I've been reading up on Sowell, watching his debates/interviews on youtube, etc., yet I haven't found a coherent refutation that isn't a leftist fallacy. Is he simply stating facts in his books? (I study physics, not economics)
Tl;dr: is this man infallible, or am I not looking hard enough?
>>73764020
Lets be careful with the left vs right dichotomy in economics.
I am a national socialist.
>>73764654
All communists and fascists should be excluded from political discourse on the grounds of mental incapacity
>>73764654
National socialists are economically leftist. They aren't called socialist for nothing
>>73764654
Nationalist economy is leftist economic policy.
>>73764020
When someone asks a factual statement that he doesn't want to answer, he always go to "muh poor"
For example the shrinking of middle class or some debates concerning how middle class work for more time than ever while their purchase power is being decreased. He always ignores the question (i.e. Middle class) and talks about how capitalism is better for the poor, Look poor have refrigerators!!
I think he does this intentionally, He knows that there will be 2 classes in his world, the very rich and the very poor. Since he belongs to the first and thinks latter should be gratefull for barely existing he has no problem with it. But middle class still exists and there he cannot state the truth that there will be less middle class folk in the future.
Thats his Achilles foot. I saw it more than once. At least objectivist openly say fuck them. This guy knows the truth but conceals it
>>73765648
What created the middle class in the first place? The answer to that I will wager lines up with everything Sowell advocates.
>>73765648
But he dismantles this narrative (rich vs. poor) by citing that 54% of americans will be in the top 10% at some point in their lives ( usually when they are old)
>>73764020
He is a house nigger, like all the neoconservatives.
>>73765889
But he is a libertarian, not a neo-con
Thomas Sowell:
http://www36.zippyshare.com/v/dAp0qb0S/file.html
http://www104.zippyshare.com/v/md2I0R8m/file.html
http://www24.zippyshare.com/v/MbSXPuGf/file.html
>>73765648
>have refrigerators!!
Yeah, capitalism raises the standard of living.
For example, I'd rather be poor in my country
than in your country or any other country that
isn't economically efficient.
>>73765312
>>73765437
Because national socialism is the only viable form of socialism.
In-group communities are the only ones that can succeed in a socialist economy.
>Higher levels of trust & commitment
>Similar goals, values, intelligence levels
>in groups will shame members who try to leech, and get them back on track
>>73765234
>>73764020
*All libertarians should be excluded from political discourse on the grounds of mental incapacity
Libertarians are the greatest proof out there of the Dunning-Kruger effect. They think they understand everything about economics when they understand next to nothing.
inb4 neolibs shilling for Peter Schiff, Mises, and gold.
Many of the things he says are supported by very basic economic principles, but even in people who study economics feeling often win over. Jerry Brown understands...
"Economically, minimum wages may not make sense. But morally, socially, and politically they make every sense "
— Jerry Brown, my fucking governor
Libertarian philosophy and free market capitalism is a flawed system and a meme philosophy.
You can show them every piece of empirical evidence that ever existed on income inequality, regulatory policy, government intervention and almost everything under the sun and they will give you a BS response that is basically "muh logic".
>>73766423
>muh inequality
you fucked up m8
Based Maggie will set you straight
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okHGCz6xxiw
>>73764020
Not infallible, just logical. Something the left is largely incapable of.
>>73765937
He has some pretty neocon values when it comes to foreign policy.
>>73766764
>logical
nothing about his economics is logical since he is a dumbshit libertarian who would be more than happy to flood the west with shitskins for "muh GDP". Fuck him he is a sellout big time too joining the pro spic illegal immigration console of cucks known as the national review
>>73766602
>every piece of empirical evidence
I've been in countless libertarian threads and never seen such a thing presented by you statists.
>>73766410
Cuck
Love whenever people talk about the wages of the past they use household wages even though households have gotten smaller and smaller.
>>73766901
You, my good man, are a fool.
And you're from Canada, so you don't really count.
>>73767052
>And you're from Canada, so you don't really count.
He is a sell out house nigger who couldn't give to shits about his race and shills for pro spic immigration neo con jews. You are probably a low IQ beaner yourself so thats why you love him.
>>73766901
>flood the west with shitskins
That's not what libertarians mean when advocating open borders.
