Who here /Stage 4/ yet?
>>75638925
>>75638925
I dont know what to read or where to find it
>>75638925
I was stage 1 for the longest time but the things that have happened in the recent years have evolved me into stage 3.
Maybe I'll get to 4 some day
>>75638925
Been stage 4 for years
>>75638925
Was never stage 1 or 3. Went from libertarian to stage 4 and now I'm an anarcho-capitalist but recognize that traditionalism is the way to go if you must have a government.
stage 4's argument is shit
>because this is the definition of a constitution, I have the moral high ground
>>75638925
before /pol/ i was between 2 and 3 now i'm 4
>>75639783
>anarcho-capitalist
>red-pilled
>>75638925
>tfw slowly moving towards stage 4
>>75638925
I never will. Stage 4 is not made for an industrial society, stage 3 exactly is. Fascism is basically the modern version of ancien régime traditionalism
>>75639861
I think you missed the point. He's saying that specific constitution is based on the false assumption that people are the same everywhere. Laws which work for the French would not work for the Chinese, for example, or for Arabs. You can't legislate for "humanity" as if we're homogenous, cultures aren't differently-coloured lego blocks that you can just swap and change as you please.
>>75638925
>step 4: i wish i was a serf for a king
I don't think I'll ever be this retarded.
These charts never show the stage 5. I think it's because almost nobody gets to it, and incidentally stage 5 on this chart would be the final stage of every other political alignment chart - inevitabilism. I think that's especially poignant for right wing ideologies because the traditionalist stage 4 has learned to recognize patterns in human behavior, has some understanding of the biological basis of them, but they've not yet expanded their observations to fit the modern world. They're still prescriptivists, rather than descriptivists, seeing human behavior as something that can be optimized rather than an uncontrollable force.
>>75640075
>who is Ted Kaczynski
>>75640089
what stops a liberal from just saying "thats racist" like they would to the first one? This argument falls apart when you realize liberals can use the same logic for that, that they do for every other argument that contains sentiments about race and culture. They would literally say "are you saying all people aren't fundamentally the same? Are you a fucking racist bigot saying a man in asia doesn't have the capacity for compassion like a frenchman would?
>>75638925
Libertarianism is the 3rd stage red-pill.
Communism is the 4th stage red-pill.
>>75640135
>it's the current year guys!
>>75640229
You're at stage .5, which is memespouting. I wasn't saying that. I can go into detail if you want but I think you're probably not going to be able to handle it. If you want to learn something about inevitability though read Glubb.
>>75640268
You're just a defeatist cuck masquerading as a realist.
>>75640183
Nothing, but liberals lose the argument when they pull that card so long as you're not weak or stupid enough to relent. Hold frame, double down, challenge them on their definition of racism. Typically, they'll try to dodge the question, eventually arriving at a definition that either doesn't include your argument or is self-evidently not a bad thing. And above all, remember that you're not trying to persuade them. They're too far gone. All you can do is embarrass them in front of an audience, or just amuse yourself if no audience is present.
>>75640075
This. Traditionalism will never rise again except in a few nations where monarchy still exists: UK, Belgium and so on. Fascism is the way to go for the majority of modern countries.
>>75640329
It's not that I have a problem with the word cuck, I think it's applicable in a great many situations, but you're still being memey. Cut it out, this thread has potential.
>>75638925
Present!
There are only three stages.
>>75639783
Capitalism is incompatible with tradition. It destroys everything for profit.
>>75638925
Where does MAGAcrat fit in?
>>75640131
>t.prole of an oligarch
>>75640268
I am interested, can you do a quick summary?
Is it just accepting the futile cycle of human civilisations?
>>75640398
Not when it's filled with defeatist cuckolds and newfags that think this circlejerk thread is original.
Im in a special kind of stage 4, its called nazism
>>75638925
Pretty much always been at Stage 4. Those systems were without a doubt more stable and beneficial for society. Still the majority is wealthier in the current system so brief prosperity wins through.
>>75640494
Everywhere and nowhere. All four stages have their own reasons to support Trump. Really, the only people who don't are those who hate America, none of whom are on this chart.
>>75640135
Soo.... stage 5 is nihilism?
>>75638925
You can get to stage four unless you get to stage 3 and that requires getting rid of Jews. Take control of your government.
>>75639358
>I dont know what to read or where to find it
http://www.counter-currents.com/
that one is a nice website
>>75640536
It's just a simplistic description of decadence and a loose identification of various eras empires are destined to go though.
>Lolbertarians thinking they are redpilled
Just no
i will stay stage 2 forever fuck you
>>75640536
I cited glubb and the fate of empires because I think it's the essential work for that purpose, yes, but it's not just civilization cycles. There's also an implied understanding of how biology changes with the circumstances of one's society; this is where r/K selection theory becomes extremely important. You have to detach yourself from the idea of human exceptionalism (well, leftists do: on the right, you really need to discard RACIAL exceptionalism and understand that even the most successful races are a human subspecies and therefore animals) and realize that our animal natures are ill-suited to perpetual success and vigor.
>>75640606
I wouldn't say that, but it's only for the connotations.
I'm probably in between 3 and 4. I'm not really smart enough to be a neo-reactionary, just read a bunch of stuff on wikipedia.
>>75638925
>not being a Republican
the American constitution outlined one of the best governments known to man, it's corruption by politicians and progressives is a shame.
im about stage 3 now
Who has read Burke here?
>>75640701
r/K selection doesn't even hold up. This is such fucking basic secular sophist cancer It's hard to seriously believe you think it would be a "stage 5"
>>75640836
R A R E
A
R
E
I'm stage 3 too but it's only a matter of time before I get to stage 4.
>>75640874
>r/K selection doesn't even hold up
In what possible respect?
>>75640487
>destroys everything for profit
Destruction isn't very profitable anon.
>when you're too stupid to pass stage 3
>>75639783
Niggers are only a problem if there is a state. Got it.
>>75639861
Human rights are trash. Law not based on tradition is just alienating and always ends up with internal strugles.
>>75638925
>>75638925
>Went from Traditionalism to Anarcho-Capitalism, but recognize that traditionalism is the way to go if you must have a government.
Then you didn't understand Traditionalism at all.
Without hierarchy, humanity falls apart.
