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You are currently reading a thread in /mu/ - Music
/comp/
Composition general
An experiment in a pen-and-paper composing general, made for all the theory autists
This will differ from /prod/ in that it is more focused on art music and music theory. That is not to say /prod/'s electronic music is unwelcome, by all means, post here! But follow in the footsteps of the classical composers of the 20th century who experimented in electronic music.
Post clyps, and please post accompanying notation so we can accurately critique your composing from a theory perspective
>Theory
http://tobyrush.com/theorypages/index.html
>tl;dr version
https://gumroad.com/l/tldrmusic#
>Basic composing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWbH1bhQZSw&list=PL341D841389B2FEC7
http://composer.rowy.net/
>Fux's Counterpoint
http://www.opus28.co.uk/Fux_Gradus.pdf
Can someone help me build the copypasta? We need stuff on harmony and melody and notation
Also, some infographics
Bumping
If these threads become a regular thing, I'll start contributing some original compositions
>>65341218
>>Fux's Counterpoint
>http://www.opus28.co.uk/Fux_Gradus.pdf
is this worth reading or am i better off reading some contemporary counterpoint textbook
>>65341450
i love it, its helped me alot. Can you really refuse to read the book that Beethoven trusted?
new ideas always help (though this is technically an old idea)
>>65341350
>>65341611
use this to make chord progression (remember to break the rules whenever you feel like it)
This sounds like a good idea for a general. Even if I don't compose it would be interesting to here your stuff and get different ideas and theories on Classical music.
>>65341674
>>65341792
>>65341909
How do you pronounce Fux?
>>65342431
fooks, long -oo like shampoo
>>65342500
dubs
>>65341792
>>65341909
>Posting this bait
>>65341792
>>65341909
>the intros and solos are the job of the lead guitarist
could anyone explain linear counterpoint to me?
>counterpoint
>harping about progressions that dont include goat ii- V7 I
>no blues, no rhythm changes, certainly no latin
>what are changes even doe
>what is the diminished mode
>what are modes even
>what is harmonic minor
>what modes come from whoah you flatted the 3rd
>what is super locrian
>what is a 7th chord
>what is a flat 9, sharp 11, flat 13 dominant?
>what are all these numbers
>in how many keys do you find c major 7?
>what is comping
>what is polyrhythm
>not knowing your jazz theory
>still harping on about sonataallegro in 2016
>intro chorus bridge chorus trade 8's chorus outro
>what is the piano
>mfw lydian is the true center or tonal gravity, and C is a lie
>mfw i know literally nothing about music
hate the fact that this got buried. I'd post my compositions if i w-w-w-w-w-weren't unconfident desu. y'all can post yours though and I'll tell you what I think of it. c'mon, don't be shy, I won't even call you a fag if I hate it, I promise. keep in mind that this coming from someone who's been composing classically for a year and a half, so I may be a bit of a newbie
>>65345070
Jazz is art music, too, your compositions are welcome
The harmony is especially interesting, do you have a good resource to add to the copypasta?
>>65345273
Can you explain how to write a solid musical period and sentence?
>>65345417
you mean like cadences & melodies? you really have to learn how to construct melodies, you could probably be taught that perfect fifths and fourths "feel" pure and that tritones "feel" weird and that major/minor seconds "feel" tense, but that will only serve clarify what you're already likely to learn naturally. as for cadences, you can do what you like. traditionally one will end on the tonic, but you can end with a specific melodic line that's repeated throughout the comp, or with the fourth or fifth degree, or even with some dissonant tone. it's all about what fits & what sounds good. btw I'm bad with music theory terminology, sorry
>>65345290
best theory is jazz theory. ive had classical teachers that just do not understand that there is a universe beyond the planet of the 7 major modes.
levines jazz book. post a torrent theres tons of em. i recommend a pastebin.
but this is all presupposing you all can read the black dots on lines and between the lines. and know at least your major scales. and considering the abundant raping of the guitar that goes on around here, something tells me nobody can play me a rootless 251 in drop 2 around the cycle.
all the books i have are for piano. but essentially know all your modes. "minor" is almost always the natural minor built from the 6th mode. which is lol still "major".
flat the 3rd degree, you get 7 new modes. welcome to jazz.
add a passing tone between the 5th/6th degree, woah u get a world of new modes. whole tone harmony, coltrane changes, all based off augmented chord tones (stack major thirds, they cycle after the 3rd iteration). diminished chords are stacked minor 3rds,cycle after the 4th iteration.
diminished scales, 3 total. from each scale you can derive 4 dominant chords.
a -7b5 chord (minor triad w/ 6 in the base aka HALFDIM) is a rootless dominant chord with a b9. each major/natural minor key has 2 major chords, 1 -7b5, 1 dom7, 3 minor.
>if you cant improvise you cant compose
jazzadvice.com is also nice
again: i know less than nothing about music.
>>65345854
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ5Co1vPRaw
this guy. this guy knows shit about music. i dont. i can barely fucking arrange a standard.
Trained composer here. I support this thread
Posting a few maqams for those interested in microtonal music
You can find more info here on what the microtonal symbols mean and how much to retune notes (all DAWs will let you fine tune notes to at least the nearest 10 cents, if not the nearest cent):
http://www.hinesmusic.com/What_Are_Makams.html
>>65346221
whaddya think of Alois Haba famalam? he's the one who got me into microtonal music
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iat6r5jVS0A
>>65345854
How does a jazz musician compose? It must be difficult to leave enough room for improv
How did you guys memorize your scales? One major/minor per day?
>>65345070
>>65345854
the fuck are you on about
Levine's book is outdated af, modal playing is not exactly new, and classical music teachers past your undergrad intro to music theory are certainly at the very least aware of the concepts you outlined because serialist and post tonal music has been around for nearly ONE-HUNDRED YEARS.
its hypocritical to criticise the classical music theory and analysis school for being outdated or backwards when academic jazz theory has fallen into the exact same situation
OH, and the lydian chromatic concept is basically a hippy conspiracy theory
>>65346339
Haba is fucking great. I have respect for any composer who manages to make microtonal music sound good! That particular piece you posted doesn't even sound microtonal, only towards the last minute or so.