The problem and failure of most libertarians tho, is that they advocate for open borders and muh GDP without explaining the policy changes required, such as abolishing all welfare and affirmative action, removing gun laws and in consequence lowering or abolishing most taxes.
They know these things, but only advocate for open borders, then get mad when people don't understand their implications even tho they never explained them.
I am a libertarian too, but I think most of them are blinded by the ideology and can not into realpolitik. In a way they are like 4chan atheists - holier than thou fedora tippers and that is their greatest problem.
>>73766423
I hate statistics like these because so many variables are in play. The "Keynesian" part includes post WWII with a significant labor shortage and large government spending on repairing and creating infrastructure. Most of that period was also on a gold standard and was prior to the welfare state. More government spending does not necessarily equate to more economic success if that's what your argument is.
>>73766423
>1951-1974
>rest of the world still recovering from the world wars while America's economy is stronger then ever allowing it to dominate the market in the majority of consumer goods in most of the world
>1981 - 2008
>other major economies have recovered enough to be serious competition for American businesses even in America itself
Yeah I'm sure it was all to do with what economic policy the government was pursuing at the time, nothing to do with the state of the world economy as a whole, Americas extremely unique economic position after WW2 had nothing to do with it's economic success over the next two decades at all, it was all just a coincidence.
Please.
>>73766674
>I want to live in an oligarchy
typical neoliberal retard
>>73767355
>high wages and building infrastructure is bad
kek
>>73767361
All the west did amazing
It was a relative golden age compared to today.
you neolibs shills should try harder. Next you'll start lecturing me on the benefits of mass immigration just like every other dumbfuck libertarian.
>>73766922
>muh roads!
>you're all anarchists! No shut up you are!
>modern America is a perfectly representative example of libertarian ideology!
>Ayn Rand was a shit writer!
>muh jews!
>muh niggers!
How were you not overwhelmed by all these amazing pieces of empirical evidence?
>>73767502
I guess my meme ideology was just too strongly ingrained into my brain by feudal neoconservative jews who used their monopolies to buy all the babies and put them in the water supply so everyone is forced to be a slave to the 1%.
>>73767470
>All the west did amazing
Not as well as America was doing, that was truly exceptional. You know Britain was still rationing things in '51 because of how fucked their economy still was from the war? Your country had to institute a whole government program to try and speed up the recovery of the other western countries fucked up economies.
>you neolibs shills should try harder.
Not even one of those it's just you're obviously talking shit, to overlook the fact so much of the world was still recovering from the war which America was never directly effected by at that same time and just attribute it to keynesianism is extremely intellectually dishonest.
>>73765807
I would argue the GI bill (educating a generation who had no business getting educated) and the post-industrial revolution hitting hard, forcing the need for skilled labour to remain competitive between nations, the rise of cities and people working in them.
The past 300 years have been a weird blip in history. Remember before then it's mostly nobility and peasantry.
The early Greek state of Athens is a good example of how this is a natural human ordering.
>When Demetrius of Phalerum conducted a population census in 317 BC the population was 21,000 free citizens, plus 10,000 resident aliens and 400,000 slaves
Historians will look back on present day and say something like:
>When the US Census Bureau conducted a population census in 2016 CE the population was 11,000,000 creditor citizens, plus 308,000,000 debtor citizens
Remember the elite class has made life on this planet now solely about material wealth, and if you have 5-10million dollars you can live anywhere you want on the planet and let your money work for you, making you more money. You are in effect nobility. For the vast number of everyone else you lie somewhere on a debt/slave line, from actual human slaves to what we call the middle class, those in debt until they retire from work and spend all of their savings on health care and staying alive.
>>73765648
Turkey understands, probably because he sees a level of income inequality in his every day life that makes him very angry.
>>73767693
It's funny how da joos both run the world and love libertarianism and yet not one western country has any libertarian party of any sort of significance, not one, and if anything the popular parties are about as un-libertarian as you can possibly get restricting both economic and personal freedom with equal ferocity. Sort of like how they love people smoking weed and then get it banned worldwide and send people to prison for selling it, because that's what you'd do if you wanted people to start smoking weed.
>>73764020
> not looking hard enough
You're performing confirmation bias upon yourself. If you really approach his statements with an open mind to determine what is fact and what is broadly logical, most of his shit falls apart at the seems.
