could a talented rider on a cyclocross bike keep up with a bunch of freds on front or full suspension 29ers? not on intense downhill courses, but on moderately technical trails?
if not, as I've heard some people say no before, what exactly is it that keeps them from being able to keep up? does the suspension allow for more weight to be carried across bumps? will mountain bikes be able to reach speeds and take falls that would destroy the frame or wheels of a cx bike? does the geometry of a cx bike prevent them from going around corners or something effectively?
we're assuming that the cx rider is capable of putting down more power and is just as good technically to compensate for the ill suitedness of his bike for rougher terrain. the only possible limiting factor that I can think of would be the tires, but we're not trying to race on a course where the tires are actually going to be pushed to their limits
>>898039
It depends on just how poor those freds are (technical skill, physical performance, balls, etc). and the exact terrain. There are cases where a guy on a CX bike could beat another on a mountain bike, but it's unlikely to happen in the real world.
Why exactly are you asking this? If it's just a purely theoretical question then that's probably the best answer you're going to get, but if there's a deeper meaning behind the question then I can elaborate on certain points.
if the trail is rough enough to need full suspension then no probably not. If the trail is rough enough to need front suspension then unlikely. If the trail is nice enough for a cx bike then only if the cx rider is exceptionally skilled and the mtn bikers really suck.
Use the right tool for the job, would you try to hammer with a phillips head screw driver?
>>898047
well I currently just have a road bike and a comically undersized rigid 26er and I'd like to ride with my lads on trails, but I don't want to get a proper mountain bike while I do want to get a cx bike (in order to one day fred in cx)
obviously I wouldn't be able to keep up with them from day one, but I wouldn't be able to do that with a mtb either. I live in a somewhat hilly, rural area, meaning that there are decently hilly trails, but there aren't a huge amount of technical trails and there aren't any downhill courses at all. I'd also just like to understand exactly what makes mtb bikes good at what they do
>>898051
>rough enough to need full suspension then no probably not
what exactly does this mean? at what point will a rigid bike simply be inadequate? does it take drops? roots?
>Use the right tool for the job, would you try to hammer with a phillips head screw driver?
well if a hammer and a screwdriver both cost $1000 and I had one thing that needed to be hammered and twenty screws that need to be driven, then yes I probably would
>>898053
also I'm not just trying to be a jew or make things harder for myself, I really enjoy both drop bars and the feeling of a rigid bike as well as the simplicity of mechanical discs and solid forks and I don't think I'd ever push a full suspension bike to its limits
I guess what I'm really asking is "how hard do you have to go on a cx bike before you start fucking up the frame and/or wheels"
>>898053
>does it take drops?
To a certain extent, depending on the exact bike, rider weight, and how smoothly the rider can land.
>roots?
Sure, if you go slow enough a cx bike could ride over most stuff that the gearing and grip will allow.
Suspension doesn't tend to make the impossible possible unless it's big drops and jumps, but it makes riding over rough shit faster and safer. If you want to keep up with your buddies and they're not complete scrubs (in which case you shouldn't be riding with them) then a proper mountain bike will be needed unless the terrain is fairly smooth.
>>898055
anon, I say go for it with the cx, I got my cheapo for $800. When you make it down you will know whether you needed different bike or not.
>>898057
I see, I suppose I'll just have to give up my dreams of cxing my way to glory and just give up the shekels
maybe I'll rent a suspension bike for a day and see if it's something I think I need
>>898060
now I don't know what to believe ;__;
maybe I'll buy a used cx bike and hunt down freds with progressively nicer bikes, robbing them on the trails until I'm on a full suspension mtb
>>898062
>maybe I'll buy a used cx bike and hunt down freds with progressively nicer bikes
guy you probably are a fred. Lets face the facts, you dont even know what type of bike you need.. sorry to sound like a dick but its the truth.