>>65346866
there's something about the violin that seems to work with microtonal music. played on piano it usually sounds like shit, but on violin, at its very worst, it sounds like regular dissonance. btw the only really good microtonal piano piece I've actually heard is by Alois:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7vZURdhucM
>>65347041
nah man, lamonte young's microtonal piano stuff is great
>>65347101
damn, you're right. it's always fun to find microtonal music that isn't just trying to be edgy or something.
>My favorite circle graph
Question, can a balanced knowledge in theory be attained through online resources? It's been a difficult journey learning and I find it hard to connect the dots when I try to create. Most of the time I create with intuition and edit with theory
>>65347523
>Most of the time I create with intuition and edit with theory
same t b h. most of what i do is intuition. my intuition is shit tho
>>65347523
>>65347781
ive gone through so many books dude what the fuck why cant i play a standard
>>65341218
How do you explain to a tone deaf girl the difference and similarity between g3 and g4 (an octave)
>>65347523
That is the most confusingest chart I've ever seen. TMI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZTSkO_S770
>>65347041
>>65346866
>>65347388
>>65349856
>tfw last composition workshop JP was my mentor.
He's such a nice guy! amazing music as well. Omnifenix is the best saxohpone concerto yet.
Weird and probably stupid question, but are there "scales" that aren't part of the 12 main notes used in most music? All scales, even non-western ones, are all playable by western instruments (usually pentatonic), and there are those weird ones like hexatonic and so forth, which are still describable through A#, A, Ab, and so on.
But can you forget all that and remove one note from the chromatic scale, so that the 12 evenly spaced intervals in an octave become 11 evenly spaced intervals, and so forth? What would that sound like?
>>65349683
If she's actually deaf, the difference between a sine wave with one frequency and another with twice that frequency.
>>65350096
The last mode of Messian's modes of limited transposition is a mode with 11 notes from memory
>>65350096
tone deaf, and what good does that do? Who the fuck hears via sine wave. Just an all round terrible response
>>65350225
You're retarded, you can't explain something to someone that they can't perceive. It's like trying to explain the color blue to a blind person.
>>65350096
you're basically describing some types of microtonal music
>>65350096
>12 evenly spaced intervals
THEY'RE NOT EVENLY SPACED DID I JUST BLOW YOUR MIND
Think about it, there's an infinite amount of notes between a semitone, we humans just can't hear the differences very well.
>>65341611
what if people yelled at 126 db
(which is about as loud as a jet engine)
>>65350295
i'm pretty sure those are MIDI numbers, not dB measurements
>>65350266
They are in equal tempered music
literally the point of post-baroque western harmony
>>65350266
Pretty sure they are evenly spaced
Maybe you guys might like this
https://clyp.it/dqchpj1k
>>65350376
>https://clyp.it/dqchpj1k
tune ur piano ouch
otherwise nice
I saved like half of the thread's pictures
>>65350410
Thanks. The piano hasn't been tuned for years. I stopped playing for a good 4 years, only came back to tinker with it a bit.
>>65341218
So do I really have to read fux? I want to into counterpoint but I'm looking for alternatives.
I mean, I can into the theory and stuff, but I wish he just listed the rules systematically or something instead of the whole student teacher story shit.
Also, unrelated, but I see people posting cheatsheets and such, do you guys have /wg/ versions?
>>65344223
>write two or more melodies
>hope they go well with each other
>they don't
>try to fix everything
>it's more terrible than before
>cry
>>65350317
duuuuuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
>>65341218
>This will differ from /prod/ in that it is more focused on art music and music theory. That is not to say /prod/'s electronic music is unwelcome, by all means, post here! But follow in the footsteps of the classical composers of the 20th century who experimented in electronic music.
Do I get a pass for this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IampNk-k_Ag
>>65346492
>How did you guys memorize your scales? One major/minor per day?
That's not how you memorise all the scales. Learn the rules of why the notes are there and you only need to really learn one of each. You can just transpose it to whatever key then.
>>65350266
They are evenly spaced after about 1750. Thats what the "Well Tempered Clavier" was all about, showcasing the stability of the new tuning system by having preludes and fugues in every key (in the non-standard spaced tunings like pythagorean and mean tone, keys that weren't C, D G or A tended to sound strained and weird)
>>65350490
>I want to into counterpoint but I'm looking for alternatives.
University. That or read through a modern harmony textbook. Fux is pretty good to be honest, if you work through his exercises diligently and check your work, you will understand counterpoint.
Salome unrelated
Somewhat old and simple things i would have posted in /comp/ if it existed at that time
Opinions, advices ?
https://clyp.it/d0prscao
https://clyp.it/wkab4xgs
>>65341218
Made a chorale for concert band based off of this image. Thanks for the inspiration!
I only wrote the brass parts. The woodwinds are verbatim their brass counterparts, aside from sharing all moving lines.
This is about as good as it gets with free soundfonts.
https://soundcloud.com/moonchickendograt/authentic-chorale
>>65351056
this is quite nice
>>65351074
thanks!
>using diatonic chords and not inventing new triads
>no modal interchange
>>65351110
I've wrote some pretty weird shit before, very unfinished things that don't make a lot of sense. I def wouldn't put on my soundcloud.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/2a22zp2aqbuzfj2/ff.wav
>>65350905
>University
nope, too late for that
>read through a modern harmony textbook.
I guess I could do that, Any suggestions?
>Fux
Maybe if I can't find anything else
Thanks, anon
>>65351302
kostka-payne is pretty commonly used afaik. my local half price books has a ton of them, so yours might too
>>65351110
Dude wtf are you doing to those poor guitars?!
Don't lean them on the neck like that, you'll fuck them up. Especially the semi acoustic that is leaned OVER A FUCKING RADIATOR! Jesus I'm triggered so hard by this.
Lean them on something where the weight is rested on the body of the guitar so the necks don't warp. And not over a fecking radiator where the heat will make it worse!
>>65351110
>inventing new triads
>new triads
>new
u wot
>>65351446
>ER A FUCKING RADIATOR
heatings not on
I tak ethem on 10 mile walks without cases, they'll br fine, donmt sweat it
>>65351518
>I tak ethem on 10 mile walks without cases, they'll br fine, donmt sweat it
Seriously dude, it won't do it all in one day but leaning them on the neck like that will fuck the action and intonation after a few years. I seriously hope you don't do this.
