So what's the deal with Communism? Russian Bros, do you guys like it?
I hear a lot of mixed biased opinions. Quite a shockingly large handful of people I know are extremely pro Communism and worship the fuck out of Stalin and Putin. Others say it's shitty and right up there with fascism.
I get the main jist of Communism, I just want to know if the people who actually live in it enjoy and agree with it.
>>74972126
>Russian Bros, do you guys like it?
No.
Communism was never tried. The USSR was a fascist, authoritarian regime pretending to be communist.
You do realize that Russia has not been communist since the end of the cold war right?
>>74972126
Communism will never succeed because people are lazy, stupid, and greedy. Power hungry individuals rise up and always ruin it, while the means of production slow down from lazy workers with no incentive to work.
It ha skilled hundreds of millions of people, and only leads to suffering and starvation.
I always see Cubans in Miami with communist flags. Of course they always lie on /pol/ about it.
I see a lot of Russians on social media celebrating the communist flag as well.
>>74972222
Hold a socialist society together requires an authoritarian regime, because of that "true" communism will never be achieved it's doomed to fail in the socialist phase as it always has.
>>74972126
>pro communism
>worship Putin
Ah?
>>74972126
East Germans had to be shot on sight by Soviets to prevent mass migration. And East Germany was less communist than every other communist country at the time.
Imagine the 'more communist' countries. People lived in hell. No social mobility, the State owns you. No future. Food was granted by the State but at what cost. No freedom of speech.
Russia stopped being communist in 1989 and became a crony capitalist oligarchy with a bit more freedom. It's on the right path to become a nice country.
>>74972222
You can't try it you should make it happen.
In today's world it's impossible to make it happens... we need a more advanced world, so just go research the technologies you need for it to happen...
As most of early commie communists said, it's something will happen as a result of advancement automatically.
There are very specific reasons why it doesnt work out, at least in its Russian incarnation. But people are retards and dont actually care about WHY it failed, they just see that it did.
So if somebody says "hey let's look at why the USSR failed and implement socialism without making the same mistakes" stupid people immediately launch into the whole "muh perfect unique socialism has never been tried" bullshit.
Giving up on the entire concept is like throwing out your car because it got a flat tire.
>>74972516
Every commie regime brought destruction to their own people,country/nation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism
>>74972126
Shit thing, don't even try it at home. We had to ask you guys about food after ussr's fall.
>>74972640
>Brazil
>Venezuela
>South Africa
>Russia
>China
>Vietnam
>Cuba
Kill yourself
>>74972386
>Hold a socialist society together requires an authoritarian regime
What makes you say this? Because socialism is against "human nature"? I think that you are severely underestimating the power of psychology and ideology. Self preservation is human nature too, yet people still blow themselves up for Allah.
>>74972386
This, it ends up creating an even more elite class of bureaucrats who are untouchable, so the politicians have the most to gain from creating a "communist" society.
Stalin was responsible for the deaths of 30 million Russians through labor camps, executions and starvation, so Russians who remember the USSR are generally staunchly against it. 30 million is a conservative estimate. Yet for some reason many people have fond memories of Stalin, but that's because of his cult of personality. Nikita Kruschev denounced him for this after Stalin's death. That larger than life personality is why so many people draw comparisons between Putin and Stalin.
>>74972452
Like I said, I've heard lots of biased one way or the other opinions. For example, one of my friends who is probably the single most communist supporting American I've ever met, says that Putin used to be in the KGB and he's working to restore Russia back to the Soviet Union.
>>74972126
Not at all. Dat guys ruined true Russian country.
>>74972640
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
Which variant of communism is working,and worked ever? (any society adopted it and living prosperusly because of it)
>>74972931
Exactly. Socialists, leftists, and communists think that some mega rich kike with billions of dollars is just going to relinquish his psychopathic lust for power and life of luxury for "the greater good". So much naivety.
>>74972888
>Brazil
A moderately leftist government is caught up in a corruption scandal, something that happens to both left and right wing governments all across the developing world.
>Venezuela
Was doing fine until sanctions, drought, and collapse of oil prices.
>South Africa
Was a clusterfuck before Mandela.
>Russia
Collapsed mainly because of corruption and the logistical difficulties of centrally managing national economy. Could have been solved by greater democratization to hold corrupt officials accountable and devolution of economic power to the individual republics.
>China
Same situation as Russia.
>Vietnam
They're doing quite well actually.
>Cuba
Embargo and corruption without the democratic mechanisms to hold officials to account. Even so they have been consistently better off than their neighbors.
>>74973040
Centralized Soviet-style socialism and similar systems is the only one that had ever really been tried for an extended amount of time, and I'm not an advocate of that.
Yugoslavia Strong
Communism is:
Bad things:
No private property.
No freedom of speech.
No social mobility: you stay blue collar all your life in the same position. Maybe you get promoted but you can't get paid more.
No choice of goods. What you can buy is decided by the State.
No freedom of movement. You can't travel.
No freedom of capital. Good luck buying foreign currency.
No freedom of thought. Books and newspapers are all controlled by the State.
No political debate. You can't grow intellectually.
Good things:
Granted food and water (not always hey).
Granted job.
Granted healthcare.
Free education ('education').
Sense of belonging and identity.
>>74973188
>South Africa
>clusterfuck before Mandela
Holy shit dude you are a fucking idiot. If you love communism so much maybe you should get out of North America and go to the Phillipines. Stop trying to impose your retarded ideology onto others, societies already exist for you. Go to them, leave us in peace.
>>74972948
There's a clear distinction between "restoring USSR" as in what Putin wants, and restoring socialism in russia.
Putin wants to get back the geopolitical power the USSR had and bring an end to the american world hegemony. But for him communism is gone for good.
>>74973301
Yeah it hasn't been tried for an extended period of time because it always fails you dumbfuck.
Only a spoiled first worlder would advocate such a trendy ideology.
>>74973355
>South Africa
I mean it was fine if you were white.
>Stop trying to impose your retarded ideology onto others
I'm merely exercising my sacred right to freedom of expression and conscience. I will also exercise my democratic rights and vote however I please. If you dont like that then go to a country where people aren't allowed to express opinions you disagree with.
Russia was at it's greatest with communism
>>74973524
>Yeah it hasn't been tried for an extended period of time because it always fails you dumbfuck.
Or something has usually showed up to ruin things in a hurry, (Bolsheviks, Franco, etc.)
Alternative, non-state forms of socialism usually dont last long because somebody always rushes in to put an end to it, people dont just give up on it.
>>74973188
>Brazil
not communist. Not apply.
>Venezuela
if a drought and commodity prices bring down a country, maybe it wasnt doing that fine.
>South Africa
not communist but becoming dictatorship. Apartheid was good.
>Russia
Now is doing better. USSR was unsustainable and state planned economy was failing.
>China
tens of millions of people died under Mao. Now it's capitalist, with a touch of authoritarianism. Doing better.
>Vietnam
Shithole.
>Cuba
Shithole to live in, but colorful and warm in culture. Communism kept it poor.
>>74973322
That doesn't apply to all commie countries.
In fact, besides limited freedom of speech, none of those applied to Yugoslavia for example.
>Free education ('education').
Education was pretty good. Or far better than what we have today.
I'm not even a commie supporter, but you're wrong.
