/pol/ why is Obamacare actually despised so much, surely providing healthcare to millions of people who were previously not covered in the slightest, is worth it?
Isn't it better for the population as a whole to have a healthy workforce?
This is an outsider looking in obviously, so my opinions are changeable.
>>75249929
Bump for interest
>>75249995
I think I may have mistimed this question
>>75249929
>/pol/ why is Obamacare actually despised so much, surely providing healthcare to millions of people who were previously not covered in the slightest, is worth it?
Because those that already took care of their own insurance now pay for all of those that didn't use to.
>Isn't it better for the population as a whole to have a healthy workforce?
Yes. But free healthcare is a fucking meme that is not necessarily better for your population.. Which is why most European countries don't actually provide FREE healthcare, dispite Americans memeing about it. They seem to think all EU states have an NHS-like system like in Britain, but that's false.
Insurance should just be mandatory. If they subsidize the poorest parts of the population for that, fine.. But providing healthcare for free is retarded, because healthcare isn't actually free, it's hideously expensive.
obamacare doesnt provide healthcare, it forces people to buy health insurance that then doesnt pay for shit so if you get sick or are in an accident you then have to pay for that shit too
>>75250159
>it forces people to buy health insurance
This is the good part.
>that then doesnt pay for shit so if you get sick or are in an accident you then have to pay for that shit too
That's a bit of a shame..
But the real downside is the fact that you can get excemptions, benefits and subsidies:
>There are lots of ways to Get A Health Plan that count as minimum essential coverage. Health plans can be purchased through a broker, direct from a provider, obtained through work, obtained through Government healthcare programs like Medicare or Medicaid, or can be bought on your state’s online health insurance marketplace (also known as a health insurance exchange).
>t. Obamacarefacts
If everybody was forced to buy basic insurance that covered basics and essentials, the system would be fine and incite people to take care of their own shit. But in the current implementation, people can still go to the government and demand (and receive!) minimum coverage without actually putting in anything of their own... That's insanity.
>>75249929
Because that's not what Obamacare actually did.
Most of the people on subsidized plans don't actually have the health insurance that they think they do; they may have "coverage" that is either wholly or partially paid for by someone else, but they come with deductibles that are insanely high-- like five grand high.
Then there's the fact that the average price of premiums have skyrocketed for everyone else, which is what happens when you mandate that insurance companies not charge more for preexisting conditions; higher risk means lower returns, which means that the money has to come from somewhere.
Then there's the fact that they mandated that EVERYONE purchase insurance, which is what really sticks in everyone's craw. The federal government requires everybody buy it or pay a fucking fine. What right does the federal government have to force me to buy something from a private company?
It comes down to whether or not you believe that central planners get to decide what's best for you and your family, or if those decisions should be left to you.
>>75249929
>>75250159
The biggest winners under obamacare are insurance companies.
>>75250132
>Because those that already took care of their own insurance now pay for all of those that didn't use to.
Ok, so people are pissed at the moment, but in a few decades, won't it be worth it?
>But free healthcare is a fucking meme
Coming from New Zealand, our healthcare system is incredibly cheap, almost free. I pay $15 to see a doctor, if that, and then less than $5 for most prescriptions, I don't have health insurance.
>>75250159
>forces people to buy health insurance
Every person, including the poor?
>doesnt pay for shit
So just your general checkups? the things most poor people need?
>>75249929
>providing healthcare
I see you have no idea what obamacare is.
>>75250341
>Then there's the fact that the average price of premiums have skyrocketed for everyone else, which is what happens when you mandate that insurance companies not charge more for preexisting conditions; higher risk means lower returns, which means that the money has to come from somewhere.
Not true. We have a similar system, and our premiums vary from about €70 (high deductibles) to €150,- a month (lowest possible deductible, like €500,- a year MAX, lower if you're a poorfag) and all kinds of extra care plans like extensive dental, overseas-coverage and shit like fysiotherapy..
>vid related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHeZJS4K6J0
You'll see our system is actually MUCH cheaper than the pre-Obamacare US system, and likely still a lot cheaper than the Obamacare system.. Where Obamacare goes wrong is they mandate insurance, yet drop that requirement for certain groups of poor people, AND they made employers responsible for covering employees.. You should just make employees pay for their own coverage with a percentage of their (before tax) wage, and you should tell the poorest of poorfags to man the fuck up and spend some of their welfare on insurance.
A mandatory insurance scheme only works if you ACTUALLY MANDATE EVERYONE TO BUY THEIR OWN FUCKING INSURANCE. If you don't, you might as well give up and go full Britain and provide everybody healthcare for free...
>>75249929
>not affordable
>not nessasary
>FDA still feeds us poison (enriched wheat)
>Charles Darwin would frown upon people being kept alive with pills
>>75250389
>Ok, so people are pissed at the moment, but in a few decades, won't it be worth it?
No, because the way the American system is set up employers are still forced to pay for some peoples insurance, and Medicaid and other governmental programs subsidise or even provide coverage to others. This kind of system only works if you REALLY force everybody to pay into the system...
>Coming from New Zealand, our healthcare system is incredibly cheap, almost free. I pay $15 to see a doctor, if that, and then less than $5 for most prescriptions, I don't have health insurance.
It's cheap for you. That doesn't mean the system itself is cheap, anon.
>>forces people to buy health insurance
>Every person, including the poor?
No. The poor get it for free, which is the problem.. Those not poor now pay disproportionately much into the system.
>>75250341
>bitching and moaning about a 5k deductible
Yeah, it sucks. But if you get into a car accident and require multiple surgeries to reassemble your limbs, it will cost literally millions. $5k deductible seems like a good deal to me
Nigger, I used to pay $40 through my employer. My premium is now $90 for the same benefits. Dafuq. I don't care if nig nogs without insurance die. Why do I gotta pay for them.
