In light of recent events, I've been wondering..
Can you separate the artist's music from who they are as a person? Can you still enjoy someones music after learning about who they really are who what they have?
I'm not speculating on the whole Gira ordeal, and I really hope it turns out to be false, but it's just the most recent & relevant example to use for this. In the worst case scenario (he dun it), would you still be able to enjoy his music?
Yeah
I don't care. Doesn't change how the music sounds or the artist's ability/talent.
I just decided to not give a fuck about anything artists' do outside of their music.
yeah
plenty of musicians I like are huge assholes (Roger Waters, Taylor Swift, Miles Davis, Gira, even without the rape allegations sounds like a pretentious faggot)
>>62965858
>>62965859
>>62965883
>>62965908
That's been my line of thinking as well. However, I can easily see myself being a whole lot less vocal about liking Swans if everything goes south, but I think that'd mainly be because I wouldn't want people to automatically associate me with supporting rape just because I still listen to his music, which is something I can see easily happen.
Makes me wonder how many trash bins were filled with Swans albums immediately once those articles started to show up.
Even if it happened just like Grimm said it happened it seemed like the saddest, most pathetic attempt at rape you could do.
There are artists that have done much worse things and I can still enjoy their works. All I'm worried about is how Gira is going to be able to continue making music, since all his new albums have been mostly funded by the fans.
>this broke bastard not even able to fund his own albums supposedly said "I'm going to make you a star"
fucking. lel.
>>62965986
What I hate is how everyone is militantly declaring that you're either on Gira's side or Grimm's side. Is it really so crazy to hang back and keep neutral until tangible evidence is brought about in court? Why does not wanting to automatically believe a serious accusation that can ruin someone's life make one a misogynist pig that supports rape? If we were to crucify people based solely upon another's word, we'd be back in the days of the Salem Witch Trials..
>>62966055
I agree. Problem is, there probably won't be a court case. she said that she "didn't want to ruin his life" and there is probably little evidence to make such a thing worthwhile. So there can be no definitive legal case to show who is and who isn't lying, therefore creating space for people to make their own assumptions based on political and social beliefs.
>>62966055
Neutral is not the logically default, most correct argument just for no reason. I'll concede this as an argument for either side.
People have the right to be skeptical and to say a person's character has no bearing on their actions or potential to do something immoral is complete incorrect to say.
See how neutral this sounds? Who am I supporting? Nonetheless it justifies taking sides. The problem is people on one side in particular cannot tolerate the other's right to dissent, and this deepens the divide. But two are not alike and there is a such thing as a case being maybe not 100% right or 100% wrong but 70-90% right or 70-90% wrong.
>>62966090
>she said that she "didn't want to ruin his life" and there is probably little evidence to make such a thing worthwhile.
She's really clever that way.
She probably knows that this wouldn't go far in court for lack of evidence so instead she puts it out on social media and let people assume things based on that. And since everything rape related is so huge now, she's going to win this by popular vote. Even though at this point it's just his word against hers.
>>62966090
I imagine Gira, provided he has the evidence, could sue for libel?
>>62966098
You make a very valid point, I hadn't thought of that. Makes me wish I knew a lawyer just so I could ask them "So how would you handle this ordeal?". Must be a nightmare.
>>62965849
I prioritize Swans over whether or not he did rape anybody, that said though I know that whatever happened it doesn't reflect on him anything that I didn't already assume about his character.
I try not to care too much about an artist as a person or their personal lives or character flaws because I'm not perfect either. I'm about the biggest asshole I know so it would be very hypocritical to stop listening to them because they are too.
>>62965982
>I wouldn't want people to automatically associate me with supporting rape just because I still listen to his music, which is something I can see easily happen.
Where do you live that this happens? Do you purposely hang out with closeminded hipsters?
It depends on how much of the artist's life and personality are in the music. For example, I find it hard to separate Mark Kozelek from Sun Kil Moon's output because his lyrics are usually quite personal. The same can be said about a lot of hip hop artists. But other artists are more personally distant from the music they make which in turn makes it easier to separate the artist from the art
>>62965849
Being able to separate product from producer is a simple part of adulthood. Otherwise, we'd dismiss Socrates and Plato and Aristotle for being pederasts, and so on, ad infinitum and ad absurdum.