Sure, you could have a functional anarcho-capitalist society, it's called having a farm near a few other farmers in the middle of nowhere, population: 100
>>75640075
>Fascism is basically the modern version of ancien régime traditionalism
No it is not. Stop using the word "basically" - it is a non-argument used by plebbitors, liberals, and SJWs.
>>75640381
A hierarchy will naturally and necesserily rise after the fall of our present day civilization. The incoming wars will mean the birth of a new elite.
Neither the ordinary man, or their government is capable or even willing of defending themselves.
This objective will fall on the shoulders of a few differentiated men, who'll rise through the ranks not because they licked the arse of the plebs with their empty promises, but because of natural selection in war and politics.
>>75638925
Stage 5 is definitely some kind of mixture of Traditionalism and Confucianism.
I just don't buy blood based monarchism, it seems too easy to exploit, fail and be corrupted. There's no actual virtue in place, though a king may be expected to act virtuous, there's been too many cases throughout history of a leader turning corrupt or degenerative.
Some kind of meritocracy, perhaps with a lower Parliament to act as representatives of the people, but a higher meritocratic council above it where individuals are selected through a process of value testing, or an Imperial examination, where a non biased markers select certain individuals as ministers over others.
This creates a natural hierarchical system where the strongest and those with the greatest values are place in government. Maybe there can be some kind of monarch, but only engages in Wu Wei philosophy at all times. There also should be some kind of constitution which limits the state's powers to some degree.
Seems the most intelligent to me. Better than Democracy, which is too easily influenced by finance and sociopaths, and a dictatorship which too easily fails due to the fact we haven't discovered how to make someone immortal yet, meaning we'll turn into Rome and end up having degenerative leader after degenerative leader. Maybe one day we could have a God Emperor, but until then, I'm sticking with Meritocracy.
>>75640894
In the respect that there are countless exceptions to it in the animal kingdom and the line is murky. it's a very general model that doesn't hold up under actual examination.
>>75640863
Dark and inscrutable are the ways by which we come into the world. The instincts which give rise to this mysterious process of nature are not of our making. But out of physical causes, unknown to us, perhaps unknowable, arise moral duties, which, as we are able perfectly to comprehend, we are bound indispensably to perform. Parents may not be consenting to their moral relation; but consenting or not, they are bound to a long train of burthensome duties towards those with whom they have never made a convention of any sort. Children are not consenting to their relation, but their relation, without their actual consent, binds them to its duties; or rather it implies their consent because the presumed consent of every rational creature is in unison with the predisposed order of things. Men come in that manner into a community with the social state of their parents, endowed with all the benefits, loaded with all the duties of their situation. If the social ties and ligaments, spun out of those physical relations which are the elements of the commonwealth, in most cases begin, and always continue, independently of our will, so without any stipulation, on our part, are we bound by that relation called our country, which comprehends (as it has been well said) “all the charities of all.” Nor are we left without powerful instincts to make this duty as dear and grateful to us, as it is awful and coercive.
>>75640836
A truely rare occurance of a flag, I concure.
>>75638925
Stage 2 libertarian, I don't care about the degeneracy of those around me, that is their choice, generally that degeneracy benefits me in some way anyhow.
>>75640973
It describes a scale of tendencies, not a pair of absolutes.
>>75640967
>people are just fucking making up stage 5s now to conform to their views
reddit in full force
Stage 3.5 master race reporting in.
>>75640183
>what stops a liberal from just saying "thats racist"
If it was racist,then African culture wasnt destroyed durong colonization,due to all humans being exactly the same. And we both know that they will never say crap like that. Culture and tradition is what builds true law,fit for the different people. Universal rights are just a meme
>>75640994
I believe that quote is wrongly attributed to Toqueville anon, I think it was a bad translation.
>>75638925
I incorporate all 4. Can't see myself stuck in one bottle.
>>75640605
New stage exclusive to Trump?
Call it the MAGAcracy and dress up like Wizards n'shiet.
Stage 3 here
>>75641051
same here my eternal friend
stage 3.5 is National Socialism essentially
>>75638925
There are only 3 stages
>>75641046
Ah, you must be stage 15, the "hello yes I am not Reddit as we speak, thus I am better than those people, watch as a point out this person and what he is doing in a snarky fashion. please 1+ me my dude friends whom browse this wonderful forum.".
>>75638925
Fucking shit man. I ALWAYS think about this image. I have two degrees in economics and love the Austrian school... but m8 I am in 3 now. I listened to the Libertarian Party's debates and... there is just no future for us there. Being a freedom lover of liberty requires you to be white, a male, and high IQ with good earning potential. But unfortunately, at this point, whites are dying out in America. Whites aren't even reproducing fast enough.
I'm throwing my towel in with Trump this year, and if that doesn't work out then I will study necromancy to bring Hitler back... maybe he can save us.
>>75640701
>I wouldn't say that, but it's only for the connotations.
Absurdism then, maybe?
Although, that's a strange intersection of political ideals for /pol/.
I'm at stage 6. I'm not going to write it as you wouldn't understand it. You have to get there through stage 5 to understand.
>>75641245
It doesn't matter what you call it. Inevitabilist is my personal term because I think it better evokes what I mean. Anyway I hang out on /pol/ because I like talking about politics even if I ultimately see things in biological patterns rather than moral struggles.
>>75640906
>walks in the park
>family dinner time
>nuclear family
All destroyed by
>the television
Which produces lots of
>$$$$$$
>>75641294
>>75641244
The Austrian school is god tier, but will never happen in real life, cause plebs are too used to controlling the state treasury for gibs me dat.
>>75640963
Well it is. Fascism was founded after WW1, when the old monarchies of Europe almost all died out. Their power was already limited since the French Revolution and they had made the switch from being international aristocracy to being national aristocracy, thinking about the interests of their nation first rather than the interests European aristocracy.
Fascism just took the authoritarian principles of the era prior to the French Revolution and modernized them. They also adapted the economic views of the traditionalist conservatives by launching corporatism, which is much better when you have large industries.
>>75640967
>I just don't buy blood based monarchism, it seems too easy to exploit, fail and be corrupted
>I believe in natural and nurtural differences in people, just look at the Negroes.
>However, it is purely bullcrap, I must say, that just because a family is composed of intelligent, well read, and healthy people who value virtues overall, that their children would turn out the same
Of course it is not a 100% thing, but still better chances than that someone from the ghetto would be a better suitor for a king or for holding an office.