Antifa shills go back to /leftypol/
>>74973830
What does 'pretty good mean'? Did you live under Yugoslavia?
>>74973761
>if a drought and commodity prices bring down a country, maybe it wasnt doing that fine.
Then its a real question of diversification of the economy. Investing all your money in oil is just retarded, it has nothing to do with right or left.
>USSR was unsustainable and state planned economy was failing.
I agree, planned economy is logistically impossible. If they had done what Lenin wanted and stuck with an economy based on autonomous soviets competing in a largely free market then they wouldnt have had those issues.
>>74973964
>What does 'pretty good mean'?
Both in comparison to what we had before and objectively.
>Did you live under Yugoslavia?
No but I know people who did?
>>74973322
>Sense of belonging and identity.
Yeah, in the way that your entire ethnic group hates communism and is united against it.
>>74973553
>sacred right to freedom of expression and conscience.
Doesn't exist in a communist state, enjoy it while it lasts
>>74974117
I'd imagine you'd feel differently if you implemented it yourself instead of having it forced on you by the Soviets. Lots of Yugoslavians and Russians remember communism fondly, but nostalgia can be a bitch.
>>74972126
Worked like a clock under Stalin and later in 50-60s. Overall communism helped my country achieve in 20 years what we would achieve for 100 years otherwise, we would be like modern India, capitalism-democracy yet poo in loo. And don't forget fast rebuilding after war. The reason Stalin gets so much hate in the west is because of that, nobody cares about some dead russians.
Some of our people love to spit on our red past, I don't. Reds build a foundation my nation stands on today.
>>74973322
Let me correct some things. For record I oppose Gommunism.
>No private property.
There was personal property.
>No freedom of speech.
Restricted but totalitarian stuff is overstated.
>No social mobility: you stay blue collar all your life in the same position. Maybe you get promoted but you can't get paid more.
Not true. You could be born a peasant and end up ruling.
>No choice of goods. What you can buy is decided by the State.
Not true. You go to a shop and you buy. The limitation was based on production and wages like anywhere else. Problem was in Gommunism production tended to lack in consumer areas.
>No freedom of movement. You can't travel.
Not true.
>No freedom of capital. Good luck buying foreign currency.
Freedom of capital meaning what?
>No freedom of thought. Books and newspapers are all controlled by the State.
True in terms of the books and newspapers you could see, but you could still think for yourself.
>No political debate
Not true. It was just biased towards Communism.
>You can't grow intellectually.
Not true. Soviet education was actually quite good, the education we inherited from it is also still very good even with the limitations of how poor Russia is compared to the West.
>>74974196
Do you have a high school understanding of political theory?
Economic system =/= political system
There is literally no reason why basic freedoms like freedom of speech, conscience, assembly, etc can't be guaranteed under socialism.
>>74973301
So you want to try a country sized social experiment?
>>74973322
let me analyze a bit more from an USSR standpoint
>No private property.
In theory, yes, but in practise people still have their own habitats, apparel and appliances. In name it's owned by the community, but you're using them so much that nobody else is going to touch them.
>No freedom of speech
You were pretty free to say whatever you wanted - but the authorities were also free to try and re-educate you after you spoke.
>No social mobility
False, competent people got bumped to managers and were paid more than the low-grade employees
>No choice of goods
True to an extent, we did have some "spillage" from the west here like Beatles CDs and whatnot, but the choice of goods was pretty bland, yes. Oranges and watermelons were a luxury that only came to stores once a year.
>no freedom of capital
Can't really answer that, I think you were able to get money from other Warszaw Pact countries though
>no freedom of thought
False, you could get all sorts of books. Some were with "censor's commentary" that debunked those books on the first or last page, but you could still read them.
>no political debate
Of course you could have political debates. Everyone had the freedom to debate which road is the best to take to reach communism.
>>74972126
Fuck off commie kike shill
>>74973973
>Investing all your money in oil
Venezela is managed by incompetent people. Still, the drought question still stands. Why did it happen? Was the State being inefficient? Wouldn't free farmers had been more effctive in taking measures?
>If they had done what Lenin wanted
Didn't Lenin want the transition from dictatorship of the people to local, self managed entities totally self indipendent? He was an idealist, this couldn't possibly be done in 20's Russia. Not even in today's Russia.
>>74974421
Well I'm a reformist, so I'd say push things to the left and see how it turns out, if it works then great, if not then stop, find out what went wrong and try something else.
Most people would probably agree that the communist ideal is a good one, so we should try to get as close to that as possible. I just happen to think that we can get closer than most people seem to believe.
>>74974237
>Lots of Yugoslavians and Russians remember communism fondly
Only the scum class that can't think for themselves. Educated Russians are very much against the USSR because they suffered just as much as the rest of us.
Sadly my people tend to forget that fact at times and just throw all Russians into the same group as commies.
>>74972640
>>74974421
Don't bother to argue with such people. They are delusional controlling people who want everyone to live under their rules rather than just mind their own business. The only way to win against a communist is with a bullet in their head.
It's a commie raid thread, they link it somewhere else then all pile in here and shill for their retarded ideas.
>>74972126
No it was shit.
>>74974351
Of course, but it never works out that way in the end.
>>74974588
What do you define by left?
>>74974350
I think >>74974504 knows better. You're still a russkie full of national pride. I think an Estonian is more objective.
>>74974596
Not really. I mean, most rational people would argue like this: it had it's bad and good sides.
It's a part of our history and we shouldn't repeat it, but we shouldn't cast it to oblivion either.
>>74974721
I read his comment. I don't think much disagreement is there.
>>74974573
>Why did it happen? Was the State being inefficient? Wouldn't free farmers had been more effctive in taking measures?
I can't say, but I do know that droughts have tanked developing economies before, regardless of left or right wing governments.
> He was an idealist, this couldn't possibly be done in 20's Russia. Not even in today's Russia.
I dont think so, what you would basically be talking about would be a free market, profits are just equitably distributed among all the members of the commune/soviet, and decisions are made democratically.
>>74974772
>you would basically be talking about would be a free market
Free market under perfect competition reduces profits to zero for all participants in the long run and it opens the possibility of market exit, i.e. bankruptcy for lack of competitiveness. I suggest you taking some microeconomics classes, it's interesting and a lot of free lectures are online.
>>74974755
Yugoslavia is not fucking Russia, get it into your dumb Serbian head for once.
Communism in the USSR was absolute shit while it was communism. True, after Stalin's death things got a lot better, but the damage had already been done and the heads of the USSR started moving away from their founding ideologies.
>>74974721
he literally said the same things I said
>>74974674
It hasn't worked out that way by and large, but then again no communist government ever came to power through peaceful means, or in a country that already had an established political culture of democracy and freedom.
Think about it, a Russian in 1917 is used to having Tsarist secret police knocking on his door and throwing him in jail for saying the wrong thing. So when the Soviets do it it isnt any different, they can get away with it and furthermore since that kind of repression is a part of Russian life, neither the people nor the government see it as out of the ordinary.
If a communist government had come to power in America for example, the people wouldnt have put up with that kind of thing, so any regime that wanted to keep its head would respect those rights.
>>74974764
You may want to catch his sarcasm is some of his statements. There's a lot of disagreement.
>>74975021
Well he said ''Yugoslavians and Russians'' so I thought you're arguing for both.