>>62965849
No.
>>62966256
Socrates, Plato and Aristotle were complete idiots so I'm happy to dismiss them.
>>62966281
Edgy.
>>62965849
You should always separate the artist from the piece of art.
Their music exists as a separate entity to themselves and you as a listener have just as authentic an experience with the art as the artist does. Even pieces o work that are deeply personal with clear intent do not have to be appreciated on the artists terms, in fact, to do so would be to reject your own autonomy as the audience. Maintaining a radical autonomy as an audience is essential to the appreciation of art.
Considering an artists discography for the sake of continuity is handy but not necessary and adds nothing to appreciation.
>>62966223
Good point.
>>62966208
The potential stigma is something I'd rather not risk. Which I guess makes me a not as dedicated fan.
>>62966256
Yeah, and that reminds me of how people still celebrate and adore John Lennon despite him being proven to have physically and emotionally abused his wives and kids.
>>62966223
Most art is expression of the artist, you'd have harder time finding someone who DOESN'T incorporate his personality and life into his work.
That said, Gira's lyrics are quite cryptic and sometimes mostly instrumental.
>>62966292
no one knows of swans, and the ones that have heard of them don't care
slightly non consensual sex when both parties are drunk is not rape
rape is a home invasion at 3am with a ski mask
>>62966357
please rape me please i be g you rape me
>>62966357
no, rape is when you dismember someone and masturbate with the remains while their ghost is politely asking you to stop
fucking sjws
>>62966368
>tfw no girl to roleplay home invasion rape with
>>62966292
>The potential stigma is something I'd rather not risk. Which I guess makes me a not as dedicated fan.
what kind of friends would honestly think you support rape because you enjoy gira's music....?
if someone does that there's a myriad of fucking awful people everyone adores: steve jobs, john lennon.
people just wanna look at other people's faults as a way to escape culpability for their own shortcomings.
>Hey! A famous guy raped someone! I'm gonna boycott him!
>Now I don't feel like a terrible person that's empty inside!
>>62966383
oh i'm "wet"
>>62966420
lol
>>62965849
well I mean.... Kendrick said it best last year. "When shit hit the fan, is you still a fan?"
Yes, but people often forget to do this.
A good example of this is Iceage.
Iceage were being accused for nazi sympathy, because they sold knives and recommended right-wing artists, because they thought had some interesting music.
They said they didn't understand the accusations, because first and foremost, they had a jew in their band and secondly most of them didn't want to mix politics into their art.
In Elias' words: "I like the music of Charles Manson too, so am I in support of murder now?"
http://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2013/feb/22/iceage-rightwing-accusations
It's an issue I see with cinema often too. The misunderstanding of presentation =/= agreement. For example, Quentin Tarantino often uses racism as a major theme in his movies, but this does not mean he agrees with the ideas discussed in his projects. It's an interpretation or an understanding, not an agreement. There is an important distinction between the two.
>>62966498
>"I like the music of Charles Manson too, so am I in support of murder now?"
YES
I actually care, i mean yeah the music dont gonna "change" still gonna be good but i feel like the person doesnt just put her hability or creativity but also part of his "soul". And if his soul is contaminated with impures - horrible throughs it gonna contamined me too! it will affect me too so i would not gonna really enjoy it that much.
![shyne-album-cover[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/h9nGpOb.jpg "shyne-album-cover[1].jpg")
>>62966482
>Whatcha 'gon do, when shit hit the fan?
>Take it like a man, or snitch like a bitch?
All that matter is what goes thorugh my headphones and into my brain
anything else is a secondary consideration and optional.
Burzum.
>>62965849
Lets be honest here though..... These types of accusations are long awaited based on the way Swans sound.
>>62966536
burzum is a piece of shit but the music good.
Apparently not in Ian Watkins case
>>62966565
Rooftops is still a good song
>>62966588
It never was, last train home however.
>>62966565
he may have gone too far in a few places
>>62966565
Never heard of the man before this, but was his music about how great fucking babies is?
