>>64596516
pretty impossible if you're not a child that honestly believes there is valor in taste
idk i just never feel like listening to it
valid if you ask me
THE
>>64596516
It's too happy
>>64596516
they didnt bring anything new to the table and they are massively overrated. TVU and Beach Boys were way better
Their ditties are uninteresting to my ears
>>64596516
I dont like the way their music sounds.
The fact that so many books still name the Beatles as "the greatest or most significant or most influential" rock band ever only tells you how far rock music still is from becoming a serious art. Jazz critics have long recognized that the greatest jazz musicians of all times are Duke Ellington and John Coltrane, who were not the most famous or richest or best sellers of their times, let alone of all times. Classical critics rank the highly controversial Beethoven over classical musicians who were highly popular in courts around Europe. Rock critics are still blinded by commercial success. The Beatles sold more than anyone else (not true, by the way), therefore they must have been the greatest. Jazz critics grow up listening to a lot of jazz music of the past, classical critics grow up listening to a lot of classical music of the past. Rock critics are often totally ignorant of the rock music of the past, they barely know the best sellers. No wonder they will think that the Beatles did anything worthy of being saved.
In a sense, the Beatles are emblematic of the status of rock criticism as a whole: too much attention paid to commercial phenomena (be it grunge or U2) and too little to the merits of real musicians. If somebody composes the most divine music but no major label picks him up and sells him around the world, a lot of rock critics will ignore him. If a major label picks up a musician who is as stereotyped as can be but launches her or him worldwide, your average critic will waste rivers of ink on her or him. This is the sad status of rock criticism: rock critics are basically publicists working for major labels, distributors and record stores. They simply highlight what product the music business wants to make money from.
>>64596603
>happiness is bad
>>64596603
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usNsCeOV4GM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82I12bKofdg
They have plenty of meloncholy/ sad songs
>>64596684
Get this biased copy pasta away from my thread. Beatles aren't popular for being the "Most famous or richest", they combined classical music with pop, wrote some of the best music of all time gaining mass critical acclaim, and invented tons of new recording techniques like tape delay and double tracked vocals which are used in almost every single song today. They're cited by most musicians and critics as the greatest, most creative, most pioneering musical act of all time.
>>64596516
They left too many mistakes in their recordings. I prefer my music to be perfectly played.
>>64596792
>tape delay
Pierre Schaefer
>double tracked vocals
The engineers at Abbey Road, not the band
>They're cited by most musicians and critics as the greatest, most creative, most pioneering musical act of all time
Did you even read the Scaruffi blurb? That's his whole point. Rock criticism confuses commercial success with whatever positive quality you want to attach to them.
>>64596849
>Pierre Schaefer
>popular music
>>64596866
Your point? The Beatles did not invented it.
>>64596849
>Did you even read the Scaruffi blurb?
https://factorysunburst.wordpress.com/2014/08/31/piero-scaruffi-and-truth/
>>64596866
>popular
You just did it again.
>>64596877
Obviously but invention is meaningless without popularization
>>64596883
Who's this faggot and why are you linking him?
>>64596516
I just can't listen to their music now that I know John Lennon killed a man and was abusive to women.
>>64596897
>claim they invented said technique
>is proven wrong
>changes the goalposts
Average Beatles fanatic
>>64596849
Scaruffi is a pedophile, and the reason he's wrong, is because there was no good rock before the Beatles. There was rock n roll. But not rock. Following his train of logic, that asserts that Elvis Presley or Chuck Berry would be the greatest rock musician of all time, which we all know to be not true.
>>64596937
I didn't claim it I'm only responding to the response
>>64596866
>>64596897
>>64596947
Holy fucking retardation
>>64596916
You read it? It's a fairly comprehensive riposte to Scaruffi's essay.
>>64596706
I guess I can't really describe what I dislike about the Beatles. It's just really boring to me. Nothing about it is really unique to the Beatles. I can get better versions of everything they did elsewhere. It isn't that there's something about the music I dislike, there's just nothing that I particularly like enough to listen to it voluntarily.
