Are socialists/communists mainly just people that don't want to work?
>>74621997
Refusing to work is the ultimate redpill.
And why *would* people be willing to work in a socialist/communist society?
>>74621997
Do you mean the formulators of communist theory or do you mean college kids?
Cuz college kids are just intellectually lazy with a bunch of pent up emotion they don't know how to deal with.
>>74621997
I am a Communist, I do have a full-time job.
But I am not the typical college Communist though.
If you can't take care of yourself when you're not working full time, you might be a degenerate.
>>74622060
Sure if your goal is to destroy the human race
>>74621997
They are people angry that people who are rich as fuck inherit that wealth and power from their daddies most of the time.
They are peasants angry at the nobles.
>>74622167
is this your version
>>74622264
>destroy the system
FTFY
https://youtu.be/FaCHBmGWcBc?t=40s
>>74622333
I always wondered, do you guys shit in fields too?
>>74622302
I am not a "social democrat" no. The Scandinavian countries are all Capitalistic, just with a strong government and regulations.
Nice fake info graphic btw, good that you have edited out the name of the person (Mikkel). Yes, I have seen it before. And it's not written by a Danish person.
>>74622534
you can't deny those tax rates tbqhwyf, I didn't crop anything though
it's actually the easiest thing to understand if you don't think about it for more than a minute
>how are we going to make the world a better place?
>there's a government that makes sure everybody is okay!
it's less instantly intuitive that economics is not about people having "jobs" but a society having a dynamic system to allocate resources
you have to understand the idea that people have incentives, and that you can't just legislate that everybody will contribute to society.
you have to actually look at history, and at the outside world. venezuela is tanking because of Hugo Chavez? Deng Xiaoping's market reforms lifted millions out of poverty, but they're hitting a bottleneck because of lingering state control? politicians in brazil were illegally taking money from the state-owned oil company?
not to mention socialism's recurring atrocities
>>74621997
>Two different monitors
fucking triggered
>>74622685
Yes, we have high taxation, and since I don't know how Denmark operates good enough, I can't say more than that this is written by someone that 1. Is not Danish 2. Thought that Mikkel is a female name, and "Nissen" is a last name (it means Santa Claus), so obviously do not know a lot about Denmark.
And what you can't deny is that the Scandinavian countries are one of the best countries to live in. Despite the shitty weather and "nothing" happening here.
But again, I am not a "Social Democrat" (Scandinavia isn't even social democratic).
>>74622167
On what grounds do you distinguish between capital and other kinds of property? Why does capital somehow have different rules?
>>74623238
You mean having money, and owning property?
No private property in Marxism is not about owning your own house or clothes etc. It's about that production should not be private, but owned and run by the workers.
>>74623441
That's what I'm asking. Why is capital not allowed to be privately owned? What makes this kind of property special, whereas your own car or bed is ok to own privately?
>>74623727
Because in my view, collecting property and objects is a human need. Many animals do it.
And you having a pair of socks you have made yourself is not exactly exploiting anyone?
>>74621997
Quite the opposite, it is just that we would like useful jobs.
>>74622080
>And why *would* people be willing to work in a socialist/communist society?
To stay in it
>>74625098
like higher paying or the job itself?
>>74625133
not an argument, doesn't even make sense
>>74625098
So go and get one then.
>>74625186
job itself
>doesn't even make sense
maybe not to drones
>>74625224
there are little to none in capitalistic country
The thing about communists is that they are manchildren. They haven't grown up. It's not that they hate work, they hate responsibility and independence. It scares them.
They want to live forever stuck mooching off their parents.
They want the big powerful government to cuddle them and take care of everything while giving them allowance like their parents did.
It makes perfect sense that kids like communism. They already live in small scale communism.
Examine the family from the perspective of a kid. A kid doesn't have to work, the kid is taken care of, there's people working and giving the kid money, giving the kid anything it needs for free. They buy the kid shit and give the kid money. This is what communists want society to be like. They haven't yet realized that they can't mooch off their parents forever. It's why when people get a job they stop being communists. You thought ''get a job, commie'' was just a meme. It's not. If you get a job this parents/child dynamic is gone. Once they don't rely on free stuff and hand outs, once they know where the money comes from they're no longer communists.
>>74621997
In a communist society everyone works. A lot.
>>74625737
Wrong, I am a Communist, I got a job (good paying on too). Still a Communist.
>>74621997
Basically, yes.
>>74625955
Yes, you're a manchild.
>>74626026
Not at all. Your argument is?
>>74622080
They are delusional about human nature. They think if we just teach everyone to be friendly and hardworking, it will work. Look how they push the racial equality, the numbers just don't match, same with gender equality. They don't think things through, because they blame everything on bad people, on racists, sexists, homophobes, bigots and and and...
Socialism can never work. Communism can never work.
>>74626145
That you have infantile beliefs not founded in logic, but in feelings that relate to your childhood or the childhood you wish you had.
>>74626251
If you don't work, you won't get any money/housing either.
>>74626367
Which is something that you just assume, because you think Communists think like this.
Does not make it a true statement. Because it's not.
>>74626511
I don't care why you personally are a communist.
If I make a general statement saying that feminists are fat ugly women with daddy issues and you come out saying ''but I am a skinny MALE feminist without daddy issues!!!!!!''.
I don't care and it doesn't disprove the general statement.
You're simply some other form of a basket case. If I had one good look at you I'd instantly figure out what your mental problem is that attracts you to one of the worst ideologies that have ever existed.
>>74623153
Scandinavia has always been a great place to live regardless of politics, Sweden has low taxes and free markets not too long ago
>>74626795
You said;
"The thing about communists is that they are manchildren."
So you meant so say that many (or the majority?) of them are manchildren? As a Communist, having been with other Communists, I can say that there are no more manchildren among this group than other groups.
It does disprove your general statement, because you said that Communist are something. Not that some, or many or the majority, but that they are. It was a factually wrong statement.
>>74621997
that probably has a lot to do with it.
>>74626378
So what do you work? Who decides what job you do? If you can decide it, you will become a professional artist, producing 1 bad drawing everyday and having fun the rest of the day. If your state decides it for you, it has to make the decision somewhere. The people can't vote on every single job and who gets it. A government will take care of it. And they will force you into bad conditions. People complain about wage slavery, but the competition in a capitalist society guarantees that good workers can get a better paying, not so dangerous job. Good workers are a valuable resource. But if the state has the power, there is no competition, the state doesn't have to fight with others for the good workers, it doesn't have to provide better pay or benefits.
>>74627083
You are a manchild though. That's why you're a communist. It takes an infantile mind to hold infantile beliefs.
You simply stating that you're not a manchild doesn't mean anything. That's like me saying that I am a KKK member, but I am not racist.
>>74627083
Could you explain why you are a communist?
>>74627380
Autism and gibsmedats
>>74627051
Scandinavia became a great place to live with the increasing power of the Social Democratic parties/more power to the working class.
We are not steadily becoming a worse place to live, with increasing inequality.
>>74627110
>So what do you work? (why?)
Social status. "Communist" countries do not lack educated and good doctors, scientists or other high-skilled jobs.
Who decides it? I guess you educate yourself to be something, if it's an overflow, only the best ones will get the jobs and the others have to re-educate themselves.
The competition would still be based on skill. If the country needs 1000 doctors, the 1000 best doctors will become doctors.