>>62966281
*slow claps*
*steps out of the shadows*
Heh... not bad, kid. Not bad at all. Your meme, I mean. It's not bad. A good first attempt. It's plenty dank... I can tell it's got some thought behind it... lots of quotable material...
But memeing isn't all sunshine and rainbows, kid. You're skilled... that much I can tell. But do you have what it takes to be a Memester? To join those esteemed meme ranks? To call yourself a member of the Ruseman's Corps?
Memeing takes talent, that much is true. But more than that it takes heart. The world-class Memesters - I mean the big guys, like Johnny Hammersticks and Billy Kuahana - they're out there day and night, burning the midnight meme-oil, working tirelessly to craft that next big meme.
And you know what, kid? 99 times out of a hundred, that new meme fails. Someone dismisses it as bait, or says it's "tryhard," or ignores it as they copy/paste the latest shitpost copypasta dreamt up by those sorry excuses for cut-rate memers over at reddit. The Meme Game is rough, kid, and I don't just mean the one you just lost :^). It's a rough business, and for every artisan meme you craft in your meme bakery, some cocksucker at 9gag has a picture of a duck or some shit that a million different Johnny No-Names will attach a milion different captions to.
Chin up, kid. Don't get all mopey on me. You've got skill. You've got talent. You just need to show your drive.
See you on the boards...
Think about it this way. Even if some part of the artist was imparted into the work,assuming he is a rapist, you enjoyed it. The only thing that has changed it that you now know, the music is still the same.
1) People are not defined solely by the best or worst things they have done. If he did it it's bad, but it's not the only or even the biggest impact he has had on the world.
2) People are really surprised that the man who writes half hour homicidal dirges about rape and eating people is not a squeaky clean person? Really?
what the fuck happened with gira, but no, how artists act shouldn't affect the art and sometimes might add to it
>>62966876
You can make violent themed music and still not be that person. It's an alter ego.
>>62965849
to an extent, maybe. I mean, I really like Billy Corgan's music, but he has some powerful crazy goin on in his head. Also, Jerry Lee Lewis was a psychotic hunk of fuck, but holy crap was his music great.
>>62966498
That's not the topic of discussion. We're talking about Michael Gira (allegedly) actually raping someone, not presenting rape in his music without necessarily agreeing with it.
>>62967018
It's still relevant, because you need to separate the artist and his values from the product.
>>62966953
Yes but in Gira's case nearly his entire body of work and whole public image is wrapped up in sexually violent and graphic imagery. It's always seemed to be more than just a common theme of his music. I hope to hellot's not true of course, but if it is it doesn't really reveal any aspects of him that one could not have already assumed.
When you don't separate
YOU DESERVE IT
>>62967033
Well, you can't necessarily base your opinions of an artist by their product either.
Eminem certainly didn't rape more than a 100 people for example.
>>62965849
I'm not going to stop listening to Swans. It's fucked up music, so I'm not surprised the man behind it is fucked up. Same goes for Burzum.
I get not wanting to support an artist financially or whatever, but I don't see why you should stop listening to the music. Maybe if you had a bubblegum pop artist that turned out to be a rapist or murderer the drastic conflict between their art and the reality of the actions would make it more difficult to fully be immersed in their music, but in the case of Swans it actually enhances it.
>>62967026
You don't need to. That's a choice you can make, but some would argue that it's impossible to make art without expressing yourself in some way. Swans' music sounds like the music of someone capable of rape.
>>62967073
Well obviously it comes down to your own opinion, but that doesn't change the fact that art and artist are two separate entities.
>>62967073
>Swans' music sounds like the music of someone capable of rape.
m8 anyone can yell edgy shit over a slow repetitive guitar riff, you don't have to be a rapist to qualify to do that.
>>62967073
Eh I can't even care about this bro is a certified legend idc about personal affairs. that man gave us Children of God you say he raped that girl?
>>62966055
Given that there has been a recent epidemic of false rape allegations, it's refreshing to see people pushing against Grimm. I just wish people did this more often when women make up stories like this.
>>62965849
I can, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't change anything.
