Communism means I don't have to work, right?
>>75181039
Yes.
>>75181039
I'll nibble. No it means you work for penny's on the dollar but get free shitty shit. Free health care does not mean good health care.
>>75181039
It's a bourgeois capitalist money making scam.
>>75181039
No, it means you get to work, and not be paid. You get "free" shit while supplies last, and if you are willing to stand in line for hours in the hopes of getting your rations.
>>75181039
You pretend to work and they pretend to pay you.
>>75181039
Well in the old Communist system you were forced to work, otherwise you would prob be sent to a gulag/killed.
>>75181039
No work = bullet to your head or salt mine
>>75181039
GULAGS
ULAGS
LAGS
AGS
GS
S
>>75181039
If you are fortunate enough to belong to the Communist Party, yes.
>>75181383
>>75181397
Nice meme
>>75181039
I'm pretty sure in all Communist nations NEETs are forced to work.
>>75181039
>Capitalism: You work or you die, there's an elite ruling class
>Communism: You work or you die, there's an elite ruling class
>>75182024
This. It's still the law in countries like Belarus and North Korea. No welfare and no neets in actual commie countries.
>>75181383
DELETE THIS
In capitalism man exploits man.
In communism it's the other way around
>>75181039
In a communist society, if you don't work you don't deserve to use the communal goods.
Welfare is a capitalist invention.
>>75181383
venezuela is capitalist
>>75182280
Because it wasn't communism, you fucking retard. Learn your definitions
>>75184098
OMFG THIS FAGGOT AGAIN.
>>75181039
>>75181150
Actually it is the opposite, you HAVE TO work.
I'm not talking about the corruption-nepotism-favoritism but as things stands, everyone must work.
You can't live off inheritence, you can't sit on your ass and just mooch welfare, you can't become a NEET. They will force you to work, Neets are thrown into gulags.
Not saying commies don't have corruption nepotism. But it is Capitalism that enables and normalizes people who never work.
I thank tengri for it, I can just live off my rent bux like a neet, outsourcing the property management to some company.
>>75184055
Well, fuck communism then. Is there a system where I get everything for free and don't have to work?
>>75181039
Nah, you'll be forced to work some shitty job that the economy or society has absolutely no use for, your wage will be pathetically low but it doesn't really matter since you couldn't spend it on anything anyway.
The only use you get out of your workplace is that you steal stuff that you can hopefully barter for useful things like food, tools, working clothes or gasoline that other people stole from their workplaces.
Since you're a socially inept awkward fuck, the secret service will soon take notice of you and they'll recruit you with a combination of blackmail, intimidation and petty favors. Many people will suspect that you're ratting on them so you'll be even more isolated than you were before and the few people that can't help being around you will treat you like shit.
>>75184872
Capitalism. In a few years, maybe 2 decades, capitalism will force us to enact UBI. So wait until.
>>75184872
see my post above,
if you own capital in a capitalist society you can live with work. though shit if you are a wagecuck tho.
>>75181039
You don't HAVE to work today in most real first world countries, why do you work if you can live off NEETbuxs?
Work becomes a pleasure, if you're not mentally crippled, after all mundane tasks become automated
>>75181039
no, communism means there is ALWAYS work
>>75185515
source?
>>75185684
>source?
being part of soviet union for almost 50 years, there were no NEETs and everyone worked, stupid american kids dont know shit about communism
>>75186053
USSR wasn't communism. Communism by definition is a stateless, moneyless society. USSR was state capitalism, or state socialism.
And by my experience, people who actually lived under the USSR almost always miss the regime.
>>75186435
>>75186435
t. alberto commiebosa
>>75186435
>USSR wasn't communism. Communism by definition is a stateless, moneyless society. USSR was state capitalism, or state socialism.
Just fuck off already. I can't even tell if you're real or just a parody of every dumb hippie ever.
just get a job you enjoy, then working is fun.
by the time sunday rolls around I'm eager to get back to the office.
>>75186553
>pic related
>>75186565
>muh feels teel me what is communism and what isn't
Here you go jolly little friend
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
>>75181039
Yep. It also means the nation will make stuff and give it to you for free!
>>75181039
>implying Communism has unemployed people when country provides jobs
Socialism would give you almost any job you applied for, while Communism would theoretically give you any job. In Capitalism of course rich people and bosses decide who they hire or place as next boss. Unemployment wasn't a problem during Socialism, you could even be part of Socialistic actions to clean up environment or help dig stuff. Everything you needed to learn you would be taught at workplace, there was no such thing as educational pre-requirements for job.
>>75186899
source?
>>75181039
No, that's socialism.
>>75186993
The source of my wisdom was my dubs, had you checked em you would have known.
>>75181039
it means you have to "do your part", in other words work hard for a low standard of life while those who played the inherently flawed system (the political and industrial elite) get to sit around and drink wine and eat fine cuisine, as always. the opportunities for social mobility are completely negligible, and in order for the system to work in any way punishments are severe for even the slightest transgressions. this is how every implementation of communism has worked so far, so it seems to be par for the course.
no, you could not be NEET as your family would be unable to support you and the state would not. you would starve to death.
>>75184029
This.
The only reasonable alternative is Social Democracy.
>>75186993
>asking for source on a joke
just what fucking subreddit are you from?
>>75181039
Well, at the moment a communist society isn't feasible.
Under socialism you would work, but the working week would be vastly reduced. I think 25 hours with full employment and automation could be accomplished tomorrow, but capitalism won't allow it.
Eventually, under communism, the goal is to work towards the abolition of work and labour, so you can develop yourself however you see fit.
>>75181039
>Be me
>Be wage slave
>Not even mad at NEETS
>They're making dank memes for me to laugh at when I get off work
It's a nice trade off really.
>>75186435
>USSR wasn't communism. Communism by definition is a stateless, moneyless society. USSR was state capitalism, or state socialism.
doesnt matter, its the closest we got to communism and going further isnt possible
>moneyless
>stateless
literally fairytales
>And by my experience, people who actually lived under the USSR almost always miss the regime.
they miss the glory not the regime, if u think u work now in the slave capitalistic system wait till communism will arrive, ull work 6 days a week
>>75181039
Nope, you'll have to work, it will be a law. If you don't work, you're either à membre of the party and you'll be fine, or you're not a member and you'll end up in a labour camp
>>75187193
So that means so long as Im in the know, I can be a card carrying party member and enjoy these benefits?
Welp, guys im a#hillshill now
>>75187009
explain.
>>75187193
>industrial elite
>socialism
There is no such thing in a socialist society.
>>75187245
Well, if we took out the right to vote from the long term unemployed, retired, then yes, i could back that out
>>75187313
I actually never been to reddit other then the links here and when i google something and reddit appears. I don't like the upvote system. And i never understood the clinical paranoia you guys have with Reddit. No, i'm not raiding your safe space ffs
>>75184098
>venezuela is capitalist
And the sky is beneath the earth's crust.
>>75187193
>job mobility is a good thing
Since when?
You are complicating shit, i'll explain to you like to a baby:
Capitalism: people with money decide who gets promotion and jobs.
Communism: everybody gets a job and promoted based on work he has actually done.
There is no bank secrecy in Socialism, so really you can't hide money or steal money without everybody knowing it.
>>75187434
>doesnt matter, its the closest we got to communism and going further isnt possible
The Paris Commune and Catalonia in the Spanish War were much closer.
You people forget that early attempts at capitalism in the 16th century failed miserably before feudalism collapsed under its own contradictions. Capitalism will go the same way. The endless crashes and stagnant economies are evidence enough.
Who here ready for democratic socialism?
>>75187593
>There is no such thing in a socialist society.
Here we go again. You don't get tired getting btfo do you?
>>75187697
yeah if u think its bad now with capitalism, wait till communism will arrive, it will be worse
>>75187911
Social democrat is a political opinion, not even a political party, not to mention a system called Socialism.
