GOAT
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You are currently reading a thread in /mu/ - Music
You are currently reading a thread in /mu/ - Music
Was he really the greatest of all time?
>>63782570
>>63782612
Well damn
For me, it's either Kool G Rap or Big L, but he's probably in 3rd.
>>63782558
maybe
most overrated rapper of all time
>>63782558
Objectively speaking, he's up there. He undeniably made a massive impact on the genre.
In terms of pure lyricism, however, he's not even close.
Drake is better IMO. He knows about and raps about actual feelings
>>63782704
this
Doesnt impress either lyrically or technically. I guess if you count style or influence hes important.
Rakim is goat
2pac is good though
>>63782558
No, not at all.
He was as average as many others. The fact that he was shot like a dog at the peak of that absurd east-west coast competiton — thus earning his martyr status — explains a lot of his legacy IMHO.
>>63782558
Biggie was better.
>>63782814
He'd probably be considered in the same category as the likes of Cube - good but not great. His death elevated him to a level he had no right of attaining.
My theory is that he's so beloved because he touched on a lot of subject matter that was important. He wasn't really a great rapper or lyricist but what he wrote about meant a lot to some people and spread information about problems people faced. If he had the same beats, flow, and lyrical creativity but rapped exclusively about being a gangsta and having a ton of money etc., I have no doubt he wouldn't be the household name he is now. It's all about the subject matter
Well respected for his look most of all, he was a "change the world" rapper whose material was kind of weak. His music was okay but it hasn't aged super well, and his skill and style as a rapper? Poor. Undeniably a big face of the genre.
In terms of Biggie and Tupac, Biggie fucking raps all over Tupac, and makes better music. Biggie has more great songs on his debut than Tupac has in his entire discography.
Coming up on the twenty year anniversary of his death, his legacy has been continually perverted by the release of shelved and unfinished material that probably should have never seen the light of day.
Pac probably deserves a spot on a Top 10 list, but in the minds of a lot of hip hop heads, is over-praised.
>>63782734
>Drake is better
I'm not a big fan of Pac, but that's complete bullshit.
>>63782926
I wish Ice Cube would've have died if it would have cemented him as a legend. Ice Cube's first 3-4 records are absolute gold that don't seem to get a lot of love now. AmeriKKKas Most Wanted is a stone-cold fucking classic.
>>63782558
he couldn't produce like Kanye so objectively no
No because Eminem exists.
>>63782734
Drake is an R&B singer who raps about Toronto.
>>63783894
yikes if you're serious
Thing is, it's not so much his music that made him an important figure but the kind of person that he was during his short lifespan. He was a legitimate revolutionary fighter. He was speaking out in interviews and trying to raise awareness/the human consciousness. He was obviously executed by law enforcement because of how outspoken he was. RIP to an incredible man.
>>63784021
Just like Kendrick Lamar though, he was also willing to be a song-and-dance man for teeny boppers, and was willing to let his own pop success dilute his message.
I'm not saying that a pop singer can't have a message (pop music is super important and shouldn't be dismissed), but Tupac didn't do it quite right, and (so far) neither has Kendrick.
>>63784077
Agreed. But like Pac, Kendrick is well aware of this. Pac has always been very outspoken on the evils of the entertainment industry and what money does to people. It's just something they can't avoid. However, I am glad they both were able to speak out on it. Kendrick can do more, for sure, and I hope he does. I feel like his "aggressive" and in-your-face album is in the works.
>>63783934
Em's better than Pac.
how to get into pac
>>63784369
Shoot him.
He had charisma and personality, those are honestly the most important aspects of a rap artist.
>>63784576
That's probably why he's generally viewed higher than Biggie. Biggie could rap circles around him for days, but Pac was fucking ridiculously charismatic. Even with his inferior rapping ability, he could reach people in a way that Biggie simply could not.
