Protestant here
Can you catholic and orthodox bastards please explain how Mary remained a virgin, despite it clearly saying in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts and Galatians that Jesus had brothers and sisters?
What proof do you have that they are Joseph's from another marriage?
What proof do you have that Joseph was married once before Mary?
Why is it so terrible to think Mary had relations with her husband after Jesus was born?
>>76140487
>despite it clearly saying in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts and Galatians that Jesus had brothers and sisters?
[citation needed]
>>76140526
Matthew 12:46
>While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.
Matthew 12:47
>Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”
Matthew 13:55
>“Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?
Mark 3:31
>Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him.
Mark 3:32
>A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”
Luke 8:19
>Now Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd.
Luke 8:20
>Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.”
John 2:12
>After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples. There they stayed for a few days.
Acts 1:14
>They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.
Galatians 1:19
>I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother.
bump because catholics BTFO
Ssh, they need her to be perpetually virgin to suit the pagan origins from which their worship of her is derived.
>>76141782
Woah one of my countrymen not shitposting
Good work
>>76141217
Demolished
BTFO
>>76141217
catholicucks BTFO
>>76140526
Romanists proving how ignorant they are of scripture.
>>76141217
>Protestant Mistranslation
Huh really makes you think.
>>76141217
His "Brothers" are just his deciples.
>>76140487
Argie Protestant here. Can Americans tell me their views on Baptists?
>>76141866
Fight the good fight, brother.
>>76141217
Obviously refers to the apostles.
>>76142097
>I don't have an argument and I'll make a meme instead
Adopted.
>>76140487
There was no word for "cousin" in Aramaic. If one wanted to refer to the cousin relationship, one has to use a circumlocution such as “the son of his uncle” (brona d-`ammeh). This often is too much trouble, so broader kinship terms are used that don’t mean “cousin” in particular; e.g.,ahyana("kinsman"),qariwa("close relation"), ornasha("relative"). One such term isaha, which literally means “brother” but is also frequently used in the sense of “relative, kinsman.”
I think the orthodox believe they are Joseph's kids from a previous marriage.
>>76141674
I'm not trying to BTFO, but I just don't understand how they can call us heretics over something straight up in writing.
A lot of the shit the Orthodox and Catholics believe and practice are not in the Bible at all.
If they're the early writers of the Bible, why didn't they include it in the Bible?
It just doesn't seem herectical for Mary to have relations with her husband AFTER Jesus was born.
If anything seems Herectical its how they raise Mary up to the level of God and call her Queen of Heaven, and pray to her and the saints instead of God alone.
It seems like the Catholics trades their Roman plethora of gods in for a plethora of saints.
The "Eternal Virgin" theory emerged much later when there were many Christian churches and the Roman Catholic church was trying to get a monopoly. To discount any kin they could then discount the early Christian jews, some who had a claim of being of Jesus's bloodline.
>>76140487
why do you half-christians are so obsessed with small details and don't look at the big picture?
She was declared virgin because of some political reasons, I don't feel hurt by this, I pray the Holy Virgin Mary and I will pray her even is she was not virgin.
She is the mother of Jesus and she is in paradise watching and caring for us.
>>76142196
It would make a lot more sense for them to actually be his brothers though.
Why would Joseph not tap that after Jesus was born?
>>76142112
>>76142132
Are there any Scriptures that allude to this interpretation being correct?
>>76142196
In Old Testament Law, adopted siblings/step-siblings/whatever, counted as full-blooded siblings.
>>76142113
Baptist are the worst. Literally no fun allowed. No drinking, smoking, gambling, or dancing. Now these this aren't great for you but at least there isn't a ban on them in Catholocism. Also they will tell you to your face with a smile that you will go to hell. Fucking cringey fuckers.
>>76142274
>Praying to Mary
But that's not how it works
>>76142138
Sure why not, you don't seem like someone willing to change his point of view, so while fight it? If you really want to I encourage you to look up for differences in Bible's translation and why the word "brother" was chosen when translating.
>>76140487
The answer is literally here:
http://www.catholic.com/blog/matt-fradd/jesus-had-brothers
>The first thing to understand is that the term brother (Gk. adelphos) has a broader meaning than uterine brothers. It can mean a biological brother, but it can also mean an extended relative, or even a spiritual brother.
>Take Genesis 13:8 for example. Here the word brother is being used to describe the relationship between Abraham and Lot, who were not biological brothers but uncle and nephew:
>“So Abram said to Lot, “Let’s not have any quarreling between you and me, or between your herdsmen and mine, for we are brothers” (Gen 13:8, NIV; see also 14:12).
>Because of the Bible’s broad semantic range of “brother,” we can rest assured that although St. Paul writes, “[Jesus] appeared to more than five hundred…brothers at the same time” (1 Cor. 15:6), we need not infer from this verse that Mary gave birth to more than 500 children!
>These “brothers” are never once called the children of Mary, although Jesus himself is (John 2:1; Acts 1:14).
And more in the link.
Happy to help, OP.
>>76142132
No, because Jesus was with his disciples when the people told him his mother and brothers were at the gate looking for him.
>>76141975
Anon, they aren't allowed to read the Bible. Only priests are holy enough to interpret the holy book!
>>76142353
You kinda do. You pray and ask her to ask Jesus to help you. She can't do anything by herself but she can ask her son to help you.