>>74975144
I think you read into it too much.
>>74972228
The second biggest party in Russia's federal parliament is the Communist Party.
>>74974993
>Free market under perfect competition reduces profits to zero for all participants in the long run and it opens the possibility of market exit
Who says there would be perfect competition? Soviets werent state controlled, they were autonomous, meaning they would be diverse, of different sizes and functions, use different methods, some would succeed and others would fail.
>>74972126
Do we like the cult that cause death of millions of our people, stealing our homes and destroying our culture? Well, some of us are, there are cucks in Russia too, but I believe the majority of us don't.
>>74975257
Key word being second.
>>74975316
I sincerely hope you die.
>>74975140
Really? USA government illegaly spies on it's citizens and jails those who dare to publish data about it, state officials can lie to congress and walk away. I didn't see any uprisings, and those occupy wallstreet kids were just beaten by cops eventually.
>>74975257
They got 19% of votes. Czech commies also got 15% for that matter.
>>74975389
LDPR is based as fuck, why do you guys suck United Russia's dick so much?
>>74975257
The communist generation has yet to die off, and they were taught from a very young age that communism is THE BEST THING so many of them are still devout communists.
>>74975021
fuck you you fucking estonian cunt go fucking suck my serbian cock then talk shit, bitch.
>>74972126
nah
>>74975257
They're socialist really, it's just the name is good brand here. I vote for them because Putin tries to cut benefits for cripples (real invalids, not suprerfat) and old people all the time, and I hate that. Fucking faggot, if you want to save money for budget kill some jews and nationalize what they stole during privatisation.
>>74972126
>I just want to know if the people who actually live in it enjoy and agree with it.
> who actually live in it
Who would that be?
>>74975140
Exactly, and for that reason communism will never work out.
It's not that it can't come about by peaceful means, it's just that it won't because of human nature.
>>74975140
Oh that fearsome Tsarist secret police and Tsarist oppression...that resulted in 2000 people executed over the span of 100 years.
Seriously, educate yourself.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Nechayev
Russia was full of shitheads like this. Besides, Bolsheviks never enjoyed support of majority in Russia. SR was more popular.
>>74975661
whoever agrees with him so he can use it as justification to destroy the very society that allows him to post this retarded shit
>>74975316
Perfect competition means that there are no boundaries to competition, i.e. they are free to compete. The zero profits theory is actually true and it's the best option, since innovation brings competitiveness and more profits, and therefore more failures.
The failure of single soviets would have been disastrous, and it would have needed State help to prevent starvation.
I don't think Lenin intended to make the Soviet union a big microeconomics game where states fail under a borders' closed free market. He maybe thought about a reality with no market at all.
>>74975534
LDPR? A fake party created by UR led by deranged clown since 90s. Based as fuck, yeah...
>>74975140
>Think about it, a Russian in 1917 is used to having Tsarist secret police knocking on his door
Also not true. What the fuck do they teach to you about Russia? There were only a few thousand secret police in all of Russia, they were used for fighting domestic terrorism under the Tsars. They hardly killed anybody in all their time of existence.
>>74975534
LDPR is a meme. They are basically just Putin's guys for testing public opinion when he wants to test a policy or say something he cannot say.
>>74975621
They don't even follow Leninism anymore.
>>74972948
I would like to punch your friend in the face, senpai.
>>74974306
Let me get this straight
The US builds a superpower based on a combination of Capitalism and expansionalism- and save for the Natives it was done through voluntary cooperation
>Muh slaves
Slaves were actually holding industry back.
The Tsar and his backwards system oversaw a stagnating Russia, and then Lenin and Stalin came to industrialize it with brutal means.
That doesn't mean Lenin or Stalin are good. It means the Tsar was a shit.
>>74974652
I like pragmatic approach.I understand they want controll.... but at what cost?
When they can have controll,most of them will be incompetent and only bring destruction to any society they enter,or get in power.
>>74975938
why is that?
you have not posted whether or not you were fond of communism and why or why not
>>74975986
Tsar fell because of the war not his economics.
Communism has never, and never will emerge from a modestly sucsessful state.
Communist governments only come in to power during times of national shit, and a developed nation will never drop capitalism in favour of it. Communism relies on the strength of the worker, if the worker is abused, then the entire system is compromised. Lenin's soviet union was moderately sucsessful because people just came out of the dictatorship of the tsar. compared to imperial russia, communism seemed like a paradise.
Once corruption and worker abuse happens, people lose interest in communism because it can't offer them anything that they can't get through capitalist means. Communism can't work with a dictator.
The story seems to repeat with all communist states, even the ones who were just a political pissing match during the cold war. Revolutions are met with parades, but when it comes to the quality of life for the common poletariat, the state would rather spend money on security and civilian control
>>74976051
>logical leaf
RARE
>>74972640
>a society can perfectly distribute everything without a tyranny of the majority or organized government
>forcing people to work for everyone else isn't a hierarchy!
>this can be implemented on a scale wider than a commune of people voluntarily adopting this system!
Literally the most retarded ideology.
>>74976038
>The war
And he had centuries of stagnation behind him.
The Bolsheviks and Mensheviks fought against imperialism and what they saw was capitalism.
>>74976051
If an ideology was a failure was it the mistake of the ideology,or was it the mistake of people who created it?
>>74974504
>>No private property.
>In theory, yes, but in practise people still have their own habitats, apparel and appliances.
You are mistaken private and pesonal property. Personal property that is act of consumption is fine ass soon as you create profit from it you commiting worse possible crime. Property becomes private aka capital. Pro tip: you could own car in USSR but you can't drive someone for pay it was crime. Police could stop you in USSR and check passengers documents, if they are not your relatives you could be charged with crime (illegal taxing).
>>74976354
>And he had centuries of stagnation behind him.
Russia was fastest growing industry of the world at that time.
He's right, it was war that killed Tsarist regime, in addition to Tsar not wanting to compromise.
>>74972126
Long story short, it's made for ants not people.
>>74976436
Interesting. I guess I'll have to look more into this.
4 years of high school textbooks strike once again.
>>74976051
>compared to imperial russia, communism seemed like a paradise.
An old woman asked her granddaughter who had just come back from school what they had been studying. She told her grandmother "Communism", the old woman asked, "what is Communism?" The little girl replied "Communism is when we will have food in the stores and there will be enough food for all." "Ah" the old woman replied seeming happy, "just like under the Tsar".
>>74976354
Meme, Russia before the war was in an enormous boom.
>>74975927
>What the fuck do they teach to you about Russia?
A lot of American perceptions about Tsarist Russia, even those held by "conservatives", are based on communist memes. Trotsky and other leftist exiles like Emma Goldman had a big impact on intellectual life and how America viewed the country in general then and now.
>>74976436
The growth rate is just a meme. If a country is dirt poor and just started to develop, the growth rate would be higher than 10% because it's easy to grow from nothing to something more. Developed countries grow under five percent because it's more difficult to grow in an already developed condition.
>>74976354
Capitalism is kind of a convoluted term for the communists. Do you imagine that the state sat around a bonfire of roubles chanting "death to capitalism"?
Communist economics rely on one sole bread winner to keep the whole place out of shit. When america's state revenues go to shit, there's still corporations and companies keeping people employed. Capitalist economics are better in a sense because there's more contributers to the economy
>>74976663
This.