Only weak fucks support communism
>>75187434
>doesnt matter, its the closest we got to communism and going further isnt possible
Debatable. Israeli kibbutz is a much better example.
>literally fairytales
ok, i may aggree, but we can both aggre that USSR wasn't communist.
>they miss the glory not the regime,
Didn't the living standards drop after the break up? Don't some of the old republics only catching up now , 20 years later, with their pre break up economic numbers?
>if u think u work now in the slave capitalistic system wait till communism will arrive, ull work 6 days a week
Source?
>>75187493
>member of the party
>communist society
Communism is a stateless society
>>75187597
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism
Name me one of this that Venezuela does not fullfill
>>75188103
What do the stronk fucks go for?
>>75188103
Then why do you suck king's cock and getting fucked by niggers and Muslims?
>>75188172
Laissez-faire of course you fuck face
>>75186973
>>75186435
Boy you two sure live in a funny world
>>75187969
In a socialist society workers own the means of production. It's not some obscure point Marx makes, it's the fucking central tenet in wich Marx describes it's ideal society
>>75188018
Because?
>>75188210
Not an argument
>>75188103
>weak people support changing the status quo
>>75188273
>memes
There's something inherently wrong with you as a human being if you don't want to work, I'm certainly glad you won't be propagating your retard genes.
>>75181039
No.
You'll be forced to walk by an authoritarian dictator so people can insist that the broken system of government works.
Millions of people will die to be made an example of and force you to work without literally whipping you.
On top of that anyone who doesn't meet the required standard level of output is put in a prison that would make you prefer death, yet if you do reach the almost impossible levels of output targeted by your government - your reward will be not being killed.
Enjoy.
>>75188128
>Didn't the living standards drop after the break up? Don't some of the old republics only catching up now , 20 years later, with their pre break up economic numbers?
>This will be the 7th time just myself has shown you this easily looked up information
>>75188430
>waa waa I'm a virgin living in mom's basement
>okay I'm a filthy commie now maybe something changes without me doing anything
>>75182223
Not an argument.
>>75188273
Oh boy, we sure live in this fine Americanized world where hamburger with cheapest and most shitty ingredients is the top brand of the world and beer where Irish pee into is considered golden standard and the best drink in the world, just to be topped by deep fried butter fish and chips. Wonderful is this degenerate music you produce, so much Christian spirit and gay in one combination. I could almost fuck your wife with elephant and horse, but i have to wait few more capitalistic years to be legal. Praise Jesus while priests molest kids and rape half of Vietnam and Africa to secure the race. Logic, nah, that's illogical in Christian capitalism, what matters is sucking those salty balls of bosses to gather enough money so you can buy a giant black dildo for your anus while Jamal from around the ghetto block isn't doing it. Ghettos? How did that happen? Because American cops are much better at doing a job than during Socialism when we had 0.3 crime rate. Capitalism high-end logic: Jesus is all we need, after all Jews need our money.
>>75188637
Romania/GDP per capita
9,499.21 USD (2013)
Hungary/GDP per capita
13,480.91 USD (2013)
Poland/GDP per capita
13,647.96 USD (2013)
Bulgaria/GDP per capita
7,498.83 USD (2013)
>>75187545
until someone decides they don't like you and exploits the system to discredit you (likely resulting in a severe punishment) for something you didn't do, but is believable. don't forget this can happen at any time and for no particularly good reason.
>>75187593
>There is no such thing in a socialist society.
haha holy fucking shit
you do realise factories can't be run by a cooperative of all the workers, right? even then there will be an elite among these workers, some will be delegated more important tasks than others, and some will be mentally or physically unable to do some tasks - and there you have it, there is a power structure present and it is no longer pure socialism, not everyone is equal. giving people roles that suits their abilities leads to an unequal society, as no matter what political system you choose you cannot change human nature with any amount of subversion.
>>75187644
see above, the method of giving people tasks based on their ability will always lead to inequality, then you end up with a class system, again.
>>75188128
>Didn't the living standards drop after the break up?
what standards? long lines for bread? empty stores? waiting years for an apartment or car? corruption not only in high but also local level, for instance to get a little bit extra food u needed to know a guy who knows a guy, in capitalistic country u need to know a guy who knows a guy for weed or some shit
>Source?
if u didnt know about the 6 day work/studying week u dont know shit about USSR/communism, at one point they even got rid or wanted to get rid of Sundays so they can work without free days
i like how its always the westerners that support communism, i hope u get it someday
>>75188506
>There's something inherently wrong with you as a human being if you don't want to work
You unironically enjoy working? Are you masoquist or you simply don't have anything else better to do with your life?
>>75188637
source for it. And i was talking about pre break up ('91) levels with today levels. Not pre revolution compared to the end of the eastern block
Why do americans need to make an ass for themselves?
>>75188915
Forgot
Czech Republic/GDP per capita
19,844.76 USD (2013)
>>75188128
Seriously you're a colossal monumental faggot for even thinking such an ignorant easily disproven idea.
Even after it being directly shown to you god knows how many times and everyone on here should filter you just on this one principle alone
>>75188928
Class system is when you allow salaries of some people to be much higher for same job, it's also called fraud, but that would hurt billionaire's feelings.
>>75181039
Not technically but you can pretend you work and government will pretend they're paying you.
>>75181039
It means that failure to work gets you sent to a forced labor camp. Enjoy.
>>75184737
until you kill off half the population because they didn't work hard enough. either that or you give up because no one wants to work again
>>75181039
It means you have a job but you don't have to be productive. And because of this it also means you will be poor because no one has incentive to produce and generate wealth.
>>75189089
>Source
>Literally Google gdp of x nation
You're a lazy lying nigger and we both know this
>>75188331
and that's why marx was a delusional fucking hack, he didn't even realise, or rather chose to ignore that the workers cannot effectively control the means of production as it is at best incredibly inefficient, and at worst won't work at all. not everybody deserves an equal say, and yet understanding and accepting this undermines the basic tenet of socialism and communism.
true socialism is a monumental step backwards whatever angle you look at it from. ironically, progressives are the ones who wish to return us all to the stone age, technological progress would cease in a socialist society as nothing would ever get done.
>>75184189
BUT THIS TIME, THIS TIME WE WILL MAKE IT WORK
>>75181039
"We pretend to work, they pretend to pay us"
>>75188928
>you do realise factories can't be run by a cooperative of all the workers, right?
That is up to you to think. I also don't really understand how it would work out, because i haven't read any socialist works.
> even then there will be an elite among these workers
Sure, and the workers would have to decide if those deserve a higher share, or if not. But it would be the workers to decide.
>and there you have it, there is a power structure present and it is no longer pure socialism
everyone is absolutely equal != socialism. You think Marx didn't think about that?
>>75181039
It means that you work until you die and it doesn't mean anything.
>>75189184
>government owns industry, government gives you a job
Somehow in little retard Christian head that means government doesn't knows what you doing, while billionaires that nobody monitors are all honest workers. Gotta love the amusing retardness of Christian retards.
BRING COMMUNISM BACK AGAIN
>>75189316
>true socialism is a monumental step backwards whatever angle you look at it from.
Not to mention literally impossible
>Socialist have been utterly impotent in answering this problem since the early 1920s and the arguments made have been vindicated with every real world example of socialism being implemented
https://mises.org/library/end-socialism-and-calculation-debate-revisited
>>75189330
Communism can't work but authoritharian socialism works. At least for some time.
>>75189003
You are latvian, so your opinion on USSR will be bad purely by nationalistic reasons, and i can absolutely understand that.
>USSR/communism
The again i have to remind you that USSR wan't socialism/communism.
>i like how its always the westerners that support communism
I don't. And don't patronize me. You most likely didn't lived in USSR, since you are underage most likely.