>>75250587
>A mandatory insurance scheme only works if you ACTUALLY MANDATE EVERYONE TO BUY THEIR OWN FUCKING INSURANCE.
Oh my god, and I thought Hitler was racist. Oh my god.
>>75250748
>it will cost literally millions
That's just because the US healthcare industry is among the most inefficient in the world.. I'm a firm believer in the free market, but I don't believe profits should be the MAIN incentive for healthcare providers. We are seeing a massive increase in inefficiency in Dutch healthcare since privatisation: Quality went up, and prices went down, but the amount of treatments (especially uncessesary ones) wen't up drastically, because profit is now becoming the main incentive in many hospitals.. Rather than quality of life, standards of care and what is best for individual patients.
>>75250763
>I don't care if nig nogs without insurance die
We'd save more money in the long run if we just subsidized their ammo.
>>75249929
To put it simply:
Shit tier plans, extremely expensive
I had to go on it for a brief period because my existing insurance "was not good enough". The cheapest plan that came close to what I had before cost 3.5x as much a month, and did not work outside of my state
>>75250810
>Oh my god, and I thought Hitler was racist. Oh my god.
>tfw this is probably literally why the US system makes so many exceptions
>M-muh minorities
>>75250929
You were probably paying $50 a month that wouldn't have covered anything to start with.
A huge part of Obamacare was removing the bottom bracket of health plans that were extremely cheap and existed solely to fuck you over when you needed it most.
>work at mcdoggles
>make barely over 30k a year as a pseudo manager
>pay for my own insurance
>obreeezycare drops
>my plan goes up 100 dollars a month and I have less coverage because my company has to pay for everyone now
>>75250763
Blacks, statistically don't live that long.
They should have free healthcare, it should be included with the trip to America.
>>75250689
>employers are still forced to pay for some peoples insurance
I can understand the issues here,
>Medicaid and other governmental programs subsidise or even provide coverage to others
But if people are on absolute poorfag wages or less, I don't understand why this is such a bad thing.
>That doesn't mean the system itself is cheap, anon.
I pay taxes, I keep myself healthy, I very rarely see a doctor, and if I do it's a specialist for my heart, which is not government subsidised, and costed me over $1000NZ to see him for 2 hours. I receive less from the system than I put in, I believe, but I still believe it to be a good system.
>poor get it for free
>those not poor now pay disproportionately much into the system
But again, to cover those that need it, I see this as a positive.
I hope you don't think I'm being bullish about this.
>>75251048
Actually it covered MORE than the obamacare plan. But since I was making about 120k a year they gouged me on insurance. Somebody has to pay for all the freeloaders
>>75250748
Yeah it's so great to have to pay out the ass for a policy you'd have to get in a fucking car crash to see any use from
>>75249929
Because everyone that works now pays at least twice what they previously paid for health insurance, only to find that it covers very little and copays are high. The only people that like it don't work or have a very minimal type job. Those people already got their health care for free, so it didn't solve any problems. It only created some very rich middle men.
>>75250341
>then there's the fact that they mandated that EVERYONE purchase insurance,
This is what got me to hate it. I honestly didn't pay attention to any of the politics or government plans until I was told I was going to be fined for not having health insurance.
After that, I started paying attention to it because fuck this.
>>75250352
Nope they've been dropping from that horrible website like flies they simply cannot afford the shit that they're forced to cover.
>>75250352
Not really some companies had to pull out of the medical side of the insurance business because they cannot take on more risk
>>75251327
Okay this makes the most sense to me, if its true, as a firm argument against it.
>already got their health care for free
Really? Free health care for the poor in US? That's not what I understood it to be
>>75250587
>Not true.
It's actually 100% accurate. I don't give a shit how your system works. Ours does not work.
>>75250389
Yikes. Type 1 diabetic here. Without insurance I'd be paying $7000 a year for insulin and test strips. $400 a year for doctors visits. And $2000 a year for pump supplies. Obamacare wanted me to pay a $4000 deductible before they would even insure me for their lowest insurance. I was told even with that insurance might not even cover any supplies or visits. Fortunately I qualified for insurance from the state. I'm limited to about 12k a year income. I literally cannot afford to get a higher paying job. I cannot live without insurance. I am forced to barely afford food, my rent, and utilities. Obamacare has done nothing but harm to everyone.
>>75251528
Yes it is called Medicaid
>>75251223
>But if people are on absolute poorfag wages or less, I don't understand why this is such a bad thing.
Because it doesn't provide incentive for peope to be responsible for their own shit. Subsidies for poorfags are fine, then being entitled to full free coverage is retarded.
>I receive less from the system than I put in, I believe, but I still believe it to be a good system.
I'm not too familiar with your system, but it likely isn't cheap by any standard, regardless of what you put in or get out of it. It's never cheap.
>But again, to cover those that need it, I see this as a positive.
It's not a positive if people that up until now always had good coverage plans they payed for themselves are now being fucked by either disproportionatly high premiums, or less coverage than they used to get.. See: >>75251228
>I hope you don't think I'm being bullish about this.
You're just operating under the assumption that healthcare should be free or nearly free, and I don't agree with that assumption.
>>75251368
>I was going to be fined for not having health insurance
That's a good thing to be honest. People who don't have insurance tend to hemmorage public money whenever they end up needing care, and they tend to take those debts with them to the grave.
>>75251584
Because your system is shit. That's the reason for it being so expensive, not the government forcing insurers to sign on people with pre-existing conditions.
Healthcare in the US is way more fucked than most other countries.
To start with, you have a large chunk of the population that doesn't work, and they will never pay into anything. At the same time they demand, and usually receive, some of the best healthcare in the world. Surgeries, hospital admissions, expensive brand medications, etc. We provide lots of medical technologies to them and they have no intention of ever giving anything back to society.