>>64596941
>i'm going to bring up something that doesn't even matter
>also its just a meme derived from this rant about gay marriage
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/usa08.html#usa1108c
You might as well say McCartney's a pedo because of the line "She was seventeen, if you know what i mean"
>>64596937
>>64596849
Wasn't even me faggot. And no, the Beatles did invent that shit, I stand by it.
"Automatic double-tracking or artificial double-tracking (ADT) is an analogue recording technique designed to enhance the sound of voices or instruments during the recording process... The technique was originally developed in 1966 by engineers at Abbey Road Studios in London[1] at the request of The Beatles."
They were using sampling earlier than probably anybody else
"The Beatles first used samples of other music on "Yellow Submarine", the samples being added on 1 June 1966"
>>64596990
Legal in Texas
>>64596999
The "who invented what" is a boring conversation anyway
>>64596706
>>64596985
Actually, I should clarify that I don't want sad or melancholy music either, I just want something innovative and interesting. Emotions aren't what cause me to play a certain record. Music should be interesting from an objective perspective regardless of emotion, because most of the time I'm listening to music I'm not feeling any emotion, I just want something that sounds cool. The only Beatles track I know of that sounds really cool and unique is Wild Honey Pie, but the rest are all very conventional songs. They do nothing interesting compositionally or sonically.
>>64596916
Some 80 year old, child molester, version of Anthony Fantano
>>64597024
Wut
>>64597024
worst post itt so far
>>64597052
>>64597053
OP asked for valid points, I gave valid points, now people are upset. I just can't win.
>>64597024
autistic AND clueless
>>64596999
I'm pretty sure they didn't came up with sampling lmao and you dropped the tape delay argument, right? So well, the Beatles - or, to be precise, George Martin and the Abbey Road Studios - came up with ADT. I mean, they have to be the most revolutionary popular act of all time for coming up with that, am I right?
>>64596985
I felt this way for a while. But after I get told they're GOAT time and time and time again, indifference turns to frustration and I end up hating them. Same thing with certain sports fans: Stans can ruin an artist
>>64596999
AMMMusic was released in 67 but recorded in '66, way before Yellow Submarine. Many of Stockhausen's compositions also incorporated sampling of music, and lets not forget that musique concrete, tape music and sound collages existed way before the Beatles
>>64597093
Both incorrect
>>64597106
Well it's a good thing that I don't pay attention to other people's opinions, then
>>64596589
FACT
>>64597152
>popular music
>>64597098
Ok so they didn't invent Tape Delay, I must have gotten confused. You got me. But George Martin definitely counts as part of the Beatles. He's called the fifth fucking beatle dude.
>>64597207
AMMMusic counts as popular music, retard. Stop moving the goalposts
>>64597207
Not being popular means they didn't exist ? Is this what Beatlefags actually believe ?
>>64597098
>>64597211
And he only invented it at John Lennon's request because he quote "hated the sound of his clean voice"
>>64597207
That's exactly what Scaruffi's talking about, anon. You're saying 'it doesn't count because it didn't sell loads!'
>>64597217
How does it
>>64597222
Who said that
>>64597249
No I'm not
>>64597222
So you dislike their music, let me get this straight. Not because you've actually listened to their music. But because you hate the fanbase of the band you've never listened to.
>>64597258
Released in an album format, not on sheet music, and was meant to be bought by consumers as a form of entertainment. It's popular music alright
>>64597258
>Who said that
I think you did, unless I was interpreting your very ambiguous post incorrectly. If that's the case, then provide a more accurate interpretation.
>>64597259
Who said that
>>64596792
>classical music with pop
>>64597217
Also Yellow Submarine was recorded about a month before in May and Tomorrow Never Knows was the first track done for Revolver, in April, which uses sampling and tape speed manipulation and loops and a whole bunch of shit.
>>64597275
Yeah I'll have whatever this guy's having. Released on an album makes it pop music? Are you high right now?
