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Is "harsh noise" music? How do you judge an album where the composition is free from any traditional music scheme (at least it's what it seems)? Anyway, what are your favorite albums from the genre? Have any recs for a noise virgin who enjoys ambient/drone music (Tim Hecker is one of my faves)?
All music can be described objectively, it is the choice of the listener as to what those descriptions mean in relation to their taste. There is no objective standard for judging music.
Harsh noise, or noise music by extension, is an exploration of timbre. People listen to it for the same reason people get massages, it's music you feel rather than hear.
>>64078888
>harmony
No
>connosance
Not exactly
Calling it music would be a stretch, but that doesn't make it any less valuable. What's wrong with just calling it Noise?
>>64079180
All it does is build a fence between music that is conventional, and music that pushes boundaries. It's an incentive for people to write off anything they don't like, based off of geocentric judgements placed in their brain.
Calling music anything less than "all sound" is limiting the medium.
>>64078888
>Is "harsh noise" music?
This is a topic that only has relevance to /mu/, Reddit and the Youtube comments section at this point. Asking this question(or even thinking the answer matters or can be answered with a definitive "yes" or "no") is a great way to expose yourself as a clueless goon with no education on 20th century art history.
Read a book, homie.
>>64079217
Sounds like you've been reading too much of John Cage's meanderings.
If someone went on stage during a poetry reading and started making a bunch of squealing and grunting noises, you wouldn't call it poetry.
Again, I'm not saying that noise (explorations of sound) is less artisticly valid, but let's call a spade a spade, son
>>64079287
Actually it was made just to create a debate. I just seeked some points of view on the question. There's people out there who don't consider Pollock's works art. I just want to know why.
>>64079319
Yes I would lol. Everyone thinks that they've got me, asking me if I would call the sounds of 9/11 music. The answer is yes.
Music is sonic art in time. Any conceivable sound has the potential to be music, therefore all sound is music.
>>64079394
Don't make a habit out of responding to condescending, try-hard posts, anon... it only encourages them.
Any time a post ends in "read a book" or "you just don't know music history, bro", it doesn't deserve a response.
>>64079414
>music is sonic art in time
Whoooh, maaan. Merriam Webster would like a word.
>all sound is music
Gee, you're just so open-minded, anon. I've been considering making an album of farts, and you've just inspired me to finally go through with it. I'll make sure to post it on /mu/ when I'm finished.
>>64079414
Arranged sound of any variety is music. But not all sound is music, thats not how it works.
Arranged grunts and squeaks is poetry. But grunts and squeaks are just grunts and squeaks.
>>64079552
People misinterpret my views a lot, when I say that all sound is music, I don't say that all sound is of quality. It's all subjective preferences that decide that. Blood on the dance floor fits into conventional definitions of music, but many people would say that band is less than good. Go and make your fart piece, it's still music. I'll probably find it boring though.
>>64079610
So if a sparrow landed on a piano and accidentally played "Mary had a little lamb", it wouldn't be music? If the sound of the wind across a cave somehow sounded exactly like a katy perry single, that wouldn't be music? It isn't arranged, so therefore it is just random tones and not music.
There is no difference between arranged sound and unarranged sound. The final product is the same.
I recently bought this one on vinyl:
http://mikeshiflet.bandcamp.com/album/merciless
Really enjoyed the B side. The end remembers me of Helmut Lachemans Pression.
>>64079721
>people misinterpret my views a lot
In flaky artfag circles, your views are relatively commonplace, anon. And it gets to a point where you attempt to stretch the definition of music so far that it simply breaks and becomes something else.
>there is no difference between arranged sound and unarranged sound
There is when it doesn't involve an extraordinary circumstance involving an animal or the wind playing Bach. But something tells me you'll have another abstract bit of nonsense to refute this.
>>64079904
What is the difference between intentionally smashing a wine glass as part of a musical piece, and a wine glass falling off a high counter?
>>64080131
In and of themselves, I wouldn't call either music. Now if you arranged the breaking of the glass to incorporate connosance/dissonance relationships, then you'd be on your way to making some music.
See, the thing is, I'm actually very interested in sound-art/noise/sound-exploration or whatever other non-music term you can conjure; however, I'm not going to spin some pretentious diatribe about how "anything can be whatever I want it to be, maaan"
I have to ask: do you think Bruce Jenner is a woman?
>>64080330
There is no reason not to call either music. It doesn't hurt you or anyone else, and it forwards the medium to new and unexplored territories. And defining music is much harder than leaving it undefined, what you have done is pretty much call all beat driven music noise, as it does not use elements of consonance and dissonance. Someone playing drums isn't music.
>do you think Bruce Jenner is a woman?
This isn't relevant.
>>64079217
>>64079721
I agree with you anon
>>64080330
Until that last line I would've had a discussion with you but now you just look like b8
>>64080470
>all beat driven music is noise
No, it's rhythm. And if rhythm is the only thing that's utilized, depending on the use, I think calling it music would be a stretch -- there is essentially a sub-division for music of pure percussion. For the record, I'm even a drummer.
Anyway, we can quibble over semantics all day, but "music" is not a term that someone pulled out of their ass.
>this is not relevant
Perhaps you're just unable to understand it.
What defines a man... what defines a woman. You can't simply twist the definitions to suit your proclivities.
>>64080472
>until that last line, I would've had a discussion with you
How unfortunate. I'm sure it would have been utterly fascinating
>>64080723
>he thinks there are objective facts and that we don't live an absurd existence
w e w
>>64080784
Hey, regarding specificity of language (or a lack thereof) if you want to live in a schizophrenic clusterfuck of ambiguity, by all means.