I'm not totally opposed to some form of preventive health care system, but we don't have that. We go all out. Healthcare here is crazy expensive. And everyone demands everything. Lived a life of illegal drugs, gay sex, and partying? Here's hundreds of thousands in medication, surgeries, and a new liver!
>>75249929
Obamacare is a tax.
The costs went up to cover pre existing conditions, fat people, and nogs
>>75251528
Yes. If you show up to a hospital or clinic with a medical need, they will treat you. They will lose their professional license if they refuse. The poor people just never pay the bill. The next time they need to see a doctor, off to the hospital they go. Same place as before. Never paid the bill. They are still treated.
Meanwhile, I pay $8,664 per year in premiums. I have a deductible of $4,500, and it still only pays about half of my doctor visits. So I can pay up to $13,164 of medical costs in a year and never receive any help from my health insurance, which I am fined if I don't buy it.
>>75250936
How dare you expect them to be responsible. Have you seen how black they are?
>>75251784
>Because it doesn't provide incentive for peope to be responsible for their own shit.
touche
>not too familiar with your system
roughly $3200/capita on healthcare, if you're interested.
>You're just operating under the assumption that healthcare should be free or nearly free, and I don't agree with that assumption.
Ideally I think it should be, at least for those severely disadvantaged. Clearly, it seems, ObamaCare doesn't work. Would you say a new system should be put in place, or just scrap it entirely, and make everyone pay for their own? Do you agree with a system like medicaid?
>>75252166
So before obamacare, did they receive the same treatment? And before obamacare, what did you spend/receive?
>>75252166
>Meanwhile I pay €70,- in premiums monthy, receive €80,- in healthcare subsidy from the government and have a deductible of €750,- a year max, which I never meet because I'm healthy
I pay my dentist out of pocket though, because most dental plans end up costing more than just paying your dentist as long as you don't need complete replacement teeth and shit.
>>75249995
>>75250104
>>75250132
It's a shit way to address the underlying issue of healthcare. My step dad was on it for a while because his job didn't offer health insurance. He got it in the beginning and it was decent. Then as time went on the premiums would rise and things became more expensive. Aside from his issues many insurance providers are now pulling out for the market place thus adding to the averse selection.
>>75252323
>roughly $3200/capita on healthcare, if you're interested.
That's more than NL if it's USD, but slightly less if you mean NZD.
>Ideally I think it should be, at least for those severely disadvantaged.
Do the severely disadvantaged get free rent? Free food? Free transport? If no, why would they suddenly be expected to get free healthcare?
>Would you say a new system should be put in place, or just scrap it entirely, and make everyone pay for their own? Do you agree with a system like medicaid?
Mandatory insurance for all, and fines for those who don't insure. No more full-coverage for those unwilling to pay for their own shit.. People on welfare or unemployment are expected to still pay rent, so why would healthcare be any different?
> Do you agree with a system like medicaid?
Not really, because in the end solidarity doesn't work if not everbody is actually expected to put in their share.
US Healthcare System seems to be a serious ripp-off.
When our German citizens with insurance for abroad are treated in US hospitals the hospitals usually send some ridiculously high bill.
Most of the time the insurance company basically ignores the bill and just pays what the treatment would have cost in Germany or they negotiate like 50% down.
>>75252323
I paid $296.92 annually for premiums, which I believe was a third of the cost with my employer paying the other two thirds. I had a $1,500 deductible. It covered about 65% of my costs. Some doctor visits were 90% covered though and some prescriptions were 75% covered. Not consistently though, it was always a mystery what would be covered at what rate.
So the most I would pay a year and never see any return on my plan would be $1,797, which was $11,848 less than my $13,164 figure.
I don't know what it would be like for you, but having $11,848 taken out of my paycheck per year is a huge strain. That's a brand new small car every year. Or a very nice home every 15 years.
>>75252661
>Most of the time the insurance company basically ignores the bill and just pays what the treatment would have cost in Germany or they negotiate like 50% down.
That's the main reason you need insurance in the US: Because your insurance company is in a position to bargain with the hospital, while private patients are not. If you get slapped with $100.000,- in medical bills, you're actually expected to pay those in full... But if you're insured, your insurance company it's more like this:
>That'll be $100.000,- please
>No, fuck that, I offer you $30.000,-
>No, no mr. Insurer, I'm afraid it's 100k..
>Ok.. I'll pay the $100.000,- this one time, and after that I will no longer provide coverage to my customers whenever they're treated at one of your institutions...
>'$25.000,-' it is mr. Insurer, thank your for your patronage, anything else we can do for you?
The bottom line is that we're going to have to eventually realize having free access to modern healthcare isn't a human right.
Healthcare has become complicated and expensive. At some point you have to draw the line at what you can and can't provide to everyone. Everything beyond the line is left to the free market. Does that mean rich people will sometimes get better health care? Yes. Get over it.
>>75252661
Insurance companies here in the US do the same. If you don't have insurance and pay the bill yourself, you generally pay twice what an insurance company would pay.
Insurance companies got smart and now you can get coverage for that service. You pay $50 a year and the insurance company pays for you as a broker. It cuts your bills in half.
Yes, the US healthcare system is a serious rip off. And we are fined if we don't play the game.
>>75252952
The Neanderthal is right.
>>75252505
>if you mean NZD.
yes
>Do the severely disadvantaged get free rent? Free food? Free transport? If no, why would they suddenly be expected to get free healthcare?
I believe if they need it, they should. In NZ, services similar to what you listed are offered to those /severely/ disadvantaged. Although, if I were in western Europe right now, I think I'd want to cut an awful lot of welfare off from people. I don't consider self-imposed unemployment 'severely disadvantaged'.
I am not defending ObamaCare.