>>75189089
I like to put effort towards goals and shape reality through my efforts and feel like I have a purpose, yes. Let's not pretend that NEETs are fucking enlightened and that everyone who works makes french fries, come on m8. The feeling of accomplishment at a job well done is better than a life of passively consuming media and shitting out irrelevant posts on a Vietnamese cutlery forum.
>>75189143
How is paying someone more than someone else for the same job fraud? it's your choice what to do with your money
>>75181039
oh no, you silly. It means you HAVE to work.
Not being productive makes you a parasite and therefore criminal scum
>>75189544
>have democracy and free market
>be prosperous
>have enough of everything
>TIME FOR SOCIALISM
>it goes great for some time because you have all that money and shit from times you were not commie
>suddently no more shits left
literally everytime
>>75189184
based ww2 bro?
>>75189316
>or rather chose to ignore that the workers cannot effectively control the means of production
they already do, you fucking retard. management are workers too.
>>75189330
Not this time. Since it only happened a handfull of times.
>>75189831
Paying somebody more or charging somebody more for same thing is the definition of fraud, you are just too deep into propaganda that they convinced you otherwise.
>>75189502
>shilling this hard
>that means government doesn't knows what you doing
>implying that they have cameras installed at every possible shop so that no one can pretend to work
are you retarded?
>while bilionaire yada yada
He never implied or even talked about it faggot
>>75181039
Yea, but everyone will be poor, including you.
>>75189941
Even with "Scandinavian Socialism" this is exactly what happens
http://www.iea.org.uk/publications/research/scandinavian-unexceptionalism-culture-markets-and-the-failure-of-third-way-soc
>>75182280
This, but you won't be liked for saying this because it tears people away from their little neat red vs blue fight.
>>75189502
damn you convinced me, I'm #redteam now
>>75189941
well yeah but it works as in it's a viable system for some time
communism isn't
>>75184189
>My specific narrow brand of communism has never been tried
K
>>75189774
>I like to put effort towards goals and shape reality through my efforts and feel like I have a purpose, yes.
Ok, you like to have goals. But do you need to have a job for it?
>Let's not pretend that NEETs are fucking enlightened
I'm not
>The feeling of accomplishment at a job well done
Not the best as reading a good book. Taking a hiking. Talking with friends.
I will work, and my uni course choice was choosen solely because of employemnet, ut let's no kid ourselves with this. We work because we must. Only a tiny amount of people actually enjoy what they do
>>75181039
No you're confusing communism with socialism
>>75190033
>Not this time. Since it only happened a handfull of times
It has failed ever since Jamestown and John Smith for the same exact reasons faggoy
>>75190033
sup bro
>>75190322
his point is communism is the predicted stateless society
it never existed
what existed was socialist regimes trying to build communism
>>75189143
a class system is where you have different classes of society, as the name suggests
let me use a hypothetical example
a co-operative of workers """"""owns""""" a factory
there will be workers who manufacture the goods, there will be supervisors to ensure everything gets done correctly, there will be HR and other admin to ensure the finances, payment etc. is in order. there will also be management to ensure all of these departments work together. this is in simple terms how a factory is run, and the ideological system in use will not change this because that would be stupid.
now, since pinkos believe that everyone does the job that they are best suited to, this immediately gives rise to a major issue.
who are the workers?
who are the supervisors and admin staff?
who are the management?
changing the ideological system does not change the fact that people are not mentally and physically equal. some people are simply too fucking stupid to manage a factory, others are going to be far better at manual labour than others. so, clearly some people will have no choice to be labourers. others will end up being managers as they are best suited to it. changing the roles around on a regular basis does not solve this issue, it will not make the dumb any smarter, and it will not make the crippled any more mobile.
now, does the manager have the same amount of power and influence as a labourer? no, because for the factory to work, the manager/supervisor tells the labourer what to do. they are in a position of power over the labourer.
and there you have it, there is a heirarchy within the factory. the management is at the top, then the supervisors and admin, then the workers at the bottom. whatever mental gymnastics you engage in, these three groups will never be truly equal, the top will always have power over the bottom.
>>75189727
>he thinks russians liked the USSR
like i said they miss the glory, not the regime, theres was nothing good of it
>USSR wan't socialism/communism
may i also remind u thats the closest we got to communism and ur literally going after fairytales
>You most likely didn't lived in USSR
nigger 98% of my family lived under USSR/communism and nobody misses USSR, not even jokingly or being drunk will they say, damn those were the good times, never, its like u dont believe that people who get shot feel pain until finally u will be shot to finally understand what it feels like
>>75190377
>Not the best as reading a good book. Taking a hiking. Talking with friends.
For you
This idea that there are people different than you with different values and it being utterly lost and in comprehensible to you just shows what a faggot you are
>>75189539
>A free market biased think thank says socialism is impossible
Golly gee
>>75190322
It objectively never existed
>>75190068
>implying you know shit about Socialism
We had a central monitoring financial institutions that seen every cent that was transmitted from point A to B. There was no plastic money or digital money or gambling. You seem to not know the meaning of privatization in financial sector, that simply by definition means that if i own a bank and i own people in related other financial companies i pretty much are immune and that's exactly what's happening in Switzerland, why they steal from world and deposit in Switzerland, Monaco, Jersey and so on, since they aren't in EU and aren't under inspection, we don't even know how much money they have, so they can play with gold reserves, money reserves, oil reserves and once pretend they are so and once so, then we have financial crisis.
>>75190557
You aren't the same in that lolbertarian thread?
Also reading material on eastern front, on both sides point of view. Do you know any good one?
>>75190033
right, so upper management has the same influence in an organisation as the labourers on the factory floor? that's not how it works, pal. those two groups are not equal.
>>75188928
> you cannot change human nature with any amount of subversion.
>Brave New World
You're right though
>http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/281/1791/20141349
Model shows that unequal societies perform better than egalitarian societies
>>75190648
> theres was nothing good of it
No unemployment was nice. And i didn't say it was the best. But i think it was better then what they have today.
>nigger 98% of my family lived under USSR/communism and nobody misses USSR, not even jokingly or being drunk will they say, damn those were the good times, never, its like u dont believe that people who get shot feel pain until finally u will be shot to finally understand what it feels like
Are you latvian?
>>75190672
Americans are different then.
>>75190377
>Not the best as reading a good book. Taking a hiking. Talking with friends.
Obviously you have never accomplished anything tangible in your life. It is a better feeling than any of those things.
>>75190377
>We work because we must
You'd rather be in a communist society where you are told what work to do by the government and you get no input on the value of your labor.
>>75190697
>Golly gee
See back in the 1900s-1930s socialist scholars would have legitimate debate with thwor opposition.
Until they were utterly unable to address the arguments made by Mises.
Just because you don't like this doesn't make the argument any less valid and in this case unanswered by socialist because that can't
Because the argument has been entirely vindicated in every single example of socialism the entire world over.
>>75190909
Upper management no, becasue i guess it implies the corporation and multinacional.
>those two groups are not equal.
God made us all equal.
>>75190609
You are complicating simple things like politicians are complicating laws and making holes or backroutes, this way they can always find a reason to screw you over and get away with it. You don't seem to understand the historic significance of powerful families and their ties in it, they don't work, they just fuck around with people, they are privileged since birth and they don't feel like playing by rules the same as regular joe, especially not if country decides to not control them. This unicorn world where there is fairness by freedom doesn't exists.
>>75181039
No it means you have to work long hours for little pay doing a job you can't stand! Government is your GOD!
>>75191101
>Obviously you have never accomplished anything tangible in your life.
Like?
>You'd rather be in a communist society where you are told what work to do by the government and you get no input on the value of your labor.
You know nothing about communism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
Educate yourself bro
And i've rather not have to work of course.