Also the fall of virtues, even among the nobility, is inevitable after a time, see the cycle of civilizations.
Long term peace is corroding to a civilization, just like long term lazyness instead of hard work is to the soul.
An interesting theory I must say nontheless, it is similar to how Plato saw the ideal state.
>>75641360
Like other prescriptive political ideologies it's utopian and requires human beings don't behave as human beings.
>>75638925
I think you have to settle down and have a family in order to even grasp stage 4
>>75641074
Thank you, I will look after this.
Everyone in this thread is illiterate and pseudo-intellectual. Go fuck a girl if you're all so smart.
-Stanford student
You mean insufferable romanticism of the past?
There's another path, after libertarianism you begin modernism, become extremely selfcritical, start lifting and believe an unspoken role of society is to act eugenic and incentivise the strong.
Or... You become a fat, lazy neo Nazi who wants to blame fat, lazy migrants for his problems. You know, I bet that works... In a way.
Who second path here?
>>75639783
Stage 4 is easy to achieve in France. Once you learn about "the Enlightenment" and the Revolution you go down the rabbit hole.
The only thing is that I can't see how it can be applied today. Monarchy, aristocracy didn't save Britain or Belgium from degeneracy. Quite the contrary, they were the catalysts of it. The legitimate heir of the French throne is a freemason. There is no way out, we can just "ride the tiger" at this point and wait for the end of Kali Yuga.
>>75641294
The post
>>75640202
This is correct.
Stage 2 of course.
Also
>nationalism as Stage 3
This is a fucking joke.
>>75641532
Damn I wanna fuck that girls ass.
>>75640522
>t. slave who wishes he was an even bigger slave
There just aren't enough darn rules to follow! We need more rules, more censor!
>>75641371
The fundamental difference is that the traditionalist governments existed because the state was the private property of the monarch. In fascism, the government exists for the people, and leaders are not appointed by birthright, but by merit.
>>75641653
Brittan and Belgium didn't/don't have a real monarchy/aristocracy. brittain in particular is a slave to parliament, the monarchs power was weaseled away slowly from constitutional with checks and balances, to figurehead with no power, only influence.
>>75641532
Getting to stanford=smart?
If you were so smart, you wouldnt waste your fucking time.
>>75641598
this
>>75641653
Read de Maistre. Stay strong
>>75641103
A good picture.
>>75641371
>Their power was already limited since the French Revolution
That is absolutely true. I agree that a Traditionalist society can not happen until democracy and all liberalist/marxist tenets are crushed forcefully - which sadly can only happen by outside invaders, and not from the inside. I would be happy in the present with a fascist system, howewer it could only hold for a short period of time again, due to our present Zeitgeist
>thinking about the interests of their nations first rather than the interests European aristocracy.
I can think of an example when the Russian Tsar, after asking for his help, helped out the Austrian Kaiser to crush the (democratic/nationalist/separatist) Hungarian Revolution of 1848.
Howewer this was necessery in order to stop the movement before reaching Russia.
So this was not due to some brotherhood between aristocrats of far away lands.
Could you give me examples of what were you excactly thinking about? Monarchs and nobles were preoccupied with their country/land and themselves first, not with the aristocracy of other countries, to my knowledge.
>>75640836
>>75640836
witnessed
>>75641091
Stop trying to turn Trump supporters into clowns.
>>75640131
Being a Serf is fine. Most of the rural Pacific Northwest were worked for or because of the Murphy family and the Pacific Lumber Company for generations, then the Left gutted the lumber industry and some faceless corporation bought out the other shareholders in the company and began clear cutting the forest. The Murphy's were tied to the land and the people so they always did shelterwood logging to keep the logging communities alive. When they had control of the company taken away, we lost everything. Now the rural Pacific North West is filled with dead or dying communities riddled with drug abuse problems and poverty. If we could go back to the way things used to be, you can bet your ass we would.
>>75641749
to dawg don't be posting her without permission
>>75641653
How were Britain and Belgium the catalysts of degeneracy? More like Germany and the US
>>75642181
>Monarchs and nobles were preoccupied with their country/land and themselves first, not with the aristocracy of other countries, to my knowledge.
The church would often entice others to get involved, hence why england owned sicily for awhile etc. There were also royal lines with influence in many kingdoms, essentially having a loose blood alliance.
>>75642303
>i wish i were a serf
Can't make this shit up.
>>75641303
The problem is that you have chosen to accept the abstraction of the "state" as an actual existing being. Empires are abstractions, just easy descriptions of certain groups of people that lived during a certain time.
You're missing the bigger picture. While yes all empire ends, you have to look at the lot of people as individuals. While the collapse of the Assyrian and Roman Empires were tragic and hurt people's lives tremendously, look at the fall of the Spanish and British Empires. The British and Spanish people still lead healthy and luxurious lives.
Empires will fall, but people will continue to progress. While /pol/ likes to talk a mean talk about race, in the end the torch of civilization has been passed down from one group to another over millenia. It doesn't matter who holds it, but that prosperity and wealth continue to accumulate for the individual.
Even in destitute places such as Africa the light of progress has made life better for people there. While human progress may work in cycles, the cycles advance us ever forward. We are the better through every collapse and renewal of empire.
>>75642443
I think the frog is saying your monarchies were catalysts for degeneracy instead of being bulwarks against it.
>>75640135
>>75640701
That's pretty interesting, I can tell you're a fan of Spengler, which he practically saw civilizations grow like biological lifeforms which is pretty surreal when you think about it hard enough. I'll check out Glubb.
>>75641419
>Also the fall of virtues, even among the nobility, is inevitable after a time, see the cycle of civilizations.
You're certainly right, decline is constant and will always occur. Monarchism could work simply because of passing down superior genetics. Still, a monarch at the top, with a council of value selected ministers and a lower house of a weak representation of the populace could work, as a matter of fact that's how it's worked for most civilizations, only problem is the nobility always declines into degeneracy and the civilization fails. Too much reliance on nobility rather than values and ideals, especially since nobles gobble up too much power and end up keeping out anyone else.
>>75642475
>There were also royal lines with influence in many kingdoms
Which avoided many wars for austria.