>>74627083
fuck off with these semantics, you're either being disingenuous or you're literally autistic.
if you say "a group is X", it's implied that there might be some exceptions but that X is the overwhelming trend. this is how the english language works.
>>74627408
yeah but I want to hear it in his own words.
>>74627451
you're just making shit up, Scandinavia has been an expensive vacation spot and highly touted area for a good century now, the welfare state is destroying the wealth they once had
>>74621997
Yes, they would rather see themselves equals in chains than freeman both wealthy and poor.
>>74621997
Not really.
There are active socialists and communists, but they're just political activists. All they like to do is engage in mental exercises (debating politics to ad nauseum for example) maybe be a writer for some online news site or some shit. But the issue to this is that this type of work doesn't promote anything of value. The only way to have a living like this would be to have a large government that supports your life style.
It saddens me to say this, but I barely know any self identified socialist or communist who produces anything of value. All they do is conduct mental exercises on gender identity and the meaning of socialism, aka nothing of value if being produced.
>>74627451
So I can just fail to become a doctor, rocket scientist and such over and over again? skipping classes sounds great. Better than reeducating myself to be a factory worker.
I mean, you can't let students starve, so that would be a legit way of skipping work and just benefiting. Or is there something like a government that controls things? I mean, there has to be some test to see who's the best doctor! Doctors won't just play rock paper scissors.
>>74623727
all capital is ultimately owned by the federal reserve in this ''capitalist'' system so whats the difference?
>>74623727
>What makes this kind of property special, whereas your own car or bed is ok to own privately?
The tools to make things are collectively owned. The things made are your own. How is that hard to understand?
>>74627350
there are just as many wage cuck manchildren and business owner man children. Ending the master slave relationship and achieving a worker owner society (socialism) is not infantile. its Gods work.
socialism and communism are 20th century ideologies. what exists today is something that takes the class war frame and makes it about dumb millennial shit like micro aggressions and birth control.
>>74628020
you sound retarded. if you willingly take a wage in exchange for your lowly, uneducated labour, then it's not slavery.
>>74628020
>many wage cuck manchildren and business owner man children
Yes, and they're usually left leaning, socialists and communists.
>>74628264
This is just rhetoric. If a man doesn't take any job, a man doesn't eat. His options are limited. Employers are well aware. There's no frontier. The barrier to entry of starting a business is high, as is the risk of failure. It's a very large cage. But it's still a cage.
>>74627350
>>74627408
Ok Mr. Romanov
>>74627479
He said that I am a Manchild, because I am a Communist. Just read his post. He says that to be a Communist, you have to be a manchild. I'm aware that you can say that "a group is X" and imply that there are exceptions. Mr. Romanov does not think that.
>>74627380
>>74627543
No thanks.
>>74627672
I am from Norway. I know Norwegian history a lot better than you do. British/French/German workers all had it better than us before the Working class (with the Worker unions and Labour party) gaining more power. You are the one that is making shit up lol, I am 100% sure I know more about Norway than you do.
George Washington was a Vampire.
>>74627786
Would you do that? :)
Intentionally fail your classes, just to be a full-time student? Also theoretically it could be possible to have a cap. If you fail too much, you will have to take a low-skilled job, which the government will decide.
>>74621997
IMBECILE.
Youre thinking of laissez faire capitalists.
>>74628020
Okay, how do new businesses start? I mean, you have to take a huge loan to set up a restaurant and only hit a break-even point after years. being a "master" comes at a huge risk.
>>74621997
no they are just retarded and brainwashed. I dont want to work either but im not a socialist or a communist.
>>74621997
I'm willing to work, I just don't like working for some rich faggot who thinks he's better than me. Anyone who defends the rich, who isn't rich himself, is a pathetic cuck. I fully support meritocracy because I know my abilities as well as my limits, which I am fine with.
>>74628656
you sound like a huge faggot cuck
>>74628459
> Would you do that? :)
Well, yes, I'm a capitalist, I only do what's in my self interest. And I think there will be a shortage of low-skilled workers, so the government will force people to do those jobs. I mean, jobs are there to be done, not for people to have. I'm well aware of corruption in capitalist society and I think the bureaucrats will help each other getting their families the good jobs, while the rest of the people will be at a disadvantage.
>>74628428
the "cage" you're talking about is the universal fact of life that you have to expend energy and time to reap resources for survival.
this you cannot escape. whether you're chucking spears at your dinner or swinging a hammer for the dollar that will buy your dinner.
if a workers' union or whatever takes charge of your entire country, you'll still have the privileged administrative class and those lowly labourers. the "slave" relationship will still exist.
>>74628656
You work to get money. If you want to be your own boss, take a loan and build a business, otherwise you don't have the abilities to be a leader and you have to be a follower, simple as that.
>>74622534
>The Scandinavian countries are all Capitalistic, just with a strong government and regulations.
Then they aren't capitalistic. There is no free market if the government regulates everything.
>>74622264
Good goy
>>74628656
>I'm willing to work, I just don't like working for some rich faggot who thinks he's better than me.
so what'll you do, go pick berries to sustain yourself? if someone has the resources to pay you so you can shitpost on 4chan at night then they really are better than you.
>>74628773
>And I think there will be a shortage of low-skilled workers
Not if the government - or rather the higher education institutions have caps. Only the best can have the high-skilled jobs. The ones that work hard will get these jobs, and the status that follows. There was no shortage in the USSR or China or Cuba or any other self-proclaimed Communist or Socialist state that I know of.
Yes, both the USSR and China turned bureaucratic where a new bureaucratic class arrived and replaced the previous Capitalist classes.
It's indeed an ideological problem for us Communists, how to prevent a new ruling class to emerge. But it's not like Capitalism is a new system. Feudalism lasted a lot longer and several revolutions led to the world we have today in the Western World.
>>74621997
Every system manipulates the selfish greed in human beings, its why none of them work.
>>74628944
Small businesses carry more risk for the individual and they face a steep climb to succeed. Also, a large problem I have is that the government is essentially owned by business interests. There are few politicians who aren't wealthy and many of them are interconnected somehow. This is not how a republic should function. Politicians should represent the will of their constituents.
t. kaczynski
>>74628960
From Wiki: "Capitalism is an economic system based on private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit".
The government used to build houses and do operate some companies, but the companies still worked and works to create profit (Statoil, Telenor, Electricity providers etc.).
What definition of Capitalism do you think are the the most accurate?
>>74628989
I'm a loser and I don't expect you or anyone to agree with me. I've given up on my own life a long time ago, for other reaons. Doesn't mean I don't see the broken and unjust society in which we live for what it is.
I don't want to pick berries, no, but if I was a Wal Mart employee, I would feel nothing but disgust to hear that I don't deserve a higher wage because I am "lazy" from some fat fuck who is getting paid six figures to pass legislation that punishes me.
>>74621997
>Are socialists/communists mainly just people that don't want to work?
Yes
Communism is an ideology created to justify inherent laziness. Communists don't work.
>>74628901
Civilization subverts the law of the jungle. Humans are pro-social. They wanted to make life easier. The fact that it's difficult to get by in developed countries, that there's so much youth unemployment... it's a sign that something's wrong. Playing a game of musical chairs and being left out doesn't make you lazy, it makes you unfortunate. Just look the statistics, the youth don't buy cars, or houses, they aren't marrying or having children. Why? It's money. It's all money. If they had it, they'd be reaching all these normal milestones of adulthood.