I was really excited for that final album to be a big triumphant release, a really ambitious album and a finale for the current iteration of Swans. This latest iteration of the band has focused as much on the positivity that cataclysmic, dark, loud punishing music can bring as it has on the actual darkness.
These news kind of change how all of this feel a little bit. It was supposed to be a great and joyous event when this dropped. I feel like the momentum has taken a big drop with this. It's awkward instead of something wholly good.
I'm obviously still gonna listen to it since I am a huge fan, and I'll continue loving the band. But I feel like something has been taken away from this.
>>62967971
I know what you mean. Larkin Grimm is your typical parasite. She can't do anything good on her own, so she has to take away other people's thunder.
If it was Grimes he raped and not Grimm...most of you would side with Grimes...
I can't help but think Grimms is being mistreated due to being less than pretty.
There he is. There he goes again. Look, everyone! He posted it once again! Isn't he just the funniest guy around?! Oh Children of God.
I can almost see your pathetic overweight frame glowing in the dark, lit by your computer screen which is the only source of light in your room, giggling like a like girl as you once again type your little Swans thread up and fill in the captcha. Or maybe you don't even fill in the captcha. Maybe you're such a disgusting NEET that you actually paid for a 4chan pass, so you just choose the picture. Oh, and we all know the picture. The "epic" experimental rock rape cowboy, isn't it? I imagine you little shit laughing so hard as you click it that you drop your Doritos on the floor, but it's ok, your mother will clean it up in the morning. Oh, that's right. Did I fail to mention? You live with your mother. You are a fat fucking fuckup, she's probably so sick of you already. So sick of having to do everything for you all goddamn day, every day, for a grown man who spends all his time on 4chan posting about a mediocre band. Just imagine this. She had you, and then she thought you were gonna be a scientist or an astronaut or something grand, and then you became a NEET. A pathetic Swansfag NEET. She probably cries herself to sleep everyday thinking about how bad it is and how she wishes she could just disappear. She can't even try to talk with you because all you say is "FLEX YOUR MUSCLES" You've become a parody of your own self. And that's all you are. A sad little man laughing in the dark by himself as he prepares to indulge in the same old dance that he's done a million times now. And that's all you'll ever be.
>>62968098
it's not because of that, especially because that's just something people who already disagree with her are saying to insult her.
desu I think her story is extremely suspicious, but I think she's kinda cute
>>62967971
>I was really excited for that final album to be a big triumphant release, a really ambitious album and a finale for the current iteration of Swans. This latest iteration of the band has focused as much on the positivity that cataclysmic, dark, loud punishing music can bring as it has on the actual darkness.
Yeah, this pisses me off the most.
No matter if Mikey did it or not, something really cool is already ruined. The reunion of Swans was something special, a band with already established cult status reunites to get more attention than anyone could predict, releases highly acclaimed new albums, their fanbase becomes much bigger than ever before and it all ends just like that?
Fuck this gay solar system.
>>62968098
No it's because like some anon pointed out yetersday
So let's break it down.
Because of this, the careers of
>Phil Puleo
>Chris Pravdica
>Thor Harris
>Norman Westberg
>Christoph Hahn
as well as any audio tech engineers and touring managers with Young God Records have their fulltime work for the next year and a half jeopardized.
Millions of fans will be denied their final opportunity to see perhaps the most eclectic contemporary rock band in music, and a recording artist of forty years will have his legacy permanently tarnished
wrong timing
>>62965849
>Can you separate the artist's music from who they are as a person?
No, you can't and you shouldn't. it's the incorrect way to view art.
If anything, listen to Swans knowing that he's probably a rapist, and it makes more sense.
>>62968159
>Millions of fans will be denied their final opportunity to see perhaps the most eclectic contemporary rock band in music, and a recording artist of forty years will have his legacy permanently tarnished
>wrong timing
Then you should be blaming Gira for this. he's the one that most likely ruined your fun, not Larkin.
>>62968171
How can Gira be blamed for a psycho lying about him?
i enjoy the music of gesualdo and he literally cut his wife's head off and put it on a stick
>>62968174
How do you know she's lying?