>>74976718
Well he's argument was that it was stagnation, and it wasn't.
>>74975257
First their vote literally doesn't matter. United Russia could alone vote in any law, they have decisive majority for like what 10 years? Second "Communist " party is just teh name they are political whores begging for leftovers from Kremlin table and selling nostalgia feel.
Communists can never address the fact that some people are not reasonable or agreeable enough to live in an equal society. Some people are simply psychopaths with an extreme lust for power and control.
Sociopathic and psychopathic behavior cannot be cured.
Like I said here >>74973130 no billionaire kike is going to give up his money nor control of society to live equally amongst peasants. He will only fool you into thinking that's his goal so he can further extort you.
Communism is just the end game of Capitalism. Read the book - when capitalism innovates technology to the point where no one has to work (automation), then there is no need for property and the rich class, thus the people will take over control.
Stalin and Putin were dumb as fuck and pretty much killed communism by trying to do it without the correct conditions.
>>74972312
>Cubans in Miami
>pro-Communism
I'm not saying it's never happened, but that would be a rare sight. And it's probably just the US-born children of immigrants trying to be rebellious. I grew up in Miami, I've known a LOT of people from Cuba, and in my experience they universally despise Communism and distrust liberalism.
>>74975404
And somehow I'm the one who wants to take away people's freedom right?
>>74976916
>Stalin and Putin
You mean Lenin?
>>74976367
The ideaology for communism is relitively solid as a temporary government to help clean up after a mess. After a generation, it's like beating a dead horse
>>74976663
Never heard that one. What i'm trying to say is that communism turns to fascism in a hurry. All governments try to glorify themselves to their people, and god knows both ideaologies starved a lot of people
>>74976948
Americuck education.
>>74976727
Gold. I want to add that private entities are more efficient than the state because they face the possibility of bankruptcy if they manage their shit poorly. The government instead can do the fuck it wants, it will shift the burden on the taxpayers or sell debt.
>>74976354
>Centuries of stagnation
A meme from the massive pre-revolution history overwrite by the reds.
>>74976718
>The growth rate is just a meme. If a country is dirt poor and just started to develop, the growth rate would be higher than 10% because it's easy to grow from nothing to something more.
This is how USSR got its astounding grows...
>>74976717
I am starting to see this, everything is just memes.
>>74976916
>When capitalism innovates technology to the point where no one has to work (automation), then there is no need for property and the rich class, thus the people will take over control.
What if someone comes to the conclusion that because of automation the minimum wage masses are no longer needed?
>>74977079
That's true, but protection of profits can lead to some pretty cruel dessicions on both sides.
As a general rule, governments are shit at running companies
>>74977287
Why do you need automation in the first place?
>>74977287
It never happens anyway, people have been warning about massive job losses from technology since the luddites in the 1700s who went around destroying English factories.
>>74976278
You are putting words in my mouth m80. I never at any point advocated literally any of that shit.
Not to mention you seem to have a very narrow understanding of what tyranny of the majority means, as well as a very rosy view of capitalism (you seem to imply that capitalism doesn't force you to work when in reality it does).
>this can be implemented on a scale wider than a commune of people voluntarily adopting this system!
You didnt even read the post did you mate? Do you know why the USSR collapsed? The two big reasons were the corruption of the government which was so rampant because there was no democratic mechanisms through which the government could be held accountable for their actions. Therefore there was no way to fight corruption apart from the goodwill of public officials.
The second problem was the impracticality of centralized control over such a massive economy, which is a problem that could have been solved by decentralization.
There were also other issues like ethnic tensions but that has nothing to do with socialism.
You are literally one of the people I bitched about in the post, you see the failure of the USSR and immediately assume that the whole concept was shit instead of actually examining why it had the problems that it did.
Things my mum told me about communism:
>shortages of things like butter and plastic bags
>Fed propaganda and lived in constant fear of invasion
>Western films were banned
>Forced military service (proper service with intense training)
>Shitty apartments given by the state
>strong spririts banned
Some good things
>Free uni so she could go from a peasant girl to a doctor
>Got to tour the country with friends as trains were cheap
>improved infrastructure
>lots of sports camps and youth clubs for you to join
>>74977287
>>74977409
>>74976916
Complete automation is impossible, at least in this century and some more in the future. What is clear is that the working class and the menial jobs, except a few, will be all wiped out by the machines.
What I foresee is a new movement of Luddism in the automated world, where poorly educated people can't get menial jobs/low requirements jobs because the machines are more cost efficient.
>>74977646
I'm talking about being an ancom you fucking retard
>>74972516
>what is Yugoslavia
People there left whenever they wanted to, and the standard of living was comparable to the West.
>>74977888
AnCom is just organizing the economy through co-operatives and syndicates and having a minimalist, democratic government to maintain order.
>>74977674
>strong spririts banned
But 3 liter bottles of ethanol based cologne in production.
>>74977886
Complete automation is not possible. Not unless we genetically engineer brain dead human robots. Then ask yourself what kind of society you want to live in.
We will continue to innovate and invent new kinds of work.
One thing that is for certain is within the next 100 years it will be a game of the haves vs the have-nots. If you come from money you will be ok. If you are poor then you will have no job skills and menial labor will be worthless, you will stay poor. Even more so than today.
>>74972228
It's not exactly capitalist either.
Like 60% of the Russian economy is directly or indirectly under state control so it's more like a state-directed capitalism like China is now where massive SOE's dominate most industries.
>>74978177
They were banned but people still made them. My mum said that the smell was so strong during the summer that the secret police could just walk down the street and tell that they were being brewed
>>74972126
Communists have no ambition which is why they want everyone to be treat the same. They already know they're worthless and don't think other people should be allowed to do better than them because they already know they simply can't compete with the strongest. The student types are generally edgy faggots looking for a way to rebel, but with something they aren't going to get in trouble for. If they wanted to really rebel, in an edgy sense, they would be National Socialists because it's universally hated (probably because it was the last time a white society was truly progressive), but instead they're shitty arse "Communists" who can go straight to "Wow, why don't you like me? I just want us all to be treat fairly. Why are you against that?" as soon as someone questions them. They're fucking worthless.
>>74972783
> a book labeled fiction by universities
> a book in which the author admitted 'mathematical error'
> counting children not born as 'victims'
i hate communism as much as the next guy, but this book is bullshit when it comes to arguments against communism. Common sense gets u further man
>>74977646
Well, we didn't witness such a massive collapse of a relatively stable country since the Ottoman empire post-WW1. Countries like Italy and China are like symbiotic organisms with government corruption, yet they still stand and do not fail so miserably like the USSR. China still has a form of central planned economy! I think the question of the USSR is more profound than economics and PA corruption. It was a matter of ideology. We all know how the young Soviets were happy when they could get their hands on a Beatles' album. We all know how East Germans reacted when they saw the West Berlin supermarkets. Communism really failed: the russians did not want anything of it anymore. Then, nostalgia happened, but it is a normal phenomenon in such big changes (people in Italy still want Mussolini back, even if they say he was shit).
>>74972888
>Brazil
>Venezuela
>South Africa
>China
>communist or socialist
wew lad
South Africa has active far left parties, but the record of labor rights and wages is terrible and there's a massive wealth gap. China is state capitalist. Venezuela is right now a mixed economy but was socialist until Chavez died. Brazil was a social democracy under Lula, and things were going well then, but the country has a mediocre record of labor rights and a massive wealth gap.
