Has capitalism every actually worked? Or is it's history a long stream of "innovations" that cover up it's bloody and oppressive structure?
>>72514657
Capitalism has been working for centuries.
>>72514657
>bloody and oppressive
But anon, this is communism. Capitalism is the economics of freedom.
>>72514658
T. Nathan Mayer Rothschild
Marx points out in plenty of places that capitalism definitely worked
>>72514660
>Has capitalism every actually worked?
>It has been working for centuries.
What is it that you don't understand?
>>72514660
>muh illuminati
>muh new world over
>muh rotschild is a demon who feasts on the blood of gentiles
This is what you sound like.
America became a world power in less than 200 years because of capitalism.
Also, the standard of living has skyrocketed thanks to the advancements made possible by the free market.
>>72514658
Have you ever read the news?
>>72514657
I hate capitalism, but the frequent innovations that happen are only due to capitalism.
>>72514665
A lot of countries were "practicing capitalism" (an odd phrase in reference to the time period, capitalism was not something people said they were doing) in the 19th century. Something else seems to be the major factor.
>>72514661
Yes, but overall it's a failure. A slap to the face is better than a punch to the balls, but neither is best.
>>72514666
Yes, why do you ask?
>>72514665
Yes it had nothing to do with two world wars. Or the literal slaughter and conquest of the natives.
>>72514657
Things in history don't "work," they just are. Marx pointed out a number of contradictions in capital that lead to crises ("recession" "revolution" "war").
>innovations that cover up it is[sic] bloody and oppressive structure?
Marx doesn't discuss "oppression" he discusses exploitation. Oppression is some cultural shit, exploitation is a material relationship.
FUCK OFF TO >>>/pol/
>>72514670
So did you miss the "2009 recession" news?
>>72514668
Brain drain, a certain religion(protestantcucks) and no competition. Us continentals had the option of hard-on Nationalism to modernise but it comes with a less strong capitalism.
>>72514672
Stop tipping your fedora. You know what I meant
>>72514675
>You know what I meant
If you can't be bothered with precision, I can't be bothered not slitting your bowel and spilling your shit on the linoleum.
>>72514673
The OP if capitalism has actually ever "worked", and I answered.
How does the recession of 2009 constitute evidence of capitalism not "working"? Periodic financial crises are an inherent sideeffect of capitalism.
What is it that you don't understand?
>>72514676
>precision
>in regards to a translation
Kek
>>72514678
Yeah, nah, there's a hunded fiddy years of use of Marxist terms in English mate.
>>72514677
I mean has capitalism ever worked in the sense it portends to, I.e. Hayek efficient markets, competition etc
>>72514680
capitalism isn't an intentional human structure but an emergent property of relations.
Hayek's attempts to import intentionality to an unchosen relation is reification.
>>72514679
Is there? Still pretty new to Marx so you'll have to forgive me then
>>72514657
>2016
>a technological wonderland where major diseases are eradicated and obesity and diabetes has replaced starvation as the main problem in the developing world
>but anon, what GOOD has capitalism done?
Capitalism is like that computer program on top of which they slap the "it werks on my system :^) t. developer" ribbon and pretend it's not a badly written piece of shit in the first place.
With that being said the central idea isn't that bad, it's just that for those with sufficient means it's extremely easy to work the system and cheat, providing more means for themselves and denying them to others. Today capitalism has become gentler in appearance, but possibly even more brutal in application than before.
>>72514681
Alright, so I'll ask the question again to reflect what I mean.
Has capitalism ever worked in the sense of free trade, efficient markets, and competition, I.e. the way capitalism claims it works? Or does it always produce crises?
>>72514657
Define "worked"
>>72514683
>>a technological wonderland where major diseases are eradicated and obesity and diabetes has replaced starvation as the main problem in the developing world
>claims major diseases are eradicated
>mentions major diseases are still a problem
>acts as if obesity and diabetes are somehow superior diseases
>doesn't recognize the material cause of obesity is a product of class relations
>>72514682
Don't try and be authoritative when you lack the fucking reading then.
>>72514685
You're still reifying capitalism.