>>64597280
>I think you did, unless I was interpreting your very ambiguous post incorrectly. If that's the case, then provide a more accurate interpretation.
Nobody is saying they don't exist. How's that for ambiguity?
OP here. Ok. So The Beatles may not have invented every technique, but they invented and experimented with a lot of shit. They definitely invented double tracking vocals, which is fucking huge by the way because now every single singer does that. They were the first band to put backwards records in songs. First band to incorporate indian music into pop music. Basically brought Classical music back from the grave. The list goes on
>>64597285
You know nothing about the Beatles if you disagree with this. Strawberry Fields Forever, A Day in the Life, Yesterday, and pretty much 99.9% of their other songs include an entire fucking orchestra.
>>64597306
Please explain what you meant by the following post : >>64597207.
>>64596956
Eh, not nearly as comprehensive as I would have liked. Starts well, but when it gets to the actual question of how innovative they were in the field of pop it badically says 'Velvets were later and bad' and ignores all the other bands.
>>64597352
I was drawing a distinction between the realms of popular and non-popular music. Beatles are popular, AMMMusic, Stockhausen, etc. are not.
>>64597289
AMMMusic's sessions were done early 66 and the cut and culled. You were saying?
You said popular music. Not pop music.
Anything in a non-written non-spoken format that is released as an album is a form of popular music, whether you like it or not
>>64597346
>an entire fucking orchestra
>classical music
>>64597315
Didn't they also "discover" guitar feedback in "I Feel Fine"?
>>64597385
But what is the point of that distinction ? I don't see how it relates to the discussion at all.
>>64597405
Popular music = "pop music". There is no distinction to be made, you're just insane.
>>64597315
>Basically brought Classical music back from the grave
>>64597346
So anything with an orchestra now equates art music?
Jesus you're retarded.
>>64597436
HAHAHAHAHHAHA HOLY FUCKIGN SHIT
THIS CAN'T BE SERIOUS
>>64597407
Baroque Harpischord solos and Ancient chord progressions. Happy now
>>64597366
He has another piece on the contemporary pop landscape of the 50's and 90's which is p. good https://factorysunburst.wordpress.com/2013/06/17/the-company-they-kept-the-beatles-recordings-in-context-1/
>>64597428
Because non-popular music never reaches anyone outside of a tiny elite few, especially if we're talking half a century ago, and innovations that exist within an actual marketplace and in the broadest sections of society function and are consumed very differently.
I like them.
I find the stylistic shifts on some of their most critically acclaimed albums annoying.
The song writing quality, as even fans will note, is all over the map since the members wrote songs individually and then "brought it to the band", and they didn't all have their peak moments at the same time, so there isn't a single album without some bumps here and there.
Some of the lyrics are fucking terrible. If you stick to their No. 1s it's all pretty good, Yellow Submarine aside, but their album cuts have some truly cringe moments.
Some of their psychedelia seems childish and one dimensional compared to what's come after it, even if they are pioneers.
>>64597457
>ancient chord progressions
We are officially arguing with a retard who likely just came here from reddit
>>64597407
Listen to In My Life. The harpsichord solo is pretty reminiscent of classical era stuff, though the actual terminology escapes me right now.
>>64597457
No. The Beatles couldn't have made Baroque harpsichord compositions or ancient chord progressions because they made music long after the Baroque and ancient eras were over.
>>64597448
>Anything in a non-written non-spoken format that is released as an album is a form of popular music
I'd like to draw attention to this again so everyone can see HOW RIDICULOUS YOU ARE
>>64597462
>Because non-popular music never reaches anyone outside of a tiny elite few, especially if we're talking half a century ago, and innovations that exist within an actual marketplace and in the broadest sections of society function and are consumed very differently.
I still don't see what that has to do with the discussion.
>>64597448
>>64597445
>>64597407
Here's a Composer ranting for an hour about how much the Beatles used and how they "saved" classical music.