I'll chime in, I have actually taken my CX bike on a group ride with a bunch of dudes who showed up with their (full sus) mountain bikes. I'm a strong roadie, moderately skilled on the CX, used to ride rigid MTBs a bunch, and was familiar with the trails we were riding - and I was able to surprise the hell out the other dudes by not only keeping up, but keeping up with the fast guys (we had to keep stopping to wait for the less-fit people) - but - as the ride went on I started having trouble hanging on and trailed out to the back, partially because I had actually ridden an hour beforehand to reach the meetup point (everyone else arrived by car), but mostly because on rough rocky trails it takes a lot more effort to ride a CX bike than a mountain bike since you have to be extra picky about your lines, but you will get bounced and jostled around a lot more by the ride (narrower tires, rigid bike) and that does wear you down. Finally, just before the end of the ride we went down a really tough downhill trail, and that's where a CX bike is really limited - I kept having to dismount to jump off/around big obstacles, and I my ride ended when I decided to roll off a drop about 18", which lead to a front tire blowout and some rim damage.
If you want to see the trails I'm talking about just google Palmer Park MTB, there's lots of gopro footage online (not mine).
So basically OP, I'd go with >>898051
Pick the best tool for the job, if you're going to be riding technical trails most of the time, go for a mountain bike with big knobby tires and maybe suspension, or get a cyclocross bike if you're going to be on less technical trails most of the time and also want something you can ride on the road from your house to the trails.
The cxer would have difficulty going over logs, rock gardens, huge roots, jumps, etc. They would do fine on the rest probably.
>>898051
>would you try to hammer with a phillips head screw driver?
If a philips head screw driver is the best tool I have available, then yes, absolutely.
>>898082
> best tool I have available
That would be a fair point if OP already had the CX bike, but he doesn't. He has the choice of buying one or a mountain bike.
I've passed freds on Nomads on downhills on my cross bike, the average mountain fred is extremely slow. Cross bikes are super capable, just scary to ride on steeps because of high BB and steep HT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYLRFWX6pf4
>>898506
>Smooth trail
>Hard on the brakes when things get even slightly rough
That trail doesn't justify anything beyond a short travel suspension fork, the fact it can be done on a CX bike doesn't make them super capable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_BQIJUu5Z8
after seeing this video, I've come to the conclusion that a CX bike will be perfect for my needs. I just couldn't imagine a situation where you'd actually need any kind of suspension until watching this. I suppose I just wasn't really appreciating the speeds at which you're taking jumps, drops, corners, bumps, rocks, roots, etc. with these bikes. The trails I have available to me come nowhere near this level of difficulty, and I'd have to drive several hours to find anything like this.
As a fred (see >>898066 , can't argue with that), I probably wouldn't be able to do a trail like this even on a full sus bike, but I wouldn't want to have to worry about squashing a rim or snapping my wrists like I would on a cx bike. I'm just doing shitty wooded paths with sand, roots, and hills, and I would never bring a proper mtb anywhere near its limits.
>>898506
this looks like a lot of fun and certainly enough to keep up with the lads I ride with. your bike looks nice as does the trail. I hope you have fun. I'd definitely rather do something like this and push my limits than just get an mtb and roll over everything since I have shit for trails.
>>898525
but anon... that was a beginners trail....
ok if its just a little sand and a few roots then yeah a cx bike is probably fine, I do things like that on my cx still and even take some small jumps.. desu I do that on my road bike too but they are more like little drops and whatnot.
>>898086
But he said he wants to start racing cx. If I only had to hammer stuff on occasion but had to turn in phillips-head screws on a regular basis, and I had neither a hammer or phillips head screwdriver, and could only acquire one, I would definitely go with the screwdriver.
>>898053
Keep in mind you can race cx on a mtb as long as it's just casual cx and you aren't racing really competitively. As long as it's not UCI-sanctioned of course, I believe they ban mtbs.
And yes rigid mountain bikes can do roots and small drops, even a road bike could. You only need suspension if you are doing really aggressive and/or really technical downhill, jumping 20+ foot cliffs, that kind of thing. Notice that I said "need". Suspension is great even for regular mtbing, but it's not *needed* for anything other than the gnarly as fuck stuff. You will just need good bike handling skills in order to efficiently ride rough trails without suspension. Suspension lets you just plow over everything and not give a fuck, without suspension you have to really pick your line and be in full control of your bike, much less room for error.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=mountain+biking+on+a+cyclocross+bike
>>898607
>https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=mountain+biking+on+a+cyclocross+bike
4th video down is my hometown, those are not mtn bike trails. Those are little bs trails that I used to ride when I was 10 years old on a fucking bmx bike when going paintballing behind the stadium.