>>63784131
But will people who aren't already keyed-in to that sort of thing hear it? Because if we get a record that's 45-minutes of The Blacker the Berry, the only people who will hear it are people already in the know, right?
>>63784168
Eminem isn't better than anything. All of his material is laughable, and even his early material has aged like a loaf of bread.
The only worthwhile Eminem is his role on 2001.
>>63784710
Biggie is charismatic though, Pac is just handsome and more TV-ready. Tupac captured the MTV teenagers of the 90s in a way that Biggie never could have, because he just doesn't play as well to lame white suburbanites.
>>63784814
>Eminem isn't better than anything
>>63785125
Prove me wrong good friend. Prove to me you aren't
1) Latently racist about hip hop
or
2) New to the genre
or
3) Have curiously bad taste?
>>63785304
Prove that Pac is better than Em.
>>63785353
Your argument for Eminem is to turn it around on me? I'm also the person a couple posts above arguing against Pac, but Pac is still better than Eminem.
Eminem's made zero contribution to hip hop at large. Despite being the rare Dre protege that goes on to do anything (what's good RDX), his early material is that of a rapping early to mid-90s "shock jock". His jokes aren't funny, but just dumb. His vulgarity isn't impressive or groundbreaking. All attempts at seriousness are undermined by his lack of character, only fronting that he is the angriest white guy in the universe--and I can't think of anything less appealing than a shouty, nasaly, "angry white man" this side of curdled milk.
His shtick was old fifteen years ago and he refuses to evolve as an artist. If it wasn't for features, his career would be dead. Today it is bolstered by people who can't connect to the black experience and need a distinctly white surrogate to get into the music.
He is a few shades better than Vanilla Ice, but his niche is roughly the same. He is non-threatening. People who listen and love Eminem are the kids who aren't cool enough yet to get into Tribe and De La, but they'll get there. They'll get into all the 90s jazz rap that is truly great, and then grow into the culture/genre from there.
Eminem has technical ability but has never evolved as an artist, though he occasionally fronts like he has. He needs to accept that Dre spot he now lives in and step into the shadows. He needs to focus primarily on another venture, because he has nothing left to say in hip hop.
Your turn.
>>63785542
>your turn
flippant cunt
>>63785768
Thanks, dude, but I asked you to tell me why Eminem is a worthwhile artist before you asked me.
Let's have this discussion!
>>63782754
Please. I hate this meme almost as much as I hate the 'Bob Dylan is a bad singer' meme. Listen to If I Die 2 Night and tell me that's not lyrically or technically impressive.
JAY Z is the greatest
>>63785815
Slim Shady LP is better than anything that Pac every put out
>>63785973
That's almost objectively untrue. That album has had zero impact on hip hop. I can hear Pac being referenced and I can hear him being aped today. Nobody gives a shit about Slim Shady, and hip hop fans today think that's corny as fuck. I thought that record was 10/10 when I was in fourth grade.
>>63782754
>Doesnt impress either lyrically or technically
>Probably just listened to California Love and thinks he's an 2pac expert
Kill yourself. You're not entitled to an opinion.
>>63785542
The only thing Pac has over Em is his icon status, and even that is made tenuous by the fact that Em has enjoyed much greater longevity than Pac and thus became more culturally significant.
>and I can't think of anything less appealing than a shouty, nasaly, "angry white man" this side of curdled milk.
He's literally the best-selling hip hop artist of all time. So, obviously, his schtick has an appeal that you are simply failing to recognise. And that's because he reached a mainstream platform that Pac almost attained, but was killed off before he could.
Em was able to extend the tendrils of rap into middle-class America and into the suburban homes of affluent white families. Hate it all you want, argue that it was detrimental to the genre if you like, but Em elevated Rap in a manner that Pac never could because he introduced an entire social class to it.
Em surpasses Pac in almost every regard. Mainstream success? Easy. Cultural salience? Easy. Acting? Easy. Lyrical ability? Easy.