>>76142345
I ask because being protestant here make people confuse. Most are catholics and they think I'm baptist... Basically Protestant = Baptist. Catholics say to me that most Americans are from that religion.
>>76142519
Then why don't you just pray to Jesus?
>>76142274
>>76142219
I can see how is wrong to elevate Mary to a goddess level, and I'm against such practices in the later Church, but still there is some level of spiritual importance to her in the hierarchy. And she is also a great example for most women, and I believe that nowadays that's what people need the most.
>>76142323
>any scriptures allude to this interpretation being correct
I'm fairly certain Acts 1:14, which he quoted, refers to Pentecost. Where the remaining apostles prayed with marry after Jesus died and the Holy Spirit came to them and allowed them to speak in many languages. Unless Jesus was related to every fucking apostle, he had no brothers.
>>76142548
Because she's the one you talk to when Jesus is mad at your dumb ass. Jesus is our brother and Mary is our mother. So when your brother is angry with you who do you ask to moderate? Your mother.
>>76142285
Making rational conclusions like that is irrelevant. Catholic and orthodox dogmas have evolved over the past 2000 years to establish certain principles to create specific conclusions, and oftentimes logic thrown out the window to establish said principles. See >>76142196, which you replied to. The idea of Papal infallibility, for instance, validates Marian freedom of sin and virginity. Logic is irrelevant, since all you need is faith in Church dogma. It's literally the epitome of Christian thinking.
>>76142548
We do. We also ask for the saints to pray for us just as we would a living faithful. The church transcends life and death, the communion of saints being the church triumphant.
>>76142548
It haves something to do with how she asked him to turn water into wine. Supposedly, you are asking for God's merciful side through her.
>>76142679
> Because she's the one you talk to when Jesus is mad at your dumb ass. Jesus is our brother and Mary is our mother. So when your brother is angry with you who do you ask to moderate? Your mother.
Retard theology
>>76142706
> Logic is irrelevant, since all you need is faith in Church dogma. It's literally the epitome of Christian thinking.
Exactly. Romanism is circular logic.
After making things up as they go and contradicting the same scriptures that interpret to derive their authority from they then go on to say well tradition trumps scripture.
>>76142274
Why would you and catholics and orthodox pray to Mary?
That seems like heresy.
Sure, she was special, but that'd be like praying to Moses, or Peter or the saints?
Why do you people pray to saints?
Have no gods before me.
No one comes to the Father except through me/The Son.
You should be either praying to God alone, to Jesus to God, to God and Jesus, or God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Praying to the saints for different abilities and gimmicks seems no different that praying to roman gods for different things like June for Marriage or Mars for war.
You guys even have patron saints, just like the greeks and romans had patron gods of temples and cities.
>>76142551
>Tips fedora
>>76142534
I don't know if most Americans are baptist or not. I know it's mostly Protestant. Some Protestants are better than other. Methodist and Lutherins are pretty chill but in America Calvinist, Mormans and Baptist are the worst. They take everything in the Bible literally and will always try to pick fights if they find out your Catholic.
>>76142519
Why not just ask all-powerful Jesus himself?
>>76142675
That passage in Acts seems to refer (equally as validly) to Jesus' family who were with the Apostles in Jerusalem.
>>76142353
It work for me. I pray her more than Jesus.
If I have a minor request or doubt, I ask to the relevant saint in charge of the office.
I pray Saint Rose when I have to pass a school exam, and Saint Antony if my dog is ill. Why should I bother Jesus with these stupid things.
>>76142749
Why pray to a dead person? Who is physically dead.
God is omniscient. This happens when pagan thought infiltrates Christianity. Yahweh is not on par with whatever pagan conception of god you have in your mind. He can do all.
>>76142852
But it isn't just Catholicism, its the entirety of Christian thought. Protestantism is exactly the same, but it derives its conclusions strictly from scripture as opposed to the nebulous tradition of the Papists. Logic isn't required to back up those assertions, since all you need is faith in what scripture establishes.
>>76142920
> . They take everything in the Bible literally and will always try to pick fights if they find out your Catholic.
You are a moronic liberal I see
>>76142931
Damnit you guys are retarded
You are asked to pray to God for all your problems
>>76142870
Key word >before
We do not elevate saints above God but understand that they are closer to him then we so we ask for their guidance and intercession.
>>76143022
I agree. Your denomination? But Christian faith isn't entirely fidestic.
>>76143098
Closer to him? I guess if you are a Roman Catholic and ergo not Christian nor saved you aren't close to God. Why bother talking to the dead. You're still going to Hell. Why not just go to God.
>>76140487
>Thinking that cucklics care about logic
whew lad there's your problem.
>>76142920
Then what kind of Protestants Americans are? I though you guys were Lutherans.
>>76143194
Most are just Evangelical.
The biggest groups are Baptist, Lutherans and Methodist.
And down there is Episcopalians and Presbyterians.
>>76143028
The Bible is not all literal. There is a great deal of myth and symbolism. If you literally believe that God created everything in 7 days and that Moses put 2 of every animal on a boat then your are the moron.
>>76143189
That picture is based off Catholic imagery
>>76142928
His "family" were the apostles and all of us. Like a spiritual family, or like how niggers call each other brothas. We're family too, a shitposting family.
>>76143111
I'm Catholic, but I don't practice the religious aspect of the religion much, as a result of the previous points I've made. I've been drifting away from the Church over the course of 10 years now, but I still identify as Catholic because the theological and doctrinal aspects have always been of interest to me from an anthropological standpoint. You?