No: free trade, efficient markets and competition have never existed. Yes capitalism always produces crises. Yes: even with free trade, efficient markets and competition capitalism WILL produce crises. No these crises do not mean that capitalism "does not work" in the sense of failing to ensure its own reproduction.
Jesus fuck, read first year before posting again.
>>72514686
Capitalism has gone through innumerable different forms. Each time it fails, it creatively reinvents itself
I'm asking if any of the ways in which capitalism described itself were ever honest or true, or is capitalism always mistaken (thus leads to crises) or intentionally misleading in it's descriptions
>>72514680
Theory, and practice, are complementary counterparts of the same concept. Capitalism has been working for centuries. The OP (you?) asked if it has ever "worked", not that if it is an optimal, or "good", economic system.
>>72514657
>bloody and oppressive
human relations are often bloody and oppressive
unless you think a non bloody non oppressive utopia can exist, you are just pissing in the wind calling capitalism bloody and oppressive
all alternatives to capitalism, when implemented have resulted in bloody oppression
fags never learn: just because something is bad doesnt mean any alternative is better
>>72514687
>equating diabeetus with diptheria, smallpox, polio etc
>becoming ill from having TOO MUCH food isn't superior to dying from not enough food
Commie logic.
>>72514689
Capitalism's attempts to describe itself have been through political economy and economics. Its descriptions of itself have been insufficient because they have been ideological attempts, not praxical critiques.
Capitalism is NOT a set of virtuous behaviours, but the actual set of living behaviours. It is not the ideological self-mistaking that leads to crises, but the actual material relationships.
Capitalism reworks itself after crises (cf: Lenin in England etc.).
>>72514683
>Capitalism is responsible for scientific progress.
>>72514694
>science just magics itself out of things air
>>72514693
what texts should i read to get into marxism?
>>72514696
Anti-dühring ("socialism, utopian & scientific")
Family, Private Property and the State
Condition of the working class in England
Contribution to a critique
Capital 1-3
>>72514697
Add the 3 volumes of Kołakowski
>>72514685
No financial system will EVER lack crises.
The goal is to be able to avoid those losses and minimise them.
>>72514687
Stop eating so much fucking food fatties.
Bamn, solved.
>>72514694
Of course it isn't. Catholicism is responsible. Capitalism just makes it so, that it advances faster.
>>72514697
>>72514698
thanks anon
>>72514668
brain drain, war opportunity, after war opportunity, mass industrialization
>>72514699
did karl marx believe socialism would not lack crises?
>>72514657
The heuristic argument is that growth stage capitalism is fantastically effective, but you cannot stay in a state of perpetual growth.
Late stage capitalism tends to degenerate into authoritarian plutocracy. Although that might not be so bad
I will go try find concrete references of this.
>>72514657
Has communism ever actually worked? Or is it's history a long stream of "innovations" that cover up it's bloody and oppressive structure?
Why do people conflate capital with markets?
This really bothers me.
>>72514706
what am i missing?
>>72514707
In theory you can have a socialist market system, where capital is nominally socially owned, but prices are set by a competitive market, where suppliers have equal opportunity access to capital, but compete on labor. Or something.
You also have capitalism without competitive markets, such as those found in company towns, such as traditional mining towns, where the capital is privately owned, but there is a lack of a competitive market, and while there is monetary exchange, prices are set by a monopoly, the company's lodging rents and general goods store. Although I suppose that's still nominally a market system. If you want a more extreme example, slavery. You become the capital and are wholly owned, and your labor or remuneration is not subject to market forces. If you're a born slave, and not an auction slave, there's no market involved except for the value of the goods you produce in trade. It's just a cost-benefit analysis if you pull your weight and then some. If you had a self-sufficient slave plantation using only born slaves, you would have a completely non-market capitalist system.
>>72514657
What has never worked/ happened is comunism that is a vague meme defended only by retards
>>72514685
Crisis are natural. There has been crisis through out history,in every civilization that you can imagine. Is so stupid to assume that crisis are just a result just one thing
>>72514704
>you cannot stay in a state of perpetual growth.