>>75191069
>No unemployment was nice.
but ofc, u will have to work 6 days a week, every virgin NEET will be put to work, free shit aint free, and because a doctor and a janitor makes the same money, u dont feel motivated and work like shit, not like it matters how much u make, u wont have it anything to spend on, u will have more money than u can spend
>Are you latvian?
did u also know that latvia has 25% russian population and riga is 50% russian and my family has russian members in it and they all have the same opinion of USSR as latvians? u think im fucking joking with u?
>>75190042
>. A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain.
If you charge someone more than someone else, the first is allowed to go to a competitor
That'd be a tenet of a Free Market, the theory behind is eventually flawed, but this specific tenet allows for competition to exist, however I feel that it must be monitored by a gouvernment for it to work properly. But equal charge or pay is an too restricive rule that'd would diminish competitors.
>>75191069
>Americans are different then
Literally every single person on this planet is different retard
Also nice of you to entirely drop
>>75188915
>>75188637
>>75189124
Because it so utterly shows you wrong
Less than a quarter century away from socialism lead to more economic growth than 3/4ths of a century under it.
>B B but muh no true Scotsman
USSr filled every single tenant of the Marxist Communist manifesto.
Just because you dknt like the results doesn't make it not Socialist.
Nor because you deny that the ownership of the means of production were owned by workers through the proxy of the state isn't socialism won't change that it is.
Your faggot and your open and deliberate denial of evidence right infront of you shows you as a zealot delusional faggot
>>75191448
>they are privileged since birth and they don't feel like playing by rules the same as regular joe
The market is unpredictable and they regularly lose their money and social status.
>>75191448
>implying that the unicorn world where there is fairness by equality does exist.
>>75190852
nope that's another Montenigger
and I wouldn't call myself expert on Eastern Front, so I'll avoid recommending
Panzer Leader and Lost Victories are nice reads, but obviously they're biased as fuck in many ways
I also read Zhukov's memoir, but never finished it
rest I read was from many sources, not some comprehensive work, bits and pieces really
>>75191515
>You know nothing about communism
Even in "muh Catalonian socialism" they shot people who didn't work and that is touted as the best example of socialism.
Way back with James town which js by every definition"real" Communism the people started to starve to death because of a tragedy of the commons and lazy shits not working.
The idea is a failure and an impossibility
>>75181039
>Communism means I don't have to work, right?
The low intelligence of NEETs still baffles me, even though I shouldn't be surprised.
>>75190376
>>75191652
Competition is a word without meaning, just like conservatism. Those are smoke words like Jesus who sugar coat deception and fraud. Competition is needed so that billionaires have an excuse to bribe people and do stupid shit like elect winning show based on ratings when they in advance own all the television channels and newcomers can't even compete. Don't confuse man-made competition in system controlled by man with natural competition based on given nature laws. People aren't born relatively equal based on their environment. And since we are now in global human-made environment made by USA, we surely can't compete in ratings if we only have 2 million people and no ownership over television with people who have 300 million people and full ownership over television.
>>75191487
>No it means you have to work long hours for little pay doing a job you can't stand!
Unlike in our capitalist societies.
>>75191645
> u will have to work 6 days a week
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_reform_in_the_Soviet_Union,_1956%E2%80%9362#Successes
>The wage reform was linked to a program that reduced the length of the overall working week in the Soviet Union, and in 1958, the working week was reduced from 48 hours to 41.[18] This was to apply to all Soviet workers, and by 1961, 40 million Soviet workers (approximately two thirds of the workforce) were working a 41-hour week.[18] It was planned to decrease this further to 40 hours in 1962, but this was eventually not carried out.
Take it easy on the propaganda friend. Is the 6 days work week a watime measure?
> u dont feel motivated and work like shit
Unlike oiur current capitalist system
>did u also know that latvia has 25% russian population
Yes. That is why i asked if you are latvian.
>>75181039
7 years gulag.
>>75191806
>The market is unpredictable and they regularly lose their money and social status.
Just from 1993to 2008 over 75% of the top 1% were different people
Of course lefty hacks have forever failed or deliberately ignored that these abstract brackets are filled with real people who move around them throughout their lives.
It is the intellectual equivalent of someone telling you "a man gets hit by a car every 15mins in New York city" and responding with " "well he must get awfully tired of that"
>>75191515
>Like?
Literally anything. When you approach work with the right attitude, even menial tasks such as landscaping or construction become satisfying once you get good and have the skills to do a great job. Walking away from something difficult, having conquered it with your willpower is a righteous feeling. And getting paid for it makes it even better.
The more skills you have the better job you are able to do, and the more your time is worth.
>You know nothing about communism
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
>Educate yourself bro
I was a card carrying communist for years. I am older than you and more experienced. My politics changed as I matured and went out into the world, and I regret ever falling for it at all. It's an embarrassment.
>>75192317
>implying stateless societies or socialist societies will improve naturally at the same pace as capitalist societies if there's no competition allowed in socialist societies
kek
>>75191701
>Less than a quarter century away from socialism lead to more economic growth than 3/4ths of a century under it.
USSR and puppet states weren't socialist.
>USSr filled every single tenant of the Marxist Communist manifesto.
The manifesto were the communist party list of demands in the 1848 revolution. It's by no means what communism theoretically is or isn't.
God, americans are so incapable of looking themselves for things
> that the ownership of the means of production were owned by workers through the proxy of the state
Are you stupid or are you pretending? In what way did the workers owned the USSR state? teel me, pls.
>>75192451
>Unlike in our capitalist societies.
Capitalist societies the world over make significantly more than centrally planned economies.
Literally every single example.
There isnt even exceptions.
The more economically free a nation is its people make more and work less.
This is the rule and the reality you live in
>>75192774
There is no need for competition if you have fair play. You know that when you pay for something or work for something you going to get exactly that something. Capitalism and Ebay don't even guarantee delivery, like capitalists don't guarantee salary, since they are full of hot air like their whole financial system of constant collapse every 20 years and they live off people who go bankrupt. I wonder what will happen when they have full coverage over whole world, what can then go bankrupt to save them? Obviously a war to kill your ass and you will have a golden badge of idiot in front line while they slurp their tropical juices on remote island.
>>75192451
I hate you.
>>75191988
Got any other books to recommend about any other topic?
>>75192053
>they shot people who didn't work
It was wartime. They were absolutely desperate. Hitler sent 15 year old to fight the russians. Americans imprisioned the japs. French surrendered. Ottomans genocided. People do naty thing in wartime.
>>75192284
>>75192980
>USSR and puppet states weren't socialist.
I already explained to you why they were absolutely socialist.
Just because you dknt like their implementation of it doesn't make them not Socialist.
> God, americans are so incapable of looking themselves for things
>Said the nigger who has both refused to look at data directly refuting him.when provided and refusing to look it up himself
> Are you stupid or are you pretending? In what way did the workers owned the USSR state? teel me, pls.
Now you're understanding the reality of what socialism has always been about.
It is a religion made to get the ignorant to surrender litteraly everything in the name of some utopia that will not and cannot exist.
Also didn't you just post a link showing that the Soviet government was working for the workers by reducing their work times:^)
>>75193441
not reading anything now desu, final exams are next month
>>75192451
>Before the mid-1960s there was a 41 hour 6-day standard work week: 7 hours Monday through Friday and 6 hours on Saturday.
https://www.coursehero.com/file/p3q3b2t/Soviet-Union-In-the-Soviet-Union-the-standard-work-week-was-41-hours-8-hours-12/
>he thinks 40+ hours cant be made in 6 days, i guess u dont need to know math when everything is free in your mind
>are you latvian
>he thinks its cuz im latvian that i might not like USSR/communism, while i literally am surrounded by latvian, russian and other ethnicities that lived under USSR communism and nobody has nothing good to say about it
but, i guess the only reason to hate communism is cuz of prejudice or racism, right?
>>75192648
>When you approach work with the right attitude, even menial tasks such as landscaping or construction become satisfying once you get good and have the skills to do a great job.
this literally can apply to anything. you can do landscaping for fun. You can do construction work for fun. You can do agriculture work for fun. But 40 hour work weeks are done because we must (exception for some workaholics)
>I was a card carrying communist for years
>implying our communist parties have anything communist in them
What is communism then?
