Lately I've seen a lot of american (Trumpfags I would bet since they repeat the same thing that their god said and become crazy butthurt when you try to discuss the idea) who speak about withdrawing american presence in the world (pic related).
So my argument is american isolasionism would automatically sign the end of their status of superpower.
I have personnaly no problem with that (I think France, UK and Germany can assume European defense against an economicaly weak Russia) but they will lose A LOT in almost every domain.
Too many americans fail to see the importance of their global military presence on their own economic interests.
This secures your trade routes, give you leverage on the country you protect and prevents economic partner to generate conflicts which would cause automatically various type of crisis.
Basically it is a stabilizing force on global economy (I exclude the post-Cold War interventionnism in Middle-East which is a multidimensionnal problem).
Just imagine this scenario: tomorrow USA transition to leave Japan under 5 years, the nippons rearm themself and regain an autonomy on defense.
Now you have two local economic power with conflictual territory claims (the Senkaku Islands and of course the waters around them), the situation is asymetrical since China has nukes and Japan has not.
What is the only move Japan can do compete ? Launching a nuclear military program.
Of course this would extremely pisses off the chinese to have nukes at 800km of Shanghai, especially with a country with which share a complicated history (think Cuba missiles crisis 2.0) so chances are they could launch skirmishes or force occupation of an island.
Now you have a major international crisis between the 2nd and 3rd economy powers.
USA will be obligated to interfere, because nobody want a WW3 or a mini Cold War again.
The thing is China have USA by the balls, they loan them a huge amount of money, they have numerous industries totally dependant of them and their natural resources (think rare earth elements, high tech manufacturers/assembler, that is just two examples).
You can strongarm them but that's not the objective.
Japan on the other side is the 4th US economc partner too, but they will send the message that they are independent and back in the game.
Here you are stuck in a really bad situation you could have defused if you remained the main opposing force to China in the area.
I voluntarly simplified to China-Japan but it would be more like China vs ASEAN+Japan.
tl;dr: if USA drop their global presence that would backfire really quickly for them, a bit like Iraq: nobody asked you to go there but now you were there you should have not leave, Obongo basically worsened the refugee crisis (which would have been caused anyway since the sole initial cause of Syrian civil war was a pipeline).
Prove me wrong.
Shameless bump, stop catching the baits.
>Basically it is a stabilizing force on global economy
>a big guy with a stick is stabilizing force
cool story bro
>>77817999
for you
>>77817999
How it is not ?
Before democracy it was almost always the guy with the big stick who was the peacekeeper.
Things went to shit when too many people had a stick of the same size.
>>77817999
If the US didn't keep faggots in line, the world would be a shithole.
>>77817369
T. a Frenchman who is worried about paying even higher taxes when the US stops protecting him from Russia.
>>77817369
It's time for you to be great again, oldest ally.
>>77817394
>The thing is China have USA by the balls
So does Japan
>>77818685
>Before democracy it was almost always the guy with the big stick who was the peacekeeper.
actually it was always the guy with teh big stick who was the one dictating how things go.
Rule out of fear nothing more. A good law does not need people enforcing it.
>>77820025
we can just hold every chinese elite's mistress and personal bank account hostage if they ever tried to get uppity.
>>77819906
You don't protect us from jackshit John, we pay our military ourselves since De Gaulle, have alone a bigger military budget than Russia, we have enough nukes to dissuade anybody and thanks to your moronic foreign policy, african niggers and serbians we got plenty of practice during the last two decades.
We (re)joined NATO only since 2009 and you don't have a single base on our soil since 1966.
But I am not really surprised of your ignorance, morons are always like that: taunting hard just to look even more stupid after.
>withdrawing american presence in the world
>at the same time building up military and promoting aggressiveness in our conflicts
You do honestly believe him? He's no ron paul "we marched in, we can march out".
I will give you the point about isolationism. Trump sure wants to build up a wall between countries. Tariffs, troops, literal walls. But he's no 'isolationist' because he'd call for moving troops out of some countries.
>>77820025
who the FUCK put this chart in alphabetical order? REEEEEEE
>>77817369
I personally look forward to anarchy in the world once we withdraw. As long as it stays away from my homeland of course.
>>77817369
>I think France, UK and Germany can assume European defense against an economicaly weak Russia
>implying we give a shit about what Russia is doing
Russia is our ally both historically and geographically
>>77821563
this. Maybe there will be a war, in which case there will be a thriving black market in the warzone for anything I want.
>>77817369
>Isolasionism
It's even a Latin derived word. What the fuck France.