>>65351528
>>65351566
>>65351579
It was a Gibson les paul they are notoriously unbalanced
>>65351603
If it was a Telecaster I would have been more upset.
How do you compose with modes when there's no clear chord progression?
>>65351695
>re's no clear chord progression?
it was rained on?
>>65351695
don't bother
Dont know if there are any Singaporeans here, but I wrote this for a compilation of local songs. Thoughts? Once again it's largely improvised, so mistakes are aplenty.
https://clyp.it/tvcjhk4g
>>65351860
Opps wrong song
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qd3mmw7ozhcxena/sketch%5B1%5D.mp3?dl=0
>>65351860
Ryuichi Sakamoto, is that you?
Is there any kind of site for creative composing challenges?
Like, I read a text about Morton Feldman where it mentions he gave his students creative composing challenges, such as a work for soprano and orchestra where the soprano sings an article in the newspaper. Is there some kind of place for shit like that?
>>65351985
I don't understand who's that?
>>65352154
You'd probably dig him. It was meant as a compliment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGs_vGt0MY8
>>65352173
I can't check out the video now but I will do it when I have time. Anymore Japanese pianist I should check out?
>>65350953
>csq no feedback
am i this bad /comp/ ?
>>65352300
Not Japanese, but another of my favourites is Erik Satie.
>>65341218
Are there some books I could just read on this shit instead? I prefer books to online resources for this sort of thing.
>>65351695
focus on the tensions and finding some way of resolving them I guess? like 6 to b7 on Mixolydian for example
of course that could imply things like add6 -> 7 chord in whatever the key is, but it could mean something else depending on what the other instruments are playing, etc. so it's ambiguous, but sort of still functional
Not really good on theory and stuff but I've been playing around with my guitar and muscore for a while
I think I sort of get how the notes work, etc ( but probably still suck at reading).
Anyway, I'm not really sure how to continue. Any tips?
>>65352603
pic related if it helps at all lol
>>65352310
I can't really provide any constructive criticism, but it's pretty good.
I think you should work on the second song, the part that you've already written coupled with some other instruments could make for a very interesting rhythm section
>>65352622
Could you provide the .mscz file?
>>65345070
wow, this is really embarassing. how can you deduct from the easiest and most basic classical music theory charts that classical music theory doesn't go any further? all the points of your post are covered very thoroughly in classical music, and in a much more constructive way than in jazz.
Jazz musicians always try to explain why something is brillant after the wanked on their instruments, listen to something like Ravel, such raffinesse, and you ask "what are all these numbers" as if composers where idiots that couldn't think about it.
Do you even compose?
>>65352622
After the second volta, instead of writing out the flat A's and D's you should change the key to F minor
>>65352690
filedropper dot com slash untitled-4_3
>>65352752
Thanks, I'll try to see how to do that in muscore
>>65350096
the 12 tones are derived from stucking perfect fifths with a small difference in the end, which is compnesated by the temperation. A 11 tone system would be completely arbitrary and not built on musical tradition.
>>65352752
depends on how he's going to continue. If you change the key you imply a change in the ductus of the piece, but mostly it's just for some bars. In the development section classical composers hardly ever change the key, also the second theme is always written with accidents to show that there is some kind of tension there.
>>65352130
>Is there some kind of place for shit like that?
university / college
composition classes are 100% "write x piece for y instruments"
>>65351695
look at renaissance music. They focus on voice leading, and melodies. When the modal melodies interweave in polyphony, it creates tension and release, which is what chords do anyway.
Also modes can and do create chords, your chords are simply made up of the notes from the mode. (see pic)
I mean look at this, entirely in one mode (some raised notes around cadences) and yet some of the most beautiful music ever written:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRfF7W4El60
>>65352973
I'm afk now but I'll check it when I'll get back, if you're still around
>>65353573
I am an absolute pleb on modes and I want to understand how to use them properly
Spoonfeed me /mu/!
I've noticed that it's impossible to write a chord progression in dorian or lydian since it just sounds like it is in aeolian and ionian respectively; therefore modes can only be used as a melodic tool; right?
On the other hand; how the hell do people make whole songs utilizing only one scale (Oriental let's say) if the harmony would center on melodic minor? I'm honestly confused as hell
>>65354109
not the same guy, but I'll try to explain anyway:
you can still be in a mode and resolve to the tonic
for example, in D dorian, you can still do a ii - V7 - i min 13
of course V7 is not in the mode, but this is the kind of alteration >>65353573 takes about when some notes may be raised around the cadences to get nice voice leading
>>65354109
Modes are more of a melodic tool, yes. I'm not sure what you mean by the second part though, the harmony could center on melodic minor in a song written in the oriental scale, by only using the shared notes between the oriental and melodic minor scale
>>653(see pic)
>I mean look at this, entirely in one mode (some raised notes around cadences) and yet some of the most beautiful music ever written:
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRfF7W4El60 [Embed]
>>>
> Anonymous 06/02/16(Thu)12:59:52 No.65353922▶
>>>65352973
>I'm afk now but I'll check it when I'll get back, if you're still around
>>>
> Anonymous 06/02/16(Thu)13:15:50 No.65354109▶>>65354413 >>65354425
>>>65353573
>I am an absolute pleb on modes and I want to understand how to use them properly
>Spoonfeed me /mu/!
>I've noticed that it's impossible to write a chord progression in dorian or lydian since it just sounds like it is in aeolian and ionian respectively; therefore modes can only be used as a melodic tool; right?
