Let's have a capitalism thread. Pro capitalists please come in and discuss. Socialists are welcome too so we can debate on the pros and cons of both systems.
I'll start with an obvious advantage of capitalism over socialism, that of the right to private property. It is impossible to preserve the liberty of the individual without a claim to ones own possessions and there is no benefit to your work if you do not own the fruits of that work.
>>74776686
I'm a socialist. I want to debate you.
>>74776686
How can a nation create wealth under socialism without resorting to tyranny and the resentment of it's citizens?
>>74776883
okay let's start.
What base principles does socialism assume in it's system? What assumptions of human nature and social theory?
>>74776946
By having the government issue currency to people who create and manufacture resources.
>>74776968
>work for me for just enough money you need to survive and come work tomorrow again
>"voluntary exchange"
Both systems are garbage. But I feel capitalism is the way to go.
>>74777066
But then the government has complete and total leverage over what gets funded and what does not leading to tyranny.
In capitalism you can seek out private investors of many different walks of life and view points and whose project you are building does not serve the state but rather serves the purpose of creating wealth and value for society.
>>74777224
Start your own business then. People do it every day.
>>74777224
The evils of the capitalist society is that some people have a bigger cake.
The evil of communist shit is few hundred million dead.
>>74777308
>But then the government has complete and total leverage over what gets funded and what does not leading to tyranny.
Ok that's true. People should be able to start their own businesses but all major industries should be government controlled.
>In capitalism you can seek out private investors of many different walks of life and view points and whose project you are building does not serve the state but rather serves the purpose of creating wealth and value for society.
That really only benefits those who already have money. The rich can invest their money into more money but the poor man can't really because he doesn't have any.
>>74777385
The market is dominated by big corporations. Also start a business in what? Everything is already supplied at cheaper costs by big corporations.
>>74777224
>getting another job
>>74777224
In capitalism you are compensated for your work with the opportunity to create more wealth for yourself by becoming an entrepreneur and creating wealth for society.
In socialism you are not guaranteed any compensation for your work, you are simply expected to contribute to an imaginary "whole" or unified community that is actuality non existent and to make up for that non existent is enforced by the state, rendering "the whole" that everyone contributes to the state rather than society.
>>74777562
>cant find another job
>>74777516
You have to innovate and contribute to society in creative ways.
That's the entire ethos of capitalism, create value. If the market has been cornered and made totally efficient, create a new market.
There are tons of millionaire teenagers that have created phone apps everyone wants.
>>74777875
Except not everyone is a genius like that. In capitalism the common man is always a wage-slave.
The number one flaw of socialism is its lack of a price system by which to efficiently allocate resources. And market socialism is no answer because there cannot be a market for land or the means of production in socialism, and thus no price formation can occur, unless you want some bureaucrat to pull numbers from his ass a la the Soviet Union.
>>74777439
The poor can seek out investments and build a business over night. Most people who get rich quick are made that way through the investments of other rich individuals, all it takes is a good idea.
Creativity is rewarded in capitalism.
>>74778105
>build a business
Won't always work. Lots of risk is to that.
>Most people who get rich quick are made that way through the investments of other rich individuals, all it takes is a good idea.
That makes them richer at everyone elses suspense.
>>74777976
Yes, and that is a simple truth of life, Life is a competition and there will always be winners and losers. Masters and slaves. Someone always has to do the work. The difference is that in capitalism you are compensated for your work and can choose to work or not and who to work for with the opportunity to become more by starting your own business.
In socialism you are forced by violence to work and contribute to the state.
>>74778266
>Lots of risk is to that.
If fear governs your decision making you will always be poor and a "slave"
>>74778266
Everyone has self interest, you can force the destruction of the ego without killing the individual, in socialism however the only ones allowed self interest is the state.
Of course the investors want a return, they are taking a risk on their money.
>>74778331
>Yes, and that is a simple truth of life, Life is a competition and there will always be winners and losers. Masters and slaves. Someone always has to do the work. The difference is that in capitalism you are compensated for your work and can choose to work or not and who to work for with the opportunity to become more by starting your own business.
Actually in capitalism you have to work or starve
>In socialism you are forced by violence to work and contribute to the state
No if you don't work in socialism you still get food given to you by the government.
>>74778581
>Actually in nature you have to work or starve
fixed
>>74778266
I've been defending capitalism so far, can you explain your views on socialism and why you prefer it to capitalism? I'm afraid the only thing I know about capitalism is the abolition of private property which I think is insane. I can't imagine sitting at home and someone I don't know coming up to me a demanding by law to use my car and take my cloths.
>>74778542
>If fear governs your decision making you will always be poor and a "slave"
Then why not just gamble at a casino to make a ton of money?
>Everyone has self interest, you can force the destruction of the ego without killing the individual, in socialism however the only ones allowed self interest is the state.
In capitalism only the corporate master gets self interest
>Of course the investors want a return, they are taking a risk on their money.
So they are taking a risk on their money to screw everyone over.
the failure of socialism explained
>>74778672
>>74778581
Socialist cuck BTFO
>>74777875
The problem is that market cannot grow infinitely, rate of growth has it's limits as well, so "just create a business" isn't always viable solution. And you honestly cannot expect everyone to be some kind of grand visionary that is able to create entire new markets.
>>74778672
>Capitalism is Natural
Exactly why I don't like it.
>>74778789
I like the idea of nationalizing primary resources like oil or metal like in Nazi Germany. In Canada in Alberta the tar sands are owned by one rich company that makes billions and pays very little tax. I'd rather have huge industries like lumber and oil nationalized so the average Canadian doesn't have to pay as much in taxes, the industry's will give the government all the money it needs.
>>74778581
>Actually in capitalism you have to work or starve
That is true in all forms of life. One should work for their sustenance, anything else is a from of tyranny. However, capitalism creates so much wealth we can afford to feed our derelicts without their contribution to society.
Food stamps, food banks, missions, cheaper food stores.
No one starves in america or Europe who hasn't brought it on themselves.
In socialism they simply can't create enough wealth to feed their society.
>>74776686
Who made Adam Smith's dinner?
Neoliberalism is dead, btw.
>>74778946
How? I don't like nature.
>>74779014
>That is true in all forms of life. One should work for their sustenance, anything else is a from of tyranny. However, capitalism creates so much wealth we can afford to feed our derelicts without their contribution to society.