>>75642505
>I'd rather serf the jews
You really can't
>>75638925
DELETE THIS
>>75638925
non faggots skip 1 and 2 btw.
>>75641653
>aristocracy didn't save Britain or Belgium from degeneracy
The UK and Belgium are only nominally monarchies. The monarchs do not hold any power at all. This has been the case for quite a while now.
The English (right next to the French) were always on the frontline of degeneracy regarding society in the Evolan sense.
The commons already got representation in the British Parliament by 1215 with Magna Carta.
Henry VII took military power from nobles at the end of the 15th century.
They changed to a Republic after the execution of their king in the the middle of the 17th century, even if for a short time, but this tells you how Order didn't hold up in Britain in comparision to Eastern countries.
>>75642443
>>75642553
I believe what he meant is that
>Beligum and UK are monarchies
>Why are they degenerate then?
Only that they are not monarchies and they don't have hierarchy which is a basis of the Evolan state.
Bit different for me
>stage 1
Radical liberal
>stage 2
Lean liberal
>stage 3
Moderate
>stage 4
Libertarian
>current
Moderate with some libertarian values that leans conservative and is heavily anti immigration.
>>75642475
>here were also royal lines with influence in many kingdoms, essentially having a loose blood alliance.
That is a good thought, certainly not dismissible, thank you.
>>75642181
fuck those nazis got brainwashed as fuck. Feel sorry for this guy who was so in tow he had to be willfully ignorant of the horrors of teh regime.
The problem with stage 4, which is the correct and sustainable one, is that it only works for people that lived up until 50/60.
People are pushing 80 90 now.
You cant fight against that and will soon be washed away by the "new world" without inprinting any of the values and beleifs onto others
That and open borders
Lets face it, tradicionalism and welfare state are over, savage capitalism opened the boarders and everyone from the left to the right is losing.
>>75642562
I can choose which city I live in, what job I have, start a small business.
I'd love to keep it that way, rather than enter a voluntary slavery to whoever has the old money.
Wanting to regress back to """traditionalism""" is retarded.
Taking opportunities away from the individual is never worth it.
>>75642713
Actually Oliver Cromwells government was more of a military backed theocracy, with Cromwel as an uncrowned king, he even dissolved more parliaments than Charles I.
>>75642505
>The drive for profit at the expense of the community was so devastating that being bound to work the land familialy in exchange for the benefits of a functioning community would seem preferable
This is surprising to you?
>>75641419
Here's probably the best way to describe my personal ideal state, just to add on top of this >>75642560
>Han Fei's "The Tao of the Sovereign" reads: "The ruler must not reveal his wants. For, if he reveals his wants, the ministers will polish their manners accordingly. The ruler must not reveal his views. For, if he reveals his views, the ministers will display their hues differently." Hence another saying: "If the like and hate of the ruler be concealed, the true hearts of the ministers will be revealed. If the experience and wisdom of the ruler be discarded, the ministers will take precautions."
>Accordingly, the ruler, wise as he is, should not bother but let everything find its proper place; worthy as he is, should not be self-assumed but observe closely the ministers' motivating factors of conduct; and, courageous as he is, should not be enraged but let every minister display his prowess. So, leave the ruler's wisdom, then you will find the ministers' intelligence; leave the ruler's worthiness, then you will find the ministers' merits; and leave the ruler's courage, then you will find the ministers' strength. In such cases, ministers will attend to their duties, magistrates will have definite work routine, and everybody will be employed according to his special ability. Such a course of government is called "constant and immutable".
>>75642383
You gonna stop me, senpai?
>>75638925
Stage 3 reporting in.
>>75641122
Do counter arguments to this truth even exist?
I find it hard to debate it.
>>75642505
>i wish i were a serf
Serfdom happened because of the fall of urban societies, weak central power, and continous outside attacks of Europe.
Of course serfdom is painted as poor, radiant people opressed just because of their mudbloodedness, by their Satan worshipping, neonazi overlords - we live in a liberalist (marxism light) society, history has to be curved to the likings of the government, so they can control the masses.
If you were born into those times, you would WANT to be a serf, because then you'd have protection from invaders, thanks to the nobles and their army. Without the nobles, there would have been no armies. Without the armies, there would have been no civilization. Without civilization you would have died - that is, of course, if you are not an anarcho-capitalist libertarian, because then you would just build a farm for yourselves and tell invaders to follow the Non Agression Principle.
Having a monarch and having a clear hierarchy in society does not mean you would have to be a serf. Serfdom was due to the mainly agrarian economy/society. It could not happen again, unless our technology and knowledge is destroyed.
There's your (You).
>>75642873
>I'd love to keep it that way
You can
>Wanting to regress back to """traditionalism""" is retarded
Source?
Would you rather be a servant to the jews or an ally to the king?
>>75642937
you're such a creeper anon
>>75643279
>mud farmer
>"ally to the king"
top fucking kek
>>75642716
It's not different for you then you jut stepped back. Read more
>>75642860
>The problem with stage 4, which is the correct and sustainable one, is that it only works for people that lived up until 50/60.
Why?
>>75638925
I'd say I'm stage 3, I sympathize with NatSoc but I'm more NatCap
>>75638925
I was stage 2 for most of my life, growing up in a conservative household. I've moved on to stage 3 since becoming an adult.
I can't call myself stage 4, history is full of examples of the abuses of monarchies. The USA literally exists because of the excesses of the British throne. Plus, once you get into (hereditary) monarchies, you remove the ability of the common man to force his way to the top.
>>75643314
What you describe is modernisation in technology not in society. You realize you can keep all modern technology?
Stage 5 is embracing the word of the Prophet (PBUH) and submitting to Islam.
Stage 3 here.
>>75638925
Stage 4 here for 1 or 2 years now.
>>75643303
m-moar, senpai?
>>75643478
I was born in a village with 800 population.
My father turns illegally working in construction projects and being unemployed.
My mother worked as a clerk in a small mini market.
In your dream utopia I'd be stuck in that little village, with no industry, working a dead end shit job.
Instead I took a loan, moved to the capital, took a job, went to university, now I am a programmer and on the side growing my own business, soon to escape to it with my loyal customers who enjoy working with me.
You know, I advanced. Instead of trying to bring everyone down to your level like the golden good ol days, try advancing yourself.