>On the other hand; how the hell do people make whole songs utilizing only one scale (Oriental let's say) if the harmony would center on melodic minor? I'm honestly confused as hell
>>>
> Anonymous 06/02/16(Thu)13:40:00 No.65354413▶
>>>65354109
>not the same guy, but I'll try to explain anyway:
>you can still be in a mode and resolve to the tonic
>for example, in D dorian, you can still do a ii - V7 - i min 13
>of course V7 is not in the mode, but this is the kind of alteration >>65353573 takes about when some notes may be raised around the cadences to get nice voice leading
>>>
> Anonymous 06/02/16(Thu)13:41:00 No.65354425▶
>>>65354109
>Modes are more of a melodic tool, yes. I'm not sure what you mean by the second part though, the harmony could center on melodic minor in a song written in the oriental scale, by only using the shared notes between the oriental and melodic minor scale
Learning these things is useful but afterwards unlearn it and play instinctively
Can someone please tell me if I'm composing right. This is one of the first pieces I'm actually kinda proud of but idk. Please give criticism.
https://musescore.com/user/6297291/scores/2076756
>>65354698
You need better organization and motivic development. Try to compose rigid, short compositions first. Practice writing periods, sentances, then go to binary and rondo form.
The piece you linked meandered about without repeating itself. In the beginning, you want to repeat yourself. When you're better at composing, break as many rules as you want, but start out small right now.
>>65354109
music is not modes... that's just a sad misconception that Jazz theory seeded into musicians' brains. Music is either
>sound collage (schoenberg, debussy, [modern] jazz!)
>functional harmonics (classical/romantic)
>only really modal in the renaissance and before, but then without harmonic dimension
when guide notes come into play you're in an area between functional harmonics and modal harmonics
>>65355120
>music isn't just the will of the composer
get out nigga, see >>65345290
Can we make /comp/ a thing?
>>65355136
so what? I never said Jazz wasn't music. But it's completely different than functional harmonic music. A cadence m e a n s something like a sentence or a terminus. In a Jazz piece only the sounds speak for themselves. Early composers like Ellington/Porter are a bit functional, because they are influenced by the blues, which is influenced heavily by church music
>>65355155
yes, please. but I have low expectations seeing how slow this thread goes
>>65354425
Okay maybe I gave a bad example
Whats the point of using only the shared notes then? Then you are not technically using the oriental scale
I'll just approach this problem the other way around
Let's say I have this chord progression: I - vi - ii - V
Is there a mode that I can use throughout ALL these chords that would fit; or do I need to modify the mode itself on certain chords?
At least how I understand it; folk songs a lot of the time use one scale per song
The question is how the hell is it possible if the scale you are utilizing isn't ionian or natural/harmonic/melodic minor scale (like an egyptian or klezmer scale)?
>>65355264
you use four different modes, ionian, aeolian, dorian and mixolydian, which happen to all use the same notes only with different root notes.
I'm not a fan off this approach, because it's only a tool for jazz musicians to make nothing sound like something. I rather think in functions instead, in guide notes and guide sounds. If you leave this functional sphere and use sounds just as sounds, this whole mode thinking becomes useless imo
I don't know if this is the right place to ask but does anybody know a good free site/guide to learn the piano for beginners?
All of my compositional work has been in the form of writing string/horn/etc. arrangements to indie rock songs I write, so it's not remotely classical but it is all properly notated and stuff. Would anyone be interested in looking at that stuff? I don't have many good demos of anything because I don't see much of a point in fucking around making MIDI sound good when I'm just going to rerecord everything with real instruments later on.
>>65355264
Well, you'd have to change the chord progression to fit whatever unusual scale you want then, to my knowledge that's the only way, unless you're hardcore avant-garde or something
If only we could have communal species counterpoint sessions, some kind of hangout with a whiteboard and sheet music we can play. Surely such a thing exists? googlehangouts_musiclecture?
Either way, this guys counterpoint channel is pretty good, as long as you dont mind his italian accent:
https://www.youtube.com/user/artofcounterpoint/videos
He has pretty comprehensive Counterpoint and Harmony lessons, about 15 videos each. And he writes some fugues on pop songs it seems
how did i do?
>>65355330
That way you will be playing diatonically which obviously is going to sound boring
>>65355544
Okay but as I've mentioned previously; whenever I try to write a chord progression for a mode of the major scale; the chord progression ends up centering on either the ionian or aeolian
Example: Let's say I want to write in D dorian
i - IV - v chord progression; so Dmin - Gmaj - Amin
And it just sounds like it is A aeolian; like I'm playing iv - VII - i
The hell!!!????
tfw learning music theory on my own after neglecting it as a teenager
i really wish i would have done this earlier
>>65355886
Unplayable.jpg
>>65355508
Go ahead
>>65355508
of course. /comp/ is for all compositions
>>65356420
>>65356485
Alright. Here goes:
https://clyp.it/5qoqcn0n
This demo only has the string arrangements in MIDI form, the sax part isn't on there. Also missing are drums (which have since been recorded but not yet mixed or anything), bass, and re-recorded guitars and vocals.
>>65356574
also worth noting: it's two violas instead of violin and viola because my friend plays the viola and writing two viola parts was easier than finding and scheduling recording time with an additional person.
>>65356600
>digits
here's the third page
/theorist/ here.
>>65347523
>can a balanced knowledge in theory be attained through online resources?
I can't say one way or the other, because I'm sure if you did enough digging, you could learn a whole lot, but contemporary theory is presented as this monolith, and that's all people seem to get. There really is a lot more to music theory than the standard two years presented at college, but like I said, that's all that seems to get circulated around.
>>65350096
>but are there "scales" that aren't part of the 12 main notes used in most music?
Yes.
>All scales, even non-western ones, are all playable by western instruments
That's wrong. Gamelan music of Indonesia has a different set of intervals than western music. Same with traditional Chinese music. Western music divides the octave geometrically, whereas Chinese music has instruments that divide the octave symmetrically.
>But can you forget all that and remove one note from the chromatic scale, so that the 12 evenly spaced intervals in an octave become 11 evenly spaced intervals, and so forth? What would that sound like?
You can, but that would sound absolutely awful to probably everyone's ears.
>>65356692
arabic maqams also are microtonal
>>65354109
>I've noticed that it's impossible to write a chord progression in dorian or lydian since it just sounds like it is in aeolian and ionian respectively; therefore modes can only be used as a melodic tool; right?
No. Pop musicians have been using chord progressions in dorian for a while now.
>On the other hand; how the hell do people make whole songs utilizing only one scale (Oriental let's say) if the harmony would center on melodic minor? I'm honestly confused as hell
Lack of functional harmony, or the harmonic background pulls from outside the scale, and the scale is simply connective tissue.