Actually before America was socialist people did starve.
>>74776686
Property can only exist through an authority, a state, to enforce that claim, whether it be the individual state or a national state.
The individual does not own property, they are only afforded more privileges and rights over it as opposed to fellow citizens, as well as the wills of public officials.
t. someone who thinks capitalism is a pretty good system
>>74778960
well luckily any profession requiring a college degree pays 60,000 or higher. and that's being very modest.
Yes it requires you take out loans for school but those loans assure you work and contribute to society rather than sit around all day masturbating and getting high.
>>74778977
nationalizing is entirely different that socialism.
>>74779055
If you don't work, you deserve to starve. Ignoring this fact of life is a fundamental problem with Socialism that no bearocrat barking out commands could ever fix.
>>74778808
>Then why not just gamble at a casino to make a ton of money?
Serious? Gambling doesn't reward good work or decisions. Something can be a risk without being equal to a gamble.
>In capitalism only the corporate master gets self interest
Idk I think it's in my best interest to make the best life I can, save money, ect.
>So they are taking a risk on their money to screw everyone over.
I don't get it. I don't see how investments inherently screw people over.
>>74779487
No. They are the same. It's making land public property or state property. Socialism is the means of production are owned by the state, that's nationalizing. It does work, evidence is in Chile and Nazi Germany when they nationalized steal.
>If you don't work, you deserve to starve. Ignoring this fact of life is a fundamental problem with Socialism that no bearocrat barking out commands could ever fix.
What if you have disabilities?
>>74779606
>Serious? Gambling doesn't reward good work or decisions. Something can be a risk without being equal to a gamble.
But even if you work hard at a business it's still a risk.
>Idk I think it's in my best interest to make the best life I can, save money, ect.
You can do that in socialism and have can accumulate more wealth because the corporate masters don't take it all.
>I don't get it. I don't see how investments inherently screw people over.
In true capitalism there is limited currency. If there is limited currency it means a rich person getting more is taking it away from someone else. Investing gives you more money which takes it away from someone else.
>>74779693
As I said, capitalism creates enough wealth that we can afford to pay and sustain our non-productive citizens. Which we do in reality via food stamps and other forms of welfare.
And to correct you, socialism is the abolishment of private property, which translates to state ownership.
>>74779966
>As I said, capitalism creates enough wealth that we can afford to pay and sustain our non-productive citizens. Which we do in reality via food stamps and other forms of welfare.
Food stamps are socialism
>And to correct you, socialism is the abolishment of private property, which translates to state ownership.
Marx said it just meant the means of production are owned by the people. You can still own a private house and car but what generates but the mills, the mines, and the factories are all government owned.
>>74779845
>You can do that in socialism and have can accumulate more wealth because the corporate masters don't take it all.
You can generate any wealth in socialism, all the wealth belongs to the state.
Exchange corporate master with socialist dictator.
The difference is that in capitalism there is incentive for the corporate master to reinvest his money into his business paying employees, and society to create more wealth for himself. While socialist dictators are preoccupied with hording the wealth to fulfill the mandate of there being no private property.
>>74777224
Yes frog, that is exactly what we call a voluntary arrangement, how can you not see that
>>74780191
>You can generate any wealth in socialism, all the wealth belongs to the state.
Exchange corporate master with socialist dictator.
No you still have wealth, you just don't own oil field, banks, and factories
>The difference is that in capitalism there is incentive for the corporate master to reinvest his money into his business paying employees, and society to create more wealth for himself. While socialist dictators are preoccupied with hording the wealth to fulfill the mandate of there being no private property.
Reinvesting is overal bad for the economy, it makes the rich richer which means less money for everyone else.
>>74779845
C'mon.
>You can do that in socialism and have can accumulate more wealth because the corporate masters don't take it all.
>Investing gives you more money which takes it away from someone else.
Also,
>corporate masters who are incentivized to reward my work
vs
>socialist state masters incentivized to take it.
>>74780390
C'mon. The rich own 90% of the money.
>>74780136
No single entity can govern that many business effectively and even then you leave the industries in the hands of the oh say capable government.
The government is good at tech development, war and enforcement, nothing else.
Food stamps may be socialist by your definition but they could not exist without the wealth generated by the larger capitalist system at hand.
As soon as the proletariat owns the means of production, they become brougesa (can't spell it) there will always be masters and slaves. socialism exasperates it, capitalism mitigates it
>>74780483
>not an argument
>>74777385
Middle and upper class people do it. Not the working class, who make up the vast majority of the population, and do have the necessary resources (capital, machinery) to overpower with those who hold power under capitalism.
>>74779048
>Neoliberalism is dead, btw.
It's dying, but capitalism will limp on for a little while longer yet. I think it has one last big crash left in store.
>>74780656
>the working class
Who gives a fuck about the menial plebes?
They're about to become obsolete via automation soon anyways.
>>74780483
yes because that money is invested in corporations and other endeavors all over the world.
Do you really think Bill gates or Donald trump sits on all his wealth like uncle scrooge? No, it's all invested and working in businesses paying and employing people all over the world.
>>74780513
>No single entity can govern that many business effectively and even then you leave the industries in the hands of the oh say capable government.
Government does a better job
>The government is good at tech development, war and enforcement, nothing else.
Even if thats true, it's better than a bunch of rich guys getting all the money
>Food stamps may be socialist by your definition but they could not exist without the wealth generated by the larger capitalist system at hand.
Socialism generates a lot more wealth than capitalism. Capitalism only generates it for the 1% and even then it's not as productive because so many people are unemployed
>As soon as the proletariat owns the means of production, they become brougesa (can't spell it) there will always be masters and slaves. socialism exasperates it, capitalism mitigates
Well if everyone becomes the bougwazee or however you spell it then there is no problem because no one is being exploited.
>>74780815
>Do you really think Bill gates or Donald trump sits on all his wealth like uncle scrooge? No, it's all invested and working in businesses paying and employing people all over the world.
Exactly, investing money is bad for the economy in the long run.
>>74780848
Don't let petty jealousy destroy society and appoint a dictator who uses lethal force to keep his un-fair system working.
Here's some educational material to better understand teh reality of captialism and "wealth inequality"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5L-riaIJjI
>i'm sorry if my image triggers you, I know how sensitive socialists are to money and having it.
>>74780773
Automation will eliminate work for everyone, bougie. Your beloved capitalism created the working class, relies on the working class, and will be abolished by the working class.