Unless, of course, some of his soundbites are what you wanted to hear to begin with. Most of his work will disappear in the shitpile of history. He's more of an Uncle Tom Rand who has found a way to make money off imbeciles.
But, you know. Do your own research. "Studying physics" is not the same thing as being a scientist or a research scientist. Any autist can memorize and parrot shit that other people have done ... whether it's correct or not. Make sure you pay close attention to those distinctions when evaluating your own abilities as well as the words other people publish for shekels.
>>73764020
Economics isn't a science. It isn't based on facts. It's based on predictions that themselves are based on assumptions. And those assumptions are always political in nature.
In otherwords, he's just tickling your confirmation bias.
I recommend reading other economists including those that directly contradict him.
>>73767341
>flood the west with shitskins
> That's not what libertarians mean when advocating open borders.
Actually ... that is EXACTLY what they are advocating. Libtardtarians are generally just too fucking stupid to think through what they are advocating beyond the sentence they are currently attempting to construct.
>>73767712
>You know Britain was still rationing things in '51 because of how fucked their economy still was from the war?
Because of austerity enacted by the UK. Just because Keynes was a Brit doesn't mean the UK practiced his philosophy. The US did however.
>keynesianism is extremely intellectually dishonest.
The neolib rejection of keynesianism is intellectually dishonest as they pretend the policies that built up the west after WW2 magically "didn't happen."
They think the recovery just magically "fell out of the sky" from nothing.
According to neolib thinking the best way to have rebuilt the west after WW2 would have been to outsource all our jobs to China and slash employee wages, and end all government stimulus.
>>73767341
>is that they advocate for open borders and muh GDP without explaining the policy changes required, such as abolishing all welfare and affirmative action, removing gun laws and in consequence lowering or abolishing most taxes.
Libertarians deny the reality that is genetics. No policy, no system, can overcome the inherent need for people to be with their own.
He's pretty awesome
But one of his latest articles about Donald was really shitty
Check one of Stef's videos where he rebuts it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yyoauXmzjg
>>73768030
Thanks, anon for that last bit, very inspirational.
As for the confirmation bias, I'm literally looking for arguments against his and all I've found are liberal memes.
>>73767470
Oligarchy can only be sustained through the state.
>>73765648
I know this is deep turkroaching but ok.
>For example the shrinking of middle class or some debates concerning how middle class work for more time than ever
No they don't, people before 1900 worked until Saturdays and even Sundays and the extra hours were never actually payed. Throught years of negociation and the rise of new forms of industrial organization human labour is not so needed/usefull anymore so people have more time for themselves.
>while their purchase power is being decreased
Their purchasing power is still quite high, by definition middle class is someone who earns enough money to live, to save and to waste. Therefore the power to acquire new things is still high. Just look at what you needed to be considered middle class in 1960 Car, fridge, TV and a hause. Today the level of things you can get by yourself is just amazing; smartphone, PC, consoles, TV, cars and you can even double some of them. What actually happened was an economic crisis but the basic purchasing power is still there and growing, we just need to wait until everything recovers again.
> how capitalism is better for the poor
I will let you choose, Panama or Cuba, in which country would you prefer to be poor? In panama you can still get your Iphone, your hause and travel freely or invest your money as you desire which in turns results in a healthy economy where money is always flowing. In Cuba you're allowed to have a hause and a car and unless you're part of the oligarchy, don't try to stick your head too high or they will cut it... since they can't allow private power to the smallfolk or there would be economic classes "again"
>the very rich and the very poor
If things come to that, it would be more like: there would be 3 people in the world; politicians, people sanctioned by the politicians; and the rest. So you don't have to worry about people getting richer, you have to worry about the goverment protecting that people in name of "stability", Ex: Pan am.
>>73768161
>>keynesianism is extremely intellectually dishonest.
I didn't say keynseianism is extremely intellectually dishonest just your complete and utter ignoring of the economic climate at the time is extremely intellectually dishonest, as is your complete misrepresentation of what I said right now. Are you actually this much of a moron or are you doing this professionally?
>>73768161
>Because of austerity enacted by the UK.
And as well all know austerity is something you put in place when your economy is doing "amazing" (your own words >>73767470
), thanks for proving my point retard.
