Why is this album so much better than everything else he's done? It feels like I'm listening to an entirely different band.
>>63878241
Because Trent.
>>63878241
Because he was on a massive power trip and doped out of his mind when he made this album, as the title suggests.
He was starting to deal with the effects of success in a really weird and meta-level way. keep in mind that his shtick up until then was to parody the concept of "role models for children" and he was involuntarily turning into a role model of his own, his fanbase was getting big enough for him to be interviewed on TV, he had groupies suck his dick and stalk him, and all that shit scared him. A bunch of his fans were dumb teenagers who completely misunderstood his gimmick and idolized him for no good reason, and tried imitating him instead of doing their own shit. Obviously that made him feel objectified and scared.
At the same time he was reading up on occult shit, which inspired him a lot, to the point where he had a prophetic dream about the end of the world, becoming a messiah, selling out and getting killed. So he tried to explore those themes in his next album and make its recording process a kind of ego death ritual that would free him from his fears about fame and celebrity.
Musically, it translates into an over-the-top, disgustingly intimate parody of glam rock mixed with industrial rock to make it weird and fucked up. It's what every puritan soccer mom perceives hard rock as, but played 100% straight.
So basically, he felt that he was becoming a meme, so he decided to fuck over everyone by taking the meme so far that everyone would either understand him or stop liking him altogether.
It's deep. As deep as mainstream rock can get.
>>63878398
Trent made the sound of the album, but the concept and the ambition was already there before him.
bumb
>>63878498
that's a really interesting analysis
sonically i still prefer his first album, but i respect this album quite a bit.
can i ask your opinion on how he got to the point where he's at now, in current times? it's no secret that the quality of his music has dipped pretty drastically. i wouldn't say AWFUL, as i liked bits off of high end of low, but... at least compared to what he was before, idunno.
>>63878498
Mechanical Animals and Holy Wood don't seem to carry this theme on as much as people claim. I understand that they're all meant to be from different perspectives, but Antichrist seems to be his only "real" work while the rest are just ironic and catchy.
>>63878790
Actually, I think Mechanical Animals is more "real" in sound to what he wanted from the band.
Holy Wood is more of a reaction record, less it's own thing and more an explanation of what the last two were. A middle ground, perhaps.
>>63878700
the same shit happened over and over again, basically.
Mechanical Animals and Holy Wood were continuations of the same concept (misunderstood role models and attempts at salvation through fame) but very few people understood them. The more popular he grew the more he tried to portray fame in a bad light and the more people wanted to be like him. After Holy Wood he wanted to stop making music but that's when he got married to Dita, who urged him to keep up his rockstar shtick.
In the early 2000s, after the rise of industrial rock, nu-metal and gangsta rap to the mainstream, he felt that he had nothing left to say and that making edgy music wouldn't help him get his point across since every kid was using their music taste to appear tough anyway.
So he made The Golden Age of Grotesque as a final "fuck you" to his fans. It's basically a self-parody that also fuses every pseudo-counterculture (nu-metal, gangsta rap, his own industrial glam rock, even swing and jazz, cartoons and low-brow surrealism) into one big trashy clusterfuck that's meant to say "Your music taste doesn't make you special, you aren't a rebel, your 'tribe' is no different from any other, all that shit sounds the same, all you care about is having dumb loud catchy music to dance to and freaky imagery to go with it".
It's a statement about culture in general, and since it's a very pessimistic one, it sounds like shit. And of course his dumb fans loved it.
After that he just went on with a more intimate, masturbatory homage to goth rock just to rake in some more money.
The High End of Low was a very clumsy attempt to replicate the success of ACSS but since there was no substance or drive behind it, it was awful.
Born villain was just some rock about his fantasies he made for fun.
And The Pale Emperor is bluesy goth rock about an aging mafia lord or something, which is a fun concept.
>>63878498
lamo there are people that listen marilyn manson and they actually think about his shit enough to write things like that.
it's not like it's death grips, it's just garbage
>>63878790
Mechanical Animals is too much of a Bowie tribute to really be its own thing. And Holy Wood, as >>63878905 said is more of a reaction album. There's also a gratuitous quality to all its cultural references and imagery, it's certainly very emotional but there's no majesty to it, because the ego trip was mostly over by this point.
>>63878700
He obviously had to adapt to losing most of his vocal range. Seeing his newer performances of older songs is just depressing. His music also changed a lot after working with Tim Skold from KMFDM, similarly to how it changed when he worked with Trent Reznor.
>>63879002
your bait isn't as subtle as you think it may be
>>63879089
it's not bait I actually laughed after I read that post. I get that someone might dismiss DG as edgy bullshit but there's legitimate connections to high art there, where as MM is literally just Alice Cooper give me your money I'm a weirdo bullshit.
spooky kids Manson is best Manson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiF6Zx-NzbE
>>63879150
you realize DG got their sound from another trent reznor produced project, right?