>>74781223
>Don't let petty jealousy destroy society and appoint a dictator who uses lethal force to keep his un-fair system working.
It's not really jealousy (well maybe sub-conscienceless) but it's more wasteful. The rich own 90% of the money, imagine if that was invested in our benefit advancing science and building stuff for us. If the government controlled the means of production we would have to pay 0 taxes because that would be enough to generate money for the country. Another thing that should be nationalized is banks.
>>74781227
>implying
The working class will either be totally eliminated, or they will be relegated to breads and circuses for the entertainment of the upper classes.
So it seems that the modern left's argument boils down to
"coooorperations maaan"
Well, a corporation is a form of monopoly which requires state backing to survive, that is why you didn't see corporations emerging before after Woodrow Willson got to power and started to centralise the government through the federal/national banking system.
So the first step to diminish the corporations will be to vote away the fed, we could have gotten a long way now had Ron Paul been elected in 2012 but then the left was obviously way too busy voting for more government through Obama which only grows the corporations
>>74780848
You are under the false impression that because your socialist dictator called his wealth he hordes form you "everyones" that it is actually yours. In reality socialist countries have always had so little to go around that many starved and even more were sent to concentration camps for not following the party line.
Even china is clinging to it's communist power mongering roots.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHcTKWiZ8sI
What happens to humans in a capitalist market when the employment requirements reach super-human levels?
>>74781607
That is a very good question.
In the end the laws of nature and the mandate of war have one simple decree: Adapt or die.
You can't fight nature. Nature is what we are, what we do, it is the universal law everything follows.
If the machines are more perfect and decide not to serve us, we will serve them, or die.
I believe that day is fast approaching.
>>74781223
>Don't let petty jealousy destroy society and appoint a dictator who uses lethal force to keep his un-fair system working.
It isn't about petty jealousy, it's about the velocity of money and stangant capital pools.
You should know better. Individuals holding large amounts of cash cannot and will not spend it as much as a decentralized spending base.
>>74781571
>modern left
This has always been the lefts argument. Teddy Roosevelt hated that corporations were getting bigger.
>Well, a corporation is a form of monopoly which requires state backing to survive, that is why you didn't see corporations emerging before after Woodrow Willson got to power and started to centralise the government through the federal/national banking system.
They did. Teddy Roosevelt saw them getting bigger under him and hated it.
>federal/national banking system.
If that was reformed we could have enough money to fund everything
>So the first step to diminish the corporations will be to vote away the fed
If the FED was gone we would have money for everyone.
>we could have gotten a long way now had Ron Paul been elected in 2012 but then the left was obviously way too busy voting for more government through Obama which only grows the corporations
Obvious it's the left that is anti-FED. Watch Zietgiest
>>74781587
Look at America in the 50s when it was very socialistic. They had 92% income tax and yet at that time everyone had lots and lots of wealth.
>>74781393
>The rich own 90% of the money, imagine if that was invested in our benefit advancing science and building stuff for us.
But that is exactly what that money is doing.
>>74781992
No actually. When rich invest the money goes right back into there hands taking it away from everyone else. If the government invested the government would get the money and give it back to us in the form of lowering out taxes.
>>74781945
your mistaking anything government related to be socialism, it's not. socialism is the abolishment of private property.
If you think corporation should be taxed more, lobby for it. But it simply makes no sens to tax those who generate wealth for your society.
It makes sense to tax the poor because it keeps them poor and working. Other wise they'd be out doing crime.
Crime is not a result of poverty, it's a result of human nature, which is inherently bad on the majority.
>>74777224
It is implicit in this example that the worker is better off employed than if he didn't work, otherwise he wouldn't VOLUNTARILY do it.
>>74781571
This, we are far more socialist now than ever before, it is inf act the reason for so much wealth inequality. Not that wealth inequality is necessarily a bad thing.
>>74776686
You appear to think there is one kind of Capitalism... there is not.
The American School of Economics turned the US into a superpower.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_School_(economics)
Neoliberalism has destoryed the US.
>>74782324
>your mistaking anything government related to be socialism, it's not. socialism is the abolishment of private property.
No. Socialism is anything controlled by the people aka democratic government
>If you think corporation should be taxed more, lobby for it. But it simply makes no sens to tax those who generate wealth for your society.
They generate wealth for themselves. In the 1950s corporations paid 90% tax, today they pay 2% tax. The national debt has skyrocketed.
>It makes sense to tax the poor because it keeps them poor and working. Other wise they'd be out doing crime.
Then how the hell are they suppose to stop being poor if they are being taxed so much?
>>74782537
Hamilton was one of the first neocons. Are you implying he did good for the U.S
Capitalism has afforded us the comfort of some socialist programs. What we can't forget is that Capitalism is the only decent way to integrate puddles of socialism, while socialism creates nothing.
>>74782543
>Then how the hell are they suppose to stop being poor if they are being taxed so much?
Start a business, businesses are taxed far less than private individuals.
>>74782686
>Hamilton...
>Neocon...
You're a silly cunt.
>>74782324
> socialism is the abolishment of private property.
No it isn't, and you don't get to make your own definitions. Socialism is when the workers own the means of production.
> But it simply makes no sens to tax those who generate wealth for your society.
Who should be taxed then? It makes perfect sense to tax those with the greatest wealth, because they can afford to take the hit more than the poorer folks.
> Crime is not a result of poverty, it's a result of human nature, which is inherently bad on the majority.
Anyone who has ever stolen food is evidence against this. Human nature is only to harm other when absolutely necessary. it is non-human nature that does not share human values, and as such, allows humans to suffer.
>>74782741
Not everyone can start a business. You need starting money and it's very hard to compete against multinational corporations.
Also in 1900 90% of Americans were self employed. Today about 5% are, do you think 85% of people just became lazy, or do you think the rich are hogging the money.
>>74782883
>hogging
Hi friend. It seems you don't understand basic economics. Hop on over to >>>/biz/ and lurk there for a bit. Alternatively, you can head over to >>>/sci/ and read their sticky, they have some nice basic economics textbooks you can read.
>>74782804
Ron Paul wrote a big document on this. Hamilton started the FED
>>74782848
>No it isn't, and you don't get to make your own definitions.
"In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property."
That's straight form the communist manifesto.
Perhaps you should learn your ideology more completely before debating it.