>>74972891
Shh no truth allowed
>>74973761
> communism kept cuba poor
> not the fall of the soviet union and an embargo since 1962
yeah sorry.
>>74975534
>LDPR is based as fuck
>>74977646
>? Do you know why the USSR collapsed? The two big reasons were the corruption of the government which was so rampant because there was no democratic mechanisms through which the government could be held accountable for their actions. Therefore there was no way to fight corruption apart from the goodwill of public officials.
>The second problem was the impracticality of centralized control over such a massive economy, which is a problem that could have been solved by decentralization.
>There were also other issues like ethnic tensions but that has nothing to do with socialism.
These are inherent threat to any centralised tyranny and they have no natural mechanisms to fight these effects. And any marxism socialism need to be absolute tyranny otherwise it can not ban private property which was proved by Marx as mechanism to steal workers produced added value.
>>74977886
Says who? Maybe not this century but it is the end game of capitalism. Computers are already doing more farm work than actual people. We have self taught AIs capable of doing human jobs, and will be developed in the next century to fit on robots instead of thousands of super computers. We will have self driving cars in 20 years, which means trucking and transportation costs are going to shrink, especially when renewable energy becomes more efficient.
Working class jobs will be gone, and there will be a huge period before full automation where they will struggle to adapt. Basic income is worthless since our society is inherently consumerist.
That's the true form of communism, a violent uprising against those who have by those who do not. If the powerful have not taken our guns away already, the working class will revolt to take back power from the few who wield it. With it, they will create a system that is more fair and uses the technology to benefit all, vs. the elite, which is communism.
>>74978058
Minarchy and anarchy are two different things.
>>74977886
This
Humans aren't horses and because of that communism will never have a place, because there will always be something a human can do for money and the most optimal state of an economy will be with people producing and not being neets, natural market forces are the best things to meet demand and innovate
>>74978561
>Countries like Italy and China are like symbiotic organisms with government corruption, yet they still stand and do not fail so miserably like the USSR. China still has a form of central planned economy! I
They all have one thing in common. They all are capitalist countries which alow private property. USSR didn't.
>>74977646
>you see the failure of the USSR and immediately assume that the whole concept was shit instead of actually examining why it had the problems that it did.
But that's the whole point, USSR has proven in practice impossibility of communism.
No matter how you look at it, it's shit: once opposition is dealt with "revolutionary vanguard" has no reason to relinquish their absolute power to the common folks, proletariat is quick to turn on their former comrades in a bid to get more power and(or) goodies, not to mention that average person is hardly capable or informed enough to manage state-wide issues or merely enforce their will - even in traditionally democratic states.
And that doesn't even take into account inherent flaws in commie theory.
>>74978561
You're equating communism too much with authoritarianism, when in reality they are unrelated. If there had been democracy and personal freedoms in Russia from the beginning of the USSR then they wouldn't have had the problems that they did. It's also important to remember the great lengths that the world powers went to to make sure that the USSR failed.
It's kind of hard to build a prosperous society when everybody is trying to stop you at every turn.
>>74972931
>Russians who remember the USSR usually hate it
Not true. Despite the fact that the GULAG Archipelago is required reading in schools, millions of Russians are nostalgic for the old days. 40% or so think highly of Stalin.
>>74979020
Democracy and personal freedoms had to be disposed of in the USSR because only about 25% of people actually wanted Lenin in power.
>>74973040
Democratic confederalism, market socialism, and other forms of non totalitarian socialism/communism usually work well.
>>74978945
You are acting as if Soviet socialism is the only model, when in fact it's a very specific system. There doesn't need to be a vanguard party, there doesn't need to be a revolution. This is exactly what I was talking about, you are looking at he problems and instead of trying to think of ways to fix them, you just claim that the entire system is pointless.
The only thing the USSR taught us is that centralized authoritarian state socialism doesn't work.
>>74978855
Machines are more efficient than farmers and field workers and cashiers and many more. Machines will free the people from such shitty jobs. It will be a true evolution of human society. Communism is possible in Wall-E form. But when in the future will we have such technology that almost everything will be done by the machines and humans will see all their needs provided with no need of class and competition?
>>74979095
Then the country clearly wasn't ready for communism. I'm consider myself a left-libertarian, but I take the libertarian part more seriously. If I could pick between having communism and having democracy I would pick the latter every time, but unlike other people I don't see the two as mutually exclusive.
>>74973322
>what is private vs. personal property
Also, in many types of socialism/communism, wages are determined by workers' councils.
>>74978679
Not talking about modern day you idiot. I'm talking about the historical analysis of those countries and proof why socialist and communist parties are such shit.
>>74973322
>waiting 25 years for a gouse
>waiting 10 years for a car
>waiting 3-4 hours in line for a loaf of bread and 3 eggs
>>74979020
>You're equating communism too much with authoritarianism, when in reality they are unrelated.
They are. Authoritarianism is the inherent property of communism. Voluntary exchange of goods aka between two people aka capitalism is teh death of communistic state so this state needs mechanism to enforce prohibition of such exchanges, It only could be done by absolute tyranny.
>>74973524
No, the reason non-Soviet systems often are short lived is because a rabidly anti-communist or authoritarian communist group like the US or Soviet Union comes in and crushes the whole affair.
>>74972222
>74972222
USSR was not Fascist in the slightest.
>>74972199
I fucking love this world.
>>74979631
This, in a capitalist minarchist state communes could exist, but capitalist communities would be breaking the law in a communist minarchy
>>74979631
No, it can only be done by outlawing private enterprise. That isn't the same as restricting freedom of speech, not having elections, punishing political dissidents, etc. There is no reason why one has to lead to the other, the authoritarian nature of the USSR was far simpler in my opinion and had nothing to do with communism. Party elites simply didn't want to relinquish their power, which can happen in any country.
![latest[2].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/KBkNuAm.jpg "latest[2].jpg")
>>74978855
Tech (communication networks, military industrial complex, social system) is and will be controlled by the elite.
There will be no uprising. The "revolutionaries" shouting for equality will see "Your account has been suspended due to terms of service violations" on their screens and will be completely shut out from any meaningful method of communication.
>alternative comm methods
Can't compete with the flashy TV, easily negated by total surveillance, which is easily achievable by now.
The annihalation of "nationality" or any other non-state sponsored "group" and the promotion of egoistic individualism ensures that a person is completely dependant on the state. Just disable the dissidents bank account for a while, he will be shunned as a leper when trying to ask help from strangers.
tl;dr: The Monopoly mans grip on society benefits greatly from technology and the inherent total master obediance of machines.
>>74979177
>market
>socialism
Choose one.
>>74979692
>USSR was not Fascist in the slightest.
It was not. But they have very many things in common. Only real difference is nation question. Fascism in nationalistic communism is internationalistic.
>tfw filtered German, Israel and Russian flags
This thread is just passing dust for all I care
>>74979953
>Have elections
>People elect pro-capitalism party
>private enterprise comes back
And this is why Communists do not have free elections.
>>74976024
If anything, Putin working to restore Russia's influence in the world, not the Soviet Union. He is not supporting communism, as well as majority of Russians, but there are a lot of gommies still alive in Russia. He don't want to antagonize them too much as fucking pussy he is.