>>75193441
>It was wartime.
They started doing it immediately because people refused to work.
You're also avoiding James town which is by definition Communism and it failed dramatically for the reasons communism is destined to fail which Mises has forever BTFO of you faggots for 90 years
>>75188018
I seriously doubt any of us will be around to see communism. The productive forces unleashed by capitalism still haven't developed enough yet.
Perhaps once the third world has fully industrialised, then the time will be right.
>>75192562
It's sad that they fail to realize that the only system where their 1% Boogeyman would truly flourish forever is communism.
>>75193877
>But 40 hour work weeks are done because we must
As opposed to what?
>>75193995
>Boogeyman would truly flourish forever is communism.
Hey now
They won't flourish forever due to that little calculation problem.
>>75193082
And have significantly more crysis then we do. We are still recovering from a crysis that hapenned 8 years ago because some guys decided to tweak some numbers in some computer.
>The more economically free a nation is
Define economically free. Because the way i see, those charts can be made the other way around.
>>75193424
How is the impotent rage?
>>75187245
Nein.
>>75193554
What Americans don't understand is that opposition to liberal capitalism isn't necessarily economic.
I dislike liberal capitalism because it de facto means importing toxic American culture, poisoning your nation, and becoming American bitch.
It means being force-fed with your liberal bullshit and having your hands tied.
I could make economic arguments too, it's an awful system, but I gave you the most important ones.
It's really not about numbers and percentages. It's about social effects of your system and especially your culture which is product of that system.
>>75194017
This pic. It is really good.
German word for boredom is Langeweile.
Lange-weile
Long-while.
The reason for SJW
>>75181039
No, you just have to put minimal effort into it
>>75193554
>I already explained to you why they were absolutely socialist.
No you didn't
>Just because you dknt like their implementation of it doesn't make them not Socialist.
They weren't. They claimed to be a link betwenn capitalism to socialism, a kind of a preparator state for socialism. But of course they wrren't, and use their newfound power to do whatever they liked
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism
or
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_socialism
>It is a religion
lolololololol
>Also didn't you just post a link showing that the Soviet government was working for the workers by reducing their work times:^)
Also sending them to gulags, forbiding their free speech, low wages...
>>75194207
>And have significantly more crysis then we do.
It is a wonderful thing how Commie faggots cry about a few years of slowed growth as a crisis and make endless excuses for millions of needlessly starved to death people thanks to socialism.
BTW the 08 crash was entirely the fault of government intervention(which if you want to use definitions the actions taken are reflective of fascism lite) in the market which has been thoroughly explained in multiple books
The best of which are "The housing boom and bust" by Thomas Sowell
And
"Meltdown" by Thomas woods
>>75181039
>>75181039
No it means literally the exact opposite of that
>>75193687
Me too, but i am a dumb fuck and i'm not studiyng. good luck m8
>>75193770
>>he thinks 40+ hours cant be made in 6 days, i guess u dont need to know math when everything is free in your mind
So it's the same as capitalism, only the working days were shorter? Wow fuck the USSR
>are you latvian
>he thinks its cuz im latvian that i might not like USSR/communism
Of course. I would if i was latvian.
>i guess the only reason to hate communism is cuz of prejudice or racism,
Not talking about communism, but USSR. And you have plenty of reasons to hate USSR. But i think most russians were better under the USSR then today. And it's shared by many russians
>>75182145
For real though, communism didn't kill 100 million. The majority of those deaths were from famines that the state couldnt of fixed, especially as Russia was coming out of feudalism and was basically a third world country and china was actually a third world country.
>>75187434
Implying anarchist Spain didn't get closer to full communism. The idea that the state will wither away is bullshit, the only way for you to get a stateless, moneyless, socialist society is through the self organization of the working class. Not through the state being an intermediary.
>>75194841
>It is a wonderful thing how Commie faggots cry about a few years of slowed growth as a crisis and make endless excuses for millions of needlessly starved to death people thanks to socialism.
Russia and China had famines for centuries before 1917 and 1949. Funny how they only ended under those evil gommies.
>>75195164
The Holodomor was done on purpose.
>>75193900
>They started doing it immediately because people refused to work.
source?
>You're also avoiding James town
Because i don't know what jamestown is
Saw it now
>communist society
>industry didn't existed
Are you retarded or just stupid?
>>75194017
Literally anything, Are you so brainwashed to think you need 40 hour work days not to feel bored?
>>75184737
Amen to that fellow landowner. We are the true master race who hacked the system. We are like modern philosopher kings. I spit on the lowly NEETcucks and Wagie scum.
>>75194692
>No you didn't
Yes I did
You not liking an explanation doesn't make it not exist
> They weren't.
Yes they were
The means of production were socialized and they were socialist
>State capitalism
Is what butthurt socialist bitch about when their special snowflake religion fails.
> lolololololol
Let's see
>Prophet's regarded as all knowing(Marx Engels various other faggots
>Tombs regarded s absolute truth(das kapital)
>An idealistic"god"(equality)
>A utopian promise of salvation("true" Communism
>Dogmatic zealots who defend it with never ending delusion and repeating of ideals from their prophets and holy books(you)
Yup it is definitely a religion
> Also sending them to gulags, forbiding their free speech, low wages...
Those were just the lazy threats/leaches to the true workers at large that the government was protecting them from :^)
>>75194313
They will never understand that there is more to life then money. I absolutely don't give a fuck if we were capitalist or socialist. But the way i see, capitalism is flooding my country with niggers and shitskins and bloddy fucking gipsies. that only brings me agaisnt capitalism
>>75195122
>But i think most russians were better under the USSR then today
I disagree with that, knowing quite some Russians and having a Russian in my family.
Russia right now is experiencing a clumsy national revival. In time problems will fix itself.
Communist period had good points but overall it was a failure. Costs were too high, especially in cultural and social sense.
USSR wasn't really Russia. It had Russian elements as a matter of reflex, but it was a different beast.
>>75195731
The problem with the capitalism you've experienced is that it's not TRUE capitalism. True capitalism has never been tried.
>>75195449
>source
Again I'm not spoon feeding you shit that you're going to ignore like you've one several times this thread alone.
> Because i don't know what jamestown is
>Saw it now
A leftist faggot being ignorant pf history color me shocked.
>Industry didn't exist
> Are you retarded or just stupid?
The means of production were commonly owned and equally shared to everyone's needs.
It was a complete realization of Marxist ideals of Communism
And it failed
Because of reasons that are painfully obvious
> Literally anything
I was making fun of you as well as the comic.
>>75194841
>cry about a few years of slowed growth as a crisis
This only explains how sheltered you are. People killed themselves due to the crysis effect. People dreams were severely lashed off. people lost everything they had in that crysis.
>BTW the 08 crash was entirely the fault of government intervention
lol, capitalists dindu nuffin.
>by Thomas Sowell
>A libertarian arguing that free market dindu nuffin
ok
>>75189539
The socialist economic calculation is only a problem under marxist-leninist systems and the answers for it were figured out in the 50's. In all libertarian forms of socialism it isn't even an issue.
>>75190609
If you have supervisors or management, which aren't necessary if you have workplace democracy. They would be voted into place, socialism is the workers having control over the means of production.
>alberto is back with more ''no true communism'' shitposts
>>75195731
That's not capitalism, that's crony capitalism, which is perverted socialism.
Centralized control, elimination of the middle class, no borders, an elite vanguard controlling a heterogeneous mess of impotent lower class aliens. Socialism.
>>75196390
That's right. True capitalism is stateless. It's an economic philosophy. Any ounce of government intervention or regulation spoils it and it is no longer true capitalism.