>>65356747
That is true. So are Indian ragas.
remember
>>65345070
>what are modes even
I guarantee you don't know what modes actually are.
How do you figure out what your compositions will sound like without an instrument available? Any software that could do it makes it sound like shit.
>>65358808
its part of being a composer - hearing without actually hearing it. but you really need an instrument to compose, to check yourself
life blood pumping into this thread
Please can someone explain modulation to me? I just want to be able to seamlessly modulate to a major second without it being so noticeable.
>>65362899
im impressed it stayed up this long
ive seen it been made before and dies with like 40 posts
>>65362941
Two ways to modulate
1. Just move to the new key
But since you want to do it seamlessly, you'll need pivot chords. The best way to modulate is by picking chords that can act as pre-dominant chords in both keys. For example, if you're in C major, the pre-dominant chords are A min (sort of), F major, and D minor; the vi, IV and ii chords. A minor is also the ii chord in G major, so you could go Cmaj-Amin- then move to a secondary dominant, which in this case would be D7. So: Cmaj-Amin-D7-G. Bam you're in G major.
D minor is not only the ii of C, but also the iv of A minor. You could go Cmaj-Fmaj-Dmin-E7-Amin, and just like that, you're in A minor.
You can go to more out-there keys, but you have to take chords in the key you're in, and start altering them around just a bit. A minor could be come A major, and that could be your V of D minor. Or you could do some chromatic mediant stuff. Go from Cmaj-Abmaj-Bbmaj-Eb and then you're in Eb.
Or, you could do sequences. Falling fifths are particularly popular. And instead of staying in the key, you could do a cycle of dominant chords to get to your destination.
C7-F7-Bb7-Eb-7-etc.
There are a million ways to modulate.
>>65363553
Okay, I know I said at the beginning that there are two ways, but that's sort of a lie. The two major ways are just simply moving, regardless of smoothness, and using pivot chords to connect related keys, but in reality, there are tons of ways.
>>65355925
if you write the progression down like anon did it is diationic, if you want chromatic notes you have to make it clear somehow
I know alot about music theory, but I made this far before that knowledge.
I'd realy like your oppinion /mu/!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGRSncvkdmU&ab_channel=SamJansen
>>65363660
>>65356813
Screw this
Are there any good books that explain modes thoroughly?
>>65363966
Honestly, not really. Modes have kind of been unexplored in academia outside of jazz and the church modes.
>>65341218
People still use music theory and composition?
Doesn't that hinder your creativity?
>>65364480
It's really useful to know if you ever wish to reference a certain period or style musically, since certain types of cadences and suspensions and what have you are very suggestive of certain other types of music
>>65364480
You'd think that, but the real difference between knowing and not knowing music theory, is that when you don't know it, you'll still apply it, just unknowingly. At least in my case.
>>65364480
>Doesn't that hinder your creativity?
It hinders creativity about as much as learning how to write English limits your ability to tell a story.
>>65363966
hmm modes. what the fuck are they, and how do they have anything to do with modalplaying. well, for starts, they have, for our purposes, nothing to do with playing modally.
you have what you know are your "major scales" which are in fact the first mode of the major tonality. ionian. WWhWWWh is the interval pattern. now, to get the 2nd mode, we start on the 2nd note of the ionian mode of the major tonality. D for simplicity. now the interval patter is WhWWWhW. note it has phase shifted one to the right.
WWhWWWh
WhWWWhW
continue shifting for the remaining 5 modes. knowing the intervallic structure of each mode is step 1, thats the theory behind it. but when you shift the intervalic pattern, you also shift the tonal center, which is now preceded by a whole step (C->D). so now u know the math behind these tonal colors (intervallic pattern and shifting) which is step 1.
step 2 involves the thousand hours of drilling these modes into your skull. if you havent already, harmonize your ionian scales (you know them well right? guess what you dont). i mean play the diatonic 7th chords up the scale (if u dont know how respond and ill explain). Cmaj, Dmin, Emin, Fmaj, G7, etc. through 12 keys. got it? cool, now arpeggiate them. got it? play them drop 1,2,3,4. got it? now we move on to the modes.
2 fundamental ways to practice the modes (if anyone has come up with more, pls share). u can start on say C ionian, go up to D, and then down/up to E, and then play E phryg, then F lydian. etc, there are 4 "directions" to play these in, figure it out. this is the easy, not gonna teach u much way.
the other option is to bounce around (say the circle, stepwise, etc) and play just one mode through 12 keys. C dorian, F dorian, Bb dorian, etc. all 7 modes, 12 keys. got that?
now we harmonize the modes as we did with ionian.
got that? cool, now flat the 3rd of ionian, and woopee u get 7 more modes. i can explain if u dont know why but txt limit.
>>65365263
i didnt precisely explain everything, but once you start harmonizing everything i think it will start clicking. especially harmonizing the modes.
and you dont necessarily need to play tertian chords (based on 3rds). u can harmonize stacking 4ths, with either a 5th, 4th, or 3rd in the melody.
also i suggest playing these scales intervallically in all 4 directions. as in 3rds. C E ; D F ; E G; F A. etc. 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, 7ths.
directions are ascending, descending, ascend/descend, descend/ascend.
got these? now pick a progression (eventually all of them), 251. play 2, and run up its associated dorian scale, play 5 and run its mixolydian scale, and 1 with ionian. 12 keys. fuck around with arpeggios. circling. triads. omitting notes. metronome and syncopation are your friends.
>>65351860
I know this doesn't further any composition stuff but could you tell me what the names of those songs are?
I like folk music and I'm exposed to a lot of English, Scottish and Irish folk (being British 'n' all) but, being a disgusting weeb, I really want to get into folk music from the Far East.
So far, I only know songs like Mo Li Hua (Jasmine Flower) and Arirang through chance.
>>65365263
>>65365468
this is madness
How the hell do you guys use anything but 4ths+? Whenever I use triads they always either sound bad or boring.