>>74783083
Sir you don't understand basic economics.
>>74783107
>>74782804
Not the FED but the central bank at the time.
>>74783109
> Perhaps you should learn your ideology more completely before debating it.
I never said shit about Communism.
>>74783109
Dude.
Communists want to abolish the State.
>>74782848
>Human nature is only to harm other when absolutely necessary.
You have a very naive outlook on humanity.
>>74783109
>communist
>socialist
Please learn the difference. Communism is the opposite of socialism.
>>74777402
Exactly!
>>74783323
So, almost as much as the American Civil war, which was almost entirely due to a crisis of capitalism?
>>74783239
Without the state there is no private property, laws, or security. All claims of equality go out the window without enforcement, the law of the jungle would reign.
>>74783236
Socialism is another name for communism.
>>74783323
You personally are the problem.
>>74783323
Capitalism kills more because due to it 22 thousand kids die in africa everyday.
>>74783421
> Socialism is another name for communism.
ugh, no it isn't. Get your McCarthy era bullshit out of here
>>74783508
>22 thousand kids die in africa everyday.
Those are dictatorships, though.
>>74783450
Your flag betrays you, my man.
>>74783413
It was more of a human rights issue than a capital crisis.
>>74783578
Socialism is literally meant to guide the people towards communism without having a worldwide, violent communist revolution.
The end goal of Socialism is always communism.
>>74780926
Gonna have to ask why on this one. Investment means an expansion in production and wealth which inevitably helps everybody in the long run.
>>74783578
>communism is a more distributed version of socialism
Whoop-de-fucking-doo. That doesn't fix any of the fatal flaws.
>>74783508
22 thousand kids in africa are not the responsibility of capitalism.
You're suffering form an "superman resentment" complex. It's where when you see someone or some entity being successful you assume it is under the obligation to solve everyone else problems for them.
I see it a lot in the naive and in socialists and most of the left wing.
you are hopelessly wrong.
>>74783508
Capitalism is somehow the cause of deaths of kids in African? mkay
>>74783638
>Those are dictatorships, though.
Capitalist dictatorships.
>>74783675
The end goal of capitalism is always Fascism.
>>74783702
Because under true free market capitalism there is limited currency, usually based off gold. So if a rich person invests and gets richer than means there is less gold for other people. Unless the government continues to print money and give it to people from the bottom of the social chain the rich will always get richer.
>>74783907
>Capitalist dictatorships.
That's an oxymoron, though.. like anarcho-communism is.
The two terms do not go together.
>>74783907
>The end goal of capitalism is always Fascism.
But fascism is literally the merging of private corporations with the state, which by your definition is socialism.
You do know the nazis were national socialists right? which is fascism.
>>74783722
Sure
>>74783764
Except the reason they can't feed themselves is due to capitalism. Before European contact Africans could feed themselves, now they can't for one reason. Multinational corporatiosn outcompete local traders so they go bankrupt.
>>74783578
picture_for_ants.jpg
>>74776686
Obligatory reading ITT
>>74783907
>Because under true free market capitalism there is limited currency, usually based off gold. So if a rich person invests and gets richer than means there is less gold for other people. Unless the government continues to print money and give it to people from the bottom of the social chain the rich will always get richer.
I'm afraid you are ignorant of the concept of "Cash flow" where one mans income is another mans wage.
the economy is not a zero sum game, money is always moving.
>>74784143
>Before European contact Africans could feed themselves, now they can't for one reason.
What the fuck makes you think they could feed themselves before European contact? Tribal warfare existed on a massive scale because they were nomadic and needed to move for food.
>>74784072
How? Communism is a stateless society. Capitalism is a state-run fascist society. All capitalist countries are dictatorships.
>>74784101
Except the EU is socialist and not on a road to communism, in fact they banned communism.
>>74776686
socialists believe in private property too. it's the means of production that's a main issue.
obviously i think you should keep your own bed and toothbrush for hygienic reasons. i don't want your inflatable free trade barbecue from china
>>74784286
>All capitalist countries are dictatorships.
The ruse cruise ends here. Have a sexy black woman instead.
God bless.
>>74784143
>Before European contact Africans could feed themselves, now they can't for one reason
They had 20 year lifespans and numbered a couple thousand of hunter gatherers. European technology and capitalism allowed them to move beyond the Stone Age. (kicking and screaming, against their will)
>>74783907
And what if you invest in more gold mining?
Besides, I don't buy your claim that "true capitalism" relies on Gold-backed currency. If we all agree that a piece of paper has value, we trade it based off of the supply and demand of that paper.
Of course, printing, government inflationary policy and everything else is a completely separate issue from this.
>>74784143
>Before European contact Africans could feed themselves,
I don't proclaim to be an expert in african history but I was under the impression their land has never been good for growing crops and they could barely feed their tribes and nations before their population explosion.
>>74784216
How many fucks do you think I give?
>>74784252
What do you mean it's not a zero sum game? There is limited money on earth it can be counted. Unless of course you print more via QE or Government borrowing.
>>74784256
Well I'm not denying they were very primitive. But they could feed themselves. Now they are starving.
>>74784143
>>74784447
There were only a few kingdoms here and there that could be considered "contemporary" , and even they were eclipsed well before the Europeans came. Literally wewuz historical revisionism.
>>74784465
>Now they are starving.
Only because we showed them what agriculture was and they were too fucking stupid to actually do it.
Now they've forgotten their roots, but they're still too dumb to do the whole farming thing. They live on gibsmes from capitalist countries.
>>74784216
Very true even in this thread it would apply
>>74784333
>ruse cruise
Just get the hell out of here troll
>>74784374
But they had jobs and had better lives than today.
>>74784396
Gold is limited.
>Besides, I don't buy your claim that "true capitalism" relies on Gold-backed currency. If we all agree that a piece of paper has value, we trade it based off of the supply and demand of that paper.
Same argument, still limited amount.
>>74784701
I'm not trolling. You are.
>>74784658
Didn't mean to change the converation to africanism. But wouldn't it make sense they will all go out of business if we blood their markets with cheap stuff?
>>74784465
>What do you mean it's not a zero sum game?
Are you familiar with the concept of "cash flow"?
It's where the money I make is used to pay other peoples wages
>>74784775
You're the one spamming racist stuff instead of actually talking about capitalist affect on African.
>>74784701
>Same argument, still limited amount.