>>76142519
This is what I'm talking about and why I'm protestant
You people play a ridiculous game of telephone
You have to ask a preist to hear your sins in a box
You pray to Mary to ask Jesus who asks God
You pray to saints who "preside" over different aspects of life like traveling, marriage, family, gifts.
Isn't the greatest thing about Jesus that you just had to have the faith?
Last time I checked, God was Almighty, Infallible, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent.
Do you Catholics believe God can't hear and fulfill all your prayers alone?
And what about his thousands of angels?
Can't God send his angels instead of giving dominion to saints?
>>76143269
> If you literally believe that God created everything in 7 days and that Moses put 2 of every animal on a boat then your are the moron.
You're a liberal who picks and chooses what he likes
>>76143382
Anglican. But Calvinist in my soteriology.
>>76143333
I agree in sentiment with your post, but I'm not getting the same reading as you from Acts 1.
Nice quads
>>76143189
>logic
This, exactly. Faith and logic are on different plane of existence. They are both real but follow different laws.
>>76142285
Show some respect. Disgusting language.
>>76143482
That's interesting. How exactly do you rationalize predestination, given that humans have free will? I ask this legitimately as I've always read about it but never spoken to a person who actually espoused it as part of their belief system.
>>76143482
You may not have caught I said Moses had an arc. I have literally met Protestants who believe Moses built the arc. Explain to me how God created everything in 7 days yet we have scientific evidence relating to the creation of earth and evaluation?
>>76143551
We're all family familia f a m. I do see where the interpretation could be wierd. I feel like it makes more sense in Greek or Latin, but the best way we can put it in english is by using brother. Not in the biological sense, but kinda like a band of brothers sort of sense.
Mary is the Ark of the Covenant.
>>76143028
Flip here. We pray for the holy trinity at most times. That includes God, Jesus, and the holy spirit.
Though most of my people back in Flipland consider the holy spirit as Mary and Joseph. Don't know why.
>>76143267
Is Christ-Chan Baptist? Aren't all of thoses groups Evangelical?
>>76143711
I think you may be conflating two different senses of the word 'brother', but I don't think we're going to come to an agreement at any rate. Agree to disagree? :^)
>>76143799
Christ Chan is Catholic.
The Mary-worshipers make up bullshit to explain it away.
"Brothers" are actually "spiritual brothers" and "Sisters" are actually Jesus's female cousins or some shit..
>>76143799
Christ-chan is usually depicted as a fundamentalist Protestant - not necessarily referring to any denomination in particular. I have seen Catholic drawings of her though.
>>76143853
Christ-Chan is completely non-denominational
>>76143695
((Symbolism)) yea more people should look into that.
>>76140487
American, every single time.
The so called brothers weee not literal brothers which you would know had you ever actually studied the texts and culture.
On the cross Jesus handed Mary to John and said "Behold your mother." Mary wasn't John's mother, but the act of entrusting these two to each other as if they were mother and son underlines Mary had no other children.
Only religious illiterates and arrogant heretics keep peddling their falsehoods on this topic,
>>76143194
There are over 10,000 different Christian denominations operating in the US.
>>76143877
Do Protestants not understand that Mary is literally the Mother Of God? Mary carried Jesus within her and birthed him.m, and then she had to give him up for our conversion and forgiveness by his death. Protestants just shit on Mary and do not seem to care what she did for us.
>>76142955
>believing god had a son
>not itself pagan thought
The Lord is our God. The Lord is One.
>>76140487
>Can you catholic and orthodox bastards please explain how Mary remained a virgin, despite it clearly saying in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts and Galatians that Jesus had brothers and sisters?
Sure thing brah
>Christ, ..was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him... "brothers" really means "cousins" here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers. (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4.1537-39).
-Martin Luther
>>76144109
Let me guess... "There is no God but God and Muhammad is his prophet", right?
>>76143267
>Episcopalian
Wherever there are three Episcopalians, there's a fifth. ;)
>>76144037
But wich one is the most popular or official?
>>76143994
>so called brothers
They call them out by name dumbass.
>"Is this not the carpenter’s son? Isn’t His mother’s name Mary, and aren’t His brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas? Aren’t all His sisters with us as well?"
>>76144109
>The Lord is our God. The Lord is One.
I never got that, if he is one entity? Then why is he represented as three things? And it appears that three parts of the trinity can act apart from another.
>>76144238
I thought Catholics were the big drinkers. Most of the Catholics I know like to imbibe.
>>76144079
Why do you keep changing the subject though?
The only one you should pray to is God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.
That's it. Trying to say you should pray to saints because they are closer to God is no better then ancestor worship.
>>76144287
What does adelphos mean?
>>76143939
She does have the cross on her neck but never seen her wearing rosary beads. Could agree she depicts Christianity as a whole.
>>76144079
No one is trying to shit on Mary.
Mary would still be considered a Holy figure if she had other children.
I believe Mary was a virgin and Jesus was conceived immaculately, but why would she not have relations with her husband afterwards, whats so horrible about Mary not remaining a virgin? She was married, so whats the problem?
>>76144321
The church is transcendent. You ask your priest or minister for guidance occasionally right? The saints and Mary do the same.