>>75252855
That's absolutely insane. I would have thought the system would have been put in place to help those such as yourself, modest incomes, but working. That's the first demographic that should be assisted.
>>75250352
But they won't be under Trump right dumb fucking goyim?
>>75250132
>Insurance should just be mandatory.
This is literally what obamacare is though.
>>75249929
>/pol/ why is Obamacare actually despised so much
Like the keystone pipeline it's a talking point now, and being against it scores you conservative points.
Obamacare is okay. It helps, but doesn't fix the problem, which is that health care is for-profit and un-regulated in the US, and because health care is an industry in which consumers are not able to make rational decisions(say, to go somewhere else/out of state because they're injured/need immediate care), there's no way for the market to balance out.
>>75249929
Politics.
It's far from perfect, but it was neutered to an extent because of conservacuck extremism, and likewise cockblocked wherever possible at the state level. It's like shooting yourself in the foot and saying "WHO SHOT ME?!"
At least I live in massachusetts where we've had the equivalent for a quite a while longer than the whole country has. I'm thankful everyday I don't have to live in the insufferable hell of a bible belt red state.
>>75250334
>If everybody was forced to buy basic insurance that covered basics and essentials, the system would be fine and incite people to take care of their own shit. But in the current implementation, people can still go to the government and demand (and receive!) minimum coverage without actually putting in anything of their own... That's insanity.
you can blame that on insurance-backed lobbying on the republican side, honestly.They dragged out exceptions and actually having to provide care, so that the cheapest options are literally useless, so a company doesn't actually have to pay for care when the time comes to get treatment.
Obama has been very gung ho on preventative treatment, which is good. But the problem is the US is a population that is living increasingly longer and portions of it require constant care, which is where the cost comes in.
>>75253573
So essentially, there is almost no free market operating, as neither supply nor demand allow for it.
>>75251593
Ever think of, I don't know, finding a job with benefits?
>>75249929
The "Affordable Health Care Act" has made health care even more expensive. Those who have it have a difficult time finding doctors who accept it because it pays so little that doctors can't even cover their operating expenses.
>>75250341
>Then there's the fact that the average price of premiums have skyrocketed for everyone else
This is not actually Obamacares fault.
premiums 'skyrocketed' because hte original price-controls were lobbied out of the original writing in committee, usually backed by industry-paid conservatives, so that the controls didn't hit the market until a year after obamacare started to 'protect the industry', which meant everyone's premiums went up, then 'lowered' to the pre-obamacare price
>>75250341
>What right does the federal government have to force me to buy something from a private company?
It's like auto insurance. Because if you don't have health insurance, the government has to pay for you when you go to a hospital in an emergency. So it's essentially charging you a premium for it having to cover medical costs when you use services for free.
>>75249929
Because it hasn't yet been renamed Trumpcare.
>>75254009
Lobbyists are why we cant have nice things in America
>>75253922
This is not true. It's actually slowed rate of cost inflation. It just doesn't do enough to actually reverse the trend because insurance is still privatized.
>>75253922
>Those who have it have a difficult time finding doctors who accept it because it pays so little that doctors can't even cover their operating expenses
Except it doesn't. I work for a doctor, he has more patients now that he did before, and gets paid more. The only ones losing out are larger hospitals because for-profit hospitals now can't charge 100,000$ for a hospital gown as easily as they did before.
>>75254117
Stop lying, Obama
>>75254116
AIPAC, Defense contractors, Unions, the insurance lobby, telecom industries. They're all bad.
It's a shame too, because the problem is hard to fix. How do you stop someone from taking non-monetary kick-backs? How do you regulate someone making a back-room deal that subverts the law for say, campaign votes?
There's a reason congress needs term limits.
People who think our medical system was just fine before ACA and didn't need to change at all are either too young to have to deal with it or too stupid to care
>>75254203
>wahhhh this doesnt fit my underage echo chamber narrative
>>75254208
>term limits
nailed it
lifers need to gtfo and citizens united needs to get btfo
>>75254239
too young for sure. even with private insurance, before the ACA my yearly costs (e.g. straight from my paycheck) regularly increased 10-15%, sometimes as high as 20%. The year the ACA passed this increase dropped to 3-5% per year, which has been huge. This was definitely not a coincidence.
>>75254208
>>75254298
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MHYOB5uptc
>This is a glimpse into the world of the American Legislative Exchange Council, a corporate-funded charity that pays for lawmaker trips to resorts where they leave with ready-to-pass bills. Neither ALEC nor the Georgia legislature would show us where the money comes from, or who it goes to.
this is eye opening and i encourage everyone to watch
>>75253757
Pretty much. It's a service in which government regulation is actually essential, because individual consumers will never be able to make correct decisions or 'shop around' the way you would with any other market. Especially in terms of emergency care, which is not what Obamacare addresses except to fine you yearly if you don't have coverage, because if you don't have it, the government has to subsidize it. Essentially the ACA just puts the onus of care costs on individuals and businesses rather than itself, because that shit eats up money, and it costs more than current taxes bring in. The alternative would be to raise taxes like other countries do, which will currently never happen.
And insurance companies know that shit, and so do for-profit hospitals.
>>75253584
>make shitty system
>hurrr durr the conservative are why this didn't work
no excuse for fucking it up 2bh
>>75250132
if the premiums stayed the same or were lowered (which isn't the case of alot of people), I don't get why you would complain about subsidizing others health costs.
Your premiums currently are probably subsidizing some poor fuck who had an accident. In other words there's a good chance you are not the the riskiest player in the insurance pool.
>>75254429
>consumers will never be able to make correct decisions or 'shop around'
This is what I agree with the most.
>Essentially the ACA just puts the onus of care costs on individuals and businesses rather than itself, because that shit eats up money, and it costs more than current taxes bring in. The alternative would be to raise taxes like other countries do, which will currently never happen.