Human history is basically a state of perpetual growth.,in every aspect (demografically,economics,scientifically,culturally,etc)
The idea that growth is not natural,is one of the dumbest asumptions that you could make
>>72514711
D A R K A G E S
A
R
K
A
G
E
S
>>72514708
>such as traditional mining towns
#Deadwood
>>72514711
It's also widely understood it is unsustainable.
Most economists prefer not to use the term "capitalism" for the reasons this thread exemplifies. I recommend reading up on your Polyani and using terms like "markets" more.
>>72514714
this. most "growth" is unnecessary
>>72514712
The middle ages is a pretty misunderstood yime period.
The most important empire in history just fall. And the new leaders were way sophisticated,and instaured their new dinasties through brutal wars. After a period of relative stagnation,lots of prosperous and wealthy places,and the population rised significantly minus when there were epidemics.
It is also worthy yo note that the dark ages in Europe was a golden age in the middle east and parts of Spain.
>>72514714
Why? The tendency for all of the history of humanity has been the one of mostly continous growth. Only a huge pandemic/ war, have stopped this tendency,there are usually crisis,but usually crisis and depressions are small periods of contraction after long periods of growth.
>>72514718
Has technology been levelling off?
>>72514718
No, if you had 2-3% economic growth consistent since Jesus' day we would have filled half of the solar system with crap.
>>72514688
>competition has never existed
>preventing people from buying cheaper and better foreign products by forcing them to buy my brothers shit products is a good thing
>>72514714
Using coal and fossil fuels while you research better, renewable sources using energy from fossil fuels, is not sustainable? Before you run out you get renewable sources of energy?
>>72514720
>New resources don't appear and waste can't get treated.
We are growing faster right now than 1000 years ago,but this growth is linked to technological developments and advances.
>>72514723
some of it is legitimate, but some of it is linked to fat retards buying kawaii japanese dolls from their favorite animu.
also i did some math, assuming 2000 years ago we started with an economy that produced 20,000 loaves of bread per year that measured 6"x6"x12", and grew at 2% a year, by today they would have to be producing a volume of bread equal to the volume of the moon. even small amounts of growth can't be sustained.
>>72514724
Is this post supposed to be serious? The growth that we are experiencing right now is linked to our technological developments. 2000 years ago the technology was smaller so the overall growth was smaller too. New technologies are appearing constantly,and right now if we wanted we could survive using only none polluting technologies.
>>72514725
No, not all of the growth is linked to technological development.
>>72514726
>No, not all of the growth is linked
Growth comes mainly from the increase in productivity,population growth and the expansion of new markets.All of those 3 things are related to technological advancements
>>72514727
>the expansion of new markets
aka selling plastic weeb dolls.
>The bourgeoisie has disclosed how it came to pass that the brutal display of vigour in the Middle Ages, which reactionaries so much admire, found its fitting complement in the most slothful indolence. It has been the first to show what man’s activity can bring about. It has accomplished wonders far surpassing Egyptian pyramids, Roman aqueducts, and Gothic cathedrals; it has conducted expeditions that put in the shade all former Exoduses of nations and crusades.
>...The need of a constantly expanding market for its products chases the bourgeoisie over the entire surface of the globe. It must nestle everywhere, settle everywhere, establish connexions everywhere.
>...The bourgeoisie has through its exploitation of the world market given a cosmopolitan character to production and consumption in every country. To the great chagrin of Reactionists, it has drawn from under the feet of industry the national ground on which it stood. All old-established national industries have been destroyed or are daily being destroyed.
>The bourgeoisie, by the rapid improvement of all instruments of production, by the immensely facilitated means of communication, draws all, even the most barbarian, nations into civilisation. The cheap prices of commodities are the heavy artillery with which it batters down all Chinese walls, with which it forces the barbarians’ intensely obstinate hatred of foreigners to capitulate. It compels all nations, on pain of extinction, to adopt the bourgeois mode of production; it compels them to introduce what it calls civilisation into their midst, i.e., to become bourgeois themselves. In one word, it creates a world after its own image.
