be more likely for people to change their minds if he was here guiding us and fixing our problems?
>>75830200
He is the God of Everyone, there are no others, and you are either a slave to Jesus, or a slave to your sin,
>>75830255
ur expecting logical behavior of a being that does not even exist m8
pls dont do dat
u know very well what the answer will be: "god wanna give you a chance, but you can't be saved until he changes your mind, so if god does not want to, you are fucked"
>>75829846
>One can't avoid but to feel that Christianity preaches helplessness
Only insofar as convincing a man the by meditating on this he can come into righteousness.
>>75830409
I choose freedom
Man was not born to be a slave, that would be pointless
>>75830478
righteousness being defined as further helplessness, of course
but what do people expect of the Jewish War God
>>75830255
what you need to understand is that God is in complete control of everything, and has no obligation to save anyone, we are his creation, and can be dealt with anyway he wants to, but through his mercy, God has chosen to save some of us
I've been trying to become a Christian lately and I keep falling into my old ways, I feel so empty right now. How do I get closer to God?
>>75830200
One could argue that a man that doesn't allow "x" to "change" his mind, is not a man at all: he has become a slave, a being without independence, forever chained to the worship of a foreign "x" that only demands submission.
Firstly, God does not demand submission, He demands that we love Him.
Secondly, how is a man coming to his own decisions to abide by whatever it make be, make him a slave? If he came to the choice on his own, and carries out those actions also by the will, he is not a slave, he is still acting on his will.
Thirdly, people come to the faith then leave the faith all of the time. You can chose to stop believing at any time, you are never chained to it indefinitely.
>>75830377
we have sense of choice, but because of our nature, we will always choose to go against God, and i am a calvinist
>>75830456
>ur expecting logical behavior of a being that does not even exist m8
This is a created universe with created life. Even if it's old (likely) and even if a form of evolution plays a part (also likely, but not based on random mutation since that's literally a violation of Shannon entropy).
So a creator or creators, who would be a god or gods to us, exist.
I've studied enough that I believe Jesus is of this being / these beings and that the Bible is at least partially inspired.
But I don't understand how any man can deserve judgement when man was fucked from day one. This world is awful. And we are not built to thrive in it. It bothers me tremendously that God claims to be loving and merciful and just yet this is the world he would build.
If I had the power to create self aware, intelligent life in a super computer...a sim they called their universe...I would never structure it like this. This is insanity.
Yet I have to somehow reconcile this with Christ. Who, by every account, was loving, merciful, good beyond belief, trying to help all that he could.
Why not just use over whelming power to fix this shit?
>>75821323
I believe there is a creator. But to call him "God" (which means good), and assume the creator of everything in the physical world is a humanoid male is idiotic. And to build a cult of surrender and forgiveness and emotions around him in order to feel happy and positive is even more idiotic.
That's my opinion.
>>75820059
>>75830668
Lol stop being such a fag
sleepy time
sleep well /pol/
>>75830514
you cant choose freedom, you will be bound by your sinful nature, and if you die in this nature, you will Go to hell, and be eternally separated from God, and that is the Real torment
>>75830662
Why would a hyper intelligent being create this universe? Why make some suffer? Why, if he is in "complete control", not create paradise for all?
>>75830668
you first need to be born again
http://www.laymanperspective.com/Archive%20articles/Layman_Perspective_Articles/Doctrinal/Salvation/born%20Again.html
>>75830662
All of us. Quit spouting this heretical nonsense.
1 Timothy 2:3-5
This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,…
John 3:13-17
No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him....
>>75823280
>>75825035
>>75826043
I feel like this was less boring to Christian proponents and more that there isn't really a response. But maybe I'm wrong?
>>75831058
You cannot run forever.
>>75828758
>I was actively answering to a post about how only splinter groups commited to demented suicidism
You haven't shown that a philosophy that advocates right action in the face of death is "demented suicidism". Then you'd have to make another step to tie said "suicidism" into anti-civilizationist positions, which you will never do, because Christianity has been a component, sometimes the key component, of European civilization for so long.
>it is a cult of destruction when "right" means spreading a bullshit paranoid view of the end of the world, that promises an absurd eternal torment to non-believers of said bullshit
Its baddy badness when it says things I don't like! Jesus Christ.
Die with evil in your heart and burn. Deal.
And when you risk your life to try to reach someone, anyone, so they don't burn, that isn't suicidism; it is heroism.
>The parts where he actually points out that the Gospel supports his position, duh?
You've shown neither of the things I requested. Yes, he justifies it with the faith. But Poland(super Catholic) and Hungary reject Syrian refugee immigration and are far more in keeping with the traditional understanding of Christian duty.