But if there's a limited amount of things, then how will communism and socialism work? Things aren't infinitely divisible, after all. If you eat a piece of cake, you have deprived another man of it. You are basically starving him.
>>74784701
>Gold is limited
Yeah but we won't exhaust supplies until we reach space, at which point we'll mine it from asteroids and so on.
If the gold supply runs out, then something else of value will replace it as currency-backing. Gold is not intrinsically special, it is just historically what we have chosen as a measure of wealth.
>>74783764
What is this movie?
It's good?
>>74784815
it's called competition and it creates the most efficient and best markets and wealth for society.
now they can by everything for cheap, they should be happy.
>>74784701
>But they had jobs and had better lives than today.
>Nomadic Hunter Gatherers
>Better lives
You revealed your hand too soon, leaf.
>>74784286
No
They MIGHT have persuaded people to stop CALLING it communism. They have a very comfy relationship with the megacorps and manipulate society to give them what they want.
>>74784815
>But wouldn't it make sense they will all go out of business if we blood their markets with cheap stuff?
What markets? The GDP per capita in Africa is $2,300. That's also massively skewed up by places like South Africa and Egypt. The GDP per Capita in the US is $53,000.
>>74784827
Except there's a bit of a problem. The cash is flowing more into the pockets of wealthy people than out. Investing just sets that back but in the long run they are getting more. Corporations make more money than they pay the employees. Eventually it will all dry up.
>>74784856
>racist stuff
Would a racist have this much porn of sexy negresses?
I thought not.
>>74785012
Sorry but you're being banned for trolling. Enjoy it.
>>74776686
>The market must be free! It's better for everyone!
Stop falling for this meme. Yes a free market benefits everyone, but only when everyone has an equal opportunity to compete. A nation cannot just start with a free market. There has to be infant industry production and rewards for exporting a certain amount of product to other countries and world markets. These rewards make firms compete for the export subsidies. This coupled with a government that is honest in its trade policies and one that focuses on the development of the "little guys" in business leads to a better market.
>>74785046
Seek the light of education
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5L-riaIJjI
don't fester in the dark of ignorance and resentment.
europe belongs to the europeans (unrelated)
>>74784958
They can't buy it tho because they have no jobs.
>>74784896
Exactly. Wealth is not limited, but paper money is. I don't want wealth, I want money.
>>74785035
Well I mean they can't really trade with eachother
>>74785289
Seek education. don't be ignorant
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb_GtbI9UNM
>>74785296
Why? Money has no value to you except for what other things you can buy with it.
You'd probably be a lot happier with a house and 500,000 in the bank than living in a cardboard box with 1m.
>>74785296
>They can't buy it tho because they have no jobs.
Then they need to create jobs for themselves.
>>74785474
Except in order to get the wealth I need money. I can't do that if it's all owned by goldberg because he took his money and loaned it out and got more, keeped doing that until he owns 90% of the money and we're left fighting for the scraps.
Also you say inequality isn't that bad. But then why is the middle class shrinking.
>>74785488
They can't just magically make a job appear out of nowhere.
>>74785441
Just because the stock market fluctuated in china does not mean capitalism is failing in china. If anything the further disaster of them trying to control the stock market and penalizing people with criminal accusations for criticizing the government is a failing of socialism.
Also I posted a video from an educational website, you posted a video of some angsty teenager weeb
>>74785361
They didn't before, either.
>>74785692
That's actually exactly how you do it.
It's amazing the things you are capable of when you stop complaining that everyone else is the problem.
>>74785708
>Just because the stock market fluctuated in china does not mean capitalism is failing in china. If anything the further disaster of them trying to control the stock market and penalizing people with criminal accusations for criticizing the government is a failing of socialism.
Except 2008, great depression, bank panics. All signs capitalism destroying itself
>Also I posted a video from an educational website, you posted a video of some angsty teenager weeb
He's 30.
>>74785790
No they can't. CAn you magically create a job? When you stop blaming yourself for everything then you can work on how to fix things.
>>74785645
Because the gubnment has placed such high levels of regulations on businesses that the costs of starting something new can only be covered by Goldberg instead of t. average burger. This includes restrictions, wage and labor laws, and permits/other shit.
You can't just go sell hot dogs on the corner anymore, you have to get six gorillion permits and be certified by the national hot dog association.
>>74785955
Thats actually a really good point. I will look up a counter argument and come back
>>74785833
>He's 30.
He has the air of a teenager.
>>74785833
>Except 2008, great depression, bank panics. All signs capitalism destroying itself
Actually those are all failures of the banking system, not of capitalism. All of which can be resolved with more government regulation which I'm sure you think is a sign of socialism success since you wrongly associate anything government related to be socialism.
>>74779105
Do you even know what the word socialism means? Fucking leaf
If you want to compare numbers of easily preventable deaths we can do that. Starving was still in fact difficult pre 1900 in the USA mainly because clergy. Relief efforts are in fact voluntary organizations in modern times. We don't need the states help.
>>74785955
>>74786028
I agree that over regulation is bad however it is not the fault of capitalism, but of government overreach.
>>74785897
>CAn you magically create a job? When you stop blaming yourself for everything then you can work on how to fix things.
Yes I can magically create a job, and in fact that is how I sustain myself, I am self employed and an entrepreneur.
A real man takes responsibility, he questions himself before he questions his environment. he is self sufficient and proud.
Children blame their parents when they get in trouble for doing wrong, or they blame their teacher for failing a class.
most people do this, and most people fail at life.
>>74786028
Another interesting thing you want to think about is the necessity of regulation. The "reason" I'm not allowed to sell hot dogs to five year olds on the street is because I might have poisoned them or otherwise using unsafe meat or whatever.
Rothbard had a good point, however, that fuck ups still happen (look at food poisoning epidemics in the past decade), but that nobody is held responsible. If business owners were financially responsible for any damage they caused on other individuals, they would take their customers' interests into account. A good example would be: If a building collapses, those who constructed that building should be tried for manslaughter of everybody who died in the building. Naturally, construction companies will regulate themselves properly to avoid this.
Reality is a lot more nuanced than that, but something to think about at least.
>>74785897
“Yesterday I was clever, so I wanted to change the world. Today I am wise, so I am changing myself.”
