>paper money has no inherent value, fiat currency is absolute trash
>we should trade in shiny rocks instead
>>73943009
the whole point of gold is that it is an element, it is finite, you cant just make gold out of thin air
with fiat currency you can manipulate it however you want
if the currency was redeemable for gold/set a fixed redeemable rate then it is incredibly difficult to manipulate - this protects the person who is holding the fiat currency (us not the jew bankers)
pick up a fucking book idiot
fucking dipshit
how old are you? 12?
>>73943319
>shiny rocks are objectively valuable
>muh hyperinflation
why are goldbugs so deluded?
Are you a Schiffdrone too?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLGoJCmwMlM
>>73943429
they are objectively valuable because of scarcity
>>73943009
>>73943497
>>73943513
>it's shiny and rare
>that means it's productive
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX3D8ATsw_Q
Seriously stop uncritically listening to Peter Schiff
It's embarrassing.
>>73943497
Tons of things are scarce. Heavy shit like Osmium is worth much much much more than gold. But a lot of animals are near extinction, making them rare and scarce. Are they worth a lot? How about unique items like the skull of Prince? The whole thing is made up, just like fiat. Fiat is magic ****because**** you can manipulate it. It's genius.
>>73943716
Literally the only benefit of gold is that it is limited, that's it.
>>73943009
>money supply in an economy should be based on quantity of shiny yellow metal we can mine
Every. Fucking. Time.
>>73943753
all those things you mentioned are valuable because of their scarcity.
i bet osmium has practical utility also i don't know what it is. sounds like it wouldn't have utility as currency if it's so heavy.
rare animals have very high value also.
>>73943753
You could use literally anything with inherent value as money. Doesn't need to be gold. Numbers flying around in a computer have no value.
>>73943958
Fool
It has to be based on something that is hard to get or reproduce. Or it has no inherent value
>>73943787
you could use any metal commodity you wanted that's "rare", but that doesn't change the fact there's nothing inherently superior about gold to fiat money.
Goldbugs just fetishize it because they think it's "pure" or "moral" or some other bullshit.
You could make far more money investing than you could buying up a bunch of shiny rocks to store in your house.
what if there was like no money and everyone just had what they needed like whoa bro makes you think you know
>>73943009
you're right op
we should use eyeballs as the backing for our currency. we'll start with yours, I'll fetch the spoon
>>73944044
>>73943988
>sit on this shiny metal
>don't invest in anything just store this useless metal in a bank because that's totally productive
>>73943716
it has utility as being unreproducible and scarce, non toxic. works as currency.
>>73943319
you seem quite upset
>>73944087
See it's like insulting a religion with these goldbugs
they actually think there's something "moral" about using shiny rocks instead of credit.
>>73943009
>shiny rocks have no inherent value, precious metals are absolutely trash as a base for currency
>we should trade in pieces of paper whose values are manipulated by jews to enrich themselves
>>73944151
i don't know what you're talking about you've missed the argument completely.
Gold as currency is productive if it is more utilitarian than fiat currency.
>>73944015
>Numbers flying around in a computer have no value.
Programmer here.
Actually, they do, because it's heavily implied that P=/=NP.
There are algorithms that make it near-impossible to decrypt value/message/information (AES256 for example). Literally the only way we know how to do it is exhaustive-search, which can take millions of years on our most powerful modern-day machines.
The key to currency is scarcity, and this scarcity can be emulated in digits.
>>73943319
I've been toying with the idea of an energy pegged currency. Whatever means of producing energy, even if it's just human labor, becomes your currency.
If the prices fluctuate in one direction too quickly, you just repeg to a type of energy that is less volatile.
The goal is to eventually get to fusion and proper energy storage.
>>73944155
And it doesn't do anything
it just sort of sits there uselessly being shiny and yellow. Yet you think that gives it more intrinsic value.
>>73944044
You do realize that concept of "value" is entirely subjective and there's no such thing as "inherent" value? There are lots of scarce things that aren't valuable simply because people don't actually want them. Meanwhile, paper money seems to be actually valuable, with people wanting to obtain it and whatnot.