/pol/ is always saying that people don't want to justify their existence. I think that's cynical. They absolutely do. But the socio-economic systems that are failing more and more people, continue lurching forward through sheer inertia. It's stifling. There may as well be dragons lying atop all the treasures that allow and provide for opportunity.
>>74622080
>that picture
This is why it fails.
It runs out of other people's money.
It also makes people not want to work, because you don't get to keep what you earned. You work hard so a lazy person can live like a king. It's inherently unfair.
>>74629068
Well, there may not have been a shortage of doctors or farmers, but there was a shortage of food. People starved.
> The ones that work hard will get these jobs, and the status that follows.
Not if the bureaucrats manage it. Look, big family businesses are passed down to their offspring, not the best worker in the company. The Walton family will pass their empire down to their sons and daughters. If they put family over merit, bureaucrats will do the same thing. I mean, the president doesn't pick his cabinet based on merit, he picks people that agree with him on certain issues.
I think the best arguments against capitalism is that the ones with capital rules, but the capital is split up more than in other systems.
>>74622267
>angry that people who are rich as fuck inherit that wealth and power from their daddies
If a human decides to create another human (via cloning or reproduction), why does it matter if they give their money to that new human?
If you earned your money, why does it matter who you give it to?
https://youtu.be/qFi01lm8RvY
this is what leftists want?!?
>>74629177
Well, think about how the corporations make it harder for new businesses to grow and you will see that giving the state power to control the market is not in the interest of the consumer. I agree, crony capitalism or corporatism is a huge problem. I think we people have to take measures to hold politicians accountable and in check. Bribing is a huge problem!
>>74629660
Ameriburgers spend the money on military, not kids college, it's still "other peoples money"
>>74621997
most of them are
>>74629519
that's not wrong, but how does communism fix it? there's other, very obvious things that could be addressed within our system rather than having to massacre everyone currently in charge. globalism is the real thief of our generation, as local labour loses to cheaper 3rd worlders and corporations betray their countries to reduce costs.
>>74629667
>Shortage of food
There had always been a shortage, the Communists ended it.
People (at a large scale) still starve in today's world, 99 years after the Russian revolution. WHO I think, estimate that about 1 billion people suffer from malnutrition (according to some organizations, 50 million in the US (!)). And that is just food - lack of education, health care, clean water, proper housing etc.
And yes, I agree that it's an ideological problem, with a new ruling class emerging; "Red bureaucrats". I don't think it's worse than in Capitalist societies (where wealth is inherited). But it's a problem, and it's anti-Communistic. Yet it happened in the USSR and China.
I think the best argument pro-Capitalism is that people think that they are free. It's actually a legit argument. If people feel free, they are happier. I don't think people in today's Russia are happier than they were in the 70s and early 80s though.
And I have read several statements from Germans that lived in Eastern-Germany that said that people were happier before. It might just be nostalgia though.
But just as Capitalism and Liberalism had it's Bonaparte, Communism have had too. We have never seen a Communist revolution in a developed country.
>>74630156
>We have never seen a Communist revolution in a developed country.
because people in developed (capitalist) countries are more or less content and don't need to resort to violent revolution
I like working. It makes me feel like I have accomplished something but that's probably my German blood in me. Also, money is nice to have.
>>74630156
> 50 million in the US
that's because these people fall under the poverty line, no one starves to death in the US.
> And I have read several statements from Germans that lived in Eastern-Germany that said that people were happier before. It might just be nostalgia though.
They built a wall to keep their people in. I trust the people that vote with their feet. The immigration speaks volumes. They had some nostalgia for products, but the horrors of Stasi and poverty were far bigger problems.
>>74630105
>massacre everyone currently in charge
The catharsis alone would make a lot of people feel better. And well-being is good, yes? A backfire to thwart a wildfire.
Joking aside, in Soviet Russia, guaranteed employment was a right. Maybe some of it was make-work, but so what. Better than breaking windows. Better than NEETs.
>>74621997
It's an ideology that attempts to exploit the (incorrect) belief that all people have inherent, equal worth. The basic idea is that everyone should be able to have the same living standards and level of happiness, whether you're a nuclear engineer, or a doctor, or a coal miner, or a school teacher, or a philosopher, or a fast food worker, or a literal retard who can't form complete sentences. It's a warped interpretation of the expression "all men are equal".
While this sounds great on paper and gives you pleasant butterflies in your tummy, it's completely contradictory to reality and human nature. The retard or the fast food worker simply does not have the same worth to others as the doctor or the engineer. People deserve equal treatment under the law and equal opportunities, but they are not equal in ability, willingness, or intelligence, and are therefore not equal in worth. Some people have more ability and/or willingness to produce worth than others, and are thus inherently better people. Socialists are the inferiors who see these people exuding this worth that they themselves can't or don't want to spend effort generating, and thus seek to steal it from those who do.
>>74621997
Nah for the most part they're minimum wage drudges who don't understand that minimum wage jobs are supposed to be a temporary step on a career path not their entire future
>>74630267
Yes, content because they are bribed with imperialist goods. Say a Norwegian worker does not produce or work as hard as the Chinese that made that Iphone (that he thinks is so important to be happy), or the African miner that slaved for the metal in it.
>>74630492
I guess some do starve to death (Children with drug-addicted parents or homeless people etc.), but they are malnourished.
But that's just the US. Look at the rest of the world.
>>74630673
>bribed with imperialist goods
like having food, shelter and safety? what a dumb way to look at the world. it's you revolutionary ideologues who fight the civil war and then are culled by your own after you serve your purpose.
>>74630830
I think that Norwegian people should provide for our self. Canadians should provide for themselves, Germans provide for themselves and other people provide for themselves. Not steal from other countries.
If you don't care about people working at the cost of their health and well-being, I understand that you think my world view is dumb.
>>74630553
employment in the USSR wasn't a "right", they didn't look at things like that. if you didn't go into specific education after high school, or failed a year of your chosen education, you just went to the army or to do general labour.
you could not be outside on a weekday during working hours without a special permission paper. you even went to jail if you refused to work at all:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitism_%28social_offense%29#Soviet_Union
>>74630673
> Look at the rest of the world.
I think the wealth isn't just there. it has to be produced. The Asian world is growing faster than ever under capitalism, food is the fucking best product ever. You don't need to spend millions in advertisement, you don't need to improve quality that much, people want to eat and the more they eat the more they breed. The factories down there improve working conditions and infrastructure more and more. I would love to provide the African people with food, but they live in a politically unstable country and the risk of getting shot or having my shop and farms burned down is too high.
>>74621997
2/10 would not bang
>>74623153
>And what you can't deny is that the Scandinavian countries are one of the best countries to live in
I can and do, and Sweden's politics are driving its own country into the ground and making it the global butt of all jokes.
>>74630555
This is a fairly accurate and succinct description of modern socialist perspective.
>>74631038
>you could not be outside on a weekday during working hours without a special permission paper
And the opening salvo in this thread, "are socialists/communists people who don't want to work." Well obviously not if Russia sent people who refused to work to jail.
>>74621997
forgot pic'
>>74631140
>>74631172
true. but I addressed this here: >>74628157
whoever calls themselves a communist in the modern world is completely detached from reality. in the western world, there were legit concerns over working conditions and inequality 100+ years ago. now, westerners worry about getting the latest iphone..