>>73768781
*complete and utter denial of the economic climate
>>73768508
I would like this if it didn't include that faggot traitor.
>>73764020
He's an anti-Trump lolbergtarian
>>73768082
But current decisions are largely based on past events i.e. patterns of economic behavior we can observe and connect to policies enacted at that specific time. no? Meaning, disregarding the politics of it, we can objectively assess what will be "good" or "bad" for the economy to an extent, correct?
>>73766423
>My economic system works in the short term
>Ah ha! I told you everything else sucks because everything after me suck
>>73768966
But you can bet your sweet tits that he will vote Trump come election time :^)
>>73768587
Home ownership is the one thing you're missing amongst your iPods and Xboxes categorization
The cost of homes in the United States is out of control and home ownership is far more important than vehicle ownership
>>73769105
He'll vote Gary Johnson just like the rest of the self righteous libertarians who will defend free trade to the death even when it means destroying a nation's working class
>>73769125
>sleeping in the gutter
>haven't eaten for a week
>no medical insurance
>but hey at least I can still play angry birds on my phone
Get your priorities straight anon, jeez.
>>73767712
Holy shit reckt harder than fresh virgin pussy on prom night!
>>73768270
When have libertarians proposed that people should not be with their own?
Stop making up strawmen, it's making you look stupid.
Libertarians support open borders, but you only ever apply that idea to 3rd world immigrants and refugees (because that's what the left does). You fail to see the broad implications which also means open borders for wealthy and white people, and you fail to see the consequences of abolishing welfare, aka incentives for 3rd world uneducated immigrants.
I sound like a libtard now but you are just not open minded enough to actually understand what we want.
Libertarians also support freedom of association and freedom of speech, which means you wouldn't have to interact with brown people or their son ever again.
In libertarianism, you could literally found your own city and make it white people only and nobody could stop you as long as you didn't violate others rights. And if it's your city and you own the land you get to decide who comes in.
Libertarianism is a better ally for racist nationalists than anybody else, because there can't be discrimination laws.
But you would rather keep dreaming the pipe dream of going back 100 years and have strong nationalist governments who kick out everyone (or genocide them) It's not realistic, people have already mixed too much, and the next genocide will be done by the left against nationalists.
>>73769361
Hard to imagine a kraut typing this
>>73769125
>home ownership is far more important than vehicle ownership
Well my country usually owns these things, but as far as I know wasn't hauses in the US cheaper? The only problem was having more than one because taxes.
>>73769247
>sleeping in the gutter
>Get a better one you idiot.
>haven't eaten for a week
>We live in a time were food is cheap as fuck, if you value electronic entertaiment over your nourishment then the problem is yours.
>no medical insurance
>As far as I know respectable jobs in the US that gives you acces to middle class life includes some form of health insurance, for anything else complain to the FDA and medical regulations.
>but hey at least I can still play angry birds on my phone
>Yeah I know, awesome right?
>Get your priorities straight anon, jeez.
I do, I try to save first and expend later. Thats how I can pay mortages, even with less economic power this small rule can still be applied effectively.
>>73768508
>le all government is evil meme
no
non white/leftist government is evil
>ignoring of the economic climate at the time
The government's adoption of idiotic policies (austerity) was the real cause of stagnation, much like the EU's current sorry neolib situation.
>>73768877
>And as well all know austerity is something you put in place when your economy is doing "amazing"
Austerity was the cause of all the economic problems, not the reaction. once that was dropped the UK's economy grew.
>>73769079
>short term
>30 years
while the neoliberal model has worked well never because it's a retarded ideology based around a child's fear of the public debt boogeyman.
>>73769459
What are you implying?
>>73769361
>Libertarians support open borders
Actshually... no, it depends who you ask.
If a country is a colective property or an individual property(monarchy) it means that people have the right to regulate who enters or not in such property.
It depends on the interpretation.
>>73764020
Reading my third sowell book currently, I'm not sure if I'm being jewed and brainwashed but the simple ways he comes to conclusions seem so natural and straightforward I don't feel as though I'm being convinced of something I didn't know but rather shown something I always did.
>>73769544
>wasn't hauses in the US cheaper? The only problem was having more than one because taxes.
