First of all, let me say that I HATE welfare.
UBI at least doesnt make people into liers, cheaters and leeches.
it is upfront: here is money, you can fuckoff with it. But if you still become a criminal despite us taking care of your basic survival needs, then all bets really are off
right now we have liberals crying foul everytime some poor disadvantaged nigger is put in prison
"oh it was just the environment"
UBI takes care of it all
No excuses
everyone starts with the same plate
I honestly think most of these corruption cases happen because people believe they need to take care of themselves
with UBI the fear of dying on the streets is gone and people can be more impartial in their work
less sucking up, more honesty - it has tons of advantages we dont even think of
People are hesitant to tell their bosses that idea X stinks if they literally live hand to mouth or they have 4 kids. Rather just stay silent and keep going.
I honestly believe that most corruption is the result of people simply being afraid for their lives - they literally think (correctly) that they lose their lives if they lose their jobs
without a job, you dont have a source of income. People are deathly afraid of it
so they try to accumulate more money - aka a safety net
many people do this even if its illegal - you only have 1 life to lose.
welfare causes class warfare
UBI isnt welfare, it's a form of safety net that is universal. Even working people get it
UBI should be VERY low, dont get me wrong. It should be like $400 per month
you wouldnt be able to live (alone) on UBI in most places
but it does let you survive
I expect entire communities to arise which aim to only survive on UBI. Thats fine, there will always be people who have no intention to do real work for society and at least then they will be out of the way instead of clogging up companies
Getting moneyfrom WELFARE disincentivizes work
UBI does not disincentivize as much as getting ur welfare approved and keeping it approved is a form of work (or stealing, which is also a form of "work")
Most people who are opposed to this, have only these two alternative stances:
1. welfare is fine
2. we need to force people to work or let them die on the streets or let them become criminals and then we deal with them if they fuck up
I will address mostly #2, because #1 is clearly not fine. Nobody wants to be forced to pay for somebody else's existence, it is unfair and injust.
#2 is what the nazis do. How do you force a 400lbs woman to work? You have to cage her up somewhere where no friends can bring her food and she cant get any herself and then force her to work out, eat the correct and correct amount of food.
That is clearly not a good way for society and wont work out. You cant "force" people to work like this, you cant "force" people to be normal productive members of society. For most of history this wasnt a problem, people were naturally forced to provide for themselves or they would literally just die.
This isnt the case anymore, now people dont want #2 to happen, it's seen as nazi and barbaric when so much wealth exists in the world.
So how incentivize work while still not letting people die?
The answer is UBI
If you think UBI will act as a valid defense for equality then you are dreaming. They will just continue to blame the systemic racism they believe is present in society.
Additionally, the lack of a basic income drives people to succeed and work hard to do it, taking away that underlying stimulus will eradicate the subsequent response (not in all cases, but likely the majority) and we can lose out on many advancements. The most clever advancements come out of nowhere, not the super IQ think tanks.
>>73694951
>They will just continue to blame the systemic racism they believe is present in society.
of course they will but that defense wont hold up anymore. Now we can tell them: Hey, EVERYBODY gets the same and you CAN survive with it.
There is no excuse anymore.
Regarding your second point: Yes, a fear of death does drive people but it also drives them to bad places. I have suggested in my OP that much corruption probably happens because people believe that they are ultimately not taken care of and they have to have some kind of safety not.
Welfare is not a sure thing by any means, it can get approved or declined or outlawed at any time for any reason.
It might be the worst system possible.
Also how long do you think a low UBI will stand until people are protesting for more? Or electing politicians who offer them more? Wen does it stop? When you open that box, it never gets closed, remember that.
400 turns into 500, turns into 750, turns into 1000 and so on. This has happened with EVERY entitlement ever created.
>>73694498
why $400? why not $401? why not $402? why not $4,000?
if every one has $400 free a month, lets say in australia that $400 per person = an extra 5% of GDP created from nothing in that month, all it will do is push up prices by on average 5%. this increase will push up commonly purchased/consumed items such as milk up way more than luxury goods. In effect you'd make the market less affordable for lower income earners on this base wage.
>>73695139
Everyone gets the same help now. In fact, affirmative action, diversity quotas, and lowered standards negatively affect certain demographics while propping up others and it's still not enough. It'll never be enough, people will just make up new reasons to complain and to think that this won't happen is very naive.
People do not need a safety net. That's not how capitalism works. It's a free market, little waste, efficient as possible. It doesn't have room for dead weight. It's a cultural change that needs to take place. A safety net has made it possible to be a single mother and not go to school, which then turns into more safety nets to catch all the unqualified people the system creates.
>>73695147
but that's the beauty of it: a high UBI is a single point of failure. It's in the public eye.
Now we have massive, complicated systems of welfare that are bottomless pits for money.
Government even has an incentive to increase the UBI if it can indeed afford it: why not?
Remember: Workers also receive UBI. EVERYBODY does.
If a higher UBI is possible, go for it.
This is the worst most toxic leftist cuck idea I've ever heard. Pay people for nothing
>>73695397
The government has no incentive to do this. Increase wages yields increased costs. The government has no morning, remember it makes it out of thin air at interest and takes it in taxes. What's the point?
The country is in debt and doesn't have money to just give away for free, especially when it becomes more worthless everyday. It's a cycle that doesn't end
UBI turns human beings into lazy, uneducated animals, basically, niggers. If you get something for free, it will spoil you inevitably.
Despite this, UBI will happen. Here's my suggestion: instead of giving people money for nothing, cut working hours AND salaries. The government would give out the money people lose this way but not for free: you'd basically get salary for self improvement. Learning, doing sports etc.
>>73695552
>Increase wages yields increased costs
> The government has no morning
what dude?