>>65365263
>>65365468
Thanks for the effort but I already knew all of this
>251. play 2, and run up its associated dorian scale, play 5 and run its mixolydian scale
Once again it's just playing diatonically in the key of the tonic
Do jazz musicians even do this? How I imagine modes should be used is by applying a mode to a chord which is usually associated with a different mode; therefore introducing accidentals
For example using C lydian or C mixolydian instead of C ionian on the tonic chord. Now mixolydian wouldn't work with Cmaj7 but a C major triad would go together with the mode relatively well
The question remains: Can I make a chord progression out of chords that I get by harmonizing a mode or an exotic scale in general? Because speaking from some experience; it just doesn't work because the chords center on a different tonic; that is; writing in harmonized D dorian ends up sounding like A aeolian; though I've heard that making short one-two chord progressions allows you to do that (isn't this what modal jazz is based on?)
>>65366733
How the hell do you guys use anything but cluster chords? Whenever I use triads/4ths+ they always either sound bad or boring.
where does a newfag to the world of composition, music theory et al but wants to learn go?
Is there some kind of midi file that plays a bunch of different progressions that I can play around with?
could somebody explain non functional harmony to me and share some examples please?
also is saying "modal harmony" the same as "non functional harmony"?
>>65350225
Show it on an oscilloscope. Or explain to her that each 8 notes, the note repeats because the frequency is twice that of the last octave. It's just how the eardrums vibrate is a way such that, the note will repeat played at twice it's current frequency. Also, tone deafness shouldn't completely remove a relation between two octave notes.
I need help with structure, like, how to make introductions, develop a theme, close it, introduce a new one, etc. help me please
>>65341962
I NEED more like this
how do I write strings like the ones on Unanswered Question?
>>65351695
write free jazz
>>65355925
>; the chord progression ends up centering on either the ionian or aeolian
oh shit you just blew my mind
somebody help
>>65369026
Large intervals between each part, first violin in its highest range.
Requiem
imgur.com/I5ybMmZ
vocaroo.com/i/s1ISyHGLP7az
>>65366697
welcome to jazz, that is exercise 1 of page 1 of book 1 of howtojazz.
it doesnt actually take very long. few months at most of daily practice. bill dobbin's creative approach to harmony is the daunting one. methodically drilling every harmonic possibility
>>65366795
can u give an example.
to you it might sound off, but thats fine. youre building tension. you could play C# maj over Cmaj and it works as long as u bring it back to the center convincingly. you dont need to be "in key" the whole time, in fact u dont really even want to once youre comfortable playing with the changes. the more accidentals you add, the further away you are from center, the more tension and thus possibilities of resolution. this is where the risk taking comes in. how far out do u want to go? or can you?
>>65370484
listen to how well he takes this off key
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv2GgV34qIg
>>65370417
for you
what do y'all thinka Ives
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYmC0Z6x7KQ
>>65370643
I understand his importance, and his contributions. I just don't care for him.
>>65370643
this is beautiful
how do I get into Ives? could you post some similar music pls
>>65370848
he usually didn't make music like this. the sonata this is from (concord) is mostly dissonant and free with very little diversions like this. his second symphony is also pretty grand and (not to spoil it) the last chord will make you kek. start there
So guys, some tips for melodies? Im always with melodies and my head, sometimes they are shit but mostly they are ok but not great, sometime I take a guitar/piano and I work out on that.
some tips to make better melodies?
>>65370965
take a guitar/piano and I work out on that.
>>65370965
Good melodies have some kind of form to keep it whole. There's usually some kind of A section and a B section to give contrast before coming back to the A section. Also, think about motivic unity. You really can do more with a lot less. The intro to Beethoven's 5th is probably the most famous piece of music, and that intro consists of four notes repeated on end. With that, you also want to think about the harmony implied with the melody. It doesn't have to be super complex, but generally melodies like to move from one place to another. If it feels kinda stagnant, then it's probably because you're sticking to one harmonic area.
I could probably tell you a million things about writing a good melody, but the best thing for you to do is find melodies you like, and figure out how they work. Learn to play them by ear, and dissect them.
Who /sequencingbecauseyouranoutofideasforthemotive/ here?
I made a dodecaphonic matrix. what do I do with it now.
>>65356692
>You can, but that would sound absolutely awful to probably everyone's ears.
There are methods of constructing harmonic spectra to accommodate equal temperaments with all number of different tones. Deffo something to pursue in computer music.
When should I use 3/4?
When should I use 6/8?
When should I use 12/8?
>>65371727
Waltzes
>>65371747
i meant as opposed to one another
im mainly a pianist and guitarist, but recently i picked up the violin. Ive just been running scales on it and playing some bach i know from piano. i compose for piano and guitar and when i try to write for violin, i cant come up with anything. I mainly write jazz and rock music but im having a hard time transitioning these genres to violin. in general what are some tips to compose for different instruments?
>>65371785
They are literally just ways of organizing your measures
You can write whatever the fuck in whatever special snowflake time sig you want, its just convenient to use 3/4 for a waltz cause doing math to make it fit in 4/4 makes it less convenient
3/4 for all intents and purposes may as well be 6/8, as six 8th notes per measure is literally three quarter notes per measure
>>65355430
I'm not to familiar with websites, but there are plenty of basic tutorials on YouTube. Also, I'd recommend buying some books to get yourself started. Sorry that I can't be much help, but hopefully this sends you in the right direction.
>>65355971
Yeah it can be a pain in the ass. Keep at it though! It's almost like math; there is a set formula for everything. It's what you do with the formulas that will give you your own music. Good luck!
>>65371391
>..but the best thing for you to do is find melodies you like, and figure out how they work. Learn to play them by ear, and dissect them.
Solid advice. I've personally done this, and it it's the method that helped me get started.
>>65371391
>>65373158
True. I did this with the melody from Dvorak's largo in the new world and I'm astounded by how simple it is on paper and how beautiful it is in practice. It's like all the time I'm listening to it I simply can't comprehend that it exists. It's 12 bars, organized in ABA, each being 4 bars. The first A can be split into 2 bars, a simple I-V half cadence. Then the next two bars go I-IV-V-I, with a full cadence. Then the B section is really only 2 bars repeated exactly, hovering between Db maj and Bb min. Then the first two bars of the second A section are the same as the first time, then the final 2 bars simply build a crescendo cadencing with IV-I.