The American Empire is doomed to fail in the long run, especially with our current insane leftist worldview, and we can't avoid a multipolar world with multiple superpowers forever. All empires fail eventually due to civilizational entropy and we might as well get used to it. It's also silly to believe that the issue of nukes has been settled and there's some way to avoid tension over it. The mere fact that one's neighbors have them is reason enough to get them for oneself and that will cause fear. You're being too optimistic in assuming we can stop this forever.
>>77817369
First, we sit back.
We say no to Muslims as we did with fleeing Jews.
Then, we let you all go to war. Again..
We step in once more, hopefully on Russia side this time, then rape your land of resources, booming our golden age.
Britain and France, remain out of it, keep clay.
>>77819711
I kind of have to agree on this.
Fucking France, eh? This whole mess in northern Africa is because France is butthurt.
>hurr durr le francais needs le sphere of influence
>hurr durr EU is German AND French project never forget
>hurr durr le France wants bigger role in NATO
Leave European security up to French, Germans, and Russians? Lmao. No fucking thanks.
t.pro-American Serb.
>>77820970
We agree that's inconsistent, still remain the fact that he says: “The countries we are defending must pay for the cost of this defense, and if not, the U.S. must be prepared to let these countries defend themselves".
Well okay, but the loss of influence remains, I sure think Italy and Germany are totally capable of pay for their defense but they will sure prefer to give jobs to their people and have their own forces than paying 50 000 american soldiers to occupy their soil.
You will need to park your ship elsewhere in Mediterrannea too.
I don't even speak about the cost of bringing home all the equipments and people.
>>77817369
withdraw all foreign stationed infantry and icbms/nukes.
Naval bases missile shields and sensor arrays remain.
no more funding for NATO, Irsael, Egypt, syrisn and other "rebel groups" or other proxy adventurism.
Use the billions of savings to fund fusion research and other alternative energies.
Keep a strong navy for trade routes and a strong nuclear deterrent capability.
Actually disband the entire Army branch and most of the chair force. money goes to militia and small arms training for young men/women all over USA.
>>77817369
Your argument is right. The USA is a stabilising force in the world and stepping back will be our country giving up it's superpower card.
The thing is, we don't care, those of us who want isolationism. The united states govt was not designed to be a superpower and in being a superpower we have lost so much of what our country is supposed to be.
I get it, you're scared for the world if we take our equipment and go home, but when we see our country being corrupted and ripped off, our liberties and systems of govt being undermined, our country and people hated and despised by the very people who benefit from our stabilising influence, we simply don't see the point.
That's my opinion anyway. I'd be fine with a hit in standards of living if we left the world stage, and started taking care of our own again.
>>77817369
Don't worry France. The spice will flow. Even Trump says WTO, NATO, and the UN are essential to his trade and foreign policy on his official campaign website.
Since /pol/ has become dominated by entitled conservative SJW twits with no respect for rule of law and boners for strongmen it's easy to look here and feel helpless. But, out in the real world people that support Trump, Brexit, Mercantilism, ethnic nationalism, low-skill jobs, shame culture, autocrats, etc... none of them have any future. In their hearts they know it's true. To the extent that /pol/ isn't Astroturfed active measures it's a support group for "battered wives".
>>77823120
This guy gets it. I don't care about 'superpower' status. I just care about us getting left alone. Everyone else... meh. People seem to forget the only reason we ascended to superpower status was because we had to. Everyone else was btfo from ww2 and incapable of dealing with the Russians.
>>77824697
I don't think that kind of power will be relinquished without war.
I always enjoy watching irrelevant countries justifying why they should be able to strong arm the US to do what they want for free.
Why don't you elect another communist and reduce your work week by another ten hours. Why don't you go ahead and continue importing islam and bankrupting your welfare state.
>>77824385
Let's be real here:
1. NATO is expanding and modernizing
2. Free Trade is booming
3. "The Second World" has a lower average standard of living than Angola.
4. The world is coming together over climate change
5. Extrasolar habitable planets are being discovered every month
>>77825681
Man, all I have to do is hold out for another 50 years and maybe my consciousness will get uploaded to the cloud and I can play Skyrim forever.
>>77824385
Wow that really made me think.
I hate non Americans.
So fucking annoying.
>>77821893
And then you wonder why people dislike you Americans.
I hope my children's children will see the say when your last gated community gets stormed by shitskins and the last white American babby gets its life raped out of its little body by Tyrone.
A fucking frog who gets it.
>>77822299
If you're actually Serbian congratulations on being the least butthurt of all the men in your country. Seriously, kudos to you.