It used to be that way, probably still cheaper than Europe yet still out of reach for people in their 20s unless you want a "fixer-upper" (you don't)
Now if you want cheap housing you've got to live in a rural area or one of the poorer areas of town
My parents bought their most recent house for $600k and it's only 4000 square feet and that's really cheap compared to some areas
>>73769544
Do you not know what hyperbole is? How did I know that one of you fucking idiots would come back with this exact fucking
>>sleeping in the gutter
>Get a better one you idiot.
What? A better gutter? What exactly is this better thing that someone who can't pay their rent is going to choose over sleeping in the gutter?
>We live in a time were food is cheap as fuck,
Thanks to massive government subsidies to food producers, if those go away so does the cheap food.
>if you value electronic entertaiment over your nourishment then the problem is yours.
What if I told you that the post was intended as sarcasm and was not by actual viewpoint?
>>no medical insurance
>As far as I know respectable jobs in the US that gives you acces to middle class life includes some form of health insurance, for anything else complain to the FDA and medical regulations.
What if I can't get one of those "respectable" jobs anon, what if I can't get a job at all? Yeah I know it's just laziness, funny how huge numbers of people just suddenly decide to be lazy the moment a reccession hits and then stop being lazy once the economies doing well again, must just be one of those coincidences.
>I do, I try to save first and expend later. Thats how I can pay mortages, even with less economic power this small rule can still be applied effectively.
Yeah you totally misunderstood what I was saying in that post, maybe you need to work on your english. Let me put it in simpler terms: it doesn't matter if I can buy an xbox if I can't actually afford the rent on the house I'd need to store said xbox in, trying to show how good people have it by pointing to frivolous consumer goods is fucking idiotic, rent, groceries, insurance etc. are all still huge expenses for the average person and all this wondrous capitalism hasn't actually changed that much, in fact if anything you had more secure housing under feudalism because the land owned you technically, you could hardly get evicted.
>>73769568
>Austerity was the cause of all the economic problems, not the reaction. once that was dropped the UK's economy grew.
So why did they put the austerity in place initially?
>>73769618
just surprised the government still lets you post mean things about brown people.
>>73769628
Free trade is still considered a cornerstone of libertarian belief, in fact you can't even be called a libertarian without support for free trade, and that can be just as bad for a nation as open borders
>>73769618
gee i wonder
http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/13/europe/germany-refugees-shubert/index.html
such tolerant, yes germany
>>73769948
*this exact fucking response
>>73769948
>Thanks to massive government subsidies to food producers, if those go away so does the cheap food.
That used to be the case but modern agricultural techniques have virtually ensured cheap food even without subsidies
And most subsidies are used as a form of trade protectionism, for instance the massive corn subsidies here. They weren't given to make corn products cheaply available they were given to keep out foreign competitors, especially Caribbean sugar cane in this case
>>73766410
I still don't have a clear understanding of what a national socialist economy actually looks like. I did some reading and found something about Germany issuing vouchers against debt for performing work for the state? I don't get it
>>73770151
It's essentially "socialism in one country"
>>73764654
Nazis were economic illiterates
All of their programs were funded, quite literally, by what would be called today venture capitalists in the USA and elsewhere
>>73769628
Yes, but you can also regulate to keep them open.
The point is, and that is where the misunderstandings come from, that the open borders idea gets thrown around without explaining the requirements.
For example, if every nation was libertarian, the borders could be open because everyone would be free of oppression more or less, and the only incentives to migrate would be cultural or entrepreneurial, in individual cases personal (marriage, really liking the swedish landscape or w/e).
But the reality is that no country is libertarian and people are oppressed everywhere and get in wars with their government who gets into wars with other governments, or who creates welfare and socialism creating incentives to migrate for gibsmedats.
Basically, libertarians (mostly) support open borders, but they leave out the part where they only do so in an idealistic world where their state is completely libertarian or even the entire world.
It's especially stupid to advocate the idea in this way whilst a huge migration crisis is happening, because people will automatically assume that this is the kind of migration libertarians advocate, which is obviously bullshit. But you can see it on /pol/ too - it used to be pretty libertarian until the crisis started to get really bad.
It's just really bad 'advertising' by libertarians, who are too fedora to get of their high horse on explain themselves properly. In a way they are like libtards and their moral superiority complex.
But in reality, the entire migrant crisis is caused by government oppression and overreach and disregard for laws.