>>75643605
>In your dream utopia I'd be stuck in that little village
>people before the revolution never took on new jobs or discovered new things
"No."
>>75643698
>i hate capitalism!! i want serfdom back!!
>but of course you would be allowed to freely quit your job and move to another city to take on a debt for education and then get a new career and start your own business :)
So you are a capitalist who is trying to look hipster by adopting a new label. Cute.
>>75643429
Abuses of power can be put down on check through force,as has happened before. Traditionalism is not against that. The bases of traditionalism is that society is based on tradition,which is organic,and changes gradually through time. Without tradition,the cohesion of society just falls apart and bloodbaths and tyranny flourishes. The destruction of tradition is what has weaked the west so much,as the traditional social cohesion has been put into question.
>>75640135
>If I call being a lazy coward cuck bitch "inevitibilism", I'll sound smart on the internet!
Nice one goy.
>>75643763
Your own buzzwords have gotten to your head sweetie.
>>75643605
You just described technological advancement. Nothing to do with traditionalism. People could move upwards in old societies,but as technology was lower,most people needed to work in the fields to feed the population.
>>75643876
Nice non argument.
>>75643888
Do you even know what serfdom means? You were shackled to the land you worked. If you moved to another place, you'd be arrested and brought back.
>>75643938
You are the only one talking about serfdom you braindead retard which is why I said your buzzwords got to your head.
>If you moved to another place, you'd be arrested and brought back
Don't post here until you finished 6th grade
>>75642560
One could take a look at the Roman Empire then.
Sometimes an Emperor succeded because of heritary right, but other times because he was backed by the military, or he even had to use that military, sometimes because he was backed by more nobles, or he was simply chosen by the senate.
These turbulencies mainly occured during the 3rd, 4th, and 5th century of Rome, after the Golden Age.
>>75642935
Thanks for sharing your views, I'll look into Confucius and Han Fei: The Tao of the Sovereign, I've already started reading Machiavelli's The Prince. His image, again, was painted with mud during modern times. Nothing is true of what you hear about "Machiavellianism" and how evil he was. He wrote essays regarding both Monarchism and republics.
What he wrote is obvious truth, to the minds of any sane man who values traditional values.
Of course then, anyone with the values of liberalism/marxism, and the slave morality coming with the values will look at it in horror and see the Anti-Christ himself in Niccolo Machiavelli.
I don't even know what I am anymore.
I started out as a "realist", if you can even say that, socialist. I believed in helping the poor and underprivileged (not trans bullshit, but amputees, vets, people who got a stroke, basically anyone unable to feed themselves for reasons out of their control).
Now that I've worked for some years at shit retail jobs to finance my studies, I've seen what kind of people leech off of this system: alcoholics, junkies, people so fat they begin to literally rot, and they use this money for what? Alcohol, tobacco and junk food.
So I tried to be a nationalist. But try to be a nationalist here, its impossible, not because of the extreme bias of the public against it, which is there, but didn't keep me from trying to do whats right. Its this nation that offers precisely nothing in terms of belonging, so to say.
Its hard to formulate in another language, but imagine you're from a savage culture where might means right no matter what, you rape a girl and thats it for example, no consequences. Then you come here, basically get showered with free money and housing and get limited political immunity. Everyone slaves away to get by, but you and your pals just sit there, do nothing like you always did and get rewarded for it by our people. Its not too hard to see why they think we're their slaves, we do everything slaves do for them, smiling and even congratulating them for their non-work, excusing every wrong they do.
They way I see it, they have no motivation at all to integrate, and rightfully so. If you have the choice to basically do nothing productive, take every woman you want, get an unlimited out-of-jail-free card and get paid for it on top, would you trade it in for an existence where you work 40h+ a week in a mind numbing soul crushing job, fork over at least 30% of your income to the state of which you'll see nothing ever again and get proclaimed a nazi pig everytime you dare to critisize this?
>>75642505
>>75643605
My father worked for the Murphy's, so did his father, and his father before him. We had livelihoods and so did the rest of the people in our community. The Murphy's, thanks to the left and an unscrupulous corporation that exploited the conditions created by the Left, are gone and now all we have is poverty and drugs. Our communities don't grow anymore, meth is an epidemic as is the new trend of Honey Oil. Almost everyone from where I came from would choose to go back to the way things were under the Murphy's. I left and I'm getting my degree in mechatronic engineering now, but most of my people will never have that opportunity.
>>75642516
The question then becomes, what towards?
>>75644006
>ur brainded
>ur retard
>ur young
Not arguments.
>>75643538
don't be creepin
>>75640967
>Confucianism
Well meme'd
>>75644085
Neither is your obsession with agricultural serfdom; you can't even get that side of things right though.
>>75644056
Your settlement is going bankrupt and you feel the whole world has to be redesigned because of that.
I'd suggest instead of that you'd move to a better settlement, and live and work there. You are free to do so, because we aren't living by your proposed rules.
>>75644125
>>75644125
I'm just lurkin' in the thread, bro.
>>75644085
The fact that you treat serfdom as a "job" like it's some surrogate activity shows you don't even understand the question.
>>75638925
Fixed it for you.
I'm at Stage 2, libertarianism, but if given the choice between living in a libertarian world or a Nazi world, I'd choose the latter. I only adopt libertarian ways to mask my hatred for degeneracy. But still, the free market takes good care of degenerate leftists (ie. let's them starve on the street)
>>75644069
A fairer, more intelligent, and more wealthy society in a literal sense. But if you're talking about in an ultimate sense, I can't really say. Who knows why we are here in an ultimate sense? Politics won't give us that answer.
>>75643938
>You were shackled to the land you worked
No. And serfdom was a result of the biggest economic crisis in the history of Europe. Tradition also changes with time,you are the only one talking about this crap. Btw,serfs could leave the land of the lord and in some places like Castile,could even claim the noble that they wanted,regardless of the land.
>>75638925
Skipped stage 2 desu, and I think stage 3 is comfortably appropriate and necessary for the times we live in.
>>75644265
>climb half the mountain
>proclaim where I stand as new top
>mock everyone climbing higher, and say how unnecessary it is to climb further since you claim your spot is the new top
I bet you're fat too
>>75643938
Strange how you didn't react to my arguments though.