>>76144434
Yeah, I agree. It's best if she doesn't prescribe to any one denomination anyway desu
>>76144434
We don't wear the Rosary, at least not in America.
>>76144321
You don't pray TO the saints you pray THROUGH the saints. Just like you pray through Mary.
>>76144079
Have you read the Bible, good sir? How often is Mary even mentioned? She's a part player, almost a cameo appearance.
If she was so important, she would be extensively covered throughout the NT. (And Jesus himself wouldn't be so dismissive of her.)
>>76143165
Those who die in Christ live in Christ, we ask for their prayers as you would ask your living brethren. Although no devotion should take precedence over Christ.
>>76141217
>>76140526
I'm not a Christcuck but wow.
>>76140487
http://www.2think.org/hii/virgin.shtml
virgin mary is a mistranslation from greek
you fags will believe anything.
>>76143433
Protestants play the same game of telephone asking one another to pray for each other, there's nothing wrong with it. God delights in everyone helping and participating in salvation.
>>76144628
She is the main character of the beginning of each Gospel. She convicted Jesus to use his powers for the first time to change water to wine. She buries him after he is crucified.
>>76143948
The Catholic Church is the original "non-denomination" it existed before there was such a thing as denominations.
>>76144945
Yes and then we held a council and decided on what was fact and what was fiction.
>>76144610
We mostly carry it around in our wallets, pockets, purse, bags etc. Those who wears them are either serving the church or just crazy religious.
PROTTIE HERETICS OUT
>>76144350
Look at the context of the passage.
>The people are like wtf, how is this local guy some messiah? Isn't this the same kid that grew up down the block? Didn't his Dad build these houses? Isn't his Mom named Mary? Didn't him and his brothers and sisters use to play down by the quarry? He is one of us, how can he be God?"
They are listing his actual family. They mention his Father, then they call out his mother by name, then call out his Brothers by name, then mention the sisters. They are enumerating his nuclear family.
This is perfectly clear.
>>76141217
Read the original, it's easy to deduce shit from a translation.
>>76144619
>>76144550
Why do you insist upon this answer like your in a cult?
1 John 5:14
>And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us
God hears a prayer directly, there is no need for this saint intermediary.
>>76143433
This is also why I have a big hang up with Cathotholicism. Too much Roman tradition that seems to run counter of what Jesus taught.
>>76144937
Aye, all thats true.
But throughout most of the stories she is just another anonymous member of the chorus, i.e. one of the "the women who tended to him". She's a camp follower.
And he isn't particularly concerned with her welfare except that bit at the end where he gives her away as he dies. In some other passages he is almost disrespectful of her.
>>76143270
No its of anime imagery. Either way you are totally right that Catholics (and orthodox) have the best art, I however don't pick my religion based on art.
The "trigger" for me confronting you guys about this tonight is, this Eternal Virgin stuff is like an out front messsage of the catholic and orthodox church.
I'm protestant, but I thought why not maybe see what I'm missing and sit in on a Orthodox mass, or ask a Orthodox church whats it all about.
But the nearest Orthodox church has this
http://www.snwoca.org/
>Holy Father Nicholas, Pray unto God for us sinners!
See, that seems super herectical to call anyone Holy Father, but God himself.
So calling priests father, calling the Pope father, and calling saints father seems bad.
Then
>With the help of God, the Most Holy Ever-Virgin Theotokos, our Patron Saint St. Nicholas the Wonderworker
No mention of Jesus. Nor the Holy spirit.
>>76146570
You're doing a good thing for us on the fence.
>>76145845
Orthodox has nicer interiors if I based on medias though never been in one. Catholic churches have some nice stain glass art but varies on architectural design.
>>76142112
Matthew 12:46-50King James Version (KJV)
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Honestly, why would you possibly believe this?
>>76144703
Seems like devotion to anyone but the Trinity is heresy.
>>76146570
Well this gives me peace. I felt something was seriously off about this Mary worship and this "saint" worship. Thank you.
Joseph the Cuck: My wife's Son of God
>>76145282
What do you know about NT?
>>76143619
We don't. But Semi-compatibilism
>>76140487
The bible wasn't written in english, brother in biblical context does not mean what brother in English means
>>76147370
If I were you I'd go Presbyterian. Just research Calvinism. PCUSA is liberal cesspit like the RCC and other mainline denominations. Go OPC or PCA
If you have any doubts about the RCC
See
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bVEXZ38Vs8
>>76140487
She was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, not his brothers
>>76149013
http://biblehub.com/greek/80.htm
Read this
It depends on the context
In that context its blood brother
>>76142395
This 'brother' bullshit is rekt the fuck out right here in this response, if any protestant wants to read it, feel free.
>>76144218
kek'd at this
>>76141217
>48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”
brothers = disciples
leave thread you godless heathen
>>76144218
Luther was a Catholic monk
So it did influence him too
>>76144238
Its 4 episcopalians
>>76149126
Yes, everyone believes that
But Catholics and Orthodox call her the Holy Ever-Virgin, Theotokos, and Eternal virgin
They believe she never laid with Joseph, they make up excuses for the Mary and Jesus' brothers versus' saying it means cousins, or brothers like black people used (despite Jesus responding to this by saying that his real brothers are not his only brothers, that mankind his is brothers) or they say Joseph was a widower with children when he married Mary.
>>76149470
That just proves my point
The crowd was telling Jesus his real brothers were looking for him.