>>74786049
>bank panics
That was before the FED
>>74786160
>pre-1900
Exactly, before America was socialist
>>74786215
Except free-marketism has a lot of problems
>>74786253
>Yes I can magically create a job, and in fact that is how I sustain myself, I am self employed and an entrepreneur.
Africans don't have the starting money for that, and even if they did they couldn't compete with the goods dumped in their economy
>A real man takes responsibility, he questions himself before he questions his environment. he is self sufficient and proud.
A depressed person, a person with no esteem, or a nutbar blames himself. A real man looks where his problem is coming from and tries to eliminate it. If it's corporations he lobbys for more taxes on the regulation to stifle their growth. Blaming yourself is a sign of depression.
>>74786267
I read that Ayn Rand article too. It's a good point but I wouldn't feel comfortable eating a hotdog made by some sketchy guy. Remember before in the 1800s people died of food poisoning all the time.
>>74786795
What I relayed in my post was actually from Rothbard's Power and Market. Something like that.
Extremely interesting read. I think its a bit too theoretical and implausible, but still pretty eye opening on how government fucks things up even when they look good.
>>74786920
Oh it was from Rothbard? Funny how him and Ayn Rand are so similar yet they hated eachother in real life for some reason.
>>74786795
>>74786920
>>74787060
Here it is, if you're interested:
https://mises.org/library/power-and-market-government-and-economy
Spoiler, Rothbard was kind of a nut. I don't think any respectable economist takes him 100 percent seriously, he was pure AnCap. Lots of good points though.
>>74785897
Fucking moron. Yeah you can. If you weren't a lazy commie you would know what the fuck demand is. Do people like wooden toothbrushes? How much are they willing to pay? Can I offset my costs of production in order to make a profit so I can eat. Do I know how to make wooden toothbrushes? Why would they choose my toothbrush over another? Do I need help in the future? Will I have to hire more staff and then split my profits further? Is it cost efficient or not?
Get a job faggot
>>74787125
I never understood AnCap. Who would run the courts? Corporations?
>>74777066
So...by paying people based on how productive they are.
>>74787206
AnCap is a joke
>>74777516
You say this like cheapness is the only thing that is competitive to a market with infinite types of goods and services.
Here is the fun thing, even if the markets were dominated by huge corporations, without barriers to entry it doesn't really matter. Why? Because the future of a market with many buyers and sellers is that every product becomes niche'.
>>74786795
America wasn't socialist pre 1900 you dense retard. In what ways was it socialist? Do you have any examples and a steady definition of socialism to compare it to. You're just spouting off all these claims without any evidence to back it up
>>74787170
I actually am trying since Trudeau was a douche and cut my disability.
>>74787206
Private individuals. Essentially (might be fuzzy here, been a while since I actually read what I linked you), you subscribe to a private court system and security force that protects your interests. Think about how there are different court systems for every country and state, and yet there aren't really any major issues with prosecuting criminals (well... It's as good as it gets).
Again, I can't explain it too well. I really recommend reading power and market. Just take it with a grain of salt. AnCap itself is probably as realistic as pure socialism (Not at all). I think minarchy is the way to go.
>>74787362
Yeah seems like it.
>>74787301
Sorta. It owns all the mines and factories and pays workers of those.
>>74787206
I'm not ancap but yes a firm would. Said firm is pressure to be unpartisan for arbitration for future business. I'm more on the side of Friedman
>>74787377
True but what business could I start
>>74787378
Public courts, public roads, public military. You're stupid. I also think they had public mines.
>>74777439
But thats what venture capitalists do. They provide seed money for a share of a business.
>>74787405
education is the key to success. learn something new everyday.
>>74787515
Couldn't it be biased and choose to prosecute people it doesn't like? And who would run the military? It could pay police to bring people to it and put them in prison for 100 years.
>>74787405
I can sympathize I do think government has a place to care for those with physical disadvantages to an extent. An ancap would point to armless or legless people are taken care of by their families but I support care for those who cannot help themselves. I don't think thats socialist however
>>74787628
>True but what business could I start
read this book, it's a great entry into thinking like an entrepreneur and a captialist.
>>74787663
True but there is no business I could start right now.
>>74787675
You gotta learn that companies don't care how much you know, they want to see your degree. Now a days only Ivy League degrees are worth a dam to employers.
>>74787709
Then people would choose to subscribe to another system that it deems more fair. There could be multiple courts and police forces for any particular jurisdiction.
>>74787628
I don't care. Really, that is the heart of things; produce value to exchange for other things of value.
If you do not want to participate in exchanges of value, you could theoretically only create goods/services for personal use. I suppose that's why I'd rather live in a free market system; socialism will attempt to gain value from me whether or not I consent.
>>74787779
Ok true but even if I did start a business I could never grow it into a big corporation where I have a nice house.
>>74787713
Well I can help myself I am doing it now but it's just harder. But you do have a good point for armless and legless.
>>74777224
If youre not confident in starting a business, gain experience and skills in your current jobs that will make you an asset to future employers.
Capitalism is a byproduct of your own effort. If youre willing to invest the effort, you will go far. If you wait tables and get angry at your lack of tips, the problem is most likely you.
>>74787628
Do you really honestly believe a national standing army, and courts are fucking socialist? Are you just trying to troll?
Roads i can vaguely agree with. People traveled by train before. Private train companies. Municipality maintained city roads. The interstate system is a defense project. I doubt public mines but even that is terrible
>>74787824
What if a big court that fooled people into joining then paid the military to go out and kill everyone else?
>>74787850
Well I don't really care what you think. There are no more businesses that can be created.
>>74787908
I wish you the best friend. I'd offer you a job if I was a leaf.
Remember I'm not anti government I'm just limited government
>>74787908
>Ok true but even if I did start a business I could never grow it into a big corporation where I have a nice house.
Okay, a few points right away
>Why not?
Also
>Corporation
>Owned by many
>Implying the average stakeholder has a substantial percentage of the wealth generated
>>74788076
>Well I don't really care what you think. There are no more businesses that can be created.
If you give up before you even start trying you'll never make money.
>>74788076
>Big Court
>Use of force
You mean a government?
Oh...
No but seriously, it is in a court or millitary force's best interest to act in the interests of the people, or else they lose funding. If something gets too big or starts being corrupted, people will choose to spend their money in a rival firm, or simply protect themselves.
>>74787965
>If youre not confident in starting a business, gain experience and skills in your current jobs that will make you an asset to future employers.