Yes, serfdom was pointless during its end. What you don't get is that it was born out of necessity due to the decay of urban living around the end/after the end of the Roman Empire.
And that Monarchy, hierarchy, and Traditionalist societies don't necesserary include serfs. As I said, it couldn't happen again, because we don't live in agricultural societies anymore.
Your historical knowledge seems to only reach Hollywoodian presentations of the Middle-Ages, memes, and marxist obscurements of history.
Please move on from this strawman argument now, peasant.
>>75644306
In Serfdom you owe the upcoming year's labor to your master.
You can leave, if you leave empty handed and immediately following a harvest.
If you stay a bit, you owe to work next year too.
So good luck being mobile.
And serfdom would be the alternative to free market capitalism in your traditionalist society.
Unless you actually want a free market capitalism with a racist state, which is most likely what you are after reading the thread. Just say you want niggers out and stop playing with big words.
>>75644485
I want traditionalism so retards like you aren't allowed to vote :)
>>75644466
>it was useful a thousand years ago
Okay. Its not useful now, so stop promoting it.
>you can have a single tyrant that owns everything, and divides the land between his few lords, without serfrom
Not really, and if you took the time to consider how such a system's economy would work you'll find our that quickly.
>>75644566
Nice non argument.
You are 3/3, I think its time you sat on the bench.
>>75638925
I'd say I'm a stage 2.5 but turning the corner on being /stage 3/.
>>75644485
I suppose to a degree that is the truth. People work a lot better when they have a common, national goal. Multi-culturalism (not multi-ethnicity, which is completely fine in principle) keeps people arguing petty shit and forgetting that theres a greater good of everyone needing to eat and survive.
Imagine if you could stop Sunni's and Shiites killing each other, what they could achieve.
>>75644594
You'd be a lot happier if you learned to accept your lot in life. Mud farmer is your vocation.
>>75644631
>People work a lot better when they have a common, national goal.
Okay. How do we determine that goal?
We vote on it? Now we are a democracy.
A committee of specialists decide on it and enforce it? Now we are communists.
To be traditionalist we should have one ivory tower fag decide on it, and force everyone into doing it, agreement or not. Your king demands that the national goal be building a big ass castle with a garden and fountain. Best work on it, else its the gulags for you.
>>75644746
Insulting me instead of arguing me doesn't help your cause.
>>75640606
Nihilism must be passed through by those who with the fortitude to do so; there is a life that is more than life which should be the direction of every traditionalist society. You cannot pass from traditionalism into nihilism; to do so would be a clear regression and any claiming to have done so did not experience or understand what is meant by tradition.
This was a good thread, thanks to everyone who provided value and arguments
(Peace be upon the shiny head of Stean Molyneux)
>>75638925
/Stage 2/ Masterrace reporting in.
>>75644570
The point he's trying to get through your dense skull is traditionalism != serfdom.
>>75644454
>complains about mocking
>mocks me instead of arguing
de Maistre would be proud of your representation of values ITT -- that of a petulant child. Leading by example.
I've always marvelled at the power of this "stages of redpill" form of arguing, especially the macro in OP that claims
>traitionalism is the final, deepest realization
When esoterics and radical traditionalists were, historically, the very ones who created fascist movements to retrieve Traditions from the pit of Liberalism. What kind of shallow, nonsensical student of these traditionalists (or of fascists, libertarians, etc) would construct such a strange argument. It almost seems like an intentional misdirection tactic -- you want to supress the militant radical form of traditionalism for the LARPing and posing of thinkers who lived during the French revolution. It's just another form of sidelining and spreading defeatism. What will all these traditionalists do to save society? Sit on 4chins and shitpost?
My edit made you pretty mad.
That's telling, huh?
Not one day without tricks.
;^)
>>75644485
Kek. You are missing the point entirely. You arent very sharp are you? Why the fuck would I bother to moderate what I believe in an anonymus board? Traditionalism is based around old laws, an systems of goverment that have been working for ages. When you try to kill tradition you end up with clusterfucks like the French or Bolshevik revolution. Tradition adapts gradually,with technology. Your autistic focus in serfdom,which wasnt as bad as you paint it, just blinds you. Tradition is the basic cohesive force of a society,which unifies people from different social stratas,in a set of rules,that change as dociety change. When you destroy it,you just end up alienating people,and causing at the end a bloodbath. Capitalism or other economic models could coexist in a traditionalist regime. In fact it has happened before.
>>75644854
How does the economy work in your traditionalist society, anon?
Its either serfdom, or its regular capitalism with a metal hat on top of the president's head.
So which is it, are you going too far, or not far enough?
>>75644897
Stop insulting me and make a point, cuck.
Explain how your traditionalist economy works.
>>75641122
>>75641122
Can someone explain labour based currency to me?
Post stage 4 here in favor of varied local rule mediated by an authoritarian technocracy.
>>75644016
I guess Western civilization is reaching an unstable (i.e. will collapse) endpoint, where it will degenerate due to both internal (social movements) and externel (immigration of hostile culture) factors. It stopped making sense to participate, because all advantages are going down the drain, or simply have a too low profit/effort ratio. For this reason, and nihilism in general, I have become an anti-natilist, and I think pursuing higher forms of art and philosphy (including math) is the most interesting way to spend the days left on this earth.
>>75644926
Theres other alternatives.
How about national capitalism? Free market for all national businesses paying fair loans to citizens, heavy regulation and taxes on foreign businesses using third world labor and underpaying their local staff.
>>75638925
Stage 2 here.
Daily reminder America is an aristocratic republic. And coincidentally #1.
It obviously isn't working to /pol/'s liking.
>>75644957
>how your traditionalist economy works.
There is no such thing as that. Each society develops a different economic policy. I am not trying to create a universal system of values as you do. Every society is different.
Daily Reminder:
The supressive forces that subvert society fear fascism most. It will always be the one they try to steer you from. It takes a weak mind to fall for the kinds of tricks they use on /pol/
>>75644016
>>75645114
Oh and I guess to add, I think creating jobs is a worthwhile effort, if you are looking for another goal in life. It betters all of society if the jobs are honest and give living wage.
>>75645155
So basically your traditionalism is nothing but a label.
In fact you could slap it on anything. Create a traditionalist party and run for office, then don't change anything, BAM instant traditionalism.
What a load of shit.