In another setting, I'd be happy to get into a dialectical debate with you over philosophical notions of truth; nevertheless, your little greentext implication is completely unfounded.
I never liked that the term "noise" when describing the music which emerged from the industrial music scenes. I believe the publiciations which documented the music gave it tons of misunderstandings. I understand the need for journalism but noise to me always seems to bare negative connotations. For me, it's a form of electro-acoustic music or sound art. It's a very extreme music, not in a metal way of describing things but that it boils down purest cores of what music can be. Some impose an idea of anti-music but to me, good noise is when an artist can refine their sound. It takes a tremendous amount of talent to develop a unique sound of yours in an extremely loose and abstract way. It's easy to make for the most part but difficult to make it engaging. A lot of noise is boring to me but there is some which are genuinely beautiful. Violent colors, you could say. There's some kind of beauty to the whole self-inventive aspect of it all.
>>64078888
Wow, this might have been the most interesting thread that happened to /my/ in several weeks. Thanks, quints OP
>>64078888
i think it is, just because its using sound.
some time ago, i was in an introductory class and we started reading the book. The first thing was the definition of music ( i understand that a definition can change depending on the author) was: "the art of sound". and i thought it was right
>>64081613
other thing i have thought is that all of the arts have a defining "element".
In film is the movement of the picture, in photography is the static image, in music is the sound.
what im trying to say is that those elemnts have to be there otherwise it would not be the respective form of art.
It doesnt matter if a piece of music does not have lyrics , or a chorus , or a melody, or is not produced by an instrument, because those elements are not what makes it music.
im not great at explaining myself but ehh
>>64081875
I think you're approaching this quandary a bit backwards.
Photographs are a bi-product of 3d images
Films are a bi-product of 3d images+movement
Music is a bi-product of sound
3d images=/=pictures
The universe=/=films
Sound=/=music
>>64082079
hmm i kinda understand your argument
when you say 3d images, do you mean like real life objects and stuff?
i have a question though, what makes something be music then if its not sound itself
>>64082284
>do you mean real-life objects
Correct
>what makes something music if not sound?
My point is that sound, in and of itself, is not music. Sound is the primary element that music is crafted from, but there are certain "rules" (for lack of a better word) that must be adhered to. These rules can be bent, but if you're not at least applying the organization of melodic tones, then I'd venture to say it's something else.
I think some people just need to get over the negetive connotation of "Noise", or start referring to it as Sound-art.
>>64082676
i understand what you are saying, but unfortunately i cannot agree.
I think that noise, drone , ambient and other stuff should definitely be called music.
also i dont agree with what you said about melodic tones, to me music is muuuuuch much more than just a melody.
what i tend to look for in the music that i hear is for it to have a certain kind of "texture", thats why i like noise, because of the abrasiveness it offers.
a q uestion, when you listen to music what are you looking for, is it melodies, lyrics, vocals, textures, structure??
>>64083005
>drone, ambient, and other stuff
I've heard lots of drone and ambient that would qualify as music, so maybe there's some miscommunication here
When I'm listening to music, I'm looking for a certain application of melody, rhythm, and texture that suits my tastes. As for lyrics, I mostly listen to instrumental music (including electronic music). When I'm listening to Sound-Art, I look for interesting sounds, techniques, and the psycho-acoustic effects. I'm able to separate the two and still enjoy them both.
>>64083328
well i guess well have to disagree for the most part
but anyway
recommend me some of that ambient and drone stuff that you like
>>64083494
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MaSi7Gut7xM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hlizdOqSbcM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2pk0w891N-0
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ObQTRjEP4mM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d81G9W8pEno
It's anti-music.
>>64083494
Here are a couple more essentials I just thought of...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5tXLef81Xgg
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7mCVxrq6kAg
>>64083869
ill listen to them
thanks anon
>>64079319
>>64079552
>>64079904
>>64080723
I feel like the same one or two people make it their personal mission to get ass blasted whenever noise music is mentioned on /mu/.
Why does it matter so much? Did Merzbow fuck your wife or something?
>>64078888
I liked a couple of the recs posted so far but they seem more ambient than harsh noise to me.
Rec'ing emptyset
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8jCafFY-E4
>>64080330
>>64080723
>trying to be right wing on /mu/
>>64083618
Not the guy you're replying to but I love Deathprod and have been meaning to get into Stars of the Lid and Brian Eno
>>64086217
I really like Emptyset. I didn't think he was considered noise though. Or are you just rec'ing it on an unrelated note?
>>64086691
Hmm I thought emptyset were noise? Or at least noise related. What would you consider it, experimental drone?
>>64087234
Abstract/Drone/Experimental/IDM/Ambient
They vary but those are typically what I imagined they were. I haven't finished listening to all their stuff to be honest though.
>>64087404
Abstract seems to fit them best for sure, you're right. I think some of the ones like Signal I are borderline noise though.
>>64078888
>Have any recs for a noise virgin who enjoys ambient/drone music
Well since nobody else is reccing, I guess I might as well:
Merzbow - Dharma
Merzbow - Venereology
Merzbow - Hybrid Noisebloom
Merzbow - Electric Salad
Prurient - The History of Aids
C.C.C.C. - Rocket Shrine
Kazumoto Endo - While You Were Out
Incapacitants - Eat! Meat!! Manifesto!!!
Hanatarash - Hanatarashi
>>64087546
I'm still not sure I'd consider that noise. More like dark ambient or something. But I could see why you'd say that though.