>>64597482
See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_music
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_music
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_music
And then go back to /r/music
>>64597493
Prove you're a composer
>>64597493
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQS91wVdvYc
>>64597492
Why not?
>>64597495
Talk to me you fucking faggot
>>64597493
>>64597506
He's talking about Leonard Bernstein who was a huge Beatles fan and named them the premier composers of the 20th century, YouTube it
>>64597493
>>64597507
wew I saw this """documentary"""" once, the guy is literally bonkers
he claims the beatles brought tonal music back from the grave lmfao
>>64597524
>Why not?
Wasn't the discussion about who invented tape delay and sampling ?
>>64597524
I just did. Read those articles, learn and understand how fucking retarded your argument and knowledge is, then fuck off to reddit
>>64597507
>>64597524
Oh, or not. That's good too. I like Bernstein's take more because it was recorded right during the Summer of Love era and is a fun time capsule of that exact period, rather than a look-back.
>>64597538
You did nothing but claim that anything recorded onto vinyl is popular music and then throw a bunch of wikipedia links around.
>>64597534
Ok, so my source is an actual composer, and yours is.. A pedophile who's name sounds like something you clean a bathroom floor with?
>>64597536
I was trying to add some nuance, my bad.
>>64597561
Correct.
What's wrong, are your tiny little perceptions of music now being broken? I bet you read Robert Christgau's reviews you faggot
>>64597577
So you had no point, then ?
>>64597585
Christgau from the mid 70s to mid 80s is biblical and you will find nothing even approaching it. Everything else is gash.
>>64597596
see>>64597462
My point is that innovations in music and innovations in popular music are two separate entities that should both be made distinct from one another.
>>64597596
All he has are those dubs
>>64597621
Yep this is reddit alright
>>64597462
Intredasting. But I meant more when their stuff got innovative, and their competition in that 'innovative' bracket- Zappa, Beach Boys etc.
>>64597645
I don't think anyone considers that an actual bracket outside of the nerds on /mu/ so you're probably not going to find any real writing on it, sorry.
>>64597633
His P&J '82 commentary >>> the collective output of your life
>>64597621
>My point is that innovations in music and innovations in popular music are two separate entities that should both be made distinct from one another.
Oh, so you're just an idiot. That clarifies everything, thanks.
>>64597710
If that makes it easier for you to deal with, I suppose.
>>64597698
Go away reddit, you can't even differentiate between pop music and popular music
>>64597746
You're a cliche
For anyone here who thinks the Beatles weren't innovative enough
"Making innovative use of technology while expanding the possibilities of recorded music, the Beatles urged experimentation by Martin and his recording engineers. Seeking ways to put chance occurrences to creative use, accidental guitar feedback, a resonating glass bottle, a tape loaded the wrong way round so that it played backwards – any of these might be incorporated into their music. Their desire to create new sounds on every new recording, combined with Martin's arranging abilities and the studio expertise of EMI staff engineers Norman Smith, Ken Townsend and Geoff Emerick, all contributed significantly to their records from Rubber Soul and, especially, Revolver onwards. Along with innovative studio techniques such as sound effects, unconventional microphone placements, tape loops, double tracking and vari-speed recording, the Beatles augmented their songs with instruments that were unconventional in rock music at the time. These included string and brass ensembles as well as Indian instruments such as the sitar in "Norwegian Wood" and the swarmandal in "Strawberry Fields Forever".[353] They also used early electronic instruments such as the Mellotron, with which McCartney supplied the flute voices on the "Strawberry Fields Forever" intro, and the clavioline, an electronic keyboard that created the unusual oboe-like sound on "Baby, You're a Rich Man".
>>64597806
But you know. AMMMusic POSSIBLY experimented with Delay before them, so they're shit.
>>64597698
>nobody talks about how innovative Revolver was in comparison to other releases of the time
If that's true then it's sad. But I'm pretty certain it's not true.