>>75645137
>Free market for all national businesses paying fair loans to citizens, heavy regulation and taxes on foreign businesses using third world labor and underpaying their local staff.
So USSR tier "communism". Worked out well for them.
>>75645137
Interesting but hard to implement. The global trade nowadays is much to complex to allow for such a construct. A simple product like a pen or shoes or some piece of meat can involve tens of companies from different countries. Also keep in mind natural resources are not evenly distributed.
>>75644856
>My edit made you pretty mad.
No. You spend way too much time on here sweetie
>>75645314
oy vey the goym know, we must shut it down.
>>75638925
Stage 3 atm.
Tendencies towards 4.
>>75645166
You misunderstand the pic. It's not about a set of values but where these values lead you. We probably agree on 90% of things but when you come with your everybody is equal and should have equal rights in terms of politics we disagree (and you are wrong)
>>75645235
>So basically your traditionalism is nothing but a label.
No. Traditionalism is based about preserving tradition as it is the main cohesive force of society. When tradition is eliminated,societies crumble,and civil war and tyranny errupts. You are missing the entire point again. Do you believe that Singapure's model could be universal? Because it is certainly efficient,but I am sure as hell that it wouldnt work in most places. When you dismiss culture or tradition in political discussion you are just fooling around,and talking about mere rhetoric.
>Le ebin Classical Liberalism =/= Traditionalist meme
So what was the society of the United States in 18th and early 19th century ? Did the founding fathers, which overall contain the classic liberal ideas, operate in the name of degeneracy ?
>>75643779
>Abuses of power can be put down on check through force,as has happened before. Traditionalism is not against that.
Technology is though.
Nerve staples? Surveillance so pervasive the monarch's ministers know what kind of bacteria is in your breath on any given day of the week, robotic police that can relentlessly chase down and kill and be produced in such large numbers that "criminals" couldn't hope to match them, disarmament of the population so they have no chance of self defense, targeted bioweapons and nerve agents to kill specific individuals or communities.
A neo-monarch in the near future would be capable of enslaving his subjects for eternity - and what self respecting prince wouldn't secure his position of authority for eternity?
>>75638925
> figure out how to set my location anywhere in tinder
> meet qt3.14s in shitholes and small towns throughout world
> slowly red pill them, which is much easier when they have not been coddled like western females
> tell them truth is on pol and this Mongolian horse trading board backed by cia
> ...
> get comfy
Am do good?
>>75645523
You have no economic model in mind, all you are crying about is not enough people cosplaying as medieval spaniards and new buildings having too many windows.
What the fuck would your traditionalism even do? Subsidize restaurants offering boiled sheep heads instead of hamburgers? What a joke.
>>75645533
Yes.
>>75645284
I know, its not about throwing every foreign company out, for example a business that produces atleast a part of its product here and therefore creates jobs that are, and this is important, paying atleast average in their respective field should be welcomed and encouraged. The goal of my idea is to keep foreign loan and price dumping businesses with huge turnover rates out that make paying humane employee wagues to other businesses in the same field impossible with their dog eat dog mentality.
>>75645235
thats just wrong man, USSR disowned their own citizens, planned every little thing in agriculture and production and outright banned every foreign import that wasn't critical to the states survival. This has nothing to do with a free national market and regulated but not banned international trade.
>>75645597
kek, I should do this
>>75641093
STEALTH RARE
>>75644016
I know what you mean, anon.
I sometimes have the impression of getting schizophrenic. Pretending to be "normal" at a SJW university, at the same time trying to challenge them without becoming labelled a nazi, and voting for AFD without telling anyone.
>>75645758
Yes. Do join! It is good times. Based qts all over the world.
Plan is to use them as a viral vector of based and kek
>>75638925
been 2 for a while now
I want to progress to 4 eventually but I'm both busy with uni and too lazy to seek out the resources necessary
>>75645681
>You have no economic model in mind, all you are crying about is not enough people cosplaying as medieval spaniards and new buildings having too many windows.
>What the fuck would your traditionalism even do? Subsidize restaurants offering boiled sheep heads instead of hamburgers? What a joke.
You are dense. The economic model varies on multiple things. Technology is one of them. The economic model of the paleolithic wouldnt work in ancient Rome,you know why? Because architecture,engineering,agriculture and ganadery were developed. The same applies to the middle ages and the current year. An agricultural based system couldnt,and wouldnt work in Europe nowadays. That is why economy changes through time,and capitalism may become obsolete in the next century. Traditionalism is not about reversing the technological advancements, is about preserving tradition,as it is the main cohesive force in nature.
>>75645952
A load of diarrhea in textual form, and not a single idea in it.
How would it work? All you are saying is how it would NOT work.
Just go ahead and admit you have no idea what you are talking about.
>>75644856
robotic life represents and end to the sort of living that your josef de maistre fellow is talking about.
Robots don't need to kill to feed themselves or simply survive, and they're made from the inanimate.
His death of deaths could happen with the extinction of humanity and the rise of the machines.
>>75645704
Leafing around, as I see. Huh ?
Traditionalism is dangerous due to the fact that a leader or any head of the state HAS to be gifted in terms of intellect and moral impact
A monarchal dynasty can destroy everything, you need sophisticated people that represent non-degeneracy and consistenly shows the folk why traditionalistic views direct to improvement
>>75645580
>Nerve staples? Surveillance so pervasive the monarch's ministers know what kind of bacteria is in your breath on any given day of the week, robotic police that can relentlessly chase down and kill and be produced in such large numbers that "criminals" couldn't hope to match them, disarmament of the population so they have no chance of self defense, targeted bioweapons and nerve agents to kill specific individuals or communities.
>A neo-monarch in the near future would be capable of enslaving his subjects for eternity - and what self respecting prince wouldn't secure his position of authority for eternity?
Who is talking about absolute monarchies here? And what you are describing is what happened to society after the french revolution,where taxes were centralized,power was centralized and culture and law were centralized. Before the French revolution, cities,universities or the church had authority and served as a balance of power in society internally,while creating a cohesive society based on agreements perpetuated in time
Swap stage 4 with stage 3 and it's correct.
https://youtu.be/IDvWyBOTVNc
>>75646025
Kek. You just dont want to get it. I just told you that capitalism could fit in a traditionalist society. You have just built your crappy standards that defend a universal model,which has been proven to not work.