But this is just ridiculous, because the health insurance is like a massive tax anyway?
>>75254535
You complain about rising costs while your governor purposely blocks medicare expansion to help cover said costs in a partisan attempt to make the ACA "fail".
Like I said though originally, i could care less, it just makes the shithole bible belt fall further into 3rd world status. I can laugh at you smugly from yankee territory.
>>75254203
My current job is to handle medical billing to insurances for a doctor. Insurance companies hate Obamacare because it means they have to pay for more.
I have issues with Obamacare, but it stopping people from seeing a doctor is a bullshit argument that's never held up, because now that people are paying for care they're going more often, and insurance companies actually have to pay for shit now.
What it is cutting in on is a lower need to get multiple tests done for no reason(which hurts specialized equipment hospitals that want you to ahve to go for expensive, excessive tests even when a doctor knows what's wrong) and the amount insurance companies can charge or write off for medical expenses.
The thing that fucks people over in obamacare is that if you make enough to not get subsidized, but not enough to actually afford real healthcare, you're fucked and charged for not having either. It shits on anyone making between like 30k-50k/year depending on location.
>>75254535
hey at least it got the ball rolling for reform... now everyone is forced to look for a solution regardless of lib or conservative.
Conservatives did strip the bill at every possible moment in congress and you can't even argue that
Now i'm sure you've got a brilliant free market system that would solve the issue right? I'm all ears, i just want solutions i could care less about the R or the D
I'm a healthy, young male (26) that has always done my best to take care of myself. I have so far never needed health insurance and now that Obamacare is around it's either I get it and have to pay for it-- the company I work for actually shows how much per pay check would be taken out under the ACA; or I have to pay a fine at tax season for not having health insurance. On top of that, every paycheck I get a percentage taken out for Medical. So basically I'm having to pay twice for health coverage I don't have or use without my consent. This is going mostly to pay for those who are unhealthy and are digging their own graves with poor choices (obesity, smoking, drinking, recklessness, etc.). Obama promised there would be free healthcare for all Americans. The reality is it's neither free nor good coverage and no matter what you are having to pay for it.
>>75254715
>my governor
not even a conservative stop blaming others and take responsibility
there is no excuse for failure at this level and the "conservative" pressure should have been accounted for
>>75254727
So the system could work a lot better, if it only shit on people in a high income bracket than, say, 40k? (for argument's sake)
>health insurance is inherently good
>the word insurance has lost all meaning
>the insurance industry had lost all meaning and makes no sense
>could be the pin that pops the debt bubble
No idea OP, I really don't know why you suck so many dicks
>>75254859
No one is arguing the ACA is perfect, but we will never know whether its original intent would have functioned better.
Are you honestly going to sit there and tell me the bill wasn't stripped to its bones on its way through congress? Were you seriously that underage 6ish years ago?
>>75254859
I'm not sure you understand how representative democracy works
>>75254713
>because the health insurance is like a massive tax anyway?
Before this, it wasn't a tax. You paid a private company, and when you didn't, the government paid for you when you finally got so sick you landed in a hospital. The government never saw any money, insurance companies did.
Now the government mandates you either pay for insurance, or pay a tax every year because not having insurance means you'll most likely end up costing public funds in the future.
It's shitty, but it makes sense.A better system would be to offer a tax-based base-line coverage, and then let people buy pricier, better care options as freely as they want, and if they show proof, not pay the tax.
>>75254823
no I don't pretend to know things I have no experience with
but what I do know is that if any private health insurance ceo fucked up as bad as obama's guy he would have been canned
When I have to pay for than double in medical related costs, I think it's justified for me to despise niggercare.
>>75249929
Because the right wing has no empathy or altruism and they don't people other people deserve help.
They just look for other people to scapegoat the world's problems on.
>>75254986
>>75255003
both of you are salty as shit because you don't want to admit democratic responsibility for this fuck up
I voted for obama just like you fags but I don't pretend like everything he did was great
Maybe the bill got stripped because it was full of shitty ideas
>>75255092
*more than double
>>75249929
>/pol/ why is Obamacare actually despised so much, surely providing healthcare to millions of people who were previously not covered in the slightest, is worth it?
If you're going to believe propaganda, then this is a useless discussion to have.
Under Obamacare, not only am I unable to get healthcare, but I'll be fined and thrown in jail if they ever find out.
>>75255147
Just stop posting and come back when your older kiddo
It gets tiring listen to children who have never actually paid a dime in their own health insurance talk about "how awful obamacare is"
>>75255092
how much a week do you pay into medicare?
i make ~50k and pay 13 dollars
>>75254857
>Obama promised there would be free healthcare for all Americans
He didn't promise that. It's one of the things everyone said he wanted, but what he wanted was what we got, albeit watered down.
>>75254857
>I have so far never needed health insurance and now that Obamacare is around it's either I get it and have to pay for it
Because, statistically, at some point you will either get injured or sick, and it will cost the government money because you don't have insurance. You might get hit by a car or shot or get cancer or any number of things.
It's not great, don't get me wrong.
>>75254857
>he reality is it's neither free nor good coverage and no matter what you are having to pay for it.
This is the real problem. The reason the care is shitty its because the insurance industry lobbied successfully to not have to provide decent coverage at lower price levels. There's no base line. THere's some standardized regulations put in, but not enough.
>>75255243
>I'm a massive fag who got btfo and I'm now resorting to insults and projection
Nice to know, leaving the thread now
>>75251528
>Really? Free health care for the poor in US? That's not what I understood it to be
Yes, before Obamacare the US had free healthcare for those who couldn't pay. That's because the democrats wanted their kickbacks from the insurance companies that were about to start extracting $600 per person per month, so they and their shills in the press lied through their teeth and slandered the US both here and abroad. The law providing free health care to the uninsured was signed by Reagan, you see, so it was inherently evil. On the occasions tthey were called on their lies the press and other leftists would claim that it didn't count, or it was too expensive and their plan woud reduce the costs of treating the indigent, or some such bullshit. But the law was that doctors and hospitals could not refuse to treat you because you could not afford to pay, for indigent cases they would get reimbursed out of medicaid or medicare depending on the circumstances.