>>74631148
>global butt of all jokes
there is a world outside of pol
>>74631084
Yes, ideally all the Capitalist bosses are good decent people that care about their workers. All corporations have the best of people in their mind. They are all more like Henry Ford.
In reality, Capitalism is about profit. It's not about giving people a better living standard. The living standards for the workers are only raised when the workers resist, organize and threatens the profit.
>>74631148
According to statistics, Scandinavian countries are ranked among the best, despite the severe lack of sun and 'happenings'.
>Sweden's politics are driving its own country into the ground and making it the global butt of all jokes.
With global, you mean on /pol/?
Yes, mass immigration is bad. It's not an argument against the welfare state though. Mass immigration is caused by International Capitalist forces.
>>74631180
>shitposting fail
eh... nice try bogan
>out doing free yard work for a friend's grandfather
"Who you voting for?" He asks
"Me. Sanders."
"You just don't wanna work!" He says, while I hold a rake and gloves and am caring for his own garden
Republicans are so embarrassing
No, theyre mainly people who feel that the game is rigged against them. So they advocate for a "Fair" system in which everyone is 100% equal.
I dont blame them to be honest. The first part of the rigged system is nepotism, then theres favoritism, then of course theres skin colors and then privilege and good looks, gender, etc...
Yea, all of those things play a role in the job you have a chance of doing and the pay it gives you.
>>74623149
Why have 2 when you can have more than 3 monitors?
>>74631427
> In reality, Capitalism is about profit
I agree. And it should be that way.
> The living standards for the workers are only raised when the workers resist, organize and threatens the profit.
workers are protected by other companies. If the working conditions were bad, they can look for a new, better paying job. The food industry could probably raise prices twice as high in Germany, but the businesses are competing and the cheapest food will be bought. No one will starve in Germany. Companies are looking for workers producing the most for their loan. If they find a better worker or an equal worker demanding less pay, they should hire him. Only monopolies and cartels can be abused. If every company would agree to lower wages or raise prices, we could do nothing. Only create a new business providing good and wages at the old, reasonable prices. And everyone would buy there.
Right now corporations are buying politicians, so that unreasonable standards and regulations are enforced, keeping competition out. Then they can enslave us. Free the market and the people.
>>74631935
>If every company would agree to lower wages or raise prices, we could do nothing
This is the problem with America and crony capitalism, companies are supposed to compete, not work together to screw everyone over. That includes "The Gubment", "The employees", and the "Consumers".
This is why this shit is fucked.
>>74629660
there aren't so many lazy people.
i get pegged as one all the time; I HAVE AUTOIMMUNE DISORDER. it causes me no end of grief.
there are a lot of people who perform according to their wage; that is to say, if you pay them min wage, they put in min wage work.
corporate america is already nepotistic socialism anyhow; most places you get hired or fired depending on how much ppl like you or who you know not the quality of your work.
this argument is silly.
>>74621997
The thing that most people forget is that work is just a means to an end.
Once production is automated there's literally no reason to keep working at all.
>>74630267
it's called "manufacturing consent" and noam chomsky wrote it.
>>74631935
And I disagree, I want as many people as possible to be happy without destroying the environment.
No one will starve, because there are safety nets (welfare state) + imported food.
>If they find a better worker or an equal worker demanding less pay, they should hire him.
Which is why Corporations encourage immigrants. Which is why Capitalism wants and needs and leads to as Marx put it a 'Reserve army of labour'. No unemployment is crisis for the Capitalists. Because then they can't do what you say, hire someone that will work for less pay.
>>74631654
Do you believe big businesses can afford to overlook a candidate based on religion or ethnicity?
You believe they can stay competitive by not only weakening themselves, but also potentially strengthening their opposition?
>>74621997
>Are socialists/communists mainly just people that don't want to work?
socialists want to "work", but they would not qualify for work in a capitalist system that hires people based on their ability. instead they need to be given jobs because they are women, or have colored skin, or are crippled. And everyone who isn't a special interest can fuck off and stop oppressing them.
>>74632328
This guy gets it.
/pol/ always blames the influx of immigrants on "socialists" but ignore the fact that the people who benefit the most from immigration are the wealthy business owners who get cheap labour.
The people who suffer the most are the poor who now have to compete with the immigrants and live with them, while the rich never even come into contact with them.
>>74622302
the tax stuff is right as far as i know
but for the debt thing I wanna see source
"Few will ever own a car or a house" - what is "Few"? If you have a fulltime job in DK you can afford a car,
if you prioritize it, not everyone does though
same with houses
>>74623153
"Nissen" doesn't mean Santa Claus.
a "Nisse" is one of those small people who help Santa Claus. But as a surname it proberly means something else
I am personally very happy with the Danish welfaresystem, but it's very expensive, and the past years of economic crises'
has put a strain on it. That's one of the reasons why we don't want to let those sandnigger and gypsie refugees into our country;
they're gonna exploit our social security - and we don't wanna end up like Sweden.
Haha fucking sweden, idiots!
This communist Norway cuck, comrade Bernie smiles at you
>>74632399
>but they would not qualify for work in a capitalist system that hires people based on their ability
Almost everyone I know, whether they're call center employees, forklift operators, accountants, anything you can imagine, all have one thing in common: they had a friend in the company.
>>74632474
In Norway we say "Julenissen" or just "Nissen". We do also have "Husnisser", which we also sometimes just refer to as "Nisser".
The original info-graphic were signed, seemingly a woman, named "Mikkel Nissen".
>>74632713
Same with Nisser in Denmark
"Mikkel Nissen" is a male name yes
>>74632044
I think the people have to create some database to hold every politician accountable, to track where his money goes and comes from and especially how much each social program costs. I actually think Trump might lift some regulations to make America's market strong again. He got the congress with him for atleast 2 years. Temporary tariffs to drive away the chinese overlord competition. This man actually wants to build the free market again I think.
>>74632328
Well, happiness is hard to define. I hear people talking about how no one needs iPhones and just buys them because they were brainwashed. But were does it start and end. Electricity needs hard work. Being a builder is hard. Happiness and prosperity have a price.
Who will pay for the welfare state, for the imported food? If being on welfare becomes better than 5% of the worst jobs, people will stop working these jobs, causing less taxmoney and more welfare demands. Causing the next few jobs to become worse than welfare, so people will quit those jobs. In a matter of years a state will completely break down.
Of course we have immigrants coming and outsourcing. You are competing with the world, not only your country anymore. Capitalism encourages you to be as useful as possible to society, so you can enjoy all the other things people produce and serve.
>>74632455
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IZCcUBBCd0
This guy is pretty good.
>>74632857
>Capitalism encourages you to be as useful as possible to society
If only this were true.
People are not paid according to their usefulness to society.
>>74632628
Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, social skills are important and if you're an autist with no friends that you wouldn't fit into a work environment?
>>74632455
Socialists cause open borders and make it easier for immigrants to enjoy our social benefits, our education for the sake of "humanitarian ideals". Leftists cripple our economy with environmental laws, minimum wage and regulations. Outsourcing is done globally, no matter what government is reigning in country A or country B. Once the illegals get amnesty, every company will outsource and the US will not even get any corporate taxes to pay social benefits for their millions of new citizens.
Illegal immigrants only take shit jobs,use the education and get a good job!
>>74629368
>Trusting wikipedia
That explanation literally uses Marxist terminology and you're basing your argument from that? Topkek friendo
>>74632857
Yes, happiness hard to define. Maslow's pyramide does a good job though, in providing what is necessary for happiness.
