How does Turkey get away with being so secular?
I visited Istanbul last week. It was surprisingly... pleasant. The people were kind, the food was amazing, the culture was interesting.
But most of all, I was surprised to see women walking around with coverings on their heads. Sure, some were, but many (I'd say at least half), weren't. Not only that, I saw a lot of people drinking alcohol, including some type of white alcoholic beverage that was delicious (can't remember the name). During calls for prayer, not everyone would actually stop and do the stuff. Plus, they all speak Turkish. I didn't ask if their Qurans were in Arabic like they're supposed to be, but many of the Turks I met didn't speak Arabic, so I'd assume they aren't.
Any Turkroaches here care to explain this? Turkey was actually not a shithole, considering it's an Islamic country. How do you guys get away with drinking alcohol, not wearing head coverings, and not speaking Arabic when your religion demands it?
>>73227238
I was surprised to see women walking around WITHOUT coverings on their heads****
Sorry, typo.
>>73227238
>>73227388
Look up Ataturk. He was based, and idiot kebabs have been eroding his excellent work bit by bit ever since.
>>73227238
Secularism was literally enshrined in their constitution thanks to Atatürk, and the military was meant to depose anyone who was against it, hence why Erdogan has purged the military.
So yeah basically Atatürk was like we should be more like Europe cause they're successful and shit.
>>73227562
I know about Ataturk a bit, and I understand he went through a lot of shit to secularize the GOVERNMENT. That I understand. What I don't understand is how I saw so many individual people walking around in blatant violation to their own religion. Like I said, women without head coverings, people drinking alcohol, people praying and speaking in Turkish instead of Arabic.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling them hypocrites. As a Christian, I can say we do a lot of things that are in blatant contradiction to our holy books. The difference is, Christianity isn't known for being hyper-fanatical about obeying every law and message in the Bible. Muslims generally tend to be.
And what do you mean the turkroaches are trying to erode it? Are they becoming more fundamentalist or something? I really hope not. My trip to Turkey was the first time I got to experience the things I love about Oriental and Middle Eastern culture without a crazy death cult ruling the people that live there.
>>73227837
They've been getting more islamist and less democratic ever since he died.
>>73227898
That's a shame, I was really hoping that they could be the model that all Muslim countries could strive to be like. Sad!
>>73227238
>I didn't ask if their Qurans were in Arabic like they're supposed to be, but many of the Turks I met didn't speak Arabic, so I'd assume they aren't.
Are you serious?
>>73227238
Decades of military dictatorship with any leader who threatens secularism "strongly suggested" to retire ("coup by memo"). Stopped with Erdogan, who purged a lot of senior generals.
>>73228079
...yes? I'd say most of the Turks I spoke to said they don't speak Arabic, speak very little, or can only speak certain prayers and stuff.
>>73228064
Maybe they still can be, but they've been heading the wrong way ever since that great man died.
>>73227238
Constantinople is a rich city which is more European than Asian.
All the shitty Turks come from the eastern half.
>>73228339
Has Erdogan been helping to prevent that or accelerate that? I'm afraid I don't know much about him or his policies desu fampai.
>>73227238
>Plus, they all speak Turkish. I didn't ask if their Qurans were in Arabic like they're supposed to be, but many of the Turks I met didn't speak Arabic, so I'd assume they aren't.
Arabic is the liturgical language of Islam. All prayers have to be recited in Arabic. Arabic is the only language of the Quran and all copies of the Quran contain the Arabic text; any supplanted translations are actually not even considered to be the Quran, but rather to be commentaries thereon, due to the imprecision of translation.
>Any Turkroaches here care to explain this? Turkey was actually not a shithole, considering it's an Islamic country. How do you guys get away with drinking alcohol, not wearing head coverings, and not speaking Arabic when your religion demands it?
I'm not Turkish but I'm Albanian so I can provide some insight. The Islam of the Balkans (Albanians and Bosnians) as well as of western Turkey (eastern Turkey is backwards and a lot like parts of the Arab world) is secular in nature. The vast majority of people are not fanatics and just want to live regular lives without looking at everything through the tinted glasses of Islam 24/7. That's just not how their culture works. It's a mistake to equate Islam with Arab or Pakistani culture.