Now, where is the Pope's position that is against civilization as an idea.
Austria just elected the green party Jew to let refugees in. I guess Christianity is to blame for that too.
>>75829040
>You are well aware that one of the main complaints of The Reformation was that the Church didn't care about the contents of the cult anymore.
I give a shit about Protestants when?
>Luther even called the Pope a false Pope
I give a shit about Luther when?
Also, Luther and the Reformation were 1000 years after the fall of (western) Rome.
>most of what people understand as Christian "Tradition" does not have origin in the Gospel
No fucking shit.
Western Civilization is being wrecking by jews, effete leftists, and euphoric atheists. It is the fall of Christendom that is killing it.
>>75830277
>>75820246
You guys are doing a fantastic work to stereotype your country.
>>75831107
he wanted to demonstrate his character, he is Holy, Righteous, Just, but also Merciful, and Gracious
If everyone went to hell, we would only see his just, holy, and Righteous nature
if everyone went to heaven, we would only see his merciful and gracious nature
But if some Go to heaven and others Go to hell, than you see all aspects of his nature
>>75831246
Eph 1
Romans 8:28-
John 6:37
John 10
John 3 (the elect are the ones who will believe in him) read 18-end
>>75820059
I'm not that much of a Christian, but basically everyone else around me is
Is t he old Testament just jewish shit that should be ignored?
>>75829358
>We should be able to learn and grow
>God should fix us so we never die and never be evil.
Pick one.
>>75830200
Platoscave.bmp
>>75831762
the laws were made for the Jews, but some of them were carried over to the new covenant, but under the new covenant, we no longer live by the law, but by Grace, the law is so we can understand sin
>>75831689
No, it doesn't say elect there anywhere.
If it's impossible for all to be saved, then God would not desire for all to be saved. God can never be wrong.
So take a pick. Follow Satan and lies, or God and the truth.
>>75831762
No, because all of the prophecies which Jesus came and fulfilled are contained within the OT.
>>75831246
http://www.reformationtheology.com/2009/04/understanding_1_timothy_24_by.php
>>75831981
did you look at the verses i listed, predestination is a biblical doctrine
>>75831514
What a pile of shit. Controlling some to damnation doesn't reveal justice, it reveals evil masochism. I agree with >>75831246 you're a fucking heretic.
>>75820059
>Deleting the OP picture
Who did this?
>>75831762
You would actually like the Old Testament.
It's all about how the Jews had their shot with God but screwed it up by being ungrateful.
>>75832244
You want to spam links because you aren't intellectually capable of defending yourself?
http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?741-Why-Calvinism-is-so-completely-and-utterly-wrong!
>>75820059
If Adam and Eve were white, why are there races in this modern day?
>>75832428
im sorry God hurts your feelings
>>75832635
Mark of Cain
Regional differences.
>>75832244
Calvinism is hard to defend when YHWH lets others decide the destiny of Ahab in 1 Kings 22.
>>75832428
If God had created us as mindless drones who can only see, feel and do good as God wants us to, then we would not be free to make our own choices.
Keep in mind that Adam and Eve were in literal paradise, and they chose to disobey Gods commands.
Human nature includes curiosity, and that means many of us will choose evil.
That choice must be there.
Would you prefer not to exist?
>>75832527
John 6:37 FOR ALL THE LORD HAS GIVEN TO ME, WILL COME TO ME, AND THOSE WHO COME TO ME I WILL NOT CAST OUT,
God gives people to Jesus, and Jesus attones his life for them, i gave you four passages and you didnt respond to any of them.
i dont think you have to be a calvinist to go to heaven, its just how salvation works
i am sorry if the God of the Bible offends you, but the all powerful creater of the universe can do what he wishes to do
>>75832635
How do you know they were white? Go back to your earliest memory when you first heard the story...where did that image come from? Was the reader white? Where the people around you white? Etc etc...
YOU DON'T EVEN EXIST BUDDY!
>>75832635
Ever notice how people closer to the equator have darker skin?
They adapted to their environment.
>>75832751
>1 Kings 22.
um he can create people to do a certain will that created person wants to do, God can use wicked people, for his Good
>>75832635
>Assume they're white
Well cause the Israelites were Semites it easy conclude that they were too.
>>75833201
You can't actually assume they were white because of the Israelites.
Pre-Flood World was an entirely different world, it had giants and humans were living centuries longer. Who knows what else was happening.