I knew a guy who had a female relative that was completely indigent, and she went to the doctor (for free) for back pain, was unfortunately diagnosed with cancer, and received chemotherapy (for free), which unfortunately didn't work, but then received palliative care (for free) until she died. Years before Obamacare.
>>75254117
>>75254727
http://www.google.com/search?q=why+do+so+few+doctors+accept+obamacare&oq=why+do+so+few+doctors+accept+obamacare
>>75255405
Yes there were a fair number of uninsured. Before Obamacare it wasn't a requirement to be insured in order to receive treatment. You could pay by yourself if you want. Lots of young people did, I ran without insurance for many years, when I got sick I'd pay with a check or maybe credit card, like I would if my car broke or any other unexpected cost. Happened maybe twice over the decade I went uninsured. Young people so rarely need expensive medical treatment that it really isn't worth it. But the insurance companies were absolutely salivating at the thought of getting those expensive insurance premiums from all those healthy people who didn't need it.
Obamacare "solved" that problem by requiring insurance as a condition for health care. If you are indigent and go into the emergency room for a heart attack, if you don't have insurance they will sign you up for obamacare, and you will oay a huge penalty plus owe premiums and $5000-$10000 deductibles for your trouble, whereas before it would have been free.
But hey, the insurance companies got their share, and the democrats got their share, and they nationalized a large chunk of the US service economy to go along with their Government Motors triumph. So they got theirs, and fuck the rest of us.
>>75254986
>we will never know
You got a mouse in your pocket?
>governors trying to make it fail
It's failing in states that take full advantage
And your assumption that medicare is anything but a cancer in its current state is just fucking fantastic
And then the irony of lecturing that guy for not knowing how government works when you think the federal government withholding shit to force states to accept it's programs is ok.
>>75255003
>something everyone knows about representative democracy
>let's put a shitty "barebones" bill through that nobody had read anyway
The real deal is that they don't care if it fails, they just no it will never be fully repealed, it'll be replaced and continue on as a beurocratic leech until thr host dies
>>75250389
We also have month long waiting queues for anything to do with radiilogy(and that's when it's marked as urgent, too). Also, since only some medications are funded, doctors can and will give you inferior medication for what you should get due to cost.
>tfw almost died waiting for an ultrasound
>>75254898
>So the system could work a lot better, if it only shit on people in a high income bracket than, say, 40k? (for argument's sake)
No.The system would work a lot better, if it had a base-line of coverage or standardized insurance for anyone that wanted to pay for it, and then you could pay in a national-level marketplace for better care if you could afford/want it.
Which the ACA sorta tried to do in the exchanges, but insurance companies regularly hold large symposiums, much like the telecom industries, where they plot out prices between each other and territories, so they don't price each other out. It's scummy and shit-tier because no one wants to lose the sweet campaign contributions and such for letting them do it.
>>75255405
so what is the federal poverty line anyway? 14k a year?
you can make 2x that and be poor as shit
>>75249929
>why is Obamacare actually despised so much
It isn't. If they tried repealing it in the shitholes where the opposition to the Act was loudest there would be an insurrection.
>>75249929
he isnt. those who hate the guy are generally pretty dumb and uninformed to begin with, and thats after considering the fact that eve if he did MAGA, they still wouldnt support hi because he was the democratic nominee.
its not even worth talking about until another 8 years goes by.
>>75255479
give me solutions senpai
i'm not a dem or a republican i just want solutions for problems
we can all agree that costs associated with medical care are a problem right?
>>75249929
From the get-go the idea was stupid as fuck, people that pay for this with their taxes don't get to reap the rewards but even the poor faggots that Obamacare was meant for still ended up having to pay huge bills so it's like nothing's changed except tax payers money going to more waste.
>>75255519
>We also have month long waiting queues for anything to do with radiilogy
That's more a problem of your infrastructure, and a lack of trained personnel, than lowered cost.
A big problem the US faced before the ACA is that instead of long lines, you just wouldn't go to the doctor because you couldn't afford it.A large percentage of the US population isn't dirt-poor, they're working-poor. They make enough to not get government subsidies, but not enough to cover medical bills, so they jsut suffer through them until they break and have to go to emergency room.
Then they declare medical bankruptcy and the government has to cover a large chunk of the costs. Now it's harder to do that. Which shits on people a bit more, which is why the ACA isn't the best(it had a lot of its regulatory teeth pulled in committee, which would have helped with this), because it doesn't have any standardized care or coverage at a lower fee, it just lowers cost.
>>75255786
Yea, we can agree costs are a problem
How about stopping the cause rather than trying more bullshit to stop it
The costs arw because government got involved in Healthcare to begin with
The biggest growing problem is drug coverage which will only get lore hilariously expensive
We can start by letting the states compete and trying to privatize from there
>>75256050
im sorry but this is all i can hear when i read you posts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9v8oDqN76Mc
>>75249929
Giving health care to 11 million people while fucking over the 25 million people with private insurance isnt sound public policy.
Its 315 a month for me while im capped at 29 hours a week, i could lease a car with what i pay for healthcare
>>75256168
Great retort lad
>>75254857
The medical coverage cost that comes out goes to your employer for covering work related injuries, idk where you work but it's usually small unless you work in a very dangerous job. There's some fine print in your employment contract, you signed it when you were hired.
>>75256242
>$315 per month for healthcare
What a farce.
>>75255243
How about someone who has paid many dimes talking about how aweful it is?