>>73228309
Did you think they all spoke fluent Arabic just because they are muslim?
>>73227837
Change the leader, and its people will change with him.
Secular leader died, what you see now are the remains of his followers, they /mudslime/ now, Erdogan will make sure of that. Give it a few and it'll start with praying becoming stricter again, followed by anti-alcohol laws (not complete prohibition though, it starts with social and religious pressure)...
>>73228697
Definitely making it worse, he's moving to be a strongman dictator type like Assad. Still better than ISIS or any of the insane theocracies, but not a civilised western nation like Ataturk built.
>>73228861
Considering Arabic is their liturgical language, yes.
>>73229038
Kek, i chuckled.
>>73229038
Nah mate, in the west for example, most muslims don't speak arabic, the imam at the mosque just tells the stories or sura's to them, and they listen
>>73229288
>>73229389
Oh. I always figured they read the Quran themselves. So they're basically like Christians in the Middle Ages? Just going off of what their priest fills their head with? No wonder they're all brainwashed cucks to their religion. Any random insane dipshit who reads Arabic can tell them to go set off bombs in Paris or Brussels and they'll eat the shit up.
>>73229486
No, they read translations of the Quran. The only places where what you describe happen are places where much of the population is illiterate, such as Waziristan.
turkey isn't like pakistan as /pol thinks. yeah there are lots of muslimfags but even most of them doesn't want sharia. turkey is basically most western muslim country. it was far better before erdogan.
>>73230443
How much longer is he in office? Does most of Turkey hate him?
>>73230443
I'm pretty sure that's why we call you guys roaches rather than outright sand niggers.
>>73230594
Half the country voted for him fully knowing what he was
>>73230443
>most western muslim country
Not while Germany exists my friend
>>73230594
literally %50 of the population hate him. and i can say more than %70 of educated people hates him. i don't think he will leave the office without dying. worst part of the democracy roaches who breed like rats wins the elections.
>>73230619
well i think being a sandnigger is worst. atleast we're not fucking terrorist.
>>73227238
That is the european part of turkey. You have to understand the difference.
Western turkey is filled with westernized turks. These people are the ones that come to europe and set up small shops. These are the educated people who have few children and are peaceful, just like europeans.
Eastern turkey is filled with kurds and literal goatfucker tier turks. These are the turks that support isis OR the opposite end of the spectrum if kurd. This is where the turkroach lives. This is where the degenerates are.
>>73227238
>How does Turkey get away with being so secular?
Read about Ataturk
Then read about how that retard Erdogan is ruining everything
>>73231144
Pretty much and you had an empire, so in my eyes, you guys are ok, just don't go causing trouble.
>>73227238
And the TurkroachIDF enters the fray.
It was only a matter of time.
>>73230845
u re right but not %100. erdogan was far far better when he first elected. even fucking liberalcucks voted for him. he even said to muslim brother '' u need secularism '' in egypt. after that all the sandniggers got pissed. it was kek. but now he is total dictator.
>>73231331
Erdoğan just said he wants the new constitution to be liberal secular(like USA).
>>73229038
Are you Christian....? do you speak Latin...?
>>73227238
Literally only the large western cities. And even there it's starting to reverse thanks to Erdoshit taking a huge dump all over everything people like Atatürk tried to build.
>>73230901
says the guy whose national capital has a muslim mayor
>>73227238
Your first mistake is thinking that Istanbul is really a part of Turkey. It's always been extremely cosmopolitan, even before Ataturk. And Turkey in general gets much less westernised the further east in the country you go. Think of the difference between California and South Carolina, only bigger.
>>73229038
how many catholics do you know who can speak Latin?
>>73230443
Turkey was never as westernised as some Turks like to think. It's just that before Erdogan Turkey was ruled by a highly westernised elite, whereas now the poorer sections of society who remained more religious are starting to make their voice felt in Turkish politics. Same as most middle eastern countries, really, except that in Turkey the westernised section of society was large enough for there to be some semblance of democracy (with the occasional coup for when things got a little too democratic), whereas the secular elites in arab countries are really tiny.