>>77826608
Bro, let me remind you that in 200 years of Serbian Nationalism, the goal has always been to free ourselves from the Eastern slavers and join the club of Western nations where we rightfully belong. I'm just holding true.
Am I only American who doesn't give a shit if the US remains a superpower or not?
As long as the nation is prospering, I don't care whether we're on top globally.
>>77817369
Fearmongerers out.
The scenario you describe is massively improbable an impossible to know for sure if it will happen - blatant fearmongering in "what if" style against USA's return to isolationism.
USA's continued intervention into nearly every country on earth is beneficial only and only to globalists and internationalist bankers, whom can easily be counted as an enemy of every rational and moral man.
>>77827542
So you would rather they gtfo out of Europe and left you to the mercy of Germany and Russia again?
>>77827542
This guy gets it.
>>77827798
Yes.
>>77827798
America loses a lot because of their worldwide presence. Meanwhile, they also create nations dependant on them, which is the new model of an empire. If the majority of the nations is dependant on USA and USA is losing because of that - whom will they turn to?
And to answer you, I would rather my country be self-reliant and faced with real problems, than keep existing as it is due to some foreign force with no clear intent.
>>77827542
>Rational and moral man
>Speaking in absolutes
>Arguing in ad hominem
>Offering bigoted caricatures as only support
>Denouncing America and globalism on the American internet
Let me put this in a way that's familiar to you: You're the poster child of the alt-right goy. You're at war with the future.
Should have listened to Patton and MacArthur
>>77817369
>Base in Argentina
wat m8? They try to have a base here during the last decade and we say no everytime. Fake map.
Of course, Macri just approve have not only one but two american bases but they didn't came yet.
>>77827542
Every Empire who lost his influence generated conflicts on the new "free zone", that's not fear-mongering at all nor "improbable", just legitimate interrogation on what would happen and the consequences.
Just think about the difference between Europe in 450 AD and 480, the day the Western Roman Empire was over the world was massively transformed.
An interesting parallel with Rome by the way is that the Empire was considered as an attractive place by the barbaric immigration (the "barbaric invasion" were not really invasion, they were a population displacement, we don't really know why but there are various hypothesis about climatic changes in Asia).
Basically these tribes asked for the protection of Rome in exchange of submitting to its authority (ie: political structure), however they asked to have their own communities with proper hierarchy and laws (that happened with the Goths between 380 and 420).
The Empire authorized that, mostly because that implied to deleguate the frontiers defense of the Empire, however they doomed themself in the process, basically they favorited the rise of an alternative political structure: the barbaric kingdom which progressively eroded the power of Rome by acquiring its onw until it falls less than 100 years later.
>china has the US by the balls
Their economy is dependent on us and they pose no threat militarily. I don't believe that is accurate but maybe if your definition of "having someone by the balls" is throwing temper tantrums over an irrelevant island
The US should continue to control the oceans.
The US should stay out of the Middle East and Middle-East conflicts.
The US should become energy-independent.
The US should leave any NATO country that refuses to keep it's 2% minimum or at least pay 100% of the cost for hosting US troops there. There's no reason we should foot your bill for defense.
These are not outlandish things, these are common-sense things, and none of it would hurt us in the slightest. It might hurt YOU, Western Europeans, who've devolved into socialist hellholes because you've outsourced your military needs to a foreign country for 60 years. Us leaving would mean all your freebie gimmies would evaporate because you'd have to grow your own military again.
But seriously, stop thinking so highly of yourselves. You're not that important. Us closing down an airbase doesn't suddenly mean, by magic, the US is no longer a superpower. After all, how do you think we got that airbase to begin with? Oh right, soft power. Economic and political coercion. It's how we've managed to... you know... secure airbases in former Soviet Bloc countries as recently as four years ago.
>>77817369
There's literally no country on the planet strong enough to compete with us or pose a threat to us in any sphere of public life.
We have everything we need here at home.
>>77831415
I should add that the Pax Romana was one if not the major reason of the economic boom, when the Western Empire fell there was a massive economic recession in Europe, the "Dark Ages" expression is a great exageration by the english scholars but there is truth in the fact that when the Roman supremacy was over people were lost, it took centuries to come back near the same level of prosperity that Roman military hegemony instaured in Europe.
>>77829315
Faggot. I'm left-wing and feel the same way. Our country has been driven 19 trillion+ into debt to provide security for some international corporate elite. The American left has been overthrown by identity-politic worshiping globalists. We're going to Make America Great Again.