>>63785973
>mfw Me against the world is better than Eminem entire discography
>>63786044
>he's too young to remember that eminem was the first white rapper that anyone took seriously since the Beastie Boys
>>63785950
He's a Biggie biter.
>>63786313
This is like talking to my dad. Success plays a role, but saying that Eminem used his shtick to sell big time to the midwest is hardly an argument for his greatness or relevance to the scene itself. We're not here discussing sale charts, we're discussing a medium of expression.
I would say Eminem is as recognizable as Pac if not a little bit less? Eminem is hardly en vogue. I see a lot of young teenagers who are mostly unfamiliar with both artists, but nonetheless wearing Pac shirts. I hear people who were born after Pac and Biggie died argue about the two.
As far as Eminem "elevating rap", I don't know what you're trying to say. I think you're talking about financials, but that doesn't mean anything to me, or anybody here.
Jay Leno is one of the richest comedians on the fucking planet. Is he a great comedian? Any comedian or fan of comedy as an art would say nay.
History will (and has) proved that Pac is a greater legend than Eminem. Pac is forever young, and his face will be on t-shirts forever, like a hip hop Che Guevara. Eminem is somebody who you can win a framed picture of playing skee-ball at the Carnival.
Eminem continues to age poorly, and even his material from this decade plays like a relic.
Pac never got to evolve as an artist, but Eminem never will.
>>63786476
People did not take the Beastie Boys seriously. Licensed to Ill was treated like a white Fat Boys record and they were nearly akin to one-hit-wonders had it not been for their resurgence as an alternative group in the mid 90s.
Nonetheless, even the success of Check Your Head (the record that brought my wife and I together, hey!), Ill Communication, and Hello Nasty are less-remembered in the shadow of songs like "Fight For Your Right", "No Sleep Till Brooklyn", and "Girls".
Even today their greatest achievement, Pauls Boutique, is still looked down at by a large amount of hip hop fans.
Man is Pauls Boutique good though. I bet I know 85% of the words on that record.
>>63787247
>Pac never got to evolve as an artist, but Eminem never will.
Not that guy, but you say that like it's a bad thing. Eminem is consistently regarded as one of the best rap artists to ever pic up a mic to this very day. Why would he want to change his style when he receives such high praise from people? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
/mu/ is weak
>>63782726
Agreed. I recently listened to All Eyez On Me and it was horrible. The whole thing. Life Goes on was the only okay song. I'd say his lyricism was on par with ICP. Kendrick is lightyears ahead of Pac.
>>63782754
Tupac is to hip hop as the bible is to literature. Nobody really cares about him until someone talks shit about him.
>>63782926
>Ice Cube
>good but not great
>>63787247
>Jay Leno is one of the richest comedians on the fucking planet. Is he a great comedian? Any comedian or fan of comedy as an art would say nay.
Even during the height of their feud David Letterman said Leno was the best comedian on late night television when he actually tried.
>>63787247
How exactly do sales not translate to relevance? Sales numbers are a pretty reliable representation of an artist's popularity. Eminem's exponentially greater record sales means that he was able to utilise rapping as a medium of expression better than Pac did.
And I don't know how you can say Eminem's material is antiquated when Pac, like you said, never got to evolve. His rhyme patterns are also nursery level compared to Eminem's.
>>63782704
He's like jcole overrated AF and his legacy will make him seem better than he was
>>63787814
My Name Is made it to number 15 on the charts and was arguably THE song that put Eminem on the map. I saw this being used as an example of how sales doesn't always translate to relevance, oddly enough.
>>63787814
No offense man but with the digital age sales don't mean shit anymore, not there's so many ways of acquiring music, making it impossible to keep track like one might have done before.
>>63787884
I misspoke, it actually only got to 36 on the hot 100, though that still helps my point.
>>63786332
/thread
>>63787534
>mfw you dont realize that he rushed that album to get out of his deathrow contract that contained 3 albums (it was a double album).