>>64597842
Who are you quoting? Nowhere did I say it wasn't spoken of whatsoever, I said there was no real long-form writing on the subject, which is pretty true. If you want a really detailed account of the recording of Revolver and all the boundaries it broke through for The Beatles and the rest of popular music I'd recommend it's section in Ian MacDonald's "Revolution in the Head". It's completely without peer.
>>64597765
You're a pathetic mess who thinks he can argue despite being incredibly naive
Drink some bleach
>>64597881
You said people weren't interested in the subject outside of /mu/, anon. It's right here: >>64597698
>>64597932
Well, truthfully, it's not ABOUT that subject as it's not pitting Revolver against Freak Out! or Pet Sounds or any other record from that era in the sense people do on here, it's just a meticulous account of the writing and recording of that album that would prove invaluable to anyone wishing to get clued up on it.
>>64597887
AMAZING post dude, I could read it for hours
>>64597955
I getcha. I know what you mean about 'who wins in an innovation fight?'-style discussions, but I'd still be very surprised if no academics have actually tackled the question 'how innovative were the Beatles?' seriously.
>>64598026
I'd be surprised if anyone who read Revolution in the Head wouldn't come away with a pretty well-informed perspective on their innovation, I'd say go check that one out. It focuses on The Beatles but is also just about the greatest work of non-fiction on rock music out there. Devin Mckinney's Magic Circles: The Beatles in Dream and History is good too. Alan F. Moore has a book-length study on Sgt. Pepper's in the Cambridge Music Handbooks series which is like an academic 33 1/3.
>>64598098
Cool, thanks.
>>64597827
Do you even know what you're arguing against? AMMMusic is the name of an album you retard
>>64598024
It's not like yours was much better, imbecile.
You fufill the stereotype of a retarded Beatles fan who is absolutely stubborn and resolute in his beliefs that the Beatles (TM) are truly the most innovative and groundbreaking band of all time. Surely nothing they did preceeded them, except for the entirety of modern art music and avant-garde popular music.
Try arguing when you've gained some musical knowledge, fool
>>64597507
>melodies that perhaps only Mozart can match in Western history
just lol. stopped watching there. they were fantastic melody writers but come on
>>64596516
>explain why
Nobody can because like and dislike of music is non-cognitive.
Also, people are arguing about their purported innovations (or not). Innovations don't determine musical quality.
As for my personal opinion, I think that the Beatles were slightly better than average, were mostly borecore jangle pop, and that about 30 bands were better than them in the time period from 1966 to 1969.
>>64598125
Well if it was any good maybe I would've heard about it and known that
>>64597562
he's just absolutely wrong on all counts. the beatles didn't make any significant advancements in harmony or tonality. what they did make advancements in were inventive progressions and modulations, although honestly brian wilson was doing that earlier/at the same time and they clearly took influence from him. but it went both ways i guess
>>64598278
Umm yeah, I'd say your correct in your assessment that the Beatles didn't invent music. That doesn't mean they're shit.
>>64598302
no i like the beatles a lot. i wasn't the guy you replied to. but that documentary is kinda weird and inaccurate. it's also annoying how much he plays and sings throughout
>>64598164
I give this post a D-
>>64598184
jingle jangle jongle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz0zVGKf76o
>>64598277
>it's a "if it's so good why don't i know it" post
Fuck off reddit
>>64598478
Fuck off Christgau
>>64598510
y so angwy >:(
>>64598545
Go away
>>64598576
Tripping means you probably spend too long here anyway, could do u some good, get in shape, a social life, laid, etc.
>>64598648
>err... ummm.... tripcode!
Good post
>>64598657
Good life
>>64598674
>errr... um... you're life a shit lol
Please contribute to arguing for or against the Beatles' studio techniques being original or do not post at all
>>64598657
He's right though, desu. You should get over your social insecurities, get in shape and get some focus in your life. tripcoding on /mu/ with your armchair music degree is not the way to salvation.
>>64598817
See >>64598694
I'm afraid my social life is well and fine, I interact with many people every day. The tripcode is not for attention, if it was it would have a name (and it did at one point but it no longer does).