You have railed the discussion of today's Capitalist countries vs your ideal. I support neither.
>Of course we have immigrants coming and outsourcing.
Yes, of course. It's the very nature of Capitalism to destroy borders and have a free float of class unconscious worker's taking whatever job they can get. Because if they do not take the job they are offered, they starve. This is what the nature of Capitalism wants, and leads to, if it isn't restrained.
>>74622167
Kutt ut det greine der Petter, det er bare tull
>>74633337
Which is why I asked you to come up with a definition of what makes an economy Capitalistic or not.
Also I am literally a Communist, many of us do use Marxist terminology.
>>74633398
Lol
>>74633068
A lecture on social adjustment from Japan. Funny. But no, I leave the house, have friends and bathe regularly.
>>74632104
>there aren't so many lazy people.
guess you never heard of pakis or mudslimes in general
>>74633299
Except there are no socilist countries in Europe. They're all capitalist and they're all welcoming immigrants with open arms.
Gee I wonder why...
>>74622302
This sounds actually great.
>>74633700
you like being financially cucked by the government in return for services that would've been cheaper in the private sector anyway? Sounds like fraud more than anything, breeds laziness/entitlement
>>74632974
If they wouldn't be that useful, people would hire someone else who demands less for his work. Actors are being paid millions. CEOs are being paid millions. Producers and Investors would love to save some money.
>>74633343
Capitalists donate to charity. The very idea is to make money that you can spend on what you want. Homeless people in Germany don't receive any money from the government, but the people give them enough to eat and drink every day. I also think that nations shouldn't vanish. I'm fine with immigration if the immigrants find a job first. I think every nation should provide some safety nets, so people can go to school, learn jobs. Better than forcing them into being a factory worker, when they could build a machine ten times as productive as they are, if they had access to school.
I would love to fight socialism and communism, but the problem is that most of the abuse in capitalism can be solved by competition and a free market, in socialism and communism you will have a state using force.
>>74622302
This is such bullshit.
Look at any quality of life index and you'll see that Denmark scores FAR higher than the US.
America's great if you're part of the upper middle class with a trust fund. For the vast majority though, it's a meme.
>>74633864
I never defended American crony capitalism, and no shit Scandinavia is full of happy lads. It's fucking Scandinavia
>>74633831
Footballers get paid millions whilst firefighters and paramedics earn less than £30k/year and you're telling me that capitalism rewards usefulness?
Fuck off.
>>74633791
>would've been cheaper in the private sector anyway?
Indeed. Why should they be cheaper?
>>74633791
Except they are not cheaper in the private sector. Look at the US.
>>74633831
Some Capitalists are very good people. The system are not though.
You are fine with immigrants, as long as they compete with the native workers and lower the native working class's wages.
I disagree. I care more about people than profit.
>>74633694
And the fucking leftists voted these people. The leaders and business owners will always stay rich and on top, no matter how big the ghettos get. Germany will burn, Sweden will burn, the refugees will be leechers. They are not like mexicans, they didn't come for work, they came for social benefits. There is no work for them in Germany.
>>74634127
do you want me to explain market principles to you? College and healthcare should never be worth half of your income
>>74634131
US is not fully private sector, it's what's making them so expensive. Poor cheap shot
not working under communism is illegal since it hurts the collective
>>74634281
I would guess pharmaceutical corporations is what makes it so expensive, but ok.
>>74622534
"Scandinavian countries are all capitalistic"
Ahahahahahahahaha top fucking kek mate.
Are you living under a rock or in a cave perhaps?
>>74634131
It's not the perfect system, but other than socialism and communism it works far better.
>>74633986
Footballers play great.
People watch TV.
People watch Ads.
Companies make millions.
They are worth their money. Life isn't just survival.
>>74634349
over regulated markets sure helps, but Obamacare has tripled average premiums and the feds spend a huge amount of the budget on medicare/Medicaid. It's a shit system that has little to do with free market capitalism
>>74634368
every Scandinavian country has a freer business market than the US. They rely on a laissez-fair capitalism to afford their public services. Hell your own country were free market capitalists with very little taxation not even 50 years ago. It made them the 4th richest country in the world
>>74634368
What definition of Capitalism can be used to say that the Scandinavian countries are not Capitalistic?
>>74634244
>do you want me to explain market principles to you?
Of course, you can tell me your liberal stories and even cite some Friedman's quotes if you want. Make me laugh at your ignorance.
>>74632104
>there aren't so many lazy people.
There are more than you imagine.
t. lazy person
>>74621997
No one wants to work. We do it because we have to.
>>74634588
Where do you stand politically?
>>74634588
...I'm not liberal. You don't make sense
>>74621997
Nope we just people to have control over their work (an com not Marxist)
>>74634543
I don't know enough about how Obamacare work. For me it sounds like that you have to buy insurance so that corporations can earn even more.
>>74634775
welcome to America. Again, not an accurate representation of capitalism
>>74622060
this.
fuck working.
>>74634841
>Fuck working
Rotting in your basement in front of your computer will surely make you happy.
>>74622302
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
>>74621997
"Muh Socialists" come in two flavors. The mentally feeble and those who plan to be the Commissars.
>>74622060
>refusing to hunt for food is the ultimate redpill
>>74622080
Why do you think that Socialism always resorts to forcing others to work at the point of a gun?
>>74635334
In theory a Socialist system could just say "Work or no food" though, just like a Capitalist system could.
>>74621997
obviously
>>74632866
Extremely simplified view of this situation. No politician who is for taking in these false refugees (a politician who bases their views in reality than ideology), is going to assume that these people can be used efficiently as low skilled labor. Some of them do not accept jobs with low wages, some of them are more interested in welfare. People seem to forget that these people will be, at some point, able to vote. I am sure that everyone can see these people in their own countries, who will do that extra effort pimping their country and taxpayers money, to welcome these people with more open arms. Good example of this could be London, where people who do not speak English are already loyal voters of Labour party. It is also extremely unfortunate that people still side with Marx and ignore people like Weber (and these people pose as intellectuals).
>>74635412
Wrong again.
Under Capitalism, private charity is allowed.
This is not the case under Socialism as it is said to foster class divisions.
People are forced to work in socialist nation you stupid fucking poltards
for you meme-ing Scandinavians
what is the deal with negative interest rates? what are they meant to achieve?
>>74635540
Look at Africa,Asia and Latin America
Charity isn't enough
>>74634943
Can confirm this is not the case. Working didn't make me happy either though. It just made me miss not having to work.
>>74635603
We're forced to work in any nation. Life is suffering. We need to all get used to it.
>>74635723
Why aren't these people dead then?
>>74635618
my understanding is this: to maximize economic growth and keep demand of money as high as possible
>>74635692
All Communist / Socialist Dictatorships of niggers, gooks and shitskins.
Try harder, Bong.
>>74635723
Simple matter of do you wish to keep what you earn or have it taken by force to be spread among the parasites.
>>74635540
>as it is said to foster class divisions.
I am pretty sure that helping starving people is not something that oppose Communist ideology lol.
>>74635537
Yes, it is. But it's the main cause, more so for the open borders within EU. If Immigration harmed the profit of corporations, it would not happen.
If you are going to explain complex things more easily, you have to zoom out and look at the whole picture. Which is what the Fusaro guy tries to do. The acceptance of Mass immigration is a combination of the will of the Corporations and wannabe humanitarians, fooled by these corporations.