>>62968171
I didn't write that part i was just copypasting what that guy said about the other ppl in SWANS
https://rbt.asia/mu/thread/S62958739#p62959953
yes gira fucked up but It'S sad when dumb idiots are saying how they will no longer like swans when gira isn't the only person in the band. it's Idiotic to discredit the other members
>>62968189
>yes gira fucked up but It'S sad when dumb idiots are saying how they will no longer like swans when gira isn't the only person in the band. it's Idiotic to discredit the other members
Why? You can't separate the art from the artist. If anything, you can no more clearly evaluate Swans.
>>62968185
What reason would I have to believe her? Especially in light of all the other false rape allegations lately.
>>62968194
> You can't separate the art from the artist
Okay it's obvious you don't take Art seriously. what the artist does in his personal life has nothing to do with us and it's not like swans is a singer-songwriter band. it's mainly instrumental cmon now.
Are you really gonna not like them over what gira did ? do the other members not mean anything to you? Be more open minded please
>>62968205
>What reason would I have to believe her?
Because you are a slut shaming Culture Warrior?
>Especially in light of all the other false rape allegations lately.
Like what?
Also there's a 92% chance she's being truthful.
>>62968213
there's a 92% chance you're a rapist also do you deny this?
>>62968210
>Okay it's obvious you don't take Art seriously.
It's clear you don't know how to evaluate art properly.
>what the artist does in his personal life has nothing to do with us
If that is not reflected in his art, he is a poor artist.
>not like swans is a singer-songwriter band. it's mainly instrumental cmon now.
Read the lyrics. It's basically rape-core.
>>62968221
Incorrect because /m/u is not one person. This fallacy won't work. Try again with a real retort.
>>62968226
So you don't deny you have raped somebody. I'm gonna assume you have unless you can provide proof
>>62968238
>So you don't deny you have raped somebody.
It's unlikely. There is only a 6% probability.
who cares?
why do people want their artists to be good people?
>>62968259
current trend is celebrity worship instead of people believing in themselves
blame atheism tbqh
>>62968185
I N N O C E N T U N T I L P R O V E N G U I L T Y
The justice system is not that hard to understand you cock monger there is no evidence other than her word
>>62968274
>I N N O C E N T U N T I L P R O V E N G U I L T Y
>The justice system
This is not a course case, no charges were filed.
Nice try though.
>>62968226
>Read the lyrics. It's basically rape-core.
Post examples post 2008 swans pls
>If that is not reflected in his art, he is a poor artist.
I agree swans are shit but ppl still shouldn't dislike the band all of a sudden because one members fuck up. what about everyone else who has done nothing wrong?
>It's clear you don't know how to evaluate art properly.
that's the beauty of art their is no correct way to view it. we're just gonna have to disagree on how we interpret Art okay :)
>>62965849
Kinda, yeah, unless they do something I consider to be absolutely morally reprehensible.
As for this kind of stuff it really baffles me how people just pick sides. What it is is a giant clusterfuck and a he said, she said kind of deal. People condemning Gira and calling him a rapist monster are as equally retarded as the fanboys bitching about 'SJWs' and uncritically defending him.
It's an absolute joke how people get so sensationalized and caught up in this and act like they know wtf went down when only those two people do.
>>62968251
According to Larkin herself, if you gather 10 people in a room, 5 male and 5 female, 1 of them must be a rapist and one of the girls must be a victim.
I can't take seriously someone who follows that line of thought.
>>62968185
I think she's lying because all of this Gira stuff came up after she got all feministy on her twitter. Its a cry for attention because since she was kicked off young god her career hasn't gotten any.
>>62968352
Especially since that 1 in 5 number was a lie started by Catharine McKinnon in the 80s, and feminists have been quoting it ever since.
>>62968380
she's in dirty projectors I don't see how her career got affected. what's stopped her like everyone and releasing shit on bandcamp she makes folk music ffs
I guess the whole rape made her lose her mojo is the only logical conclusion i can make
>>62968334
>Post examples post
Oh cherry-picking now?
>I agree swans are shit but ppl still shouldn't dislike the band all of a sudden because one members fuck up
Why do you care what other people like or dislike? it's their prerogative and it doesn't effect you.
>that's the beauty of art their is no correct way to view it.
I believe you believe that.