I can't help it if I know a lot about the thing that feeds me.
>>64598836
Just so you know, nobody is going to believe that
>>64598836
You also don't know a lot about music, you just think you do.
>>64598906
Just so you know, nobody cares about what you have to say, or what I have to say too for the matter
Instead of resorting to weak and poorly thoughout ad hominem why not try contributing to the discussion instead?
>>64598932
I know a lot more than you average person. I also likely know a lot more about it than you, considering you haven't said a single thing relating to music so far
>>64598934
>weak and poorly thoughout ad hominem
>"go back to lebbit!"
>"I bet you like CHRISTGAU!"
>>64598955
I'm in the first ten posts here, dummy. I was in this thread before you because your trip gave you away.
>>64596883
How is it that people STILL think Sister Ray is a one-chord song?
>>64598961
Well obviously only a redditor would assume that something has to be popular to be good.
And people with that logic generally enjoy reading Christgau's work so it wasn't too far off of an assumption.
All those statements were made long after I contributed to the discussion and was sick of his consistent stubbornness either way .
>>64598973
Just so you know, nobody is going to believe that.
>>64598991
>rationalising his own ad-homs
You haven't even read any Christgau outside of him shitting on albums you like, which is an immature reason to dislike any writer, but moving on, and the assumption that something has to be popular to be good has not been made once in this thread.
>long after I contributed to the discussion
Was that when you announced your presence with "Holy fucking retardation xD"? Quality posting, dude. Tell me more.
>>64599027
I have read many of Christgaus works and I can safely say they are all awful.
See >>64598277
for the "popular = good" assumption
My contributions are all here
>>64597152
>>64597217
>>64597275
>>64597405
>>64597448
>>64597470
>>64597495
>>64597538
>>64597585
>>64597633
>>64597746
>>64597887
>>64598125
>>64598164
But I assumed you knew them because of the tripcode.
You aren't actually even trying are you?
This bait is pretty weak and it's still not contributing to the discussion. Have a last (You) before I go
>>64599071
I mean I threw his seminal Paz & Jopp essay from 1982 in which Xgau identifies the oncoming rush of "indie rock" in the late 80's and early 90's years before anyone else and you didn't show me anything to suggest that you knew what I was going on about. I don't think you've read anything and are trying to cover your arse.
Also, you were telling way more people to gb2reddit than just that one poster.
>>64599100
Yawn
Please, try with some better bait because you really aren't bothering at all. I have indeed read his Pazz and Jop nonsense and while it does sort of predict what would come later it still is horribly written and borderline impossible to comprehend.
And that was just one idiotic shitposter.
Try again?
>>64599200
Weren't you just leaving?
>>64599071
You haven't said anything this entire time except that you hate the Beatles because they're popular. Have a good night and a good life with your shit pleb music taste and the ability to never be able to appreciate the best rock music ever written.
>>64599208
Nah, just wanted to give you one more (You)
>>64599257
I didn't even say I disliked the Beatles though.
>>64599294
You literally said you were posting and then going dude
>>64599309
I was being generous and I still am because my (You) paycheck just came in and I've got lots of (You)s to spend
>>64599361
You tried to play aloof and pretend like you had a life outside of this or any real obligations that would take you away from the computer, but you couldn't even keep it up for five minutes, could you?
>>64599386
I'm on my phone in the middle of keyboard class. You?
>>64599455
cringe
>>64599482
Good post
Have a (You)
>tfw everyone in this thread has got it all wrong about scaruffi
>>64597024
you're fucking retarded
>>64596849
>The engineers at Abbey Road, not the band
not really true
adt was based on lennon's practice of double tracking his vox
he asked them if there was a way to automate it and they came up with adt for him so he could just record once
but he'd been doubletracking his vox for years before that
>>64597098
>or, to be precise, George Martin and the Abbey Road Studios - came up with ADT.
ken townsend invented adt not george
george was never much of an engineer tbf