Jesus responded by saying all men are his brothers.
Why would Jesus respond in such a way if the crowd was telling him his mankind brothers were looking for him?
Thats the entire point of the passage.
The crowd tries to make the kin of blood more important that the kin of love.
>>76144833
>helping out and participating in Salvation
No. The Reformation started because Protestants recognized that salvation comes through faith in Christ alone, apart from works or efforts that an individual puts forth. Solo Christos, Sola Fide, etc
>>76149434
Even if the interpretation of brother is ambiguous (it's not but you are in denial), what proof do Catholics claim for Mary remaining a virgin? Why wouldn't Joseph have normal relations with her? It's not even logical.
>>76151844
Who cares, protestants took a decent religion and made it the most cucked religion on the planet. They should all be burned.
>>76140487
Mary is the new Eve and Jesus is the new Adam. The story of Adamand Eve is a parable about premarital sex. Mary and Jesus remained virgins to redeem humanity.
>>76152179
That is easily the most fucking retarded and possibly blasphemous thing interpretation I have heard yet.
>>76152179
>Mary and Jesus remained virgins to redeem humanity.
Mary redeemed humanity? Mary died on the croass? Mary twas the pashal lamb?
>>76152171
>protestants took a decent religion and made it the most cucked religion on the planet
protestants actually dominate the world and prosperous and powerfull countries, I wouldnt call that cucking + many catholic countries liek Spain and Brazil are very degenerate but noone mentions that
>>76140487
The word for Cousin in old times was brother/sister.
Protestant btw
>>76152674
Whats the old time word for brother and sister then?
Smart guy?
>>76152674
>The word for Cousin in old times was brother/sister.
weather mother stayed virgin isnt actualy important, the problem is Mary worship which is actually Isis worship (=worshiping the Queen of Heaven as was known in the religon of Babylon)...and most catholic have absolutly no idea what they are participating in.
>Jeremiah 7:18: The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the QUEEN OF HEAVEN. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger.
>>76152505
All the protestant countries are ground zero for degeneracy. You can even compare the worst catholic countries to any protestant country.
The only degenerates in brazil are the people who descend from slaves and indians, who were never catholic to begin with.
>>76153147
But Heretics are only slightly better than degenerates.
Protestant FTW
>>76152918
I'm not even Christian and I think it's fucking weird that Catholics worship the Virgin Mary, or any Saints for that matter.
don't get me wrong, John Paul II and Boethius were both badasses, but it makes zero fucking sense why Catholics worship anyone other than Jesus or God
even I get the fucking Trinity and I don't get saint worship
>>76153280
you're not wrong.
>>76153147
>All the protestant countries are ground zero for degeneracy. You can even compare the worst catholic countries to any protestant country.
that is not completly true, for instance Russia is an extremly degenertate country (abortions, alcholism), and Brazil also (child prostitution, bizzare promisculity, zoofilia), most of their deneracy remains unchecked compared to prot countries becuase unlike them protestant countries have much mroe mass media and a culture of transparency so its under the magnifier
>>76153280
>I get the fucking Trinity and I don't get saint worship
Trinity is actually very logical. kudos!
>>76153326
can someone explain this to me? I can understand studying a famous Catholic and thinking they're super awesome, but treating them as intermediaries to Jesus or God seems completely opposite to the whole First Commandment business
>>76153518
yeah the Trinity makes sense to me but only because I'm a neutral monist. I see Jesus and the Holy Ghost as extensions of God, so it makes sense that all three are equal
>>76153277
What good is a religion that destroys the foundation of society. Christianity will cease to exist on earth thanks to protestants.
>>76153518
>unchecked compared to prot countries
complete fucking bullshit. Also there is plenty of degeneracy in catholic countries because the reformation ruined catholicism. Vatican two would have never happened without the protistant cucks influance over europe.
>>76153771
>degenerate protestants
I even here this meme here in croatia, yet everyone tries to immigarate to protestant countries.
pic rel
>>76153771
and the Protestant reformation wouldn't have happened if the Catholic Church didn't try to control secular authorities the way they did
why do you think the House of Orange-Nassau let people in the Netherlands do whatever?
they got sick of the Church telling them what to do all the fucking time
plus the Church was just bad for business
>>76153939
can you ever read a map?
I see catholic countries with the lowest rates of abortion. and USSR with the highest.
>>76153968
yeah great now we have the secular authorities running this, and look how things have turned out, Europe wont even be Europe anymore, because they care nothing about heritage and culture.
>>76153280
Saint worshipers are polytheists and idolaters, really. The Roman Catholic worship of saints stems from the original Roman-Pagan pantheon.
>>76154270
>can you ever read a map?
well its not the best example I admit.
Compare then catholic South america to protestant North America? Mexico vs USA or Brazil/Argentina to any prot coutnry?
Can you say that Mexico is not a degenerate coutnry solely on that that it doesnt have same sex marriages and it version of George Soros?
Mexico is by far more degenerate that any prot country, so it Brazil.
>>76154353
meanwhile the Pope compares the foogies to Jesus Christ, while the fucking Dalai Lama is the voice of reason that Europeans shouldn't sacrifice their identity
>>76154566
I don't see how the Catholic Church supported that shit for over a thousand years without realizing that it's contradictory
>>76140487
Reminder that mary worship is ashera, astaroth, queen of heaven worship.