Employers don't care about what you know. They care about what your Ivy degree says you know
>Capitalism is a byproduct of your own effort. If youre willing to invest the effort, you will go far. If you wait tables and get angry at your lack of tips, the problem is most likely you.
Not true many people work 10 hours a day and make jack shit while rich dudes at the top like Billy Madison and Rockefeller make billions
>>74788003
You're trolling aren't you. Courts are owned by the people of the country.
>>74788076
>Well I don't really care what you think. There are no more businesses that can be created.
Alright, entrepreneurship is over. Everyone go home.
But really, are you serious? There are more businesses than have ever existed at the moment, and more are being created everyday. The pace of change is ridiculous.
>>74788155
>Okay, a few points right away
Because all the rich corporations have all the business. I could never get it.
>>74788220
I know some small business owners. My nextdoor neighbor is one. He is a Jew with Jewish values (works incredibly hard), great with money, always looking for a deal. Yet he's still middle class despite 30 years of business running. And he was one of the first in the business because he jumped in right when it was legalized
>>74788280
>But really, are you serious? There are more businesses than have ever existed at the moment, and more are being created everyday. The pace of change is ridiculous.
Not true at all. In 1900 90% of Americans were self employed. Now it's about 2%. You know now a days fortune 500 companies own everything.
>>74776686
Capitalism is ok for now I suppose.
Don't quote smith thought his book is a fucking meme.
>>74788742
>Falling for the Smith is a meme meme
Literally a genius of his time. Completely unprecedented thinking, as obvious as most of it seems today, and the few parts he got wrong.
>>74787779
>guy tells you how to get rich but actually gets rich by selling you a book
>>74788742
>ok for now
Are you serious. The economy is worse than it's ever been since the great depression. No one has jobs, big corps dominate everything.
>>74788918
glad you figured it out.
>>74778977
There is no certainity that a government run resource would be cheaper or better of the end user.
Also why shouldnt they make billions?
>>74789350
>There is no certainity that a government run resource would be cheaper or better of the end user.
Government is worse at it, but one thing is better, we get the money
>Also why shouldnt they make billions?
Because the money would be way better in the hands of all of us.
>>74788917
He's completely wrong on the nature of money and believes that monetary policy should be made by private institutions. That makes him a meme in my opinion.
>>74788952
Capitalism is not the core of the problem in my opinion. The control of the economic policies that should be designed to benefit everyone equally by private interests is.
>>74783413
>200 Million lives lost in the Civil War
Maybe the upcoming Second Civil War...
>>74789490
So like national socialism without the anti-antisemitism?
>>74789490
That's like saying benjamin Franklin was a meme because he fucked up the polarities on his charts. (if I'm remembering things correctly)
Again, while most of his stuff was wrong, nobody had EVER written such an in depth and insightful analysis of economic forces, or had attacked mercantilism so harshly. He is worthy of respect in the same way dalton is worthy for even thinking about the possibility of atoms without knowing their exact nature.
>>74789592
It can't happen soon enough.
>>74776686
>here is no benefit to your work if you do not own the fruits of that work.
Best argument AGAINST capitalism.
> private property
does not imply ownership of everything produced by these means.
Private property is the biggest fraud there is.
Do you really think you can own soemthing?
The land?
If not to the liking, the gov. will just walz it down under some pretence.
And without gov. still just the richer guy can take it from you.
> the liberty of the individual
Even economists acknowledge that possesion binds the individual, both metaphysically and economically.
I love all the talk about "muh personal liberty", when never they can explain what the hell it is defined by.
- Not a socialist myself, neither a libertarian, at most a communist, more Marxist. But eglegtic.
>>74783305
Socialism is the stage before you reach communism you silly leaf.
>>74785692
Because they're uneducated or because they don't have the will to succeed?
if the last two digits of my number are the same repeating digits communism is best
>>74789998
>tfw 1 off from quads
>>74776686
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU
>>74789991
Because the system won't let them. Also you can't just get an education without really rich parents.
>>74789916
It's where the people control production.
>>74778035
holy shit, you haven't understood anything in all those years...
>>74778105
No they can't, you won't get a credit if you're poor.
And the rich don't jump in.
Creativity is not rewarded.
>>74789656
Sure he did have some interesting ideas but I just think that he did more wrong than good by advocating letting banks print money.
>>74788553
That's because corporations are not considered self employment, you mongoloid.
If I decide to sell shares of KekMemes, then I am no longer self employed, I am an employee of KekMemes.
Fuck, it's almost always to your benefit to corportize anyway; I own three corporations right now that are literally just
>I need to reserve this name. I will make 1000 shares, I need 11 other shareholders who will get one while I get 989
Eitherway, enjoy being poor.
>>74776686
I'm not a capitalist or a socialist. I'm a primitivist.
I believe advanced society as a whole is destructive and opposed to human nature. We were happier when we lived in close-knit tribes, surrounded by people we'd trust with our lives - working together for survival.
Being alive in the 21st century in a nightmare.
How can you people praise capitalism ?
I mean , if at least you really had a chance to climb the soclail ladder by working hard, but it doesn't even work like that .
You just have some shit illusions and you will always be at the bottom while the 1% owns everything and make some laws voted to get even richer .
It's not like you guys are praising the people who voted in 1913 the FED private bank stuff and since you have to pay taxes and your debt is growing bigger and bigger while destroying nature for just a shit economic growth lol .
Can't wait for this system to crash and just live a simple life of hunting / gathering
>>74790143
You're the one who's poor. My parents had a really good career but they told me that it's different now a days and there isn't really many opportunities.
>>74790173
You sound like a faggot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhKla4MEstY
>>74784216
>let explain capitalism!
>explain market and exchange based economy
This is not what capitalism is.
Capitalism is basically capital => more capital, because property => profit and profit => property.
What people hate in capitalism isn't the rationality of the economy, the market and exchange, but the wealth inequality between who owns and who actually produces.
>>74789484
You get the money but with no accountability or knowledge to invest it.
And if those sands run dry, what then? Has your people owned business gained the experience or the know-how to find other resource or to establish new nodes?
Remember when racist africans kicked whites out of their countries but couldnt manage said farms and mines? Thats what youre gonna bring on yourself. Its like a chicken without a head.
>>74790173
As someone with Native American ancestry this sounds good actually.
>>74790236
>I do not want to take steps to create value or compete
>Why is capitalism so shit?