>>73227238
If it tasted of aniseed, I think you had Raki.
>>73231957
>Latin
The difference is something you can't compare really, most of the Arab world speaks Arabic, while there's no country on earth anymore that speaks Latin, not even Vatican. Even during Ottoman empire they had parts that spoke solely Arabic or so
>>73231957
i never said turkey is a western country. i know we're far from western. i mean we're the most western among the muslims.
>>73230901
We have a Muslim mayor ffs
>>73231566
>>73231957
The difference is, it isn't written in our holy books that it must be in a certain language. That said, yes, I speak Latin, but only because I'm an historian.
>>73227837
>What I don't understand is how I saw so many individual people walking around in blatant violation to their own religion.
you fucking retard, wearing the veil is not compulsory in islam - its a choice. it's not forced requirement, and a lot of women who don't wear veils are also religious
if you think it's some ataturk's achievement - go to jordan or uae. wearing the veil is not a requirmenet and never written in the quran. it's just a traditional thing
>>73231390
thanks americanbro. i hope you trump wins and erdogan dies so we can have better relationship and help you kill sandniggers again
>>73232603
adnan hocacı mısın anon kek
>>73230901
>>73227837
>visits Istanbul once
>"I love middle Eastern culture"
You remind me of this faggot I was sitting next to in my lecture. Try visiting the Kurdish parts of Turkey and then tell me about middle Eastern culture.
>>73232912
this nigger gets it.
Fucking turkroaches thinking >we wuz europeanz and shieet.
>we cosmopolitan and shieeet
>we secular and shieet
>>73232782
ben dindarim, ve dindar muhavafazakar akp'ye, ANAP'a veren ailedenim, oglum. soyda imamlar var falan, ve buna ragmen benim anam babam bacim cogu ortu giymez. nedeni su ki - kuranda ortu giy diye bir ayet yok abicim.
bana bul - bulursan bu postumu yerim
>>73233035
>kuranda ortu giy diye bir ayet yok abicim.
neolur şaka olduğunu söyle.
>>73232629
I would most certainly like that, you guys could really use a new ataturk to get it to total western standards.
>>73232912
>implying kurds are human and have culture
>>73227238
>>73233084
goster bana.
ispat yuku senin uzerinde. kuranda tek diyen sey - kadinlar modest olmali. ortu giy diye bir zorlayici ayet yok.
>>73232471
Reading some suraa's in Arabic while offering Namaaz and speaking in Arabic is totally two diff things m8....as less then 27% Muslims in the world are Arabs....
top 4 Muslim population in the world at the moment are Indonesia/India/Pakistan and Bangladesh....arabic speakers here are rare....
>>73227238
The scarf is an indication of faith but it's absence is not an indication of anything.
The fact that you saw people drink alcohol is more interesting. As well as not go to prayer.
But there are reasons people can have for not going to a mosque, they can prey toward mecca from where they are working.
>>73233105
But isn't that a good thing? They'll genetically cripple themselves in 2-4 generations and simply cease to exist after that
I'm pretty sure the alcohol you drank was Raki.
>>73233299
retard op, despite being a historian thinks that every muslim must know arabic.
probably a really crappy historian at that.
>>73232912
I never said I loved Middle Eastern culture. I've always had an interest in it before I visited Istanbul, Turkish culture specifically. This was simply the first time I visited it.
Doesn't 90% of /pol/ worship Hitler and Aryans despite the fact 90% of them have never been to Germany, or any Germanic culture? Fuck off.