>>73943319
>the whole point of gold is that it is an element, it is finite, you cant just make gold out of thin air
>implying that isn't one of its greatest weaknesses
>>73944287
So is your position that currency has no utilitarian value in general? All you've done is argue against currency as an idea, not something besides gold as a superior placeholder for value.
Are you against trade and specialization too?
The point is that you can't print gold.
>paper currency can't exist without fiat value
>>73944252
Gold currency is the opposite of productive
You are actively "not" using a commodity so you can pass it back and forth instead of using it to build things.
We should trade in a literally useless element Gold has too many uses to just be ingots especially for our video games.
>>73944454
And thus size of your economy is regulated by gold mining.
>>73944497
Same could be said of the paper money is printed on
>>73944438
>currency has no utilitarian value in general?
whatever the government tells you to pay in taxes has value for trade (dollars, euros, etc)
>>73944558
the paper money is required by the government to pay taxes
it will have value as long as the government exists.
>>73944497
you contradicted yourself in your own post. But i'll spell it out so you can see the big picture.
>Gold currency is the opposite of productive
>you can pass it back and forth
Gold is productive as a tool for trade. I'll say it again, are you against currency and trade generally?
>>73944633
Or until people stop buying dollars as a reserve.
Then we'd have Weimar levels of currecy, and the security ribbon on $100 bills would be worth more than the currency itself.
That's why pennies are mostly zinc.
>>73944651
Having your gold just sitting around is not "productive" you're just wasting it
>Gold is productive as a tool for trade.
No it's not it's horribly outdated which is why it was abandoned.
Limiting the size and investment in your economy to the amount of shiny yellow rocks is ludicrous.
Why does it have to be gold? You could base your currency on a group of commodities.
>>73944587
>>73944633
you're making separate arguments.
yes the government will protect the value of its currency.
that does not inherently devalue gold. gold can exist simultaneously as currency because of scarcity. Fundamentally governement currency and gold are both fiat, i'll give you that, I never argued otherwise.
>>73944784
>muh hyper inflaiton
classic
in reality the government can control the value of any currency by manipulating the money supply whenever it feels like it.
>>73944789
Peg your currency to energy. It's the only long term solution.
As long as civilizations exist we will always need energy, whether it's manual labor, oil, natural gas, nuclear fission, fusion, etc.
>>73944789
you're broadening your position to make it too easy.
all i defended was that gold was scarce and therefore had value.
you can say anything whatsoever isn't productive, so it's not relevant to counter my evidence. I can say a car is not productive because fuck it who needs to actually go that fast it's pointless.
>>73943009
Seashells are the only sound medium of exchange
>>73944930
Not if the dollar is no longer used as a reserve currency. My scenario might be completely hypothetical, but it would lead to a massive devaluation of the dollar.
We would no longer be able to print money to pay debts with minimal impact on the value of the dollar, which is what we've been doing.
>>73944972
Energy gets used up. Gold can't be destroyed.
>>73945129
what if someone starts 3D printing seashells with calcium and stuff?
Marijuana..... it should be Marijuana.
:^)
>Auto defeats inflation.
I bet half the people in this thread can't tell me why inflation is bad for banks.
>>73944874
>that does not inherently devalue gold.
It just means there's nothing special about it and no reason to use it beyond some bizarre fascination with the past.
>>73945046
>I can say a car is not productive because
A car gets you too and from places quickly
Gold, besides being used in manufacturing isn't useful as "barter" and hasn't been for centuries.
>>73945163
>lead to a massive devaluation of the dollar
Just like how the Euro is worthless because it's not the world reserve currency
oh wait.
Money would then literally grow on trees.
>>73945335
Inflation isn't bad in general
It's just another boogieman Peter Schiff uses to spook idiots into his dumb gold scam.
>>73945335
BANK RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ALL currency is fiat and has no value, you sperg.
Unless you are trading food and water, its all symbolic for wealth and not actual wealth.
Fuck off back to plebbit pls
>>73945185
That's the point. When there's less energy, doing any kind of work is more expensive, regardless of what your currency is pegged to.
If the price of oil becomes $100 a barrel, everything you buy will increase in price because we use oil to transport almost all goods.