>>75195122
>he thinks they worked
try laziness, working shitty, drinking on the job, and when ur done, u got nothing to spend money on. in communism, western standards dont work like u think they will, in communism u will see the TRUE NATURE of man, and that very nature wont get u to ur fairytale communism ever
>Of course. I would if i was latvian
haha ur dumb as shit, i told u its not about being latvian, ive met more people living in USSR latvian and non-latvian, who experienced it first hand, than u have read western liberal commie writers who can only fantasize to the idea of communism/USSR
>But i think most russians were better under the USSR then today.
>but i think
thats right, YOU THINK, it doesnt matter what u think, i see russians every day, when was the last time u saw a russian? they would laugh in ur face if u would tell them how great USSR was compared to modern russia, its still shit, but as u cry that after 8 years of economic crisis we havent gotten well yet.,, well after communism EVEN 25 YEARS ISNT ENOUGH, u dumb fucking retard will never understand it, its not i who should defend how communism was bad, its u who should be telling me why its good and u still havent proven it, if u wont listen to millions of people who tell u why communism is shit then ur blind
>>75196176
>workplace democracy
Wtf does this even mean? You faggots get together and have a vote on how much you work per day and who you can sell shit to and how profits are distributed?
>>75195426
Not it wasn't. It affected russian areas too.
>>75195605
>Yes I did
Link me to it, because i don't remember it
>The means of production were
owned by the state, wich Marx wrote that it still was capitalism, since the states exists to serve the interests of the elites, according to Marx. He called it state capitalism, or state socialism, and it's not socialism according to Marx.
The means of production need to be in workers hands. Not by proxy
I'm not communism/socialist. I just think it never gets the required open mind it needs to explore it
>Those were just the lazy threats/leaches to the true workers at large that the government was protecting them from :^)
Ok m8, you sure got me there
>>75195731
>They will never understand that there is more to life then money.
Precisely. That's why it's hard to talk with them, they're raised in an environment like that, America is more of a business than a nation. Everything there is superficial, from their religion, their art, their entire fucking culture.
Their God is money, and that's the only real thing, everything else is a facade. Of course I'm generalizing hard.
>>75195731
>But the way i see, capitalism is flooding my country with niggers and shitskins and bloddy fucking gipsies
>Government welfarism is causing shit tier people to come to my nation
>I will blame capitalism
Retard>>75196118
>This only explains how sheltered you are.
>Said the guy defending millions of dead at the hands of socialist regimes whole simultaneously saying they aren't socialism.
> lol, capitalists dindu nuffin
> by Thomas Sowell
>A libertarian arguing that free market dindu nuffin
Sowell was a die hard Marxist
Also truth spewed from a talking horse is truth none the less >>75196176
>In all libertarian forms of socialism it isn't even an issue.
It has been in the past and the few examples that exist are extremely small scale akin to Amish communes.
There is no possible way for any form of socialism to exist outside of around 100 individuals.
And even the examples of libertarian socialism that do exist are either extremely relatively poor or exist off the backs of things that exist thanks to capitalism
>>75196717
Marx said that the state will exist after the proletariats take over to manage the economy litteraly what the USSR did you faggot. There would be a vanguard who leads the revolution and they would take over and form a proletariat dictatorship.
Communism is a meme utopia that Marx didn't even write much about because it was entirely a theoretical end-goal. To get communism you need post-scarcity and highly advanced technology
>>75196666
Workplace democracy is where workers come together and have meetings to discuss the management of the workplace. So instead of having one person dictate what is to be done, the workers democratically decide it. Literally learn to google.
>>75195877
Maybe in the future it will be better. Bt compared to Putin Russia and post break up, what do you think?
>>75195924
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism
Name me one tenet that our societies don't have. I dare you.
>>75196053
>The means of production were commonly owned and equally shared to everyone's needs.
Communism is to be implemented in a industrialized society. It makes no sense otherwise.
Communal ownership of farmland was a very popular concept, and existed trought the whole world. Calling this a communist system is unfair, the same as calling niggers trading cows for sticks with stones capitalism
It makes no sense talking about communism/socialism in a non-industrialized society.
>>75197282
Why do you think you should have workplace democracy? I invested millions of dollars and countless hours into the business bought all the equipment, made all the deals and hired the personnel. Now that I hired the perosnnel these faggots all of a sudden decide that they want to have a vote on how my business is managed. Fuck off.
This is exactly why libertarianism is the only true philosophy. every other faggot in the world thinks that Bernie is the savior of their generation rather than a shitstain shill for Leninist agendas to market their filth commune work camps across north american dirtbag white trash trailer parks rather than effectively channeling the force of the free market and its capability to establish advanced markets in the predetermined sense of overt dynamics of free speech in a brighter future with a world filled with happy people enjoying higher quality of life, legendary protection of rights and their own manifest destiny as true americans
>>75196717
>Link me to it, because i don't remember it
Of course you don't
I kean it's only been 20mins
>>75197429
>Communism makes no sense
Fixed
>>75197429
Putin's Russia is probably best Russia Russians ever lived in.
It's not perfect of course but he's doing okay, relatively speaking.
>>75197429
>Name me one tenet that our societies don't have. I dare you.
I dare you to read thousands of books by capitalist since Adam Smith condemning hat we have now.
>>75196347
>facts are shitpost
literally tumblr tier
>>75196390
>that's crony capitalism
Wich is still capitalism, and a major critic of capitalism by Marx
>which is perverted socialism.
>muh feels say so
>Centralized control, elimination of the middle class, no borders, an elite vanguard controlling a heterogeneous mess of impotent lower class aliens
capitalism.
Socialism is the workers owning the means of production
>>75184872
Automation, bow down to your robot overlords.
>>75196638
Does taxation have a role in your pure capitalism? Do states even exist at all outside of corporations?
>>75197429
Free market, we don't have that. There are tariffs, taxes, subsidies and regulation.
No. It means you have to work 10 times as hard for very little benefit with an ineffective method. What, you think "the people" are going to lose their interest in iphones and bling if capitalism goes away?
>>75197788
You have to understand the main difference between Marxists and capitalists.
Capitalist writers like Sowell only focus on economy.
For example, they give totally logical arguments as to why free trade is good. It makes sense.
But apply it to real world. It starts to crumble. We're not all same. We're not all Americans. There are things beyond economy.
>>75197821
Marx stated that in a proletarian-run society, the state should control the "proceeds of labour" (i.e. all the food and products produced), and take from them that which was "an economic necessity", namely enough to replace "the means of production used up", an "additional portion for expansion of production" and "insurance funds" to be used in emergencies such as natural disasters. Furthermore, he believed that the state should then take enough to cover administrative costs, funds for the running of public services, and funds for those who were physically incapable of working.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat#Karl_Marx
> M-muh
Yeah fuck off nice try tho. The USSR followed Marxist principles but never achieved post-scarcity and therefore they never got to "true" communism.
>>75181039
Wrong. Means you get payed well and have health insurance and 6 weeks payed leave.
>>75196638
state is absolutely vital for a capitalist society. Wealth need to be redistributed
>>75196954
>pic related
>>75197016
>>Government welfarism is causing shit tier people to come to my nation
Welfare is a capitalist invention. A way to redistribute money.
If the workers were in charge, by extrapolating the voting paterns, we both know what would happen to those niggers
>Said the guy defending millions of dead at the hands of socialist regimes
I'm not defending them. I hate them as much as you. And they weren't socialist. The workers didn't owned the means of production.
And use some spaces between paragraphs and greentexts ffs
>small scale akin to Amish communes.
Amish are not industrialized. It's meaningless to talk about them as communism. Again communal farming is not a recent thing. It existed for as long as farming existed
>There is no possible way for any form of socialism to exist outside of around 100 individuals.
According too?
>>75198115
Technically no, a political entity would corrupt a pure capitalist society. Though it not necessarily bad. Entering into a social contract to provide for mutual security necessary.