>>74790205
>How can you people praise capitalism ?
I mean , if at least you really had a chance to climb the soclail ladder by working hard, but it doesn't even work like that .
You just have some shit illusions and you will always be at the bottom while the 1% owns everything and make some laws voted to get even richer .
It's not like you guys are praising the people who voted in 1913 the FED private bank stuff and since you have to pay taxes and your debt is growing bigger and bigger while destroying nature for just a shit economic growth lol .
THIS
>>74790205
>Can't wait for this system to crash and just live a simple life of hunting / gathering
Keep voting for the french socialist party Jean Francois, you're only a few years away from that.
>>74790205
I really doubt anyone is praising cronyism or government intervention to secure business interests.
>Why support free market?
Because abundance. Easy, maintainable abundance.
>>74790304
>You get the money but with no accountability or knowledge to invest it.
Exactly my friend
>And if those sands run dry, what then? Has your people owned business gained the experience or the know-how to find other resource or to establish new nodes?
Then we find another resource
>Remember when racist africans kicked whites out of their countries but couldnt manage said farms and mines? Thats what youre gonna bring on yourself. Its like a chicken without a head.
Boxer: "If we get rid of Farmer Jones who will feed us?"
>>74790437
Umm dude. I would take the steps but there is no opportunity.
>>74790205
but sure yeah
>>74790627
If you say so.
ITT: underage never-had-a-job commies think that rich people are out to get them
>>74790722
sure
>>74790824
Well, this is literally just going to devolve to
>There are plenty of opportunities!
>No there are not
Rinse repeat
If you genuinely believe there is no room for new businesses despite the fact that new businesses are being created everyday, then I'm just going to call you an idiot.
How can France/the UK even be taken seriously? This, despite Mississippi being less than 60% white and the UK being more than 80% white. What a disgrace.
>>74790958
look at the flag before responding m8
>>74790094
>It's where the government controls production.
ftfy
Under socialism, what incentive is there to achieve greatness when the fruits of my labor will be redistributed into (stolen by) a society that makes the same wages as I? Capitalism is the reason surgeons make 6 figures and burger flippers make 10k-20k yearly.
You dont groom creative thinkers or driven people with socialism. Its simple laziness. I find it ironic that American liberals shun dark age catholicism for robbing us of scientific advances but put socialism on a pedestal when all it does make you swear loyalty to the people who rob your innovations from you.
My fathers side used to live in Russia and they were jealous of the dumbest shit. My dad had a toy car that he had to keep hidden. If he was found out my grandparents would have been shipped to the gulag.
>>74790808
Get out of here you dumb fascist.
>>74791229
>commie rages at facts
You literally subscribe to Marxism. kys
>>74790958
>new businesses being created everyday
No whats happening is fortune 500 companies are expanding their empires under different brands.
>>74791474
nice factual evidence
nice flag
nice post
>>74781607
At that point I'd rather the super-humans decide than random /pol/acks.
>>74791474
The second-largest company in the world by market cap (Google) didn't even exist 20 years ago.
It was created by two students on a university campus.
Regardless, most businesses are small businesses. You can start a snow plowing business in Canada, I don't think the big bad corporations are out to get you.
>>74791229
he literally posted a scholarly academic journal article and you whine about it?
>>74791444
You literally subscribe to Nazism
>>74791531
LOL you haven't given any evidence
>>74791844
That was due to a tech boom. Technology is basically done advancing because corporations would rather make themselves richer than advance science.
>>74790094
If you have an Internet connection and the will to learn, you can educate yourself on the latest material. Don't sell yourself short. While it's not the same as a degree that says you've learned core materials and can understand how to learn new things, if you showed up to a high school/uni/etc. and you know all of the material, they wouldn't want anything else than to get you in there with little to no cost to the student because they believe that after you're certified as educated, you might be able to give back when you really start going places.
But even without, look at what is still marketable in society, especially things that can reduce or remove human error. What about physical protection of what you actually have with locks as to keep burglars at bay? There's also been some teenager that wanted to implement cctv or something similar in airplane cockpits for less than a hundredth of the cost of what airlines would pay otherwise and proved it was possible by creating a working version on the budget of your average joe. Again, it all comes down to you both/either not wanting or being able to see what can emerge or improve different areas of human life or defeating yourself before you start
>>74791945
You're only looking for excuses to explain your own failure at this stage.
>>74776686
I'm a capitalist but I don't like talking about it on /pol/ so much because there is only a certain level of shitposting I can tolerate.
>>74791935
quit whining.
>>74791531
some shit about being attractive
>>74791935
Some shit about being attractive is what he posted.
>>74791945
>You literally subscribe to Nazism
No, I don't.
>LOL you haven't got any evidence
I wasn't trying to make an empirical claim. You were, which is why I pointed out that you have no evidence to support any of your retarded ideology.
>Technology is basically done advancing
OK, I get it, leaves are shitposters, but this is just too much to believe...
>>74784143
>Multinational corporatiosn outcompete local traders so they go bankrupt.
Well no, EU subsidized farmers dump their surplus in Africa and aid programs dump food in Africa which crowds out the local farmers and causes starvation during less overproduction in Europe. This has to do with statism, not capitalism. Planned economies are literally one of the staples of socialism.
>>74792044
How im already too old to start a business and learn skills.
>>74792255
You're too poor and lazy* to learn new skills.
>>74792219
If they cut the aid they'd starve.
>>74792255
Is opening a restaurant that hard in Leaf-land?
Take out a loan, buy out a lot and start making money. Then invest it into other things. Buy out a complex and rent to people.
In the end you'll be able to live the rest of your life on vacations. You can live the yacht life too.
How many here are ancap? Does anyone believe there are notable advantages that justify government regulation?
>>74792344
I'm not poor my dad has a lot of money but said he won't give it to me unless I re-take adult high-school courses so I can get into College but that is embarrassing.
>>74792600
LOL! Poor autist. I wish I had a rich dad who would give me money for doing shit 85 IQ niggers do regularly.
Maybe you should take ECON101 and some other classes that normal people take, and then reconsider shitposting your communist views onto the internet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okHGCz6xxiw
>>74792600
Theres probably a lot of people there who are older than you and dont give a fuck.
Just saying, your choice. Either become accountable for your future, or stay a victim to yourself for the rest of your life.
Its never too late to change.
>>74792828
lol this