Soon the Neo-Liberal parties will call for a reduction of the welfare state and at the same time cutting in salaries and worker's rights. Leading to, as Marx called it, a large 'Reserve Army of Labour". Lot's of unemployed people that have to work to survive.
>>74635895
>Implying I'm not just studying here
Look at how Chile used to be and how they're improving now.
Asians have a higher IQ than whites btw.
>>74636005
Not soon, they are already calling for it. All the non-working immigrants (thinking that just surviving is great) will be used as an argument.
It's already used by a lot of people already, how Welfare is so bad because immigrants exploit it. Welfare states are attacked, not because of welfare itself, but because immigrants exploit it.
>>74635810
Because it's more politically convenient to keep them as leeches to society in perpetual state of helplessness.
>>74636021
OK Ahmed, we get it. Build mosque.
S.America is a shit stain on the planet and Chile is just happy to have anything.
As for chows, in spite of their high IQ's they sure seem to embrace shitty governments. China, N. Korea, etc.
Kill yourself.
>>74636005
> helping starving people
how can you help other starving people if you should only take what you need?
States will reduce welfare state by inflation, but the salaries and rights won't be cut.
>>74636163
Oh, the great welfare system is being exploited? What a surprise. Either Leechers abuse it or the government will abuse the people. There are no angels on earth.
>>74636005
The problem I see with this is the fact that we are always going to have unemployed people no matter what, so one can easily say "see, Marx predicted this", when in reality some amount of unemployment will be natural. In here if one is unskilled and unemployed they are assigned to take courses, advised to re-educate etc. So in this case this categorization of unskilled people, who are without any rights, is way too black and white (and intellectually dishonest) way of looking how European countries work.
>If Immigration harmed the profit of corporations, it would not happen
At least over here the ones profiting from this "immigration" (let's not call these people immigrants, it will give them a bad name) are companies that work for the government and associated with leftist parties. These companies are run by taxpayers money and they mainly cater services for refugees. Municipalities also get extra funding from the state / refugee. Economics is little bit silly, because this all can be calculated as growth, which makes uneducated people go "see, they boost our economy".
>>74622080
>work hard keep half
So current western capitalism? Except your boss takes half and then the government takes half of that.
>>74621997
Not mainly but obviously there are those who don't want to work, same as there is a landed gentry class who don't ever want to work on the other side of the autism spectrum
>>74623153
At least you mother fuckers get something for your taxes. My tax is basically the same and the government does nothing for me.
>>74621997
na, it's primarily virtue signaling and cult following.
>>74634685
Far left.
>>74636464
>how can you help other starving people if you should only take what you need?
People could make politicians/the community organize distribution of food. But I am not saying that people that do not work should die, it was just for argument's sake.
>but the salaries and rights won't be cut.
When I was 18, a non-skilled job paid 160 kr/h on average. Now it's pretty normal to see 140-150 kr/h for the same jobs. Less people get permanent employment.
It has already started.
>Oh, the great welfare system is being exploited?
It's being exploited more with more immigrants. Because they lack loyalty to the system and the people around them not to exploit the system. At least here in Norway, being a Welfare exploiter is looked very down upon. It's like the lowest Social status you can have.
And as I said, this is used as an argument to remove/decrease the welfare state. The rights and salaries will go down for Workers, because immigrants will take the jobs they can get. It's already
>>74636556
Marx didn't predict it, he said that Capitalism "need" and "wants" to have a reserve army of labourers. People that will take whatever job they can get, does not participate in strikes etc.
It is not natural that people that want to work, are unemployed. Norway do not have this problem as much, but look at Sweden. Shitloads of desperate Swedes come to Norway to work. In a planned economy, the state or a community or whatever could just open a new factory, and increase production and the amount of goods produced.
>Companies that work for the government and associated with leftist parties
Companies that exploit the wannabe humanitarians for profit.
It's not black and white, no. But there is various reasons why mass immigration/emigration (in the forms we see today) is not anti-Socialistic.
>>74637386
Uncle Joe or CPRF?
>>74636908
Wait until we are not homogeneous anymore/the inequality get's even bigger. Scandinavia have worked so well because the Working Class have had so much power. It's decreasing though, almost gone.
>>74637395
Oops, I mean why mass immigration IS anti-Socialistic
>>74637536
>Uncle Joe or CPRF?
In fact, CPRF has almost nothing to do with marxist ideas; now they're too right to be communist.
Regarding me, I prefer Lenin's and early bolsheviks' ideas.
>>74637395
Denmark's youth unemployment is really high, of course the wages for shit jobs drop a little, it's basic supply and demand. You people have to make yourself employable, rare, expensive. The liberal arts majors will forever stay baristas. Become engineers, programmers, chemists, blue collar, white collar. Educate yourself. Make yourself useful.
>>74637395
>Sweden. Shitloads of desperate Swedes come to Norway to work
The demands for the workforce are changing radically. Jobs and professions that still existed 10 years ago are changing or perhaps completely gone. Every job is getting more demanding requiring more education which in return is making workers more specialized at different jobs. The one big problem with this change is the fact that many companies have lots of resources that they could be using for hiring people to do jobs the companies do not even know they could fill and profit from. Also the one big one is the fact that it's becoming harder and harder to find entry level jobs due to change regarding work in general.
>In a planned economy, the state or a community or whatever could just open a new factory, and increase production and the amount of goods produced.
Certainly you understand why this is simply wrong in the long run. These people would face the problem when goods hit the shelves because there's no demand for it, and all this manpower that was wasted on producing something that has no demand, was taken away from something that could have been used to improve/produce something that has demand. But I'm not going to deny, you could get really flattering statistics for a short while by using that.
>>74622060
this
>>74637938
Are Marxist-Leninist groups growing in Russia?
Are you organized or part of one? I have actually lived in Russia (St. Petersburg) for about 9 month, and people did not care about politics or ideology at all.
What do you think went wrong for the Soviet Union?
>>74637940
>You people
What are you, if not people?
>of course the wages for shit jobs drop a little
Yes, of course because of Capitalism and little resistance against it.
>You people have to make yourself employable
But what about low-skilled jobs? How can people make themselves more employable, with a large stream of incoming workers competing for the same jobs?
By working for less money. I understand that you think that this is perfectly okay. I don't. So no point in discussing this further.
>Make yourself useful.
To whom? The Capitalists seeking profit?
Also I am not "most people", as I make over twice as much as the average income here.
>>74638514
Automation will make low-skilled jobs obsolete. A minimum wage guarantees this as companies are bent on a race to the bottom for margin and cutting costs.
The only job security available in these post-industrial economies is employment based on intellect, not labour.
No, colectivists are just weak & delusional people who chooses wishfull thinking and tribalism over real actions.
>>74637975
Yes, the demands and jobs and professions are changing rapidly. And since Capitalism as a system in it's hunt for short term profits, are bad at reorganizing without crashing (planned economies can be too, but because of old outdated rulers), planned economy is superior, if you can solve the political problems of old and out-dated people not being removed from power.
>These people would face the problem when goods hit the shelves because there's no demand for it
They would obviously produce something that is wanted. If nothing more is wanted, you would simply lower the working hours in a week, and create more positions per work place.
>all this manpower
In a Capitalist country, all this manpower are wasted too, nevertheless. As I said, reduce work hours per week if there is no demand for new goods.