I don't think Russians miss the commie part, I think they miss the part were Russia was still big and powerful and the nostalgia for that tends to warp some things. I guess this would explain Putin's popularity, hes managed to regain some of that pride (Russian pride took quite a beating in the 90s) but he's still a traitorous shit. Anyone who leads the Kremlin but allows the Jewish oligarch rats to live would be a traitor.
My sister works at Harrods and tells me about how every now and then a rich Russian couple would come in, she would ask them where they're from and they would say Russia and that moved in the 90s, always fucking smiling about that. Scum of the Earth desu.
>>74979020
Democracy would have meant free market because the people wanted free market and those damn goods everyone had except them. Free market equated the end of the USSR, that's why they were so closed up until Gorbachev and the likes. USSR was extremely powerful. No foreign tampering had any effect on them, they collapsed from the inside because of what they were.
>You're equating communism too much with authoritarianism
As you may have studied, the communist state needs dictatorship as a phase to go through in order to establish communism. Marx theorized it: first, revolution, then seizure of the means of production, then dictatorship of the people in order to fight the enemies of the people and lay the ground for true communism.
>>74979243
>You are acting as if Soviet socialism is the only model, when in fact it's a very specific system.
USSR was, if you will, a canvas with socialist's hand painting on it. That's what i'm getting at.
>There doesn't need to be a vanguard party, there doesn't need to be a revolution.
Without vanguard, or however you choose to call core of the movement, there can be no socialism or any political movement for that matter. And without revolution means of production would stay where they are, nobody's going to share them with random dildos from the street.
Anyway, would you mind pointing out alternative models?
>The only thing the USSR taught us is that centralized authoritarian state socialism doesn't work.
Oh no, not just this, it also proven that without personal responsibility for own welfare people regress to niggerdom, stealing or neglecting socialistic property, neglecting to communicate and make decisions, and finally, willingness of "proletariat" to cash in their freedom, exchanging it for a cut of someone else's labor.
>>74979953
Dude machine so omnipotent that can stop to citizens from exchanging pack of potato for a bottle of milk in the private area of their houses WILL BAN freedom of speech, elections, and political dissidents (effectively). You can't create omnipotent demon and expecting that he would be tame and compliant. What will stop it from doing it? People's will? It was created to BREAK people's will to commit voluntary acts how do you expect it will not break your will to commit other acts?
>>74973188
>Brazil: A moderately leftist government is caught up in a corruption scandal, something that happens to both left and right wing governments all across the developing world.
Yes, and the parliament decided to kick them out in a democratic voting
>Venezuela: Was doing fine until sanctions, drought, and collapse of oil prices.
Doing politics with the backup of a cheap and abundant natural resource is easy, but when things start going not so well, you see the efectiveness of that regime
>South Africa: Was a clusterfuck before Mandela.
I am not going to comment because I dont know much about it
>Russia: Collapsed mainly because of corruption and the logistical difficulties of centrally managing national economy. Could have been solved by greater democratization to hold corrupt officials accountable and devolution of economic power to the individual republics.
Much better than the USSR, just ask Putin, Kasparov or any other politician how good the soviet union was
>China: Same situation as Russia.
China has transformed into the second world power in less than a decade, ask the chinese what they prefer: their poor lifes in the 90s or they new booming country
>Vietnam: They're doing quite well actually.
Thanks to foreign corporations, like China or like Spain did with Franco
>Cuba: Embargo and corruption without the democratic mechanisms to hold officials to account. Even so they have been consistently better off than their neighbors.
At least you said Embargo and not blockade, thanks. Just compare Cuba to the surrounding neighbours and see the difference, it might only be better than Haiti and Jamaica. All the rest are fucking better: Bahamas, Cayman Islands, US Virgin Islands, Dominican Republic, USA, Puerto Rico, British Virgin islands, Turks and Caicos Islands...
Maybe I'm being biased and I'm preemptively sorry for that, but I believe that that the major difference between pre and post disillusion of the USSR is that back the Russia was still poor, but it was respected and feared, and after the fall - they had lost their sense of national pride alongside jobs, careers and so on. Alcoholism was rampant, the country was ravaged by privatization due to really bad leadership from Yeltsin and is not finally trying to get back on it's feet slowly.
>>74973322
>free
Just stop using this word, nothing is free from the time you pay taxes
Also, education != adoctrination
More Than Half of Russians Want New Soviet State - Poll
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/more-than-half-of-russians-want-new-soviet-state---poll/566745.html
Brezhnev Tops List of Most Popular 20th-Century Moscow Rulers
http://blogs.wsj.com/emergingeurope/2013/05/22/brezhnev-tops-list-of-most-popular-20th-century-moscow-rulers/
Former Soviet Countries See More Harm From Breakup
http://www.gallup.com/poll/166538/former-soviet-countries-harm-breakup.aspx
What I dont understand is how the USSR had a growing population during WW2 and pre-WW2. A lot of people say starvation was a huge problem in the USSR but obviously not if their population was unmatched by any other country in that time period.
>>74972126
No man, communism is fucking awful. You should go to my country and live for 3 years
>>74980903
Burgerfat, look at Africa right now
>Starving countries left and right
>Breeding like rabbits
Proof that slav is nigger
>>74980829
>Former Soviet Countries See More Harm From Breakup
But none of their state heads will agree to be appointed or removed from their positions by Kremlin again.
>>74980665
SA was a world power before Mandela, was destroyed by disinvestment because of muh poor apartheid nigger rethoric tampering from the world powers and ended up a shithole today with a lot of potential if only it was managed by competent people.
>>74980903
There are some wild theories about that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Census_%281937%29
>The census results were destroyed and its organizers were sent to the Gulag as saboteurs because the census showed much lower population figures than anticipated.
Of course, one can believe that foreign intelligence agencies did conduct a campaign to fake census results to accomplish some mysterious goal.
>>74981012
Which is so silly.
I distinctly remember, after the fall of Ceausescu and Iliescu being granted power. The gommie fuck actually declared for the people that the first phone call he received was from the Kremlin congratulating him on his appointment
>>74980903
Easy, abortion and contraception was banned and nobody had anything to do with spare time other than to fuck. Population would have been much higher without it though.
>>74980665
>Much better than the USSR, just ask Putin
Putin calls collapse of Soviet Union ‘catastrophe’
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2005/apr/26/20050426-120658-5687r/?page=all
>>74981187
You missed out a word, geopolitical.
>>74980062
We're still far from that.
>>74980769
Russians were alcoholics during the USSR too, so much so that Gorby tried to ban alcohol.
Drinking was one of the only things you could do in that depressing shithole that was the USSR, seeing as their lives were so devoid of meaning otherwise.
Nowadays Russians have CS:GO.
>>74981007
top kek, im crying of laughter.
>proof that slav is nigger
>>74981239
>Nowadays Russians have CS:GO.
kek
True, they were alcoholics before too - but alongside the other factors the country went to the bin real fast when the USSR got dismantled.
Either you like or dislike current Russia, I think it's on a right path for getting back on it's feet.. objectively speaking.
>>74981147
Not it is not. It is much better to be the king in your own little country than lackey in the huge empire.
>>74973188
>>South Africa
>Was a clusterfuck before Mandela.
Literally incorrect. The country was 100x better before that retard got in.