>...The bourgeoisie, during its rule of scarce one hundred years, has created more massive and more colossal productive forces than have all preceding generations together.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm
>>72514728
You must be trolling
>>72514896
>no plastic weeb doll market 30 years ago
>plastic weeb doll market today
>this isn't a part of growth
>>72515008
And? What is the impact of that in the economy?
>>72515089
it's not that exact thing, there's just a large glut of consumerism/unnecessary production for the sole sake of maintaining growth.
Top kek, I come from Venice. Capitalism is simply the best. We wuz capitalist and shiet for centuries and centuries.
Get your collectivist faggotry out of here.
The whole point of capitalism is innovation and costs of things going down you retard
>>72514657
Where are your flags and IDs?
>>72515245
Behind each doll there are lots of machinery and chemical refinery behind it. Are mechanical and chemical advancements just consumerism?
>>72515458
They ran out of them in their commie utopia.
>>72515458
This thread started on his
>>72515458
>>72514657
Yeah, what the FUCK is going on in this thread?
Maybe it's just my internet but half the posts in this thread are unknown right?
>>72515481
they don't create the social relations that demand production of the dolls.
>>72514657
JIDF thread
>>72514657
Yes, Marx openly praises capitalism and it's innovations.
However capitalism isn't the end of history, eventually it's going to outdo iself hence when it develops to socialism just as feudalism developed into capitalism. Likewise it does have a bloody and oppressive structure, which is why revolution is important to bring socialism to us right now.
>>72515523
>>72515458
It was a thread from another board that got moved here by the mods I assume.
>>72515458
When a thread is moved to /pol/ from another board by mods , the posts made before the moving dont have flags or IDs
>>72515512
>>72515319
except the exact opposite has been happening for the past 30 years.
>When you're communist you actually run out of flags and IDs.
>thread gets moved to /pol/
>everyone rolls out the memes and ignorance
>>72515512
>>72515637
>>72515647
fuck you all for bottlefeeding newfags, no fun allowed
>>72515556
What are you talking about? If there is a profit on producing dolls,and the building of dolls require machinery,money will also poor to those industries,increasing the revenue of productive industries and allowing them to reinvest the money to be more competitive. Your economic view is obsolete
>>72515748
I fucking love aussies.
Oh wait..
>>72515602
Hue? Capitalism is what we came up with building society on things that worked.
Socialism is just an feelings filled ideology slipping trough. It leads to downfall not another step of evolution.
>>72515844
shhh, you didn't see us, rapefugees can't move to a non-extant place
>>72514657
What is bloody or oppressive about it?
Fucking alien shills man
>>72515906
It isn't, socialism is the GOAT and generally correct about everything.
Even just look at history, here in the first world we're on the slow road to socialism. It's inevitable.
>>72514721
Pretty sure anon didn't say that, fag.
>>72514671
>muh killing natives
I had no idea that killing a native automatically raised economic production. A truly remarkable concept!
I will have to thank the European settlers necromancers for wielding and casting plague and diseases upon the natives. Because remember, it was the white mans choice that natives died from disease, so they must have been the ones casting the plague magic!
>>72514657
capitalism is theft and exploitation. only a horrible uneducated person can support capitalism.
>>72514684
Define "cheating the system"
>>72516127
>GOAT
I don't know what it means.
And your downfall is inevitable too.
What in history? Socialist civilization that survived to this day? Bring examples instead of shooting blind.
>>72516248
>mfw when I recognize you as a commie "serb" that (shit)posts for communism on /pol/
Ubij se degeneriče i odjebi nazad na reddit s tim kurcem koji ti visi iznad postova.Nisi poseban i ne zaslužuješ pažnju žoharu.
>mfw i read this thread
even the early American settler tried collectivism and it collapsed on itself. then the settlers switched to "you work for everything for yourself. those that don't work don't eat", which became the earliest precurser to American capitalism.
t. vaguely going off what I heard a few weeks ago
>>72514657
Compared to communism's long stream of bloody and oppresive structures?
Or even the reduced quality and poverty that comes with socialism?