>>75195164
>The majority of those deaths were from famines that the state couldnt of fixed
Wrong in every way. Within a year of Lenin taking over agriculture was suffering so much Lenin HAD to bring back capitalism, writing it off as peasents being too dumb for Communism. The people under Mao died because he insisted they use a batshit insane farming system based on lemarchism that didn't work. But because, you know, there's was no capitalism, there was competition. That's why authoritarianism is a bad idea. Personal pride should never be mixed with economics.
>>75197228
Marx also said that the revlution would take place in a advanced country, like germany and UK. Not Russia. Russians fuck everything up. Who know what would happen had the revolution first took place in germany...
>form a proletariat dictatorship.
Are you describing USSR as such?
>Communism is a meme utopia that Marx didn't even write much about because it was entirely a theoretical end-goal.
I aggre with you
>>75198561
Wealth redistribution is not capitalist. That's retarded. Capitalism it the exchange of good or services between two free and willful parties.
Taxing me and giving my wealth against my will to a third party by threat of force is not capitalism. That's state sponsored robbery.
>>75197584
Because i am discussing with many people at the same time. And you all have the same opinions and flags, so you all look the same.
>>75197702
I kind of aggre with you, but possibly due to ignorance
>>75197718
Must be. I only know about it in 2nd or 3rd hand.
>>75197788
>one economist doesn't like it, therefore it's not capitalism, wahhhhhh
>my completely right, never tried form of capitalism is the best!!! Just look at these graphs!!!!!
>>75191515
>wikipedia
>valid
Youre more cancerous than the roaches and caneddits combined leftyfag
>>75198784
Marx did not account for the welfare, the improvements in technology, the rising living standards, rising standards in health in education that rendered a "workers" movement obsolete.
Workers in the West have access to a shitload of consumer goods, and benefits enough to live rleatively comfy.
When Marx was writing he thought a revolt would be inevitable given the conditions of the time refer to Charles Dickens for an example.
>>75198784
Btw the USSR was literally a proletarian dictatorship. When Marx was saying that socialism is when workers own the means of production its the state that owns the means of production and the state is made up of workers because all other classes are eliminated at that point there is one class so the state naturally would only work in the interests of that one class.
Marxism is completely utter nigger tier nonsense grow out of it.
>>75181039
I hate long tern unemployment. I hate being fucking neet
>>75198237
>But apply it to real world. It starts to crumble.
Except it does work very very well
Amongst all cultures and creeds
And not just in economic terms
Studies done showing people's likely hood of being honest and selfless have the strongest correlation with being raised in a freer market capitalist economy with solid rule of law.>>75198561
>Welfare is a capitalist invention. A way to redistribute money.
Welfare has been opposed by every capitalist since Adam Smith
The only people pushing welfare for the last 100 years are people on the left who are staunchly opposed to capitalism.
> I'm not defending them. I hate them as much as you. And they weren't socialist. The workers didn't owned the means of production.
Trying to claim that socialist nations were better off under it than under capitalism is defending them
> Amish are not industrialized. It's meaningless to talk about them as communism.
Industrialization falls sounder Communism and Socialism because of the calculation problem.
Communism only exist in reality in very very small farming communities because that is the only place it can exist without failing due to this.
> According too?
The real world.
It says allot that Mises's argument that is 90 years old hasn't been addressed by one single socialist and that it has also been vindicated by every attempt at Socialism
>>75198127
free market != capitalism
>>75198835
It's needed. Else they would just hoard all the wealth.
>>75199192
You know wiki have sorces on their own? Disprove them. I choose wiki, because wiki is most of the times impartial, well written, reliable and written in a way americans can understand it.
>>75199203
>Marx did not account for the welfare
Exactly. Welfare is a absolutely vital carateristic of capitalism
>>75199525
>Btw the USSR was literally a proletarian dictatorship.
No, because it was run from top-bottom. Workers are as expoited, or even more, in USSR then in western world.
> When Marx was saying that socialism is when workers own the means of production its the state that owns the means of production
You are wrong. state owning !=worker owning it.
>Marxism is completely utter nigger tier nonsense grow out of it.
I'm not marxist. Not even socialist
Daily reminder to filter Alberto "Jerónimo de Sousa" Barbosa
>>75198244
> You are wrong. state owning !=worker owning it.
see >>75198244
>>75199109
>I kind of aggre with you, but possibly due to ignorance
No not possible ignorance
Deliberate willful ignorance demonstrated repeatedly.
> one economist doesn't like it, therefore it's not capitalism, wahhhhhh
No litteraly every single capitalist writer since Smith have opposed the neomercantilism with a healthy dose of fascist welfarism.
It is an astoundingly uniform voice.
>>75199203
>When Marx was writing he thought a revolt would be inevitable given the conditions of the time refer to Charles Dickens for an example.
The thibg about Dickens writting is that it is from ome perspective.
The people in rural unindustrialized regions were even worse off than those in the wealthier industrialized cities.
Poverty is the default human condition and so many people forget this and espouse endless ignorant opinions due to it
>>75181039
No.
Social Parasitism is a crime, comrade. 5 years in a camp of strict regime.
>>75199943
>No, because it was run from top-bottom. Workers are as expoited, or even more, in USSR then in western world.
See
>>75200258
>>75181039
You work until you die you fuck
>>75200055
>Marx believed that what was left should then be shared out amongst the workers, with each individual getting goods to the equivalent value of how much labour they had invested.
You fforgot this part
>>75200055
Obviously Marx didn't understand Marxism :^)
>>75199609
Ok.
>>75200592
>with each individual getting goods to the equivalent value of how much labour they had invested.
You forgot that that is what happened.
There just wasn't enough to go around because socialism is shit :^)
>>75184098
>venezuela is capitalist
Oh really..
http://www.vox.com/2016/5/26/11774482/venezuela-socialist-collapse
>>75200753
>>75200592
Also labor theory of value has been so debunked at every level anyone using it should be openly laughed at
>>75200592
Yeah and they did. It was literally almost impossible to get fired in the post-Stalin USSR you had to shit on a portrait of Brezhnev and fuck the boss's wife for that to happen. That's why people pretended to work and they pretended to get paid.
Of course, the Scientists, the military industrial complex and politburo received special privileges because they produced more value for the state
>>75199958
>Alberto "Jerónimo de Sousa" Barbosa
>Alberto "Commie Goy Boy Toy" Barbosa
>Alberto "Pinko Bleach Drinko" Barbosa
>Alberto "Fickle Hammer & Sickle" Barbosa
>Alberto "Revisionist Collectivist" Barbosa
>Alberto "Shill the Red Swill" Barbosa
>>75181039
It means everyone has to work.
>>75201154
>Of course, the Scientists, the military industrial
This is and the military itself(the soldiers and leadership knew the politicians were fucking retards) the only thing I have a modicum of respect about the old USSR.
Well all the people partaking in the black market economy that kept the nation running as long as it did as well.
What I don't understand about "lefty/pol/" is that they somehow think Leftism/Marxism is politically incorrect when it's actually encouraged, especially in Universities. Why do they think this?
>>75201154
The thing communists/socialists don't understand is that if there's no incentive to work hard and excell at what you do, nobody gives a fuck about doing so.. Could you imagine being paid exactly the same no matter if you're a burger flipper or a civil engineer?
It literally crushes any aspirations or motivations people might have.. What's there to wake up to everyday.. and it ofcourse destroys productivity completely aswell because what's driving it? when nobody cares about doing a good job since there's no fucking reward for it.
In a way Stalin and Mao truly understood how socialism was supposed to work because its the only way it can work.
Don't work? Don't want to work hard enough? Off to the gulag bitch. Oh you don't want to work in the gulag faggot? Execute him.
Oh you're a scientist? That's nice. Here's a bottle of vodka and a loaded pistol you have 72 hours to come up with a practical application for these schematics our spies stole form Germany have fun comrade.