Planned economies are simply superior. Even more so today, with advanced computer system for logistics etc. The problem is the question of leadership, and securing that outdated leadership are replaced. Which is a historical and ideological problem for us Communists.
>>74638673
Automation abolish Capitalism as we see it. Unless massive Corporations hold monopoly on it. There is no reason why governments would not create automatic factories.
>>74636761
might want to check our tax rates, and for the 87th time I reject the current US economy. It's all over-regulated and corporations wet dream
>>74638514
One thing Marx didn't recognize is how long people work. If you make twice the average income, you could talk to your boss and only work 20h per week, making still above average income and more free time for kids and entertainment. And someone else coud work the other 20h and everything would be fine.
If the low-skilled jobs aren't worth their money, you have to either force people into it or subsidize them by taking away from other workers by tax.
> To whom? The Capitalists seeking profit?
The capitalists only make profit from selling their goods and services. If you want shops, you have to support the system making shops possible.
>>74638236
>for about 9 month, and people did not care about politics or ideology at all
Indeed, people here are indifferent to politics. Unfortunately.
>Are Marxist-Leninist groups growing in Russia?
Actually not.
>Are you organized or part of one?
Sadly, but the left wing is absolutely disorganized in Russia; mostly due to unpopularity marxist ideas among population in general, inability to bring new ideas and strong state propaganda.
>What do you think went wrong for the Soviet Union?
There are lots of things what went wrong and many mistakes were made, but speaking about "why USSR collapsed" the answer is clear - the opportunism in highest ranks of soviet nomenklatura.
>>74639092
>One thing Marx didn't recognize is how long people work
I don't get your point, how this is relevant. Is it a critique of Marxist theory which includes this a point?
>If you want shops, you have to support the system making shops possible.
You mean, they make profit from exploiting their workers? The same workers that also buy the same goods and services - and ends up paying back their salary to the Capitalist that ends up with the profit?
>>74631004
>I think that Norwegian people should provide for our self. Canadians should provide for themselves, Germans provide for themselves and other people provide for themselves. Not steal from other countries.
So "I got mine, you got yours. I was lucky to be born in the better country, so I deserve a better life." How is this any different from an individual inheriting a lot of money from their parents?
>>74639104
I mean, how did the opportunism and Nomenlatura manifest itself?
What should Lenin/Stalin have done differently?
Stalin tried to execute a lot of the 'bad' leadership, but it didn't work lol.
Also, what do you think about Stalin? A Bonaparte of Communism, or a good leader in the circumstances?
>>74639548
Do you think the average Norwegian (better country) works harder than the average Chinese? The guy that provides us with our computers, phones etc.?
Bulgarians should fight for themselves, without seeking to exploit other people. Same with Norwegians and every other nationality or country.
Immigration is only a problem now though. In a class less world, it would not be the same.
>>74639405
>
You mean, they make profit from exploiting their workers? The same workers that also buy the same goods and services - and ends up paying back their salary to the Capitalist that ends up with the profit?
More cheese = more holes, more holes = less cheese => more cheese = less cheese.
The workers have free time and can do what they want with all the money they earned. In the end, what can the capitalist do with his profits? Spend it, just like the other people can, too.
>>74639405
The super "useful" people with high wages will only work for a few hours, creating a demand for more of these people. half of factory work may be gone in 10 years, but other half will be really hard and difficult work. Not many will want to work there, wages must go up to attract people. If the wages are high enough, the workers can choose to only work part-time and being fine with half of what they would earn if they worked full-time. Other workers can fill the space they left.
=> more free time for everyone.
Communists are simply subhuman scumbags who want other people's money, on different levels.
>>74639665
>Bulgarians should fight for themselves, without seeking to exploit other people. Same with Norwegians and every other nationality or country.
If we were talking about individuals, you would say it's a hopeless struggle and the wealth would have to be redistributed to make it fair.
Surely if your enlightened, collectivist methods were applied globally, everyone would be better off. Yet you don't want Norway to be forced to pay a "fair share" in order to raise up Zimbabwe.
>>74639891
Yes, and why shouldn't these profit go directly in the worker's pocket? Why shouldn't the worker get back all of the value he created?
The Capitalist ends up with more money than the Workers he exploited for this money.
>The super "useful" people with high wages will only work for a few hours, creating a demand for more of these people. half of factory work may be gone in 10 years, but other half will be really hard and difficult work. Not many will want to work there, wages must go up to attract people. If the wages are high enough, the workers can choose to only work part-time and being fine with half of what they would earn if they worked full-time. Other workers can fill the space they left.
=> more free time for everyone.
In what scenario are you speaking of?
>>74639554
>a good leader in the circumstances?
This. Some of his decisions were quite controversial, but fitting for the situation in which USSR was in 30s.
>What should Lenin/Stalin have done differently?
Well, Lenin did nothing wrong (I know that sounds like meme) with the exceptiion of his early death; regarding Stalin, he actually laid the foundation of the soviet nomenklatura so people werent directly involved in state managment, as it suggested Lenin, not being a member of the party; also elenination of the party opposition wasnt good idea due to deviation from democratic principles.
>>74640123
> The Capitalist ends up with more money than the Workers he exploited for this money.
The capitalist is providing the equipment, the building, the jobs. He probably took a loan to open a shop. There's a huge risk in taking a loan. More than 60% of new restaurants fail in the first 5 years.
He isn't exploiting the workers. They choose to work there, they can find another job if they don't like it. They can even take a loan and create their own business. Restaurants take at least 2 years to be make get to a break-even point, mostly 4-5 years. If the capitalists didn't make money, there would be no jobs.
You communists take everything for granted, but have you ever spent a second thinking were all the wealth, all the stuff is coming from?
>>74640100
>Yet you don't want Norway to be forced to pay a "fair share" in order to raise up Zimbabwe.
I want Norwegians to provide for our selves. Without exploiting Chinese factory workers, African miners or Polish carpenters. This is the first step towards creating a class less society.
If Norwegians are not exploiting others, they have no share to pay up on. I do think that a Communist Norway should help less fortunate countries though, if the people in Norway wanted to do so.
>>74629393
If you worked hard enough and you arent a retard you would have a good job with a good pay.
Working at Wal Mart is something everyone can do, this is why it doesnt pay well. Is it so hard?
>>74640354
Have you read anything from Yuri Zhukov?
http://clogic.eserver.org/2005/furr.html
The picture given of Stalin, by Khrushchev and his people (there was a coup after Stalin's death) seems to be more fitting on Khrushchev himself.
- Stalin wanted to abolish the Communist Party from power, and have open elections
- Wanted to have a more technocratic ruler ship
- And other ideas that was not implemented because probably 1. WW2 coming and 2. Large opposition in the party.
My view (from what I have read), is that the "Red bureaucracy" was not at all encouraged by Stalin, but I would guess he was not powerful enough to hinder it.
>>74640354
I don't think we can call Lenin an example of democratic principles tbf
>>74640621
>He isn't exploiting the workers. They choose to work there, they can find another job if they don't like it.
They can chose to be exploited by another owner, yes. So free.
>They can even take a loan and create their own business
>If the capitalists didn't make money, there would be no jobs.
You are setting the scenario in a Capitalist World. I am a Communist, I want a revolution. A different system. Which is what I argue for.
>You communists take everything for granted, but have you ever spent a second thinking were all the wealth, all the stuff is coming from?