>>75832977
I see. You are absolutely blinded by Satan and consumed in your idolatry of total depravity, which isn't Biblical in any sense. There is still time, if you die this way, you will not enter the kingdom of God.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c59ip-iDORI
>>75833331
The Israelites came from Noah and his family. Noah also descends from Adam.
>>75833467
Oh, that's a good point. Checkmate friendo.
>>75832788
>If God had created us as mindless drones who can only see, feel and do good as God wants us to, then we would not be free to make our own choices.
Calvinists believe God makes the choice for everyone. So we're puppets and God wanted a little paradise and a little masochism in his galactic play.
I hope reality isn't that shit tier.
>Keep in mind that Adam and Eve were in literal paradise, and they chose to disobey Gods commands.
They were fucking fooled. They had no understanding of what would happen.
Is your argument that free beings have to be able to choose something wrong in order to grow? Then why does "something wrong" carry such draconian consequences? Why not make a world were beings can fuck up a bit and get a little punishment to learn and grow, but not be damned forever?
Adam and Eve ate a fucking piece of fruit and Earth became a shit tier world of gross pain and suffering. How is that fair? How is that just? What good could come of that?
>Would you prefer not to exist?
I don't accept your false dilemma.
>>75832977
>but the all powerful creater of the universe can do what he wishes to do
At a basic level, yes.
But he cannot claim to be X then do things that violate the very definition he gives for X.
If Calvinism is true then that is exactly what is happening.
>>75833513
>Calvinists believe God makes the choice for everyone. So we're puppets and God wanted a little paradise and a little masochism in his galactic play.
Calvinists are insane.
This is why we need a united Church with Doctrine and Dogma that is immovable so that people can't be led astray to believe shit like that.
>>75833373
saw this already, not a good response, has no biblical basis, Ephesians was written for the church of Ephesus not for Jews, im the one following the Bible on what grounds can you question my salvation, are you catholic or arminian?
>>75822298
It's your opinion
It's your question begging epithet
It's not logic
>>75833584
Read Romans 9, God has no obligation to save anyone, Jesus Died for his sheep John 10
>>75833158
It means then that the elohim that YHWH created in his council then are not free to decide willingly what to do, it makes the case harder then to why the sons of god came to earth and bred offspring if YHWH predestined them to do so, again Ahab chose freely to sin like the Israelites did again and again, there was more freedom of will for them to choose between good and evil.
>>75833630
Not Biblical?
It has nothing but Bible verses in it. Which refute the four you bring up. Calvinists also change meanings of words in the SCRIPTURE.
Which is forbidden. See Revelations.
You believe Jesus did not die for everyone.
Therefore, you don't believe in Jesus. I will pray for your soul, because as of now you are in danger.
>>75833513
>They were fucking fooled. They had no understanding of what would happen.
Doesn't matter, God told them not to do it, and they did it anyway. You can't just go around disobeying a direct command from God like that.
>Is your argument that free beings have to be able to choose something wrong in order to grow?
No.
>Why not make a world were beings can fuck up a bit and get a little punishment to learn and grow, but not be damned forever?
Big difference between doing something wrong and growing from it, and choosing actively to follow evil.
>>75831514
Are you actually Calvinist? Just curious.
>>75833626
>Calvinists are insane.
We're in agreement on something.
But that still leaves me stumbling over the question: why this world? Why such a draconian response to Adam and Eve? Why not stick around and guide man?
I just don't get it.
>>75833776
Read John 6:37
and God hardened pharoes heart
>>75833749
Are you Jewish? Because Jesus said himself He only came for the lost sheep of Israel.
If you want to use Jesus only died for "x", then he also only came for "x'. In which case, if you aren't Jewish, you cannot be saved.
Which means you are being controlled by Satan. It is easily perceptible by your diversion, improper exegesis of scripture, unable to defend your beliefs, ignore the rest of the entire Bible, and don't even listen to reason backed by Scripture.
>>75832517
Probably the Mod
But porn, "/pol/ btfo" and "really makes you think" threads stay up
>>75833940
Read the rest of the Bible you heretic.
>>75833901
>>75833626
Pray for him with me.
>>75833887
>i told my 4yo not to walk in the street
>he did it any way
>now he's paralyzed in a hospital for life
>i COULD fix it, but fuck the little shit
>he disobeyed my direct command
Is this really the creator of the universe?
>protip: you put a fence up or you don't let your child into the front yard unsupervised
>Big difference between doing something wrong and growing from it, and choosing actively to follow evil.
So Eve, who was fooled according to the Bible itself, and Adam, who in a split second had to choose between the command of a God who wasn't there and the woman he loved, were "actively following evil"?