>>74981147
Not from the point of the view of a ruler. Why would you want to serve an Emperor when you can a King in your own right?
>>74981239
Russians Drinking Themselves To Extinction
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4uGgDWBT3I
>>74981235
Are we really far? We might not be "there" but we are defenitely not far.
Automatic internet communication scanning for specific terms is already employed.
More interestingly: Faceberg and Jewgle, both private companies that don't answer to law or any moral concept of "freedom of speech", hold quite a monopoly on communicatins and information, self-admittely giving more visibility in their system to content that suits "their aims".
>>74981453
From a nationalistic point, it was a lie to the people and he should be hanged for it alongside his other crimes.
alas that wouldn't bring our infrastructure back and neither will it undo the years of neglect.
There's no right side of history. Everything is subjective
>>74972126
It's a dream system that can't work because people need authority to hold structures of society.
Ultimately one group or another will sieze control or have greater influence than others.
>>74981220
What are you talking about?. I copied the name of the article.
>>74981627
I'd like to visit romania, are the women as hot as they appear on TV?
>>74981382
>but alongside the other factors the country went to the bin real fast when the USSR got dismantled.
Yep. I maybe wrong on this, but that's because there wasn't a well-managed transition to a capitalist nation-state led from the top. Gorbachev didn't want to give up communism, just wanted to make the USSR more competitive when he introduced glasnost and perestroika, and things began to spiral out of control from there, people criticised the regime, refused to show up for work etc.
So the whole thing massively destabilised all the countries in the USSR, and thus resulted in the initial decline in living standards etc.
I think Russia's top priorities at the moment are to develop a modern and functional economy (not based entirely off of gas and oil) and prevent more encroachment from the west such as in Ukraine. Geo-politically I think Moscow is looking to break the stranglehold that the west has it in.
>>74981756
Article is sensationalist. Putin actually said it was a geopolitical catastrophe, which has a different meaning.
>>74975621
Hey Russo brother, what is the overall opinion on Putin in Russia? Do you view him as another politician or a corrupt degen?
People mostly think he's corrupt here in US
>pic unrelated
>>74972126
In my experience, the only ones that are openly pro-commie are scrawny upper-middle class white kids who hear about it through their jewish college professors. Also worth mentioning that they're all fucking 19.
>>74981594
Yes, but so what?
Ways to counteract that also exist.
I agree with you there is danger, but it's not so near as you think. Besides, globalist cabal you speak of (mainly concentrated in USA) is slowly losing ground.
You really shouldn't assume people in power are always so Machiavellian. They are still humans.
Plenty of those old commies seriously believed communism was just around the corner for example.
>>74981832
"Mikhail Gorbachev, the final leader of the Soviet Union, who is disliked by 66% of the polled and liked by only 22%. He’s seen by many Russians as a traitor who destroyed and sold a great country."
http://blogs.wsj.com/emergingeurope/2013/05/22/brezhnev-tops-list-of-most-popular-20th-century-moscow-rulers/
>>74981994
>Plenty of those old commies seriously believed communism was just around the corner for example.
Gorbachev was one of these retards. Nothing is worse than a true believer to be honest. Fucking traitor and retard.
>>74981901
Please explain the difference.
>>74981553
This is 2008 though. Since 2013 drinking on the street is misdemeanour.
>>74982089
As if to prove your point:
>>74982131
Why is he a traitor, Ruskie? Because he allowed the break-up of the USSR?
>>74981994
>globalist cabal you speak of (mainly concentrated in USA) is slowly losing ground.
Where? To what?
Russia is shit. Communism is shit. God bless America.
t. russian
>>74982131
I have some sympathy for them. I do agree Soviet-style socialism is retarded.
But communism is a powerful drug.
>>74982145
If you need to be spoon-fed to such an extent, you really shouldn't discuss politics.
>>74981759
Yup, I'd say they are... maybe i'm biased I don't know..
>I think Russia's top priorities at the moment are to develop a modern and functional economy (not based entirely off of gas and oil) and prevent more encroachment from the west such as in Ukraine. Geo-politically I think Moscow is looking to break the stranglehold that the west has it in.
I completely agree :)
>>74982145
It means that it was a catastrophe because the US became hegemony and could do whatever it wanted, and that Russia was powerless to challenge it. It is entirely about foreign policy.
>>74982244
He gave away our empire millions died for and let America walk all over us and he made lots of stupid promises with America that it should have been obvious the Americans would never keep. How is this not treason?
>>74982372
Yeah, nothing is worse than truly believing something to an uncritical level.
>>74982264
Even in their home country m8. Look at support for Trump and Bernie.
Look at the rise of right in Europe.
>>74982473
>He gave away our empire millions died for and let America walk all over us and he made lots of stupid promises with America that it should have been obvious the Americans would never keep. How is this not treason?
Sounds like it to me. Peter Hitchens (attached pic), who was a journalist in Moscow at the dissolution of the USSR says that there's an impression amongst Russians that Gorbachev did a deal with the USA where Russia would grant independence to countries such as Belarus and Ukraine in return for no more American antagonism, is this accurate?
>>74982473
People are often like that. Even if they aren't religious in classical sense, they adopt another religion. Communism was a religion. Marx and Lenin were literally prophets of sort.
>>74982473
>How is this not treason?
He literally did nothing wrong according to soviet laws. He could be traitor only if these laws were treacherous.
>>74972126
The fact that people are running away from Cuba to USA shows whic one is superior
>>74982723
The laws were treacherous, simple as that and so was the Communist party which made them.
>>74982696
The deal was on expansion of NATO, also Germany was supposed to become neutral and things like that. Gorbachev did not think the USSR would collapse with all the Republics declaring independence so he never made a deal on this. His office effectively evaporated from underneath him.
>>74982720
Definitely.
The Soviet Union after the death of Lenin was a degenerated workers' state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerated_workers'_state
>>74982696
>where Russia would grant independence to countries such as Belarus and Ukraine in return for no more American antagonism
It is not up to him to decide. With or without his agreement USSR was gone. Kremlin was powerless to hold republics. He was literally bidding fake money against fake US promises.
>>74983048
Trotskyists get ice picks.
>>74982990
Thank you.
>>74983079
And what were these US promises in your view?
>>74983048
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kronstadt_rebellion
>>74982990
>The deal was on expansion of NATO, also Germany was supposed to become neutral and things like that.
Any sauce on this?
>>74983081
The Workers’ State, Thermidor and Bonapartism (February 1935)
https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1935/02/ws-therm-bon.htm
>>74972126
It destroyed my country. Be careful with the Castros.
>>74983198
NATO expansion and full abolishing of sanctions.
>>74983253
“I from the very start called it a great mistake. It was certainly a violation of the spirit of those declarations and assurances that we were given in 1990.” - Gorbachev on NATO expansion
>>74983397
Trotsky and Lenin were the same as Stalin with different foreign policy approach. Trotsky just got mad because Stalin was the one in power.
>>74983498
This is NATO expansion into the Eastern Bloc and former Soviet republics, e.g. Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia?
Why would he agree to this? NATO's only purpose is as a buffer to Russia, why would he allow it closer to Russia's frontiers?