>>73233236
>(24/NÛR-31: İnanan kadınlara da söyle, onlar da gözlerini bakılması yasak olandan çevirsinler, iffet ve namuslarını korusunlar, süslerini göstermesinler, elde olmayarak açığa çıkan ve görünen kısımları hariç, cazibe ve güzelliklerini açığa vurarak dikkat çekmesinler ve bunun için başörtülerini, göğüsleri üzerine sarkıtsınlar ki, boyun ve gerdanlarından birşey görünmesin. Allah'ın açılmasını haram kıldığı, gizli zinet yerlerini yani cazibe ve güzelliklerini kocalarından, babalarından, kayınpederlerinden, oğullarından, üvey oğullarından, kardeşlerinden, erkek kardeşlerinin oğulları ya da kız kardeşlerinin oğullarından veya müslüman kadınlardan veya yasal olarak sahip oldukları köle, cariye gibi kimselerden veya erkeklikten kesilmiş yemek isteyip karın doyurmaktan başka birşey düşünemeyen kadınlara meyil ve şehvet ihtiyacı olmayan erkeklerden veya kadınların mahrem yerlerine henüz ilgi duymayan çocuklardan başka kimselere açıp göstermesinl...
>bunun için başörtülerini, göğüsleri üzerine sarkıtsınlar ki, boyun ve gerdanlarından birşey görünmesin.
>>73233236
anon gerçekten tam bir gerizekalısın. müslümanlık sadece kuran'da birebir yazan şeyler mi amk ? ayrıca aç nur 24/31'i oku bak bakalım başörtüsüyle ilgili ayet var mı yok mu?
>>73227238
And if you think it's secular, try offending people's regarding their religious beliefs
>>73233451
I've heard most muslims at least have a rudimentary knowledge of arabic so they can read the quran. Maybe i'm wrong though.
>>73232912
Only the red areas of Turkey are civilized, the rest is Durka-durka tbqh
>>73231512
France tried that, but they added a lot of bullshit which made it very complex.
>>73233624
imana geldi yazmıyor
>>73233105
Subhumans are still superior over literal actual roaches
>>73233672
we know Basic prayers - El Fatiha, some suras like Ikhlas, ettehiyatu etc.
To pray (ie do namaz) you need to know at least 4 suras, and fatiha and another 2 special prayers. All is really easy to remember and relatively short.
But that doesn't mean that we know arabic. It's like if a priest would recite a latin poem during service all the time - it would seem like he knows latin, but he just knows one or two poems. same thing here.
>>73233604
Dogru. Benim dedigim gibi bu sadece bir tavsiyeli ayet.
Bir mueyiide, yaptirim ya da zorunluluk soz konusu degil. Kuranda zaten cogu kez diyor - bunu yapmassan cehenemde yakarsin. Zina yaparsan - su cezasi var falan. Ama burda boyle bir sey yok, ve bir ceza yok oldugu icin bu bir tavsiyeli sure.
Biraz kurandan anlaman lazim.
>>73227238
its not in the culture
we never really had a fully sharia law in effect in turkish nations that came before as well, ottomans had the caliphate but the sultans often did not follow islamic rules and the laws did not come from islamic laws (religious laws for marriage and stuff came from their respective religions and applied to their respective religions. civil laws came from a basis of old turkish laws and applied even to sultans and religious leaders)
"moderate" islam was always a turkish export, turkish islam was based on dervish sects like bektashi and mevlevi order until later centuries. wahhabism was banned and saudi family was exiled in arabia
to follow that up with here is a bektashi joke(which should give you an idea on how islam in turkey operates somewhat)
>A Bektashi was a passenger in a rowing boat travelling across the Bosphorus when a sudden storm started. The boatman tried to reassure him by saying "Fear not—God is great(large)!" the Betktashi replied, "Yes, God is great, but the boat is small."
that doesn't mean that we are western though, whitu piggu go homu
>>73233672
They think God speaks Arabic and are nominally obligated to learn it since they are obliged to read the Quran. Few do and the "illiteracy" and eccentricity of say Indonesian Muslims is a regular gripe of Saudi Muslims.
>>73227238
the arab world view turkey with disdain
they are neither arabs nor europeans, they are actual moderate muslims
>>73233672
we can recite some passages from Quran (suraa's) ,(I suspect without even knowing the meaning in local language) , but that's about as far as Arabic knowledge goes...