>>63879212
you realize that's not true and if it were (really stressing here, it's not, you are a dumbass) it wouldn't be relevant to what I have said?
>>63879150
Death Grips is a decent digital hardcore band and digital hardcore is a very good music genre.
I don't see why you're false-flagging against DG
>>63879150
You get what you want from it. If you want to see Marilyn Manson as just some edgy bullshit out to make a buck off angsty teenagers then that's exactly what it is. You're obviously not going to really listen to his music and think about it so it doesn't matter.
>>63879172
I disagree
But every grown-up who wants to have kids should give Portrait a listen. It's a very good portrayal of every fucked up aspect of childhood most people try to forget and deny.
>>63878241
This guy gave him a hand
>>63878398
>>63879314
>trentfags
He just helped with the production. It was beautiful, awesome, and way ahead of its time, but it was just production. He didn't write the songs.
>>63879396
and most importantly he didn't perform them
Manson's vocals are incredible on this album
>>63879396
>just production
>just mixing
>just editing
>just programming
>just changed the arrangements
>just create new versions
half of the songs on ACS existed even before POAAF, and sound nothing like the originals. The new versions Reznor made was part of the reason SMP left the band during the recording process.
>>63878241
because you're an underaged pleb?
>>63879396
> He just helped with the production
Maybe that's the reason why It feels like he's listening to an entirely different band.
>>63878987
What do you think of his current state of mind? I mean, back until TGAOG he had some kind of desire to create magnificent works. None of his albums are perfect but they are ambitious and honest to some extent. But then, after Eat me drink me, which I think is a nice record btw, something happened.
Not only his albums became way more simplistic/unoriginal or maybe parodies of himself and his old sound, I consider this to happen specifically in half of The High End of Low and all Born Villain and at the same time he was acting (I think this is a key word regarding marilyn manson) like they were fantastic records in the same vein as the old ones. What I mean i think it's reflected pretty good on songs like Hey, Cruel World or Murderers are getting prettier... I think he isn't trying anymore and is actually embracing all the dumb fans and expectations everyone had about him and the band, the same things he rejected as you say in your first post.
I really disliked the pale emperor because I can't stand his inability to sing "good" with his voice now, the screeches/strange moans after the chorus of Killing Strangers is what I mean. Also, his lyrics are really different now, note that I don't mean as in the subjects of the songs but more in the way they are written. They are imo dull, repetitive and more importantly, not fun. The music itself is amazing tho, I really wanted and tried to like that album.
>>63879623
As I said I think that he tried embracing his fans' expectations since TGAoG.
It's only with Born Villain that he more or less stopped acting (even though Eat Me seemed genuine to a degree). Now he's just doing some spooky rock for fun and I think it's pretty good.
I mean, I fucking wish he really came back with a vengeance because there's a shitload to say about the current state of music and pop culture, but I doubt anybody who should listen would and he knows it.
>>63879615
Trent also produced their first album though and it sounds completely different
>>63879596
I know only one person below the age of 18 who listens to MM and it's because my mom suggested it to her.
My MOM.
Marilyn Manson is OLD, dude.
>>63879623
One thing I've noticed is that you gotta pretty much forget that it's Marilyn Manson to really enjoy them. They're good, but in different ways. I know that I would have liked his newer albums a lot more if I could avoid comparing them to the Big Three.
>>63879848
trent played a larger role in the writing process of the songs on ACS in comparison to POAAF
>>63878498
Bump. This thread is awesome. and anon's analysis is on point, deeper even than i had thought of it ever before. but he is right, when i was a junior in high school, i read marilyn mansions book, the long hard road out of hell. its a good read, but essentially, manson was pushing his own limitations of becoming what people hated. he just wanted to push the envelope as much as humanly possible while still maintaining a mainstream pop status.
after reading his book, marilyn manson actually mentions that he was dissatisfied with antichrist superstar, that it did not meet his own expectations of what he wanted. he says that trent rezone had his own idea of what he wanted which was a different vision from marilyn mansions. mechanical animals was a little closer to what manson had intended his album to be. he wanted more dark pop and didn't really care for the industrial sound, that was all trent.
>>63879866
>15 years is old
teenagers actually believe this
>>63879891
Well thank god for Trent because it wouldn't have worked otherwise. Especially considering the visual aesthetic MM was going for at that time.
And let's not forget that Manson says a lot of bullshit in his book.
>>63878241
His autobiographic novel explains the quality of the album pretty well. Trent's production had a huge impact on it, but most important part is actually what Brian was going through at that time of his life.
>>63879907
15 years is two generations in sociological terms.
He's a complete has-been and I'm saying that as someone who got into his music in my 20s.
>>63879947
I'm actually glad I got obsessed with his shit in my 20s rather than as a teenager. I would hate for his work to just be some shit I listened to in high school like how most people I know think of him.
>>63880177
Me too. In retrospect it fucked me up a bit at an uncomfortable time, but I can appreciate for what it's really worth.