He made the album in 2 weeks, an impressive feat.
>>63787946
That's true, but both Eminem and Tupac rose to prominence in a time before the Internet was such a universal tool for the average Westerner. People were still primarily buying albums when Eminem was blowing up.
Nas, Rakim, Big L, Biggie, Big Pun, Ice Cube, pretty much all the Wu-Tang, Eminem, Common, Kendrick Lamar, KRS-One, Kool G Rap, Big Daddy Kane, Redman, DMX, the list goes on.
There are a million and one rappers better than 2pac.
>>63789247
you forgot some
Mos Def and Talib Keweli, Dr.Dre, Geto Boys, Pharcyde(thier less comedic songs are insane). Jay-Z, Canibus
Nas is the GOAT standalone rapper, Rakim, several of the Wu-Tang guys and Q-Tip are up there with him. Kanye West is also up there as a producer regardless of the hate he gets.
>>63789883
>Dr.Dre
>>63790461
>the Chronic
dont try to act smart about things you dont know kid
>>63790788
Snoop did most of the rap work on that album. Dre was never known as a good rapper.
>it's a this guy is the best because he got popped while being popular thread
>>63791163
Forgot about Dre was some pretty good rap if ive ever seen it, im mainly talking about about the production value and flow of the entire album tough, he may not be a GREAT rapper but hes no doubt an Epic producer
technically not the best, but as a persona, damn he was absolutely huge. His influence, his leadership, his charisma have been unmatched to this day
>>63787313
The Beastie Boys were not meant to be taken seriously. They were a punk band doing a joke that they just kept doing because it was popular
>>63787594
Ice Cube is utter shit bro
>>63782814
>>63782926
It's like when people say this about Kurt Cobain. Yes, their deaths made them into weird legends, but I don't think you understand just how insanely huge they actually were during their lifetimes.
>>63787247
>Jay Leno is one of the richest comedians on the fucking planet. Is he a great comedian? Any comedian or fan of comedy as an art would say nay.
He is notorious for being one of the most gifted stand-up comedians of all time who "sold out" for television fame and watered down material. Almost everyone in comedy who's old enough to remember would tell you he's one of the most talented people to ever touch the mic. Yet you're acting like you know.
>>63787313
I think he meant "taken seriously" as in actually being recognized as talented, not like they were actually hardcore or something.
>>63783842
u 8 the b8 m8
>>63782558
He wasn't even the greatest at the time
>>63791993
I'm 44 years old and this isn't true. Everyone's always hated Leno.
>>63791506
I agree that he's a brilliant producer, but Pac supersedes him in rap skills.
>>63789247
Add Future.
>>63792598
>Everyone's always hated Leno.
Except most people in the comedy circuit in the late 70s, particularly in the underground NY scene. He absolutely was a legend in stand-up comedy.
>>63791665
No one's questioning his importance to the genre or music as a whole. But I think it's a pretty fair comment that his death does tend to blow that importance out of proportion somewhat.
>>63782570
West coast
>>63782612
East coast
>>63787534
>not liking Can't C Me
that thing is a monster
pinnacle of g-funk
>>63791633
his first three records are all classics
>>63784814
My sides
>>63793109
*first
Ghost face is the real "GOAT" tupac was shot and his music was drake status popular that's why he's considered the best. Now biggie you can make an argument that he's the best but by far Tony stark is the fucking king.
>mom's spaghetti
>>63793219
Death Certificate is probably the best of the three so I'd disagree
>>63793262
Amerikkka is his best
>>63793301
I vastly prefer Cube over Boogiemen beats as opposed to Bomb Squad, ...Most Wanted sounds safe and conservative in comparison.
>>63785950
Stop this meme please
Is there literally any good white rapper aside from Eminem? Or is he the sole exception?
>Tupac is bad
>>63793219
>summers coming
>gonna sit on the porch with malt liquor and menthols
>pieces to the puzzle on repeat