>>76154651
>meanwhile the Pope compares the foogies to Jesus Christ
already explained buddy, the reformation forced a change in the catholic church to liberalize like the protestants.
>>76153581
Intermediation:
Well, it's a thing called "communion of saints" and it's so important that is matter of faith in the Creed:
>I believe in the Holy Spirit,
>the holy catholic Church,
>the communion of saints,
>the forgiveness of sins,
>the resurrection of the body,
>and the life everlasting.
And is related with the Holy Spirit, which is Whom is born from the Father and The Son Love and makes a lot of different people an ecclesia, an assembly, a single body.
Trinitry:
You are wrong in the esence. They are God, but They are not the same. And They are not equal.
This is too long to explain.
Mary: John 2.
That's the relationship between Mary and the Chirstians.
>>76154566
English have the St. George cross in their flag and nobody says a shit about a protestant County which salutes the icon of a Catholic Saint.
The fact that Tradition is inherently important in the christianism is the fundamental flaw in the Protestantism.
Anyway the constant bashing and attention given by the Protestants to the Catholic is the proof of who is or not a Christian.
>>76154645
>Compare then catholic South america to protestant North America?
1. Catholic is the largest christian denomination in the US.
2. America is full of slaves and natives that never took the religion and only mixed it with the religion the already had.
You are not making a fair comparison in the Americas because you are comparing white people to brown people and not white to white.
>>76140487
Look, a Protestant who can't read the Bible.
>>76154842
>protestants
>liberals
maybe all those cucked churches in liberal states
my grandmother is Lutheran as fuck and they are more conservative than my Catholic grandparents were
>>76154951
so are Saints considered pseudo-godlike?
I've always heard that the Trinity states they're all the same entity.
>>76154842
>the reformation forced a change in the catholic church to liberalize like the protestants.
yes and no, post-protestantism influences catholicism in a bad way, with that i agree.
but racemixing is and always was a primarily catholic idea - it was promoted in the mutiracial Portugeese empire, unliek the WASP/protestant ideas of nationalism and racism/racial separation.
>>76155004
>you are not making a fair comparison in the Americas because you are comparing white people to brown people and not white to white.
you are right, religion is not the only factors, lets compare then France vs Britain?
none of them are at a great state right now, but while many people meme the Brits, France is actually far more in danger (higher muslim population, higher divorce + it was the birthplace of atheism and early humanism)
>>76155208
>my grandmother is Lutheran as fuck and they are more conservative than my Catholic grandparents were
this nigga. catholicism is hyperhumanism on a certain level, that is why the current pope is so much proracemixing and anti-nationalism (btw nationalism is a product of reformation unlike multiethic empires of Holy Roman empire for example)
>>76155373
because multi-ethnic empires like Rome, the Holy Roman Empire, and Ottoman Empire survived
>>76155208
>>protestants
>>liberals
>maybe all those cucked churches in liberal states
the doesn't mean anything, protestantism began as a liberal movement, and it's denomination are the most susceptible to continues liberalizing as time goes on.
few conservative individuals mean nothing when the church itself is corrupted.
the lutheran church in america has been ordaining women since the 70s
>>76155622
>began as a liberal movement
yes, liberal as it was back in the day. which basically meant "can we live our lives without monks telling us how to do everything?"
liberals nowadays are all fucking socialists
>>76155235
>France vs Britain
And france has shut down immigration while london has elected a muslim mayor.
all while the church of england is promoting lesbian bishops.
I could not give a better example of how protestantism has completely trashed the ideal of heritage then the church of england.
>>76155489
>Rome, the Holy Roman Empire, and Ottoman Empire survived
protip-they didnt and multiethic states suck to live in you alwas have weird conflicts between gruops and have to treat everything in gloves
>>76155622
>protestantism began as a liberal movement
it might be now, but it didnt started that way, Puritans were radicals in terms of moral, while catholics were far more chill. Protestant theology is still far more conservative and exclusive (i.e. Jesus is the only salvation vs all religions lead to God)
>>76155838
>Puritans
your grasp on history is pretty weak, puritan were a conservative group within the church of england who LOST in their battle for dominance of the church.
>>76156069
>your grasp on history is pretty weak, puritan were a conservative group within the church of england who LOST in their battle for dominance of the church.
you dont say? Puritans were the most influencall group of protestants in the early USA
>>76156193
Because they got ejected from england they all had to come to the USA.
If you haven't noticed their religion is dead.
>protestants once again posting the proofs that their """religion""" is just based on hating Our Lady
Smh desu lad senpai
>>76155622
>few conservative individuals mean nothing when the church itself is corrupted.
this point applies to catholicism as well. fun fact: the catholic church now teaches since lumen gentium in vatican ii that they worship the same god as islam.
>>76155828
The whole "this country is based and doesn't have as many immigrants so this religion is true" is not a very good argument btw.
If you want look at Catholic North America (New England, Quebec) vs Protestant North America (Southern USA, western USA and Canada). 90% Catholic Quebec has the lowest birth, marriage and church attendance rates in the Americas. Those Protestant parts are the conservative parts but that doesn't mean the religion is true.
Also France has not shut down immigration. France is also where the French revolution started and the church in France is pretty much dead, especially compared to the Anglo world.
>>76140487
>Try to use logic to debate religion
Explain how Jesus magically came back to life
>>76156368
I never said catholicism today is Good, even though it is still better than protestant with lesbian bishops.