>>898603
>But he said he wants to start racing cx
If you could point out where he says so that'd be great. Did ctrl+f for "race" and "compete" and found nothing.
If that is what he wants to do and is actually a possibility and likely to happen (i.e. there are events that he can get to) then by all means get it.
>>898604
You're definition of need is technically correct, but illogical. Truth is you can ride almost any trial on a fixie if you go slow enough and have the skills, you can ride a skatepark on a road bike, or you can commute on a DH bike, but having a more suited bike for the discipline is more fun and safer.
Suspension isn't just for taking drops or ploughing over rocks (a short travel bike is still going to chuck you about), it also helps maintain traction over rough ground where a rigid bike will just skip over bumps. That increased traction allows you to ride faster and more safely.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNPpKrt9qPk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPY09hP6Xq0
RIGID 29ER.
YA HEAR ME?!?!?
RIGID 29ER
I
G
I
D
2
9
E
R
>>898624
>Suspension isn't just for taking drops or ploughing over rocks (a short travel bike is still going to chuck you about), it also helps maintain traction over rough ground where a rigid bike will just skip over bumps. That increased traction allows you to ride faster and more safely.
Which is exactly why I said the last two sentences in the post you quoted. You basically said exactly the same thing as I said.
The freds would have to be extremely bad to loose to a CX bike. If the CX bike had a dropper post it might be able to keep up, otherwise it wouldn't stand a chance.
CX frames are way bigger than a MTB frame and have bad trail-unfriendly geometry which will kill your confidence and speed. Plus the trails around here would destroy your wheels and tires very quickly.
>>898039
OP. Take a test ride. Ride your road bike on the trails you would ride with your mtb friends. If you cannot do it, a cx bike isn't going to help you much. If you're going to ride something like fire roads and not too gnarly descents you might keep up with freds on mtbs. A real cx race bike would still be unconfident ride and 33 mm tires would wreck your wheels on rocky sections but some monster cross type bike would work with xc type trails.
>>898683
So fred now means race? I know there are varying definitions but I thought it generally meant the opposite, buying an expensive bike and not fully utilising it (for example buying a full carbon road bike for a few grand when you don't race).
>>898684
No, you said that suspension allows you to plough over everything and not give a fuck. That's not even close to being true unless we're talking about long travel/DH bikes and even then they have their limits.
A short travel bike isn't really going to be able to going straight over massive rocks easier than a CX bike, if you go at it too fast you're still going to get thrown about.
>>898642
might as well be paved on those smooth sections. Otherwise its like 3 second clips between cuts
>>898039
>could a talented rider on a cyclocross bike keep up…
>…but we're not trying to race on a course where the tires are actually going to be pushed to their limits
This contradiction made it immediately clear to me why you can't figure this out for yourself.
>>898525
>Lift-assisted downhill
>Enduro ride!
What a queer.
>>898600
That trail is ranked as a double black diamond.
>>898604
>Suspension lets you just plow over everything and not give a fuck, without suspension you have to really pick your line and be in full control of your bike, much less room for error.
Translation: I ride slowly
>>898624
>Suspension isn't just for taking drops or ploughing over rocks (a short travel bike is still going to chuck you about), it also helps maintain traction over rough ground where a rigid bike will just skip over bumps.
thank you, I didn't know that
>>898677
definitely on my list
>>898695
>CX frames are way bigger than a MTB frame and have bad trail-unfriendly geometry
can you elaborate on this? what exactly are the geometry differences, other than higher bars and lower seat post?
>>898701
don't CX bikes usually have 38s?
>>898705
well a Fred is really a slow guy on a fast bike. I would like to race (my state has a nice CX scene) but I didn't want to use that word since I most likely won't really be competitive
>>898749
33 mm is the maximum permitted tyre width in CX.