>>73769994
They better don't tread on my shitposting abilities!
>>73764020
Thomas Sowell is one of the best minds America has. And while he is without a doubt very smart. It is not because of his intellect alone that is great. It is because of his absolute intellectual honesty. Especially in a field or fields that is prone to be pushed into political answers.
>>73769991
why did the EU put austerity in place?
Because they're idiots.
>>73769948
>>73770016
You know there are IDs right?
>what hyperbole is?
And you know how to express it right?
>What? A better gutter? What exactly is this better thing that someone who can't pay their rent is going to choose over sleeping in the gutter?
If you can't pay your rent you're not middle class. Middle class is a person who can actually save money, poor people is what you're talking about.
>Thanks to massive government subsidies to food producers, if those go away so does the cheap food.
The tremendous use of fertilizers, genetic manipulation and free market is what ends up creating almost a surplus of food. Goverment just fucks up this cycle by destroying competition.
>What if I told you that the post was intended as sarcasm and was not by actual viewpoint?
Yes you could, but then I could tell you that treating sarcasm as logically and normally as possible is a form of absurdism.
>What if I can't get one of those "respectable" jobs
Then you're not middle class, you will have to wait before a position opens, get your own with the risky operation of autonomous work or invest and suffer in experience/education to access that job.
>by pointing to frivolous consumer goods is fucking idiotic
People buy frivolous things, not everyone is dedicated to bettering themselves. Some people just want to live for the present and if they're happy with it no one should judge them for that. Capitalism is about choices after all, if you choose frivolous things instead of saving/investment when the shit times comes at least don't act surprised.
>>73770151
>>73770252
For an example of what is closest to a National Socialist economy in the modern era you should look to Venezuela. Strong Military leader takes control of a country and implements socialist reforms to the country. Instills patriotic fervor in the nation's people. Outcome after about 2 decades of the policies is predictable.
>>73770527
I think that's what I have come to admire about him. He breaks down an opposing view without misrepresenting it.
>>73764020
>FUN FACT:
Thomas Sowell is now advocating for millitary coups, and he's not wrong (albeit the coup will be in favour of Trump against the Supreme Court):
>"As this country continues to degenerate, we hope that it never reaches the desperate stage where only a military coup can rescue it from catastrophes created by feckless politicians. But, if that day ever arrives, we can only hope that the military will do their duty and step in. It is one of the few institutions dedicated to something besides individual self-interest."
http://spectator.org/articles/66174/military-coup-our-future
>>73770715
He has admitted his nihilism with regards to the future of the US though, so I believe it.
>>73770646
Actually Israel is far and away the most national socialist nation on earth
>>73770706
He has some good books. His basic principles of economics is great for anyone who hasn't studied economics.
Another great one is "Black Redneck, White Liberal" which talks about several different topics really. But one of the main ones he addresses and what the book itself is entitled for, is the culture of Black America. And he makes the argument that what happened is Black America adopted the culture of Southern Rednecks, who adopted the culture of poor people from Northern England, Scotland, and parts of Ireland, rather than the English Culture. He goes on further to argue that this contributes a lot to the bad group outcomes seen in Black communities.
>>73770903
Israel has a relatively free economy. Israel is definitely one of the most ethnically nationalist countries though. I will agree with that.
>>73770933
The first black man to say "niggers, no nigging" I love it
>>73771027
Although, I shouldn't put that in quotes
>>73765882
This, the big divide between the poor and rich is dismantled when you look at people over their lifetimes rather than at a single point.
>A University of Michigan study showed that most of the working people who were in the bottom 20 percent of income earners in 1975 were also in the top 40 percent at some point by 1991. Only 5 percent of those in the bottom quintile in 1975 were still there in 1991, while 29 percent of them were now in the top quintile.
When things are looked at in terms of flesh and blood, things look a lot different when you realize comparing a 40yr old to a 20yr old student who, assuming adulthood starts at 18, has 10x the experience. When you follow that 20yr old student to the end of his life and they go from negative worth to the top 10% are they part of the evil rich? There is no bracket more transient than the 1%
>>73770568
>You know there are IDs right?
I think the second post was him correcting a typo he made in the original, not him samefagging to help support his argument by another person.
Now please continue arguing, I'm enjoying the read