>>73227238
About 10 years ago I visited Turkey. The western and central parts were really secular. Some women wore Hijabs others didn't. Allot of woman didn't. When I went to the eastern parts of the county near the border with Iraq and Iran, I saw fully covered women. I don't know if they were burqas or niqabs. I was surprised when I saw them. I thought that was illegal in Turkey.
>>73234477
lol bektashi is a tiny minority that is associated with k*rds.
turkey has always been hanafi sunni, which is why it's so moderate compared to arabs (who follow the other more restrictive madhabs, which leads to things like salafism)
case in point - indonesia, malaysia never heard of bektashis or alavis, yet they are more moderate than even us turks. the reason is the hanafi madhab
>>73227238
Because proving you wrong feels good. Showing you the happy side of islam, makes us feel like we win the battle of cultures.
What's /pol/'s opinion on this guy?
>>73227238
And even in one of the most islamic city in indonesia, Bandung, beerhouses are everywhere, clubs are many, tourists love it.
>>73234902
bektashis were banned in the later eras during the destruction of the jannisary corps, that is why we have so few today
but they used to have a lot of power in the ottoman empire, most notably nearly all jannissary members were of the bektashi order and the bektashi dervishes were very integrated into their organization
>>73234899
How's that any diff from USA...? the more rural you go you get more Christian , you don't expect to see NY level dressing on rural USA woman do you...?
>>73235118
Into the ovens.
>>73235197
I just thought that type of dress was illegal in the entire country.
I've wondered would the world be safer with WW1 Turkish borders applied to today?
>>73235685
if turks genocided arabs world would be so much better.
>>73235531
the muslim dress was never illegal. don't listen to the retarded secularists who don't know turkish history
pic related - ataturk with his wife latife
>>73235685
probably, but its hard to guess
if turkey had enough power its not hard to imagine that ottomans would have joined germany in ww2
>>73235531
I assume local provincial govt bodies have there own set of rules and regulations they enforce....you cant enforce the same set of rules in Vermont and Utah , can you...?
>>73235531
it used to be illegal in governmental institutions and schools
>>73236069
good old days
>>73235976
No. I have just read news stories about teachers getting fired for wearing them Hijabs. I didn't know Burqas or Niqabs were still being worn in that country.
>>73236223
Burkas are pretty rare sight at our part of Dhaka too , but I'm sure a more common sight in outside the capital...
>>73236588
Yea. I visited Dhaka,Chittagong, and Rajshahi and never saw any of that. Surprisingly nice country in some areas.
>>73234902
Indonesia and Malaysia follow shafii mdhab
>>73227837
No I think you might be mistaken.
>Based on the mission of CCU, its standards and uniqueness as a living and learning environment that honors Jesus Christ, the university recognizes that some students may struggle with their gender identity and wish to explore living as a particular gender other than the one that they were biologically created as. When a student is cooperative and willing to explore these feelings in an appropriate setting and not act out the feelings, the university will allow them to continue being a part of the CCU community if they are pursuing counseling and a mentoring relationship that will help them discuss appropriately who God made them to be. In this process, however, the university will uphold a view that we are "fearfully and wonderfully made" in the uniqueness and image of God and therefore strategically and purposefully made as the biological gender we were born as. Because of this belief, the university will not allow a student of a particular gender to dress and act differently than the biological one that God crated them to be. When a student decides to identify as a gender other than their biological one, it is in their, and the university's, best interest for them to leave the university community. It is also in the best interest of the university and the student for them to separate themselves from the CCU community if she or he pursues a medical course of action to physically change their biological gender to that of another sex.
Actually is part of the student handbook.
>>73230901
That doesn't work anymore for us, Abdul.
>>73230443
>roach
>12% are extremists
fuck off
Been to Istanbul twice, last time a couple of weeks ago. Love that city, Turks are a great people, food is fantastic. Turks I met were proud of their secular government, and eager to explain if you wouldn't mind visiting his uncle's carpet shop, just around the corner.
>>73237399
>Iraq
>Sharia Law 91%
That nation building turned out well... So glad Saddam got removed, amirite?