>>65371727
The difference between 3/4 and 6/8 is where the pulse lies. In 3/4 it's the 1st, 3rd, and 5th eighth notes, in 6/8 it's the 1st and 4th eighth notes. They technically might be the same, but mix them up and your human, non-computer performers may slap you.
where can I find composing exercises?
not going to college for that shit tho-lmao
>>65371391
Im sorry to reply so late.
Thanks so much! I will start lo learn about my favorite melodies. thanks so much again!
>>65373539
Challenge yourself
>>65373788
I need somewhere to start. I just make bleeps on my computer and have no idea where to approach this
>>65373822
Write something in rondo form in a minor key
>>65345070
>not understanding the fundamental difference between polyphonic and monophonic textures
>not realising that bach uses 9ths and extended harmonies as well as the ii - V - I and all your 7th shit
>not realising that Ravel has the entire modal and harmonic texture of jazz
>talking about sonata allegro form while jazz is mostly pop 16 bar form shit with head/solos/head
You realise that mozart and bach and all those fuckers knew all that theory right? You know jazz theory isn't even its own theory, its just recontextualised classical theory, right?
You're pretty much just taking the most elementary classical rudiments and generalising like 500 years of music through its lens.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JXSfaAvafM
>>65373539
>Counterpoint exercises
Doesn't matter: two voice, three voice, four. 1st species, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th.
>Transcribing
Find a piece you really like, and try to copy it.
>Improvisation
Set a chord progression, and just dick around for a while.
Tons of things you could do.
is it really a big deal if I try to write something on a piano roll instead of sheet?
too lazy desu
>>65371727
6/8 is like 2/4 but with triplets, this is called compound-duple time because it has an overarching beat of 2, but can be subdivided into 6. To put it plainly, 6/8 = 1 and a 2 and a. 3/4 = one two three. Same relationship with 12/8. Imagine 4/4 but with triplets, so instead of one two three four, its 1 and a 2 and a 3 and a 4 and a.
>>65374028
Yes and no. If you're going to have it performed by a machine, then not really. You can set velocity, and all that stuff, but if sometime down the line you want a human being to perform it, then having it in standard notation would be expected of you.
>>65373822
Okay I got one
>get some paper
>draw a grand staff
>Think of a scale, any scale you want
>do quadruple meter to keep things simple
>think about a simple 16 measure 16 chord chord progression, starting with a tonic and ending on a perfect authentic cadence and on measure four a half cadence
>part write it out following the rules for part writing chords
>think of a motive for your piece, you may use the defined non harmonic tones
>your form you want to follow is A B A' A for this exercise
>phrase A' is similar to A, but you modified the melody in it so that it is noticeably different
Congrats you wrote a double period
>>65374046
Also 6/8 and 3/4 have the exact same amount of notes but feel different, 3/4 has a 3 feel, where as 6/8 has a swaying feel. same thing with 12/8 and 6/4, the former has a 4 feel and the latter has a 3 feel.
>>65374086
What's A'?
>>65374086
Oh I forgot to mention, include at least 1 nonharmonic tone in the soprano and bass voices in each measure, and keep your melody in the soprano voice for the exercise. Or if you are feeling frisky put a nonharmonic tone in each voice.
>>65374145
A' is A-prime. A' is like A, but slightly different. You can put as many ' as you like to denote "like A, but different"
>>65374145
It's different from A but not so different that it is its own phrase
>>65374145
A variation of A.
Like A, but changed somehow.
>>65346341
Jazz musicians compose by writing standards and songs and shit, then recording it. The rest is other musicians improvising and developing it using jazz's universal syntax.
i.e thelonious monk or miles davis or bird or whoever.
http://solomonsmusic.net/brahmrls.htm
Helpful
>>65374086
Not measure four for the half cadence, but on measure eight instead .
>>65374243
>no atheist has been or ever will be a great composer
>>65374243
atheists btfo
>>65374243
>all that stuff about composing in a trance
>tfw that almost never happens to you
Should I just give up now?
>>65374243
>No atheist has ever been or will be a great composer
#SHOTS FIRED
>>65374339
Are you an atheist by any chance?
https://clyp.it/f2hybsig
Well I'll add something to keep the thread going. This is just a counterpoint exercise I did using a generated cantus firmus. I mostly tried to do one additional voice in each species. I'm just starting to get used to 3 part counterpoint and doing exercises writing with different combinations of species and free voices.
I posted in /prod/ who said it was boring, but I'm really enjoying even being able to write simple stuff like this. Before using counterpoint as the approach I could never figure out how to write stuff that wasn't just block chords and melodies going over them.
>>65374575
I would say it is a little uneventful.
>I could never figure out how to write stuff that wasn't just block chords
This would actually be a good way of creating some interest in the piece. It's a Renaissance technique. Have a couple cadences of approached by contrapuntal lines, and then have some time where the voices move together in block harmonies.
>>65373539
A lot of theory books have these. You get the same books they use in college and they have the same exercises. Also once you learn some of the classical composition forms (counterpoint, canon, fugue) the instructions for composing them are kind of build into the definition of the forms.
>>65374575
Prod is a bunch of fucking heathens who don't know about classical music theory, they do not understand how much work goes into it. End of rant.
>>65374575
I'm sorry anon I will have to dock points for the parallel fifths from bar 2 to 3
>>65366697
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbJ33aN63Fs
>2016
>not impressionisming
>>65374705
Not him, but are you talking about the tenor and alto voices?
Give me a creative composing challenge
>>65374755
No the alto and bass
>>65374667
One of the things I am interested in is that I hear of cadences being done in the middle of the piece, on notes other than the starting/ending note of the mode. All the exercises and instructions I've read just mention cadence in terms of ending the piece, but I understand that it's also used in the middle of the piece, and that there are certain notes in certain modes that are usually used for this?
Is that even important if you're not trying to strictly re-create renaissance music?
>>65374785
I see what you mean now. I'm not going to argue, since it's been a while since I brushed up on my counterpoint, but I'm fairly certain the rule gets a bit relaxed once you get into 3rd species, seeing as the voices aren't moving at the same time, and there are more notes to distinguish the voices and their independence.