>>62968352
>According to Larkin herself, if you gather 10 people in a room, 5 male and 5 female, 1 of them must be a rapist and one of the girls must be a victim.
Statistically incorrect (nice anecdotal evidence though). Only 6% of men are rapists, so in a room of 100 men, 6 are likely to be rapists. And of those 6, 8% of them were falsely accused
You should be asking yourself why you assume Gira is telling the truth here. He has no evidence either.
>>62968380
>feministy on her twitter
Or rather, you are a slut shaming Culture Warrior, out for vengeance
>>62968407
Okay so you have nothing when you called swans basically rape core. as expected. fuck off troll
>>62968407
>You should be asking yourself why you assume Gira is telling the truth here. He has no evidence either.
The voice of reason.
>>62968431
>Okay so you have nothing when you called swans basically rape core.
Nothing, except the specific evidence I already told you.
Read the thread.
Gira didn't write that often about rape. Big Black had a lot more songs about violence against women (Fists of Love, Shotgun, Fish Fry to name a few). Rapeman didn't have a lot of violent lyrics, but feminists still used the name to discredit Albini back in the 80s.
David Yow had Lay Screaming (with Scratch Acid) and Puss (The Jesus Lizard) which are way more graphic than anything Swans ever did.
But none of these people are "rape core" or actually condoning violence against women.
>>62968407
I'm not siding with Gira. I do thing third wave feminism garbage is hurting the actual rape victims, like Gira's own wife and girls on third world countries.
There's something odd in how Larkim has worded all of this. But its their problem. Nobody should be picking sides.
>>62968459
>I'm not siding with Gira
So do you admit he could be a rapist?
>like Gira's own wife and girls on third world countries.
Misdirection.
>There's something odd in how Larkim has worded all of this
Like what? It seems legit.
>>62968281
Not a guy you replied to, but what does it change?
"Innocent until proven guilty" rule exists for a reason, and that's because it's always hard to prove you DIDN'T do something. Pretty much every law system around the world recognizes this since defendant is already in a hard position the moment someone makes an accusation against him.
Problem in these times is that "justice" is not only sought in courts, but also on the internet since it's the medium that allows for easy way to share your story with many people around the world, and those people also have the ability to judge and deploy moral sanctions (although there are cases where it's questionable how moral they are).
Difference between court and those people is that courts job is to be objective and just in the process of making its decision, on the other side SJWs sanction others according to their own agenda.
People must realize that they have more power than they think, and as they say "with great power comes great responsibility." If we are going to judge someone and potentially ruin his life in doing so, then we must also value proofs above anything else, just like the court does.
>>62968407
>slut shaming culture warrior
what did he mean by this?
>>62968498
>Not a guy you replied to, but what does it change?
What we were talking about. Nice goalpost shifting
>>62968445
you laid zero examples you buffon. we all know gira raped her. But this new album is ruined because of idiots like yourself refusing to listen to swans and discredit everybody who has worked on the album. because of gira
anyway you're just trolling to piss off /pol/tards have fun wasting your day. I'm heading to smoothie king :)
>>62968532
>you laid zero examples you buffon.
See >>62968226
>But this new album is ruined because of idiots like yourself refusing to listen to swans
>you need to listen to what I say you should!
Wow.
>anyway you're just trolling to piss off /pol/tards have fun wasting your day.
I'm at work right now. Have fun getting fat.
>>62968508
.He's just a troll and an idiot. Probably thinks Larkin will give him head if he spouts off enough SJW buzz words.
>>62968531
that's not how oration works why are you using pseudo intellectual buzz-word terminology (that you don't even understand the meaning of)?
literally the only thing that's happened so far is 3 people contradicting each other on facebook how have people already "picked sides"
>>62968473
Not really. My idea of rape includes phisical violence, murder... you get the idea.
As for Larkim, this rubs me the wrong way
>At a certain point I turned off my phone, practiced the mantra meditation I learned in Nepal, and practiced yoga with a friend. This centered me and allowed me to continue my attempts to handle this situation with wisdom and compassion.
>Today was much better. Michael's statement is basically an admission of guilt, and underscores my message that we must all learn the meaning of consent so there are no blurred lines between sex and rape.