You guys are all missing the point of why obamacare is bad.
END OF LIFE CARE
>it's one of the most expensive kinds of medicine
>in about 20 years we will have 200million dying baby boomers
>not all baby boomers are rich
>what about old dying niggers?
>why do I have to pay for kidney transplants for old dying people I never met?
>>75255243
Nothing but ad homs from the faggot crew
Your feels aren't worth anything here Mr. Grown up man
>>75255400
"Maybe there were trash parts of the bill" isn't blowing anyone out. You're just too much of a bitch to admit that you weren't old enough to follow things when the bill was being passed.
>>75256426
6 years ago the same policy was 98 a month, and then i got thrown off of it and forced to resign a new contract.
If i worked full time, 30+ hours a week, i wouldn't have to worry about it, hence why im capped at 29
>>75249929
It's not as if there are suddenly more doctors or doctors are suddenly more productive. i.e. the supply of Healthcare has not increased. What the law did was redistribute the existing supply from people who deserve it to people who don't. For civilized people this is bad news, it's great for our pavement apes on the other hand.
>>75256657
wtf are we supposed to follow when none of our elected leaders read it?
>>75256657
>when the bill was being passed
Lol you're such a blatant faggot. Not even the fucking congressmen knew what was in it
What were you following? The shit your favorite party was feeding you? Believing everything they told you about it
I was old enough and the only surprise from obamacare was the supreme court upholding it. Virtually everyone thought it would be struck down. Everything else was predictable, which only makes it more sad that cucks like you still make the communism argument
>b-but if it was implemented perfectly it would work
>>75250391
>Thinks Medicaid is healthcare
>>75250665
Hows that penicillin Darwin?
>>75249929
>isnt it better for more people to have insurance
the people who didnt couldve got the plans for the same prices but didnt want to, now its mandatory
it not only fucks regular insurance holders but it fucks doctors, private practices, and the newly formed insurance companies are faulting already because they cant keep up with the claims new clients are generating
its bad for everyone and frankly but everyone wants to relate to sweden like their some kind of utopia when in reality their country is in the shitter and people are too ashamed to admit they're unhappy
>>75257238
>no one was able to get generic penicillin before obamacare
shilling this hard for the cause....flue shots must be a new found practice within the last 8 years, too
>>75251593
Oh, looks like you have close to danish conditions in murrica now.
Who would have thought you would want to ape our shitty system.
>>75256968
>>b-but if it was implemented perfectly it would work
isn't this the same argument free market guys use all time?
>>75249929
As someone who lives on an Island where 40% of the people is on some form of socialized medicine let me tell you that it fucking sucks.
Long waiting times at hospitals mean higher odds of complications and even death. Needing to wait months for an specialist appointment is another thing that raises complications. Socialized medicine never works and the best medicine is always private. There needs to be a Free Market solution for healthcare.
The real fucking over is of course young people who don't need the care subsidizing fat greasy old fucks who voted to force this upon us so they can keep paying for their desperate attempt at 2 more years before syphilis and aids finally kills them off.
God only knows this problem will only get worse if life expectancy shoots up like the futurejew tells me it will.
>>75257749
No, the argument for that is that the closer you get and more freedom you give, the better it gets
As opposed to utopia achieved by flawless beuracracy
>>75257791
You live in a third world country
everything sucks
>>75257827
>healthcare problem gets worse as people get more healthy
what are you saying?
>>75257910
either way, people who think that purity of ideology will work, or even can be achieved, are head in the clouds retarded
pragmatism ftw
>>75258032
As medical technologies grow more advanced and let old people live longer through utilizing them, old people will want to utilize them.
You think caring for the elderly cost this much before drugs?
Wait till "insurance" starts paying for daily nanomacine injections or some crazy shit
>>75249929
from what i heard, obamacare is a failed idee, that should have never left the drawing board because it fails to fix the real underlying problem.
Obama care forces you to pay for an health insurance that covers almost nothing and if it covers what you have, you need to be lucky that the ambulance brought you to a the good hospital, because you can get transported to a hospital where your insurance company basically says fuck them and fuck you. Insurance doesn't work in other states, unless you get a separate plan for that and like before, only in certain hospitals then.
Obamacare is bad because the idea behind it was bad. Obama should have tried fixing the healthcare system. by lowering the prices of doctors and hospitals by lowering the amount that a hospital or doctor can get sued for. because most that you are paying towards a doctor goes towards his insurance for if he gets sued.
>>75258164
Great argument
Never heard that grandiose virtue signaling before from anyone
>>75258240
I think medical technology is the golden goose
medical technology gets better therefor people are more healthy therefor we spend less
take your aids thing for example https://www.rt.com/usa/343841-hiv-cure-animals-dna/
>>75258275
Tort reform is a nightmare not because of the amount but because there is relatively no risk in bringing suit, so if you even get sued, your rate is going to to up
It's like that for lawyers too and it's bullshit
>>75258312
what you want an argument on why pure free markets wont work? Really? That hasn't been hashed out over and over and over and over
you care more about being "right" than you do about a practical solution for a problem
nothing but a fly in the ointment
>>75258375
Yes but you have to realize people will start on a prescription and then just live longer while they're on it forever
Unless you can cure these things, and whatever new necrosis diseases old people of the future will undoubtedly get, I only see the costs going up.
And this is assuming we don't start paying for non essential care, like the fucking UK does
>>75258527
That's not what I said you dimwitted bastard. I said you don't need the perfect utopian system to reap the benefitsI said the closer you get the better.
>hashed out over and over
>this conceited assumption that the discussion is over and everyone knows free market ideals don't work
Welcome to whatever shit tier university you're going to freshcuck.