Stage 5 is being Zen
Bless me kek for I have sinned. I've been a total degenerate in my youth, fornicating outside my race, recklessly taking mind altering substances and being disrespectful to my betters. How can i ever be pardoned?
Being stage 4 is literally willing to be a peasant
But I guess you think you will be aristocracy or bourgeoisie
>>75646253
Nearly a dozen posts in you still haven't explained what exactly it is that you are shilling. You are only promoting a word, not an idea.
>>75638925
Topkek, hard traditionalism is defeatist as fuck. I enjoy many things of it, but to suggest that race or cultural tradition is outside of the matter brings you back to libertarianism in a disguise for retards.
>>75646343
Well, what do peasants do in a modern society where automation has replaced all the low skill labor and much of the high skill labor?
I honestly don't think the term would even be applicable anymore.
>>75646302
By voting out like a good lad
>>75639783
Ancaps are libertardians. You're a dumbass basically.
>>75638925
Stage 5, traditionalism is just a temporarily state. In the end you need to rely purely on your self and your ability to get shelter and obtain resources.
>>75646058
>a leader or any head of the state HAS to be gifted in terms of intellect and moral impact
Which is why they are groomed from birth and have the weight of the dynasty on their shoulders. If a person is truely of lordly caliber they will ascend to power regardless. Of course it has monarchs of varying quality, but has aristocrats, constitutions and the church to keep them in check.
>shows the folk why traditionalistic views direct to improvement
You don't have to convince the plebs of anything, they don't get a say and they would be too busy to care. We aren't looking to "improve" anyway, but to remain consistent.
It's primarily the churches job to defend against degeneracy.
Been here for a while now
Basically all of my political views are articulated through one way or another, one of the founding fathers or esoteric influences of the founding fathers.
>>75646500
in "traditionalist" state automation would lead to ruling class leaving rest of society to starve
of course you can pretend that you will take care of yourself like this one >>75646689
>>75640836
rare
>>75646691
>You don't have to convince the plebs of anything, they don't get a say and they would be too busy to care.
lmao
you are the plebs
>>75646967
just as well.
>>75646887
Playing nice wont be an option, so best would be to eventually create a faction to raid and plunder with people in similar situations.
>>75638925
From liberalism garbage I went straight to traditionalism
I sympathised with NatSocialism for a while but something was lacking
>>75646419
Told you that there is not a better universal economic system. Probably for Europe the best available system would be a mixed of corporativism and free market elements,but the same system would totally fail in most African countries.
A political system is not about economy which is a point that you are also missing entirely.
>>75640202
Kill yourself
>>75647107
Your "political system" isn't about anything, since you haven't even defined it yet.
You have no clue and are parroting something you thought sounded cool.
>>75640906
ask the jews about that kek
>>75638925
Stsge 3 here
>>75647095
well you can go to africa and do it right now, why are you waiting?
>>75640202
woah now you didn't finish the rest of your comment.
stage 5 is generic conservative
stage 6 traditionalism
stage 7 national socialism and fascism
>>75638925
your graph is pure retard
>>75647266
But there is many good stuff to enjoy in the West at the moment, no one would give that up.
>>75647183
Because there is not an universal form of traditionalism retard. I could go into details in specific cases like my country,but unlike your bullcrap made up ideologies,I dont expect them to work in other places.
>>75647330
>graph
>>75647365
you can't have a cookie and keep the cookie
everything you have in the west is thanks to people uniting and building nation together, not forming small fractions and killing each other
>>75647308
>stage 7 national socialism and fascism
You'll never see traditionalist skinheads.
>>75647515
>you can't have a cookie and keep the cookie
eat the cookie I meant
>>75647515
But people uniting is only sustainable as long as there is fossil fuel, after that countries will be unsustainable and will dissolve in small plundering factions. In the current state of poor people they have no change in the job market and have to live in constant poverty without a chance to escape it, for them it would also be a better option to just raid people.
>>75646887
>If society oriented itself towards traditional principles, automation would lead to the ruling class going against those principles
Something suggest to me you have no legitimate concept of nobility, being jaded by the fact that nobody cares to read about the good nobles in history, and also fail to understand the principles of traditionalist society, mistaking them for modern materialist principles (muh individualism; I'm not responsible for my community). There is a duty not to let one's people starve which is part of maintaining one's identity as a people and you maintaining your relation to that life which is more than life.
>>75647519
Yet to see a single explanation as to why someone who is committed to the survival and preservation of our race would ever be a " traditionalist " over a national socialist.
>>75646691
My friend, you seem to lack understanding or some kind of objective intepretation
Intellect and moral are both highly related to genetical inheritance, no amount of aristrocratic education or schooling can bring you a blueprint to perfect rulership, this shows oneself as absolutely impossible
Look at Wilhem II, he had the most qualified prepertion since the days of his childhood
Still, he managed to destroy 250 years of Prussian heritage, all based of his naive and unintelligent political decisions
He wasn't meant to rule, but the hereditary monarchy gave him this privilege
This is false in every possible way and this is why classical traditionalism loses
>>75647442
>i can define it, but i dont wanna
a full fucking hour of this shit
please clean your head and read your own posts
put yourself in the position of a third party reading them
you seem pathetic and its plain to see
I'm at stage 6: Market Feudalism.
Fact: Feudalism was abolished in Europe to allow for the expansion of government beyond the constraint of mere land rents. Land tenure was replaced with excises & direct taxes so that the government could take a slice out of secondary and tertiary production. We have to go back to our roots. Come home, white man.
>>75638925
Started at stage 2 and went directly to stage 4. Stage 1 and 3 are about as shitty as your typical leftist shitspew.
R-r-rate me sempais
>>75647737
>as long as there is fossil fuel
or you know, we can start developing renewable energy for real
it can replace fossil fuel almost everywhere
>>75647763
you realise life ain't a fairy tale and most of the time people in power want to keep that power, no matter the cost?
>good nobles
yeah, there might have been some, but through most of the history it was just bunch of people fighting for influence, using rest of society as cannon fodder
there's a reason why real monarchies still exist only in some 3rd world countries
>>75648034
>>75646170
Those feels.
>>75638925
Stage 3.5 hear. Currently in the reading esoteric materials part
>>75648616
Got some recommendations?