I'm just skipping the middleman and eliminating unnecessary rent seekers, while allowing underdeveloped nations with high populations a chance to compete in a global market by selling their labor.
>>73945335
fixed debt is worth less over time
>>73945365
>A car gets you too and from places quickly
>Gold, besides being used in manufacturing isn't useful as "barter" and hasn't been for centuries.
this is subjective.
you're saying gold is not good currency relative to other options, all i said was that it has value because it is scarce and therefore CAN be used for currency.
since you're missing the point i'm done.
>>73944557
>>73944789
>Second, the amount of gold doesn’t restrict the money supply any more than the supply of rulers would restrict the size of a house you might construct. It merely ensures that money has a fixed, stable value. As Nathan Lewis has pointed out, from 1775 to 1900 the U.S. grew from a small agricultural economy of 2.5 million people to the world’s mightiest industrial nation of 76 million people. During most of that time the dollar was fixed to gold. The global output of gold went up 3.4-fold, yet the U.S.’ money supply burgeoned 163-fold.
>Tying money to gold is simply about setting a stable monetary value. It’s a measure. What virtually all economists fail to grasp today is that you can have a gold-based currency without owning a single ounce of gold. Gold is a barometer. We could set the dollar/gold ratio at, say, $1,100 an ounce. If the price rose above that level, it would mean there was too much money in the economy, and the Fed would tighten. If it dropped below, the Fed would ease.
http://archive.is/kR8eZ
We should trade in human souls.
A human life has a value of about 6mil, so surely poorer fathers and mothers will die to provide security to their family, and we can become the most necromancy friendly nation and raise up our presidents as one massive combined super lich.
>>73945365
The euro is used as a reserve currency, friend. The yen, renminbi, and sdrs have been seeing increased use as a reserve as well.
Nations buy other currencies for the same reasons they buy gold. As a store of value. If they have no confidence in the currency, they will sell their reserves and buy one that they think will be worth keeping.
dae remember trash economy?
>>73944067
Gold is a hedge, not an investment you retard.
Nobody wants to discuss an energy backed currency?
Can I at least get someone to play devil's advocate for me?
I'm still working through the short term goals of currency stability, and would appreciate someone poking holes in my idea.
>>73945550
There's a reason people don't pay for everything in coins anymore
It's because there are far more convenient alternatives
You might as well argue that using a horse and buggy is still a good way to travel
>>73945696
Then you still have all the debt and credit problems that you are trying to avoid by getting rid of fiat money. So then there's literally no reason to switch to gold because the whole "no fractional reserve banking" conceit is useless if you are still going to build credit off a gold supply.
>>73945794
Not as the petro dollar which I assumed was what you were referring to.
>>73946108
>muh gold as a hedge against inflation
how has that worked out for you the last 6 years?
>>73945433
>Schiff
oy vey goyim gold is the only safe option! Come on, would I lie to you?!
>>73944838
our currency is effectively based on resource prices
>>73946198
Well, yes, the dollar is tied to oil. That's my point. That's what makes it so valuable. It's backed by the potential for work. All nations require energy.
And as for reserve currencies I will admit the dollar sees the most widespread use, but countries are starting to sell their dollars and invest in the other currencies I've mentioned.
The only long term solution is energy backed currencies.
>>73946472
It hasn't changed much for years
>>73946198
The money supply is expanding naturally based on demand, not printing money to artificially lower interest rates.
>>73946720
>not printing money
Banks create credit regardless of the system you're in
that means eventually when there's a downturn there's a bank run and all your savings are wiped out. That happened in the US about every 10 years until they got rid of the gold reserve in 1933.
The Gold standard is just outdated and useless and people that attack the FED because they want the gold standard back are on a wild goose chase.
The real reason the FED sucks today is because they act in wall street's interest today and not in the economy's interest.
>>73944399
>water has no inherent value despite being necessary for life
>>73947209
It has marginal utility not objective utility
http://study.com/academy/lesson/diamond-water-paradox-in-economics-definition-examples.html
>>73946704
Looks like a downward trend.
Confidence was shaken in the dollar after 2001.
>>73947332
>inherent value
>marginal utility versus objective utility
pick one topic