>you care more about being right
You're obsessed with being the embodiment of the middleman fallacy
>>75258840
>tips fedora
bet you've got a sick sword collection too senpai
inb4 youtube philosophy pre law high school drop out retort
>>75259005
Retort to what? You haven't said anything to retort to, it's just garbage
>>75249929
Because Obama's black and muh free market.
It's actually not that bad. It reformed healthcare laws. Before Obamacare, insurance companies could and would look for any loophole to get out of covering people. The government subsidizes health insurance for those who can't afford it or get it through their work. Only children, old people, pregnant women and the extremely poor get free health care here.
LOVE MY Medicare and Medicaid, even though I actually hate living.
>>75249929
Let me tell you a story about my healthcare premiums.
I'm not a mooch, I pay for my own healthcare.
I'm also 24 years old.
I went from paying 34.00 a month for good insurance to 239.00 a month for the same thing.
Healthcare cost are retarded high and it's because illegals and poorfags can't understand that the emergency room is not for stubbed toes.
>>75259513
>not that bad
tell that to my sister with diabetes and her 5,000 dollar requirement before they cover shit, or how about the fact shes not allowed to get MRIs or CAT* scans unless its at a specified location or has to wait weeks now in order to get in with certain specialists
its shit and ruined our previous healthcare coverage when everything got revamped...teh ACA is literally killing the healthcare industry in the states and with the shortage of doctors and lackluster response from the medical education in America soliciting the viability to prospective candidates its just gonna get worse
3 of my friends going for general practitioner dropped that shit after the ACA and went for specialties outside of the scope of insurance companies that can still leave room for private practice growth, shit like dentistry and podiatry or optometry
>>75250352
This is false. The biggest winners of obamacare were electronic medical record and healthcare IT companies. The best part of it all: the taxpayers pay for private health systems to purchase these IT solutions from private companies. Thanks, Obama.
Healthcare / Healthcare IT and Regulations Fag here. AMA
Because nowhere in the Constitution of the United States does it State to avoid taxation citizens must purchase a service from a private business. Plain and simple.
>Going from part time to full time raised my rates from $19 to $256
>Literally work one more day
>It's the same coverage
>>75249929
Fuck off Zealand.
My healthcare insurance just doubled and I'm not forced onto a 6,000 dollar deductible.
There's nothing affordable in the nigprez health insurance catastrophe.
>>75253747
>obamacare passed without a single republican vote
>blames flaws on republicans
Kek
Personal example:
2011
>cheapest personal insurance for a single healthy adult male non-smoker aged 27
>$1,000 deductible, $20 copay for doctor's visit, no coinsurance
>monthly premium is $79
2016
>cheapest personal insurance for a single healthy adult male non-smoker aged 27
>$6,500 deductible, no cost sharing until after deductible (basically, no insurance until I've spent $6,500 out of pocket)
>monthly premium is $145
The 2016 personal insurance plan that would match 2011 personal insurance plan coverage is $285/month.
>>75263234
>i wasnt old enough at the time to witness the gutting of the ACA
>i'm too much of a narrow sighted dumbass to understand that republicuck governors continue to cockblock key parts of the bill at the state level
underage please leave
>>75249929
It's not the underhanded attempt at universal (for welfare queens) healthcare that I have a problem. It's that they fucking fine people for not having insurance. If someone is too poor to have have a policy and too prideful to take a government handout then they get stiffed for it.
https://www.healthcare.gov/fees/fee-for-not-being-covered/
I now pay more and get less coverage than I did under my former employer plan. And now I get fined if I don't pay.
Obamacare a shit.
>>75263371
>Affordable Healthcare
I can't wait until Trump flushes that stinky turd down the shitter.
Do you support me being shot?
>>75260940
John Roberts changed the CONstitution.
>>75263371
>single male
Found your problem right there.
>>75249929
My employer could no longer afford coverage and my plan is $279 per month with a $6000 deductable and 20% copay.
>>75264022
You should see the premiums for a family.
1,000 dollars a month.
>>75249929
Affordable healthcare. Is that why my health insurance went up a $100 after it was enacted
>>75264219
It's affordable for the insurance companies who making a windfall from it.
Obama is nothing but a slick insurance salesman.
And we got sold.
Obamacare is literally only for black people. Poor white people get MEDICAID where if anything is actually wrong with you you're better off going to a church
Started job in 2014
>enrolled through company in Carefirst BlueChoice Open Access HMO Option J
>coinsurance 20%, $30 copay, $2,500 out of pocket, $200 prescription drug deductible
>premium is $593/month (I pay $33 and company pays $560)
Get married in 2015, want to add wife to my company plan (she's a legal European immigrant and therefore is not legally allowed to work yet)
>premium jumps to $1,363/month, company will only cover 25% of the difference
>monthly paycheck deduction goes from $33/month for personal coverage to $558/month for myself & wife
>mfw that's a fucking mortgage payment for barely-adequate health insurance coverage for my family
So my wife is currently uninsured, and I'm probably going to be hit with the $800 penalty, but since the alternative is shelling out $1,500 for a catastrophic plan with a $7,000 deductible with no exceptions, what rational choice do I have?
>>75264581
Obamacare is primarily for MEXICANS, not blacks. That's why Shillary is advocating extending Obamacare coverage to illegal aliens (check her website).
CONGRATS LATIN AMERICA, WE'RE COVERING YOUR HEALTH CARE NOW!
Instead of leaving it alone, fixing underlying problems, or implementing universal healthcare or single payer system, we were sold out to the insurance companies. While this nonsense was being drafted up, it was clear that insurance companies were at least partially responsible for dicking it up.
There was other things they could've done to reduce costs, but instead we got this mess.
>>75249929
unconstitutional, robbing peter to pay paul. If you're not able to take care of yourself, why should I?
>>75249929
>forcing people to buy insurance.
Whats next? Is kingz Obongo going to come out with a new phone and force every citizen to use a phone or pay a fee?