By the way, do you know of any decent Spooky Kids tribute band?
I know there's one that's literally called the Spooky Kids and it's meh, and there's another I forgot the name of, which was around in the late 90s/early 2000s and much more creative.
>>63880261
I still haven't gotten into the tributes yet, but I would love to see one live.
>you will never mosh to Organ Grinder in the early - mid 90s
>>63880261
I wish more people knew about the spooky kids
Daisy Berkowitz was such a good songwriter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GndhJZdycWA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6tLQ-c1bYM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MheoUfb3Hk
>>63879810
>there's a shitload to say about the current state of music and pop culture
That's part of why I've caught on to his music so recently. His messages and ideas are more relevant now than ever before. They're almost eerily prophetic.
>>63880589
I disagree, I think a lot of his message had to do with the rock star phenomenon, which has mostly died out since then.
I mean you could argue that we've got hip hop and pop artists who are still really famous and people still obsess over them, but there's no longer that "counterculture tribe" mentality that was very prevalent throughout the 90s-2000s. Everyone's way too self-aware and way too self-conscious and that's not the perspective he was going for.
>>63880261
Murderdolls?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7d44j9xXKo
>>63880676
No, a bit more obscure.
Like, they really play up the Dr Seuss aesthetic a lot, can't remember anything specific unfortunately, but they sound even weirder than the spooky kids.
>>63880261
Deathstars?
>>63880755
No, Deathstars are Sisters of Mercy on steroids, no connection with the spooky kids specifically.
>>63880261
Lunatic Candy Creep? They started as a spooky kids cover band and then started making their own stuff.
I think they still exist, but have completely changed their members and sound.
>>63880865
YES!
THANK YOU!
>>63880796
Okay, you're right, they just came to my mind because they look pretty similar
>>63880879
I think i still have their Cure for the common cold ep somewhere
they were good until the lead singer got kicked out for bootlegging their shows behind the band's back...
>>63880660
You pretty much summarized Mechanical Animals
>>63880589
Could you elaborate on this? I was a big fan, so I'm really curious about it.
>>63879150
>we will not show up to our own shows
>no one has ever done this before
So very artistic.
>>63881308
He describes the death of counterculture, the transition of idealism into arrogance and narcissism, the rise of the New Right, the desensitization of modern culture, how our attempts to create meaningful popular art becomes meaningless in itself, ect.
>>63880660
I still think he was the last proper rock star for this reason alone.
He took the whole stereotype to its limits and ended up killing it off in the process.
>>63882158
that's entirely true
>>63879848
No he did not
The album was signed by Nothing records, he paid for it, but he wasn't in the studio.
It's Sean Beavan, and Manson blamed him for the sound of the album.
>>63878241
Portrait of an American family is probably the worst out of his first four, but it seems like Manson just a lot of fun making it, and you can feel that in the music. He also put a sort of "mockabre" spin on popular culture to illustrate the lack of meaning of things like "edgy" music. The album is overall just "spooky" but fun.
Antichrist Superstar is an assessment of Manson's taste of fame, and the power and numbness that comes with it. It is concentrated and he seems to pour all of his experience into the album with monstrous supernatural elements and a twist of Nietzsche's philosophy. It's probably his most inspired album, perhaps rivaled by the injury expressed in Holy Wood.
One thing Antichrist does really well is maintaining its dark, bleak, scary atmosphere, whether the band is going hard as fuck (chorus of reflecting god) or playing a mellower soundscape (The ending of cryptorchid).
Speaking of the consistency of the music, each song on Antichrist Superstar has a different flavor and structure from the next, which greatly improves the album. This is not the case as much on any of the other albums in the triptych or Portrait of an American Family, whose songs are much more similar to one another. Generally, throughout any album, the more variation the better. Antichrist Superstar is the best Manson has done as far as keeping the music varied and consistently good.
The "character" of Antichrist Superstar is the most complex he's put out, even if the character is fundamentally hateful and powerful, he's also a little regretful and is not exempt from his own hate. The range of emotions here is probably only rivaled by Holy Wood, which is a more emotionally driven album in general.
Pic unrelated, just a nice wallpaper of my favorite Manson album cover.
>>63883617
true
let's not forget how heavily influenced by White Zombie the spooky kids were too.
>>63883617
>Portrait of an American Family is probably the worst out of his first four
It's too different to really compare in terms of "better" or "worse." Pre-tryptych, tryptych, and post-tryptych Manson are like three completely different artists. POAF is a great album, but a different kind of "great." If you judge all his work by the same standards as Antichrist Superstar, everything else he did is complete shit.
>>63883617
Holy Wood is my favorite album in terms of sound, but Antichrist has a better flow to it. Not only are the songs varied, but they transition in such a way that they form a clear story and build off one another. Holy Wood seems like it just has too much going on at once and lacks that sort of grand opera feel.
Holy Wood has better songs, Antichrist Superstar is a better album.