>>74982145
Putin has said elsewhere the main problem with the fall of the USSR wasn't the loss of communism, but that the rapid creation of independent nations with wrong borders neighboring Russia. The Soviets gerrymandered retarded districts, directly resulting in problems such as the Donbass and Crimea being in Ukraine, Nagorno-Karabakh, that retarded-looking Uzbek-Tajik border that causes the occasional flare up, etc.
>>74972857
>after the fall
Not even during the country, but at the end of it, so make your opinion more clear
>>74982497
>Bernie
>against the cabal
>not being the final nail in the total state dependance coffin for the masses
>Right in Europe
Get full repressions from the state, with goyim being mindfucked to reject their ideas from ever lower ages. Valiant fight but not certain to even survive.
>Trump
Lets see what happens when he takes office. The butthurt from establishment has defenitely been a good sign.
>>74982990
>rejection of "The Party was always right"
What is this heresy I am seeing.
Just add "Deporting and shooting X - bad. Letting X mind their own business as long as they pay taxes, remain loyal and supply the conscript quota - good" and your eternal enemies might just start to get along with you.
>>74983048
>The Soviet Union after the death of Lenin was a degenerated workers' state.
The 100% communism idea died even before Lenin was dead, they had to introduce the NEP in his time, after the edgy, government official bombing, teenagers had to admit that their ideas just don't work.
After Lenin died, Stalin gradually got rid of the true believer tards spouting their nonsense slogans and transformed the whole system into his personal map-painting session.
After Stalin - a private party for the elite while waiting for the country to go 9/11 into the limit wall of the expansive economic model.
>>74983521
>“I from the very start called it a great mistake. It was certainly a violation of the spirit of those declarations and assurances that we were given in 1990.” - Gorbachev on NATO expansion
Ehh... i was hoping to get more info on those negotiations, beside Gorby's frustrated recriminations. Without any documents he might as well tell everyone that Clinton offered to give him BJ, not just NATO non-expansion.
>>74983832
>The Soviets gerrymandered retarded districts, directly resulting in problems such as the Donbass and Crimea being in Ukraine
I give you Crimea, but Ukraine's east issues are bit more old and complex than commies' arbitrary border painting. Not to mention that the only times there were any major unrests post 1991 is any time industrial oligarches didn't get their way, which is 2004 elections and 2013 ruling party's moonwalking back to Russia.
>>74974721
by the way, my father worked in Estonia(he was estonian as well) in military, and knew, that central natioan bureau gave Estonia more money in their goverments capital to make them stay in country, so people could buy there lot more things from other countries, like Cola\Fanta and american Jeans
>>74983236
“sympathize with the rebels and still concede that the Bolsheviks were justified in subduing them” -Paul Avrich
https://books.google.com/books?id=ZP3_AwAAQBAJ&lpg=PA6&ots=T7lPySQgKj&dq=%E2%80%9Csympathize%20with%20the%20rebels%20and%20still%20concede%20that%20the%20Bolsheviks%20were%20justified%20in%20subduing%20them%E2%80%9D&pg=PA6#v=onepage&q=%E2%80%9Csympathize%20with%20the%20rebels%20and%20still%20concede%20that%20the%20Bolsheviks%20were%20justified%20in%20subduing%20them%E2%80%9D&f=false
>>74984805
>Ehh... i was hoping to get more info on those negotiations, beside Gorby's frustrated recriminations. Without any documents he might as well tell everyone that Clinton offered to give him BJ, not just NATO non-expansion.
Which is why I called him a retard. Everything he got was verbal promises. US was obviously going to break them or later governments would just not care what the US had said earlier on.
>>74984714
>"Deporting and shooting X - bad. Letting X mind their own business as long as they pay taxes, remain loyal and supply the conscript quota - good"
Wasn't this the pre-Gommie rule?
>>74984714
I'm talking about motivations of voters, not candidates themselves.
>Valiant fight but not certain to even survive.
They will certainly survive and prevail.
Remember this in 10 years.
This is a Trotskyist perspective of the 1921 rebellion.
http://www.icl-fi.org/english/esp/59/kronstadt.html
>>74976424
>Police could stop you in USSR and check passengers documents, if they are not your relatives you could be charged with crime (illegal taxing).
Was this to force people to use state run taxi service or public transit?
This is a Trotskyist perspective of the 1921 Kronstadt rebellion.
"on 10 January 1994, self-selected White Guard heir Boris Yeltsin, president of a now-capitalist Russia, placed his double-headed-eagle seal of approval on the Kronstadt revolt"
http://www.icl-fi.org/english/esp/59/kronstadt.html
>>74985700
it was about public transit, thats why now transport is very cheap (or was before crisis)
>>74985756
>>74985501
>>74984865
Nice reads but Kronstadt is just one of examples. Trotsky and Lenin were more than willing to use repressive methods to serve their goals.
90%+ of sailors of Baltic Fleet joined before 1917. Trotsky lied.
>>74972126
>So what's the deal with Communism? Russian Bros, do you guys like it?
>Communism
We never got this. So just theoretical knowledge about that
>>74972126
Communist party is the second most popular party here in Russia, so yes, we like it. But it's mostly nostalgic old people voting for them. My grandma (born in 1930s) loved it, she kept telling me stories of how great it was back in USSR. Younger generation doesn't like commies. Neither do I, fuck em.
>>74985026
>Wasn't this the pre-Gommie rule?
Yes it was.
pre-Gommie rule we had a quite passionate hatred for Germans actually for various historical reasons. Russia and Tsar were pretty cool guys. Nobody was butthurt when Stolypin offered free land in Siberia for volunteer settlers.
Then the civil war caused our fanatical efforts to border ourselves from that mess.
Culminating with just one year of the red sun in 1940 with "Hi. Where is the Waffen-SS recruitment office :D" following that.
Our current warm attitude towards each other could have been avoided even if Stalin had just kept to the base treaty and not forcing "revolution"(with the standard methods) through it.
>>74972126
Russia bros, what are your views on this video?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT2z0nrsQ8o
>>74986131
Imho, thread needed to be bout sicoalism, much better
>>74984528
whatever, we're still dependant from US :^)
>>74972222
Just fucking go to Sweden, its basically the cuck faggot version of communism: everyone is employed in shit government jobs, nobody is allowed to get rich, everyone is a faggot, all the women are femenists and Ahmed's are treated as demi-gods
>>74986131
>>74986290
>Muh actual existing Socialism.
>Muh progress to Gommunism.
Love this meme.
>>74986215
I see, well fuck Gommies.
>>74986343
Just like other countries depend on each other, cuz of global economics, not 'political' - wat is thread about
>>74986215
I just wanna say you're a pretty cool guy considering you're from butthurt belt.
>>74986403
btw, Communism had no real way, its just an utopic idea
>>74986600
I know.
>>74986260
As usual Lenin is painted as the good guy even though he started most of the horrible shit Stalin is known for. A Gorbachev was pretty much USSR's Bernie. Naive retard who thought he could make everyone happy and still keep the country running. As soon as he gave people some freedom, they ditched the Union and for some bizarre reason he didn't see it coming so it collapsed real hard.
Thread gone into russian arguing with each others cuz they live in different national parts of USSR and with differences in mentlity
>>74986728
Interesting.
What about its portrayals of Stalin and Putin?
>>74986753
What part is most supportive of communism? Siberia?
>>74986878
I don't know, they're just tough guys in the video. I guess they are.