>>65374807
>>65374837
Bach would like to have a word with you.
>>65374782
Start your melody on the raised third scale degree (in minor)
>>65374862
JUST
DO IT
>>65374874
Bach used parallel fifths here and there, though he does his best to hide them.
>>65374874
Bach did parallel 5ths and even 7ths.
>>65374910
>>65374906
That's cuz parallelism is cool bruh
What books should I buy? I have note progressions and songs and stuff I know from playing but I'm developing tendonosis
>>65374782
Write a rondo in a minor key
In a locrian mode
>>65374906
>>65374910
But are you Bach?
>>65375074
Ok, Mozart
>>65374816
>One of the things I am interested in is that I hear of cadences being done in the middle of the piece, on notes other than the starting/ending note of the mode
Yes, that is possible.
>All the exercises and instructions I've read just mention cadence in terms of ending the piece, but I understand that it's also used in the middle of the piece, and that there are certain notes in certain modes that are usually used for this?
Also yes. Cadence in it's loosest term is a resting point in the music. Depending on the style and era, cadences can come at more or less regular points in the music, and have certain methods of approach. The more you create phrases and cadences, the more you start to get a feel for them. If you have a cadence built on the note of the mode you're using, it's generally going to sound more stable and restful. If you have your cadence built from the fifth of the mode, called the dominant, then it's going to more likely sound like it needs to go somewhere and continue onward. You can create a good section of music with this. Have one section end on a cadence built on the dominant, then repeat it and instead end it on the tonic.
>Is that even important if you're not trying to strictly re-create renaissance music?
Not really.
>>65375074
Yes.
>>65374816
For many, cadences are at the end of each phrase, for example in Mary had a little lamb, at the end of the first phrase is a half cadence ending on the dominant.
There are also other cadences commonly employed in the middle such as the deceptive cadence, which is from I-iii or IV, and it sounds like a normal cadence due to the commonality in notes with the tonic, but it leaves room for you to jump back into the piece.
The infographic at the top of the thread is very detailed about the kinds.
The cadence you hear at the end of the piece is a perfect authentic cadence which is a V7-I where you triple the root note in the I chord to create a sense of finality.
>>65375641
>deceptive cadence, which is from I-iii or IV
That is wrong. A deceptive cadence is either V-vi or V-VI if you're in minor. The iii chord is almost never employed outside of sequences.
>>65368216
listen to music and just note what they do.
Is there any particular name for the bII - I (or bII - i) progression/cadence? Or bvii - i (in A minor, GBbD - ACE, for example). This sort of thing, using the flat second as a leading tone instead of the raised seventh, seems to appear often in more modern music, especially in neo-Romanticism.
>>65358808
Thats part of the study of orchestration. You learn what instruments will sound like at certain registers and dynamics. Its something you never really stop learning throughout your life, and it comes with practice (the practice of writing a piece, hearing it rehearsed and performed, and then internalizing the sounds the instruments made throughout your score)
You can import pretty high quality instrument libraries into notation programs like sibelius, but you'll never get as polished a piece as if you're using a proper DAW. I often mock up in a DAW, and then export to notation software if I need a piece performed, that way I'm writing with instruments that sound very close to real life.
>>65364480
Creativity and Knowledge are separate. Knowledge allows your creativity more options, other than "this sounds good"
>>65367423
College/University best way to get a full education on composition, music theory, history, et al.
>>65374028
nothing wrong with it. You're writing music.
If you want something to be played by a real pianist its best to at least think about the kind of intervals they can play comfortably, so that when/if you go to score it out its not unplayable.
>>65374313
Bartok, Ravel, Delius, Janacek, Katchaturian, Ligeti, PMD, Prokofiev, Rimsky-Korsakov, Saint-Saëns, Shostakovich, Tippett, Varese, Xenakis, Busoni, Percy Grainger. Just to name a few.
>>65374782
Write a 20 minute string quartet in the classical style.
Write a 4 part fugue in the baroque style for harpsichord or piano. Must be at least 3 minutes.
>>65374339
its basically like when you improvise to a rhythm and you just feeling those notes
I though everyone's done that
Have a shitty fugato
vocaroo.com/i/s1olOsXGXRs7
>>65377423
Woops
vocaroo.com/i/s10lOsXGXRs7
>>65377441
make a better subject. The subject has to be almost an entire world, that generates the material for the rest of the piece.
Spend a LOT of time writing a really good subject, and the rest will flow from there.
There's some good resources on fugue writing out there.
This site for example, looks at bach's art of fugue, complete with audio examples, and breaks down each section. Very cool site!
https://www.teoria.com/en/articles/kdf/
Click on "Contrapunctus I" to get started
I've been obsessed with fugues over the last year or so. Pretty much exclusively write fugues:
https://soundcloud.com/psllbof
Some are more successful than others, but you can see that the subject is the most important part. If you have a good subject that outlines a chord progression, the rest of the piece will follow.
Dont forget fugue writing and counterpoint in general writing is all about each voice being able to stand on its own melodically. Each part should be able to be recognized even while other parts are playing. They should complement each other rhythmically, so if one melody has a break, another melody fills that break.
Fugues are great fun, keep at it!
Does a good melody sound good on any instrument?
I'm wondering because I tried to remake an old song which seemed to sounded nice with one synth but lost all it's energy with another.
I'm thinking if this might be a way to check if a melody is good
I normally do /prod/ stuff but for some reason felt like trying something new today for some reason. Anything worthwhile in here?
https://clyp.it/zclsmafa
>>65377531
One of the better fugues I've heard, by Fauré, has probably the least interesting subject I've ever heard.
>>65377531
When someone posts a fugue, have you ever not suggested to write a better subject?
>>65377531
Subject and counter subject in that fugue are way too long and the 2nd voice takes forever to answer.
I don't like it.
It's shit.
>>65377812
Thats usually the most important part of the fugue! if the subject isn't sensational, the rest of the fugue may have trouble.
>>65377766
Which fugue did you mean? I just listened to his Fugue in Em Op. 84 No. 6, and while its subject wasn't that great, neither was the rest of the fugue...