>>898749
>thank you, I didn't know that
No problem, a surprising amount of people don't understand that suspension has a purpose other than comfort or taking big hits.
>can you elaborate on this?
Steeper head angles for one thing. That moves your weight forward making it more likely you'll go over the bars on steep descents or hitting bumps, especially combined with drop bars and a relatively long stem. Also, I haven't researched any exact numbers but I would assume they have lower bottom brackets giving less ground clearance, pedal strikes can be a real issue with riding off road.
And one more thing OP. Last time I rode with my friend I was on my full rigid drop bar 29er and he was on a hardtail. I was always faster than him no matter if it was a smooth or more technical section or ascending or descending. So yes skill and stamina outperforms gear if the advantage isn't too big.
>CX frames are way bigger than a MTB frame and have bad trail-unfriendly geometry
can you elaborate on this?
It's hard to get playful on the bike with a long flat top tube getting in the way. Even an undersized CX frame with a dropper or the seat slammed is going to feel really awkward compared to a normal MTB.
>>898749
CX race bikes have 32c or 33c. However, a lot of bikes marketed and referred to as cx bikes are not actually designed for cx racing, they just share the same general design (frame geometry and such), so they may have wider tires.
Example of CX race bike: Trek Boone
Example of non-race cx bike: Surly Crosscheck
>>898750
In UCI-sanctioned races, yes. However, some non-UCI cx races don't give a fuck.
Of course cx race bikes always come with UCI-legal tires because that's what cx racers want.
>>898705
>So fred now means race?
You are right about what fred means but OP seemed to be referring to cx races so I took him to mean he wants to ride in cx races but not expect to place well in them or do high leve racing.
>>898705
>No, you said that suspension allows you to plough over everything and not give a fuck. That's not even close to being true unless we're talking about long travel/DH bikes and even then they have their limits.
>A short travel bike isn't really going to be able to going straight over massive rocks easier than a CX bike, if you go at it too fast you're still going to get thrown about.
Obviously more suspension makes it easier to plough over stuff. Any amount of suspension will make it easier than on a rigid bike. Obviously you can't plough over a 1 foot tall log on a cross country bike even if it has suspension, but on a full suspension trail bike you can easily charge down a rock garden without picking a line, whereas on a rigid bike it's much more important to pick a line and it will require more skill.
>>898747
>That trail is ranked as a double black diamond.
psshh maybe the skiing version of it. It looks easy as fuck compared to some of the stuff I have ridden and the rider obviously wasnt very good.
>>898831
The trail rating is visible in the very first second of the footage.
>>898525
my driveway requires more skill than that trail
>>899207
can I come ride your driveway?
>>899208
why
its really boring and easy
>>899268
I thought it was double black diamond
>>899320
that trail is not a black diamond
you could ride it on a road bike no problem
Gotta agree with the other posters, there's nothing really challenging about that trail. The only things that may cause issues with inexperienced riders are the skinnies at the beginning, the wall ride just over half way through, and then if you're a complete retard you might end up going into a tree in the wooded sections. The few jumps aren't an issue at all as they're just table tops with no gap, take them as slow as you want.
If that's what passes for "expert" the amateur courses must be really fucking boring.
>>898839
For skiing in the winter and that was for a trail he didn't turn off onto... My god you are a fuck dumbass
>>898039
lmao, those tats what a fag
>>899597
>I am illiterate
Read the sign, you dullard.
>>899747
I'm still right and you are still wrong
I'm surprised these haven't been mentioned in this thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgoY3T3crZc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Izlfe5n_jK8
Hey, If Chris can do it why couldn't you?
>>899776
Because Chris is one of the most talented riders in the world, no one on /n/ comes anywhere close to him. Also it's just a video, it doesn't show all the fuck ups and riding like that on that sort of bike takes far more effort, so it's not one continuous rider but rather select sections.
Stick him on a more suited bike and he'll be even better. Stick a normal person on a more suited bike and they might get close to him with a handicap.
>>898677
master race