From the start I said the protestant reformation ruined christianity, meaning all of it.
>Mfw King James Bible
>>76141963
wtf :*(
>>76156500
>I never said catholicism today is Good, even though it is still better than protestant with lesbian bishops.
leasbian bishps are a minorty and in terms of proportion an exeption in protestant world, while pic rel cuckoldfaggotry is top to bottom approved by vatican.
>pic rel refugee ship used as an altar
>>76156368
>the catholic church now teaches since lumen gentium
wat dat? how does it lead to pro-islam position?
>>76156836
Your are willfully blind to not notice the top cuck nation in europe are ground zero for the reformation.
>>76156836
they used to teach before the Second Vatican Council in the 60s that you had to be Catholic submitted to the Roman Pope to be saved, it was an infallible belief ratified in the Council of Trent, now the official church document Lumen Gentium, section 16 says that Muslims worship the same God and can be saved:
"But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind."
The Catholic church also banned the traditional prayers they prayed for the Jews on Good Friday to convert and now pray that they "continue in their covenant" even though their covenant is over. So much for the unchanging chruch.
>>76157048
and the top cuck parts of north america are catholic. this is not an argument for the validity of the religion. being cucked also correlates with being wealthy, doesn't mean it's a cause (though it could be).
>>76156836
The vatican hasn't actually contributed to bringing migrants to europe, unlike your protestant leaders like angela merkel.
>>76157048
>Your are willfully blind to not notice the top cuck nation in europe are ground zero for the reformation.
no Im not, Scandinavia is post-protestant, that is what led to cuckoldry, not protestantism itself which is based and lit
>>76157155
>and the top cuck parts of north america are catholic
that is complete bullshit, Catholics are spread around US, so it is very hard to isolate specific regions.
And you entire country that is mostly protestant is completly cucked.
>>76157158
they have in Canada, as have liberal protestants. The Catholic church is one of the number one sponsors of open borders and amnesty in the united states. Look at the Pope literally holding a mass on the border and condemning those who stop people from crossing borders and putting up walls. Or him comparing Jesus to ISIS. Thing is, he's literally the head authority of your church on earth, whereas Angela Merkel is not any form of spiritual heirarch. I guess if Merkel represents all protestants than Justin Trudeau represents all Catholics.
>>76157196
>Scandinavia is post-protestant
is a natural progression of protestantism to eventually denounced christianity. From the beginning it is a ideology of self indulgence
>>76157158
>The vatican hasn't actually contributed to bringing migrants to europe
dude do you even read the news? Pope is Bono Vox - both are catholics btw.
>unlike your protestant leaders like angela merkel.
see>>76157196
>>76157155
>now the official church document Lumen Gentium, section 16 says that Muslims worship the same God and can be saved:
what is the deal with Islam sympaties in Vatican i have no idea? thanks for the comprehensive answer btw. God bless!
>>76155208
Pseudo?
No, you don't understand.
Christians ARE by definition, Godlike.
Christians share their life with Christ, they are One with Christ the same way Christ is One with the Father in the Holy Spirit.
>John 17:21
>that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You.
That's why saying "I'm Christian" are big words and is not something like saying "I'm Spanish".
So a Christian recognized as Saint, is not an "famous and awesome" human being. It's somebody choosen by God and by His Grace, become His Image.
Trinity longstory short:
The Father is the creator, but don't think about an architect with an eye in a triangle or the bearded oldman, or the iconography in Hollywood. The Father created the Son, or better said "the Father TALKED the Son" because the Son is the Verb.
This is explained by a Jewish concept: the real Word is the Fact. You can understand the concept reading a book called "The Golem" by Gustav Meyrink.
And that's why a lot of biblical characters changes their names due to an Epiphany.
So now we have The Father and The Son. They are part of the same "entity" but different "person". They recognize each other, they Love each other and the Love between they is so strong that a Third person is born: The Holy Spirit.
So each one Has His own nature and attributes.
They are the same, but not the same.
The Fathers of the Church tried to explain and understand this through centuries, so this is a poor explanation of a really complex and deep theology.
Well, the beautifull Orthodox Icons can help us a little bit. Pic related. They share the same esence (face) but each one has their own identity.
But there is no way a Christian denies something like this when is firmly stated in the Gospel:
Matthew 28:19
> Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
>>76157357
1. I am not catholic.
2. The ideals of pope francis come from the changes inflicted on the church by the protestant reformation to begin with.
>>76157475
>what is the deal with Islam sympathies in Vatican i have no idea?
meanwhile in protestant churches.
>http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/10/05/worlds-first-lesbian-bishop-calls-church-remove-crosses-install-muslim-prayer-space/
>>76157327
Canada is more Catholic (40%) than Protestant (30%). The Catholic east part of Canada voted for the Liberal party, Protestant regions such as rural Ontario and the West voted Conservative.
Predominately Catholic areas like Quebec, Ontario, Massachusettes, California, New York, and New Mexico are the most liberal parts.
>>76157695
do you understand the difference between the official teachings of a religion versus a cherrypicked example of someone who is demonstrably not in line with the tenents of the faith?
>>76157456
>is a natural progression of protestantism to eventually denounced christianity.
unlike the decling catholic church in Middle ages that made europe inferior to Islam in terms of power, Protestantism put Christianity back on the world map and it is know the fastest spreading religion in the world
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-fastest-growing.htm
>From the beginning it is a ideology of self indulgence
best example of the culture of self indulgence in catholic dominate fiesta culture + the whole history of Vatican basically
>>76157695
>meanwhile in protestant churches.