All the wealth and all the stuff comes from the workers themselves. They should gett all the wealth and all the stuff they create. There will always be managers leading the production, they will get their share too. But nothing more.
>>74641305
Are you not the Norwegian in Petersburg with an economics degree that I've spoken to a few times?
>>74641443
No, is he a Communist?
I have actually lived in St. Petersburg (several years ago).
>>74641588
Ah I doubt he was a communist, he had just moved maybe 6 months ago and gave me advice before I planned my move as we had the same education etc
>>74641016
I havent but the thesis about abolishing the Party seems to be too conspirasy-style.
About real power which Stalin had, we can only guess and leave this question for professional historians.
>>74641020
Of course, in conditions of the civil war, foreign intervention they are not appropriate.
>>74641305
> There will always be managers leading the production, they will get their share too. But nothing more.
How can there be a new business? Or how can an existing business expand if all the wealth goes directly to the workers? Who would pay for a new building? The workers and managers surely don't. They should get all the wealth and all the stuff they create.
>>74622167
Petter er autist.
>>74640657
So you are a communist who is fine with massive wealth inequality, as long as it's along national lines, and the classless society is your version of "trickle down".
It's fine to nationalize a person's business and oust him from it, it's fine to take a person's property so it doesn't go to his children, but all the wealth concentrated in Europe and the US rightfully belongs there, and an outsider can't even enter the country without approval.
Just embrace fascism, you'll fit right in here.
>>74641654
Interesting nevertheless.
>>74641659
Not really, the Communist Party would be the military. You should read some from Yuri Zukhov, I have only read some translations.
>>74641695
>How can there be a new business?
Planned economy
>How can an existing business expand if all the wealth goes directly to the workers?
Planned economy
>Who would pay for a new building?
Planned economy
>>74641715
Hvem er Petter?
>>74633398
>>74641801
You are putting words in my mouth.
I think outsiders should fight to liberate their country. Not go to more successful countries as slaves. I say that immigration is a bad thing for various of reasons, but I have not said that we should let people fleeing from war and imperialism just die.
We should end imperialism, and end war.
>>74622080
because if you dont work even if you can the goverment is going to force you to a unpaid internship that a retarded monkey could do. i have been on welfare in sweden and it sucks. yeah they do pay most of your bills and you end up with around 290$ to buy everything that isnt rent. its not fun to do in combination with the 40hour a week of unpaid work you have to do. you could refuse to do it but then you will have to get by on 160$ a month. and they wont pay for your rent or anything else.
>>74642006
> Planned economy
Still, to pay for the new buildings and new equipment, government has to take the money from somewhere, so all wealth does not directly go to the workers. Or government prints money and causes hyperinflation. The managers or the bureaucrats have tons of possibilities to exploit the planned economy. Requesting unneeded equipment. Salaries for non-existing workers?
If capitalists exploit workers, a planned economy will exploit them too. In a capitalist society you are protected by the state, the police, if your employer doesn't pay you or mistreats you. The police surely won't screw with the people deciding who's salary gets lost.
>>74629516
>Communists don't work.
You fucking imbecile, tell that to my father and his father. They definitely fucking work, probably harder than anyone I've ever known. That doesn't mean Communism would ever work but holy fuck is that retarded.
>>74621997
Nigger, no-one wants to work. Work is just a means to an end.
In modern times, socialists and communists are mainly people who hate Western culture, for whatever reason. they place their faith in a political system which promises a post-cultura utopia. It's basically a religion.
>>74642842
>In a capitalist society you are protected by the state, the police,
You seriously believe in that?
>>74642924
>Muh father
>Appeal to Emotion
>>74630267
Or they're too fucking jaded and dumbed down to fucking do anything, like in the U.S.... Capitalism has failed. I don't know what should replace it but we need a new system here.
>>74643036
In some capitalist societies you are
>>74642183
>We should end imperialism, and end war.
Those are nice sentiments, but the reality is this - in a true global communist revolution, the Norway you love is just another bourgeois neighborhood to be plundered and bulldozed over, its inhabitants put in unmarked graves, as in countless revolutions before.
You and I have done just as much to deserve clean water, a roof, access to technology, as Donald Trump has done to deserve a small loan of a million dollars. Say what you want about the suicidal, anti-nationalist, pro-immigration left, but at least they're consistent in their beliefs.
>>74643086
As long as this "protection" doesnt contradict with interests of rulling elites.
>>74643036
Yes. His country is ruled by law. Your country isn't.
>>74643000
>Nigger, no-one wants to work. Work is just a means to an end.
I like my job. Admittedly I could do my job in 4 hours a day and the rest is presenteeism but still, not bad.
What I'd love is for people to finally admit that 1920s work hours with 2010s technology is stupid and let everyone distance work and have flexible time. No expensive offices except for drop-in centres for meetings and planning, I can knock off at 1PM and go stroll around if I want to and I can pick up work as necessary if anything goes wrong.
>>74643228
Believe it or not some countries don't really have an identifiable ruling elite lol
>>74621997
Are employers/capitalists mainly just faggots that want to own slaves so they can sit around all day eating mayonnaise out of a jar with a spoon while their brains dwindle to nothing and all effort in life is handled by someone else who's forced to serve massa's interests in stead of their own?
It would seem so, OP. It would seem so.
>>74643036
How many people don't get their paychecks? How many people can sue for discrimination, abuse, safety regulations and more? Go wait 10 years for new helmets while your government forces you to build their palaces.
>>74643238
Либepaш, нe влeзaй в paзгoвop co cвoим мaнямиpкoм. Пpocлeдyй кyдa шeл (т.e. в pyблeтpeд). Moжeшь нe oтвeчaть нa этoт пocт.
>>74643314
*instead
>>74634943
>As if that's not what all of us are doing right now as this whole fucking planet goes down the shitter and we argue over who has dumber ideas.
>>74642842
You are talking about a State Capitalist country. In a fully socialist, planned economy, money = work force and resources.
In an ideal socialist economy, a worker will get back what he produces for his own needs and give away the extra goods to less fortunate. Most people will give away the extra good voluntarily, as ideally they are all of the same class. There is no alienation of people.
Does a tribe need money to build a hut? No, they need work force. The people will build the hut voluntarily, because they all live in the hut. Or they are at one with the fellow tribesman that need a hut. Humans are biologically Communists. Families operate Communistic.
In a Capitalist world, families compete, people compete. People become enemies of other people. People are alienated.
>>74643167
1. A Norwegian revolution would be a Norwegian revolution. Not a Swedish revolution, not a Danish revolution.
2. Where have I said I have done more to deserve anything than anybody else?
You are ignoring what I say, and read what you want to read.
>>74643043
Fuck you're right.
It's too broad a stroke to say they don't work. On an ideological level, they want everything to be fair and equal. Not that it would ever work, but to say that they don't want to work is just fucking stupid.
>>74643991
Way too broad a stroke
>>74643624
> In an ideal socialist economy
In an ideal capitalist economy every worker would get a fair wage. You have to look at the possible problems and obstacles.
> Does a tribe need money to build a hut? No, they need work force.
So: is it a planned economy or do people just decide together what they want? Do they use money or not? People act in their self-interest. Providing for your family or your tribe is in your self-interest, because if you didn't do anything, the tribe would kick you out. They are only working together to survive. Once you go beyond that, people want to do what they want, buy what they want and spend time how they want.