How do I put this a strongly as I can...if I had the power to create a universe, I would NEVER create one like this and NEVER do what God did in Eden.
So what does that mean? Am I more loving / compassionate / caring / wise than God?
I hope not.
WTF is going on here?
>>75834136
I've read quite a bit, and that's why reformed seems most accurate
>>75833887
Yes
>>75834136
>Pray for him with me.
I don't feel like my prayers are worth anything. That's the seed that has led to my stumbling and questioning.
I feel like when I have needed God's help the most he has left me to suffer.
And then I look at the world and wonder who he helps?
I would pray all night for the whole world if I thought it would make any difference.
>>75833940
I'm too much of an Old Testament buff, I can't give too much theology to John 6:37, pharaoh's hardening of heart happened because of the sin he has caused by refusing to give YHWH his son Israel that he has chosen to build his kingdom of priests. He didn't predestine him to have his heart harden or control his very being but did it to humiliate him and their false gods that they believe have power only YHWH obtains.
>>75833901
I can't claim to know all of Gods reasons.
But I can tell you what I think.
God created us in his image. He didn't create Angels in his image, or other creatures in his image. He created them with intelligence and the ability to make conscious decisions. But with mankind, he made them in his image.
That means that each of us has in many ways the nature of God. The only difference being that we are not perfect and that we sin.
Free will is not something new or exclusive to mankind. It exists also for Angels. Lucifer chose to rebel against God.
It's something that would have occurred whether or not Adam and Eve ate from the fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Because that is the way of imperfect creatures, some of us rebel.
We fell, and it is up to us to try and seek God. But God will guide us if we seek him, and there are many details I'm sure you're curious about.
Such as whether or not someone who never even gets the chance to hear about God is damned. The answer to that question is no.
>>75834092
That's because Christians are so much more inappropriate that Australians posting dicks every few hours right?
>>75833845
Does not refute John 6:37
And there are others Romans 9
If Jesus died for everyone, I guess everyone goes to heaven, wait that's not biblical because we know some people are going to hell, so how could he at tone for the sins of all yet some go to hell
>>75825247
I might be digressing, but what about Creation? Was there ever a probability of something being created from nothing?
I would say no, as it is simply impossible for something like that to happen. Matter as it exists now has existed in the same amount as it has forever. What else could have created matter?
>>75822947
Common sense to find metaphor behind the scripture? Yeah. Not many people take the Genesis story (or any Old Testament scripture) WORD FOR WORD, as it was not meant to be.
>>75834442
According to this mod?
Apparently
I miss the old mod that moot got rid of shortly after the /pol/ harbor attacks.
He even warned us what moot was planning on doing shortly after being axed
Link to a useful letter by John Paul II. Worth the read.
>Salvifici Doloris
>On the Meaning of Christian Suffering
https://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_letters/1984/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris.html
Do enjoy.
>>75823765
An image is not an exact copy.
>>75834752
What was that whole scenario again? I can't remember what was done.
>>75834759
Always good to see an old face
How are you Wolfshiem?
>>75834831
Moot hated /pol/ basically.
Were you here for the /pol/ocaust?
>>75834372
You don't believe in your own prayers. Suffering is not always a bad thing. You also need to realize some things are out of your control, mainly other people.
>>75834442
Thank you for the replies. I'm not sure I agree but...I'll think on it.
I really feel lost. I feel like I could follow / obey / love / worship Jesus Christ. But God the father I want to look right in the eye, throw up my arms, and be all "WTF dude?"
If that makes any sense.
>>75835052
You need to ask him for a changed mind
>>75834719
I've studied a bit of the Genesis creation narrative, the only way the people can understand it is in the context of ancient cosmology. The israelites literally thought the earth was flat with a solid dome on the top with door openings called flood gates. Evangelicals knows this to and have said that this doesn't impact inspiration theology, if you take the reformed approached that Calvin took which is that God condescended to their level of culture but didn't complicate the theology it makes sense. Genesis 1-2 in a nutshell is basically God chose to create the heaven and earth.
>>75835052
You're thinking of them as being so different.
But they're the same God.
>>75835114
Why even bother to convince people if you think everyone is pre-destined? I'm just curious.
>>75835001
>Suffering is not always a bad thing.
Suffering is to the point of being a very bad thing in my life.
Let me put it this way: if it wasn't for the pain it would cause my mother, I would off myself. I hate this world that much.
>>75834540
>so how could he at tone for the sins of all yet some go to hell
Because they never come to believe in Him and be baptized, the redemption powers of Christ do not change or waver because people don't come to the light of Christ, the free gift of life for all who seek it is still there for them.