>>http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/10/05/worlds-first-lesbian-bishop-calls-church-remove-crosses-install-muslim-prayer-space/
*post-protestant
rest of the prot (like USA) world gives muslims the middle finger while Pope continutes with his soft-theology-multiracial teachings
>>76157923
>bishop not in line with the faith
she is completely in line with her denomination.
but of course you protestants think that sense you are splintered you cannot be held accountable for the actions of the others, but it was the reformation that enabled all of this.
So if you support the reformation you support her actions.
>>76158089
>she is completely in line with her denomination.
so is Pope Francis, isnt he?
>>76140487
>Protestant here
My condolences.
>>76141782
Correct.
Now, "Protestants" tell me where in the book it say 'forget the seventh day, go to church on the first one instead, that'll fuck em."
>>76157959
>rest of the prot (like USA) world gives muslims the middle finger while Pope continutes with his soft-theology-multiracial teachings
what whas that?
>Lutheran Immigration and Refugee Service (LIRS) brought together over 30 Lutheran bishops, pastors, service partners, and leaders for the annual Lutheran Immigration Leadership Summit
>participants to call on Congress and the Administration to champion positive refugee resettlement legislation, protect families by rejecting the practice of family detention, and invest in robust resources for refugees. The day drew to a close with a dinner reception that included remarks from Robert Carey, Director for the Office of Refugee Resettlement, who praised and inspired LILS participants for their dedicated work
http://blog.lirs.org/lutherans-advocate-for-syrian-refugees-in-dc/
>>76158147
already said this like twenty times francis and catholicism today is ruined by the changes the reformation forced on the church.
>>76158310
>degeneracy in X is because of Y influence and X is perfect, while Y is the root problem.
and you havent argued anything in favour of that weird hypothesis, unlike myself here
>>76155235
>yes and no, post-protestantism influences catholicism in a bad way, with that i agree.
>but racemixing is and always was a primarily catholic idea - it was promoted in the mutiracial Portugeese empire, unliek the WASP/protestant ideas of nationalism and racism/racial separation.
>>76143771
the trinity is all god though you stupid fucking ape.
someone call a zookeeper to put this dumb monkey down
>>76143771
>hough most of my people back in Flipland consider the holy spirit as Mary and Joseph. Don't know why.
idolatry influence, sad for the confused believers
>>76158569
all you bring up is either willful lies or complete ignorance. You think england's empire wasn't multiracial? they imported millions of africans to their colonies.
>all these heretics digging their own path to hell
Good luck trying to explain to Jesus why you didn't accept the truth about his mother
>>76142513
The ignorance in this thread.....
Ill leave this here
>talking shit about momma
>>76161084
Isis is your momma?
>>76161084
I have been spending days on the /csg/ - Christian General repeating over and over why Mary was sinless and had no other children besides Jesus. It's kind of frustrating how they never learn.
Btw Wolfy did you hear about the marian apparition in Argentina? It has been approved by the Church.
Read more about it here:
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/joseph-pronechen/its-official-major-apparitions-of-mary-are-approved
>>76161422
You'll get repeats a lot. I'd recommend utilizing 4plebs heavily. If you can remember keywords from other times you posted sections of text on a topic before you can save yourself the trouble and just copy/paste.
Some people are too stubborn to get through but never give up on people despite, man. That said be smart about how you confront them. If you're comprehensive early you can save yourself the trouble and keep redirecting people to your previous posts and let them derive questions from it for you to respond to rather than beating on the same bush for 10 2000-character posts.
Best of luck to you, mate.
>still suspicious of the generals being Christian Generals because of Protestant/Catholic fighting
>Protestant Generals have been stupid as fuck in practice
>Catholic ones may be too limited because of the influx of Orthodoxy from /his/
>Maybe an Apostolic General...?
>Btw Wolfy did you hear about the marian apparition in Argentina? It has been approved by the Church.
I heard! I don't keep up with this stuff unless its one of those confirmed miracles but it is plenty interesting.
>>76140487
God created man and woman.
God created sex so they could multiply and replenish the earth.
Sex is dirty and bad and Mary never did such nasty things. Catholic teaching.
protestant, catholic, all fairytales
>>76162480
Thanks for the meaningful contribution.
>>76162111
All good advices. I prepared something for debunking "petra" "petros" but not for much else, I should do it for other topics too
>Best of luck to you, mate.
Thank you brother, the same to you
>I heard! I don't keep up with this stuff unless its one of those confirmed miracles but it is plenty interesting.
Indeed, very interesting
>>76142112
No. I'm Hebrew there a difference from the actual brother word and the one that just means sometime close to you.
Also in those times, you think Mary could be seen in the streets with men that were not her husband or her sons?.. It had to be her children or she'd be prosecuted for being a whore
>>76163538
Feel free to take from the pastebin as well!
Some of it is old and less formal than the newer stuff it it can be all useful.
Here's the Overbin
http://pastebin.com/NVcvpAEP
Just right this second put up my essay on Christian Optimism from last year's All Saint's Day if you want to check that out and bring it over to Christian General.
I'm heading out. Goodnight to you, man.
http://pastebin.com/tWVjensD