Capitalism is the only proven way to reducing poverty effectively. The better and more efficient the market is, the high the standard of living.
>>72516596
if you had anything smart to say, you would have said it.
>>72515748
M8 I've been here for 4 years and never saw any thing like that.
>>72516527
It's an acronym for Greatest Of All Time.
>What in history? Socialist civilization that survived to this day? Bring examples instead of shooting blind.
Cuba has been keeping it real thus far.
And the fall of the Eastern bloc could have been prevented if Gorbachev didn't drink the western kool-aid.
>>72515509
Top kek
>>72516953
>MUH CAPITARISM IS THEFT AND EXPROATATION.
>YOU ARE UNEDUCATED IF YOU SUPPORT CAPITARISM YOU RANCID SWINE.
If you actually gave some rationalization to your claims I would outright refute them.
You,my retarded eastern cousin, copy-pasted rehashed maymay response and you expected to get a sane and rational answer.
Marx has identified crucial underpinning issues concerning capitalism,but has not provided any remedy/surrogate system to take its place.
>communism
A system that completely ignores ethnos,abolishes freedom,tries to nullify genetic predispositions,deletes and rewrites national history,concentrates enormous amounts of power in hands of a couple of people (unlike capitalism this is based not on merit,but on political/personal suitability),enforces repression of unparalleled proportions through a huge mechanism (from secret services to large standing/reservist armies),bashes any free thought and controls the media entirely,tries to meddle in economy and fails spectacularly etc. Communism may the the worst form of governing our civilization has ever seen and its is appalling that hordes of half baked,uneducated retards around the globe still suck on the same ideology for decades. You know what the funniest thing about communism is? It actually comes close to functionality when it abolishes big chunks of its own ideology. Soviets invoked Rodina in WW2 to throw back the Germans,they invoked russian nationalism and it fucking worked. Chinese have more or less adopted capitalistic investments and by opening their market gave rise to their economy that is unparalleled in modern times (only comparable growth is by the US in WW2).
And here comes the cold hard truth you dumb fuck,communism is controlled opposition. Yes,you read it right. If you actually spent some time educating yourself you would realize that. Bakunin was one of the people who saw through communistic ideology in the beginning,I suggest you look him up.
>>72517180
It was just an example. Anyway...
If you think that Cuba is a substantial upgrade from your current situation then go for it.
I don't have enough inside on Cuban life to dwell into that.
People elected communists and people who tore them down.
I don't think they were able to prevent crippling economy.
You can repeat mistakes of the past or move on.
>>72516248
Fascists are anti-capitalist though m8.
>>72516953
Perhaps the worst part about communists I have met in my life is that they really think to themselves that they are morally right,high upon their mountain they look down on us mortal beings who actually put the individual ,they claim to defend so vigorously, in the middle of our society and give him the means to,according to his own actions, builds himself a better future. Nietzches ubermensch may only be born in a capitalistic society and that alone is a good enough reason to put up with the capitalistic system. Communists actually blame capitalism for its crony iteration they are witnessing today when they should blame their governments that effectively killed real capitalism by giving leeway to socialists and bankers/"big buck industrialists". Communists are the worst cancer inflicted on our society,useful idiots that should get the taste of their own medicine,court marshalled and shot in the chest by a firing squad.
>>72514657
What are we defining as working?
>>72518259
Not starving to death 5 million of your own people in a year.
>>72514666
Satan this is what the news leads retards to believe.
Also the 08 crash was directly caused by government policy as was the great depression caused by the Federal reserve.
Both of which free market capitalist have always opposed and ha e always warned against
>>72514672
Marx's definition of "exploitation" is wrong and has been proven wrong for well over 100 years.
>>72519499
>CEOs that control the government and get everything they want are victims are poor oppressed victims abloobloobloo
>>72519715
And if you believe that clown in the suit is only getting pennies you are ten times as fucking retarded as any hippie communist marxist nazi fascist kenyan.
>>72519715
>the government that has 40% of the nation's GDP at its disposal is just a poor, malleable puppet in the hands of CEOs abloobloobloo