>>77822427
>I don't even speak about the cost of bringing home all the equipments and people.
a lot of times they scrap it there, sell it, or blow it up if it's new tech they don't want people having.
>>77822299
Ubij se nesreco.
>>77826374
Tough shit, this is how we make America great again You fuckers got to fuck with Europe for a long ass time yourselves but did not manage to do it right. We are still only starting our turn of fucking with the world.
>>77817369
Everyone is always bitching about Americas presence in the world. I'm so tired of it. I don't give a shit if we aren't a super power anymore. The truth is we just don't have what it takes to be a super power for much longer. Every nation always does this. They become a super power, stretch themselves thin and die. I don't want that to happen.
I honestly don't give a fuck what happens to the rest of the world. I understand the importance of our global military but you have to see that we are being sucked dry and we can't even get a thank you.
I don't give a shit if Japan and China go to war. Fuck them, let them do what they want. W
Why do we have to be the world peacekeepers. its a thankless job and its bleeding us dry. I am also really tired of the U.S. being the center of attention. Every little thing we do gets us criticized even when it doesn't affect anyone but citizens.
Its too much pressure to be a world emperor.
Trump will be the last period of greatness in Americas history until our leaders start spreading ourselves thin in international affairs again.
>>77833555
America is dead m8. Stop the delusion. There needs to be mass deportations and a new constitution to make it what it was. We're 60 percent white and shrinking and the rot is infecting every part of our society.
>>77820918
You'll rip your own shit stained underwear out and wave it in surrender the instant a foreign army invades. Shut the fuck up.
>>77833555
Those trips don't lie.
>>77833741
We will recover and become whole again.
>>77832221
Economic softpower and military presence are linked,
An example is Poland, military presence guarantees security of investment, it allows US companies to access the Polish market, a country with a high population and an important potential for economic growth during the next decades.
For example is a 33 billions market for army modernization for the last 10 years in Poland.
You probably heard about the 5 billions deal on Patriot missiles lastly.
The whole Cold War is a living example of that, what would have happen to USA if they did not stay in Japan or Western Germany for example ?
>>77833210
I'm right and you know it. Vuk Draskovic is right. Fuck your Russia and your China. We let fucking Albanians be more relevant than us, instead of a civilized Christian country serving the interest of the United States, a country that actually respects it's allies we let fucking shqiptar scum do it. Albos, a tribal people that hold absolutely no values similar to that of the US. All because of the megalomaniac idiot that wanted to be the next Tito. A literal Russian proxy. Fuck you kys
>>77832702
You're the elite. The US debt is from spending on social programs. The Marshall Plan and UN MDGs are making money for the US. The US economy is healthy in spite of what you think. "American Nationalism" is pan-ethnic and people publicly critical of "identity politics" are usually projecting their own degenerate narcissism and almost always follow up the accusations with demands for affirmative accommodation. Meme though and cancer cross political lines. The present West/America will always be the future of the world.
>>77833820
Sure, you're big tough guy, now check your glycemia before mom find you unconscious under your seat.
>>77834972
>You're the elite.
Fat chance. I'm only elite in that I get to enjoy the currency bubble our nation sits on while the 1% sucks our nation dry.
>The US debt is from spending on social programs.
It's a part, but it'd be much more manageable without our foreign interventionism. The Afaghanistan and Iraq wars alone cost up to 6 trillion. That's not even going into how much welfare our soldiers and military industrial complex need to stay afloat and relevant.
We've let our country become entangled in world affairs to a degree that would make the founding fathers weep. The petrodollar is a disgrace and as if dying for Israel wasn't bad enough, some get to die for Saudi Arabia. A nation that gives comfort to terrorist ideologies and decapitates apostates.
>defending identity politics
>still using the word degenerate
10/10 troll or Hillary supporter. I can't tell which.
>>77817369
You people amaze me.
One minute its "OMG, amerifats are killing the planet and our culture is sooooo superior anyway. they should all just go home."
The next its our fault that we're not shoving enough of our money up your asses for the privilege of calling you "trading partners," all the while stealing our tech and selling it to our enemies.
So how is it any of your business if we leave your shitty little countries better than we found them, clean up our own back yards, use our own resources and build a new home-based economy for ourselves?
Running low on Danegeld again?
>>77836446
You should make that USA/Israel.
>>77817369
>what is overextension?
>>77817394
>The thing is China have USA by the balls
Oh look it's this meme again
>>77817369
America is playing the game quite rationally when you look the map. They are afraid of unified Eurasia that could crush them like insects.
>>77838260
I can see why a Finn would want a new Mongol Empire.