>>73695640
what does it solve? You dont even need to make UBI high enough for you to survive on. Start at $50 a month and see if it's a system that can work.
For people who dont work, it's a net sum they can invest in education, buying materials etc.
For peole who do work, it's a simple raise.
>>73694498
anyone who thinks this is a bad idea is an antihuman piece of shit with no fucking conception of the future our society faces.
>>73694951
>The most clever advancements come out of nowhere
Almost any advancement in human history was made by people who came from a socioeconomic class that allowed them to not worry about how to put food on the table day to day. Even those known for coming from modest backgrounds to universal fame (eg, Napoleon) weren't exactly poor.
I have no idea why conservatives believe that human advancement is contingent on the fear of starving or becoming homeless.
i hope some country somewhere tries this out, but as it stands I can't trust the general populace to not be lazy shits with it
I will remember everyone that 75% percent of money the American government spends on welfare programs is just the paycheck of the bureaucrats in charge of administering it and only 25% actually ends handed out to the supposed recipients, whereas in private charities it's 80-90% of the money received that is spent in the recipients plus 5-10% for the required fund raising.
Government spending to help the poor simply does not work.
>>73696652
That is one of the arguments for UBI. Much of the costs of running welfare programs comes from maintaining a bureaucracy to enforce a list of requirements. In theory, UBI is meant to be simple because you just send a uniform check to everyone.
>>73694498
and where exactly does the money come from?
>>73696652
that itself is a perfect example of a whole bunch of people who work jobs that they clearly dont even intend to do properly
UBI has another great incentive for the government itself:
In a very real way the government is actually a welfare leech. We pay the government and it does almost nothing in return. It doesnt even run a profit.
With UBI we give the government a job to do: Make us rich. Actually fucking do your job and make money so that our UBI can increase.
We dont just want you to run a zero deficit, we want you to hire people to use the vast mountains, forests, rivers etc to accumulate wealth for the people who inhabit it and pay the government to exist.
Think about it: The government is the biggest bum of us all, the biggest employer in most countries and the most wasteful spender
>>73697119
think of it like this: the goverment should make money because it doesnt have any way to make money, that is the job of the economy. Everytime the govement gets involved into the economy it gets worse.
Look at all these long gibs posts. Fuck you, get a job.
>>73694498
I have to vote on 11 issues this June. Forming an informed opinion on all those things is gonna take some time and since I am lazy I'll let pol decide what to vote on universal basic income.
Text of the law in the constitution:
>Art. 110a (new) Unconditional basic income
> 1. The Confederation shall ensure the introduction of an unconditional basic income.
> 2. The basic income shall enable the whole population to live in human dignity and participate in public life.
> 3. The law shall particularly regulate the way in which the basic income is to be financed and the level at which it is set.
http://bien.ch/en/node/813
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_referendums,_2016#Basic_income_referendum
http://www.strawpoll.me/10184823
I'll check back in an hour and vote whatever the poll says.
>>73694498
Don't be too sure that the liberals will stop blaming the environment if niggers keep doing crimes, even though everyone has the same amount of money. You underestimate how deep and delusional cultural marxism really is. "White privilege" is not just about money at all.
>>73697119
>eradicate welfare
>welfare bureaucrats now need welfare
its a vicious cycle man
>>73694498
Why not just reduce the taxes, then? Same effect.
>>73694498
>Universal
Stopped reading right there. Every State has a different cost of living and you clearly don't know anything about the US besides what you see on TV or online. If individual States want to adopt and suffer the hit to their own economy, whatever.
>>73695772
>what does it solve?
Nothing, because companies lay people off and raise prices to compensate. That is why minimum wage has no effect other than negative. The only reason there are so many calls for universal income in the US currently is because Obama wrecked the job market with his policies. Universal income doesn't help the poor, it just gets people fired and makes their cost of living go up. Available jobs help the poor.
>>73695772
It is bad for people physically and spiritually not to work. Just look at replicated studies on retirement, dementia and mortality. If manufacturing jobs go to robots, then research, medical or other services can be expanded. UBI is a terrible idea.
>>73694498
I'm coming around to this idea, but only with a flat tax so it's fair for the rich. Everyone pays 15% of their income to the government and everyone gets money back in the form of UBI so that poor people get lots of their tax back.
>>73694866
>Nobody wants to be forced to pay for somebody else's existence, it is unfair and injust.
Oh and where will the UBI come from?
Granted, it would allow to get rid of a lot of expensive bureaucracy by abolishing all other welfare, but it would still cost a shitload of money.
But that's not even the problem.
The single biggest issue with UBI is the same as with regular welfare: people are not fiscally responsible, frugal. They waste money on stupid shit and then have nothing left over for food.
If everyone got a paycheck of X at the start of the month, most people would squander it in the first week and then still demand more welfare.
Maybe you could stagger it so people only get like 5 bucks a day every day, but that brings other issues...
>>73694498
Where does this ~140 billion per month come from?
>>73701379
When will idiots be allowed to kill themselves again?
>>73701088
So if someone got laid off from a manufacturing or natural resource job after age 30, you think they should just learn a new skill or go to college to be competitive?
I wonder what /pol/s opinion about UBI in the context of automation is as a whole. I don't think mass automation will happen for awhile yet, but eventually UBI will have to exist.
>>73701942
People get laid off precisely because of things like minimum wage. Again, like I said, this is all related to Obama destroying job growth in this country with his socialistic practice.
Just kick out the brown people and you can have all dem programs you want.
>>73701629
Never, as long as there is a state. And when there isn't, the idiots will form a new one to take your shit.
>>73700635
Where did OP say anything about the US?
>>73698755
https://archive.is/m9TnF
Voted yes.
>>73703063
There has been a state for a hundreds of years and people have starved for most of them.
>>73703456
Cost of living varies from region to region in every other country too.