Oh you don't want to be scientist and work for the common good eh? You have moral qualms about the revolutionary government eh? Shoot his wife in front of him and take the children hostage.
>>75201754
real socialism is the most poilitically uncorrect you can be bro. Fighting agaisnt status quo is always politically incorrect
That said i'm not socialist or marxist or whatever
>>75201937
>The thing communists/socialists don't understand is that if there's no incentive to work hard and excell at what you do,
But there is.
>Could you imagine being paid exactly the same no matter if you're a burger flipper or a civil engineer?
There is such a thing in socialism. Of course there is. Marx was not that retarded. Of course people take home different earnings
>>75186053
I don't think we are saying that nobody worked, we are saying that nobody got anything done. We know that not a lot is getting done.
>>75201754
Hey, you are learning from Trump you commie basted. Good job. Maybe you will figure out how to actually run propaganda some day.
>>75202267
This plus, get promoted, not by knowing how to do your job, but by informing on your boss.
>>75202867
>real socialism is the most poilitically uncorrect you can be bro. Fighting agaisnt status quo is always politically incorrect
There is a difference between being politically incorrect and just retarded.
Socialism is the later.
The themes of Marxism are also extremely mainstream amongst the status quo retard
> But there is.
A baseless assertion that is directly contradicted in every real world example of socialism.
> Of course people take home different earnings
Which are of course arbitrarily determined by leftist faggots who don't like the real world results that capitalism reflects.
>>75202867
I'm a National Socialist. That's as far left as someone can reasonably go, simply because anything further falls to pieces/stagnates or is just a fantasy that would never work. And again, "real socialism" is encouraged at every turn by globalist Jews like Soros to destroy Western ideals and to make themselves richer. Follow the paper trails.
>>75182280
communism is more like "you work and you die"
also
>implying hierarchy is bad
>>75203562
>>75203671
>socialism
>supported by capitalist globalist kikes
the stupidity is imesurable
>>75203562
>, simply because anything further falls to pieces/stagnates
Nat SOC also falls apart anon.
Realistically Socialism exist at the family level and at most a tribal level of less than a 100 people.
Once you lose the ability to personally know each individual you're working with the very core basic premises of socialist thought utterly fall apart
This isn't due to people being shit it has to do with the inability to disseminate and analyse information on the massive scale that is needed for any form of civilization to exist.
Aka the calculation problem.
Nazi Germany fell to this very very quickly combined with their policies of shutting down/tightly regulation of trade for "self sufficiency" which is what necessitated the war.
Mises and Hayek predicted what would happen in Nazi Germany a few years before it even existed while watching the trends leading up to its existence
>>75187697
>The Paris Commune and Catalonia in the Spanish War were much closer.
and neither were very stable or fleshed out, now were they?
>>75203869
Socialism is a leech thah can only temporarily exist while on the backs of capitalism on any scale outside of small communal farmers.
Eventually they run out of other people's money and collapse or adopt market forces(albeit historically when this has been do E without the complete collapse of the former nation it results in a fascist system that just barely allows the market to function IE China and Cuba vs eastern Europe) and survive
>>75204096
>Realistically Socialism exist at the family level and at most a tribal level of less than a 100 people.
You can't talk about socialism in a pre-industrial setting. Again, collectivism and communal farming is not the same as socialism/communism
>Once you lose the ability to personally know each individual you're working with
wat?
>very core basic premises of socialist thought utterly fall apart
what basic premises?
>This isn't due to people being shit it has to do with the inability to disseminate and analyse information on the massive scale that is needed for any form of civilization to exist.
explain
>Nazi Germany fell to this very very quickly combined with their policies of shutting down/tightly regulation of trade for "self sufficiency" which is what necessitated the war.
lol, you are stupid. Nazi germany never shied herself from obtaining resources fro outside the country. Autarky was supposed to be the future once german farmers would colonize the lebesnraum in the east, obviously after the genocide of slavs.
>>75204336
communal farmers!=socialism
But i am talking to a bot, so whatever
>Eventually they run out of other people's money
Like the banks did in '08?
>>75203869
Explain the EU and their outright opposition to all forms of any government even resembling the right then. Also explain why Soros and pals™ use the Socialist countries in the EU, like Sweden and Germany, to implement degradation of Western cultures and values rather than more Capitalistic countries. Not only this, but also why Globalists/Banks are actively supporting these governments, not just taking advantage of them. They're even trying to make the U.S into one of these states using Hillary/Sanders, for Gods sake.
>>75204096
Have any reading on this? Sounds interesting.
>>75204610
>You can't talk about socialism in a pre-industrial setting. Again, collectivism and communal farming is not the same as socialism/communism
Yes it is
Just because t doesn't have newfangled means of production doesn't mean that the communal ownership of the means of production don't exist
Again anything you don't like hat fits every description of communism and Socialism doesn't make it not it.
> wat
Yes wat indeed for a retarded leftist to not understand the nuanced observation that humans lose the ability to work together selflessly and coherently when they lose the ability to personally know and trust them.
> what basic premises?
For someone constantly bitching about"you don't know what socialism is" I'm ignoring this
Unless you suddenly forgot which seems to be a common theme with your faggot ass in which case again you don't deserve explanation.
> explain
The Mises calculation problem which I posted well over an hour ago and you ignored.
Ignoring it doesn't make it go away it makes you a faggot. A terribly delusional and zealous faggot
> lol, you are stupid. Nazi germany never shied herself from obtaining resources fro outside the country
Nice reading comprehension
They opposed trade in the form of capitalism and what trade did exist was extremely heavily regulated down to every single minor detail. Which brings up my second point which you made for me
> Autarky was supposed to be the future once german farmers would colonize the lebesnraum in the east, obviously after the genocide of slavs.
Because of their utter lack of desire to trade they would instead concur.
Which is why they died in the mkst dramatic way any political system had in history
It is a staunch and bloody example of the truism of "when goods are crossing borders troops are"
>>75181180
>Free health care does not mean good health care.
As a Canadian, I can confirm this.
>Be Canadian
>Want to see specialist
>Need to go to general doctor for a referral first
>Wait in line for 2 hours
>Go in and doctor makes the referral
>Appointment is in months
>Months pass
>Go to specialist
>Wait 2 hours
>Get in room and wait another 30 mins
>Doctor comes in at spends literally 5 minutes with me
Fuck free healthcare
>>75187597
>implying the sky isn't beneath the earth's crust
good job goy
>>75205198
This is sbort but refers to some very good books
https://mises.org/library/nazi-economic-policy
>>75204610
>Like the banks did in '08?
The 08 crises was due to government fascist policies I gave you reading materials explaining this.
> But i am talking to a bot, so whatever
Said the faggot that deliberately ignored any and all evidence directly refuting his position and instead will "forget it" and repeat the same tired empty rhetoric
>>75187597
I mean technically australias sky is beneath the earth`s crust
>>75205413
I can attest to that.
>sprain ankle
>go to hospital
>lots of ppl in waiting room
>FUCK
>pick number
>I'm number 62
>intercom: number 44 please come through the door, please, number 44 thank you
>>75181039
Communism means nobody works, which means no welfare money, which means you starve if you don't work, and probably still starve if you do. After a few years of that, the government steps in and it's work or be shot.
>>75205413
>Be American
>Need referral
>Make appointment with family practitioner on Monday for Wednesday.
>Spend 5mins in waiting room
>Family practitioner recommends MRI
>>Get prescription for MRI
>Get MRI the same day
As a Canadian how do you feel about your pets having better and cheaper (accounting for the difference in care inherent to animals vs people) medical care than people?
>>75181039
nah it means you work for someone else and someone else works for you
>>75205662
>Getting medicalcare is like the DMV.
>>75187434
>they miss the glory not the regime, if u think u work now in the slave capitalistic system wait till communism will arrive, ull work 6 days a week
t.18 year old shitstain