Thats before she starts on the whole "statistics" bullshit. It reads like well crafted narrative. It doesn't read sincere. I'm aware is subjective as fuck, but it feels odd.
>>62968583
Nice retort but how are the goalposts not being shifted here?
>>62968606
>My idea of rape includes phisical violence, murder... you get the idea
Oh you just don't know what rape is, Why didn't you just say that initially?
>this rubs me the wrong way
>Yoga meditation
>I disagree with his official stance
What's the problem?
>It reads like well crafted narrative
Are you making a well-crafted narrative as well? Surely the White male is the victim here, right? Not the "Feminazi"
>>62968547
>I'm at work right now. Have fun getting fat.
iM GETTING A PROTEIN SHAKE
have a Nice day faggot
>>62965849
yes and you should be able to as well
>>62968572
>SJW buzz words
Looks like we found the slut-shaming culture warrior.
>>62968642
Enjoy your diabetes
>>62968639
>Oh you just don't know what rape is, Why didn't you just say that initially?
I'm from a third world country stupid. Here girls get their head smashed against rocks and abandonned in the desert. Here, survivors don't practice matras learned in Nepal.
But what would you third worlders care, am i right?
>>62968678
*first
>>62968673
Explain what a slut shaming culture warrior is, please. Enlighten me.
>>62968639
because he was making the same fucking point, the justice system is integral to society and it's processes do not lose worth in day to day life captain mong of the ss wankbank
>>62968698
It's somebody who doesn't celebrate every shitty thing a woman does.
>>62968678
>I'm from a third world country stupid
Opinion invalidated
>>62968714
Quote me where I said he was guilty.
I would completely stop listening to anyone if I found out they were a liberal
>>62967884
...
>>62968848
I can't do that. I'd imagine about 99% of the indie rock bands I listen to are liberals. I know most of the punk and hardcore bands are flaming socialists.
I still like swans, but I did sell my vinyl of filth (as well as all my other vinyls) mostly due to the fact that I'm really poor.
I don't know Iif gira did it or not but honestly I don't care.
>>62968779
Having sex drunk and regreting it 8 years later is not rape, no matter how much you want to pretend the rest of the world doesn't exist.
And the whole drama is pointless, because there's no way to prove one version or another. Swans fans will keep listening the music, as you can see in this very thread.
>>62968979
it's not that she had sex and regretted it, she passed out and woke up to find him fucking her. if that's not rape to you, you have to admit that it was nonconsensual.
>>62965849
I don't give a shit about any of this
>>62968979
>And the whole drama is pointless, because there's no way to prove one version or another. Swans fans will keep listening the music, as you can see in this very thread.
See >>62968146
The music itself is obviously unaffected, but this garbage certainly harms the momentum of the band's career. Badly.
>>62969057
Of course, that's assuming the album is unchanged. Some have predicted Gira will edit some of the lyrics.
>>62965849
i am still able to enjoy Swans' more beautiful works (Soundtracks, Love of Life, etc.) just as i did prior to this whole thing
though the aggressive force behind Swans' more brutal albums has been amplified. i listened to Public Castration soon after Gira admitted to the rape, it was a fucking insane experience. even though i believe that the emotional abuse/sexual harassment (the real problem that Larkin emphasizes) never happened
>>62968979
>Having sex drunk and regreting it 8 years later is not rape
No but slipping your tip into the vag of a drunk chick who specifically said "don't touch me" is. Didn't you see the rape awareness video when you started college?
>And the whole drama is pointless since it doesn't effect me
Nice
>because there's no way to prove one version or another.
I didn't say otherwise. but there is a 92% chance he did it.
>Swans fans will keep listening the music, as you can see in this very thread.
I'm glad they can listen to probable rapists and not be effected.
>>62969021
Is there any hard evidence to support that claim? If you are gonna pass a sanction on someone who has allegedly raped someone else (and don't pretend moral sanctions can't be even heavier than legal ones), then you must base that decision on evidence.
If you are gonna have a hand in ruining someone's life just because someone else accused him of doings something without any proof, then you aren't taking lives of others seriously at all.
It's really scary how people claim politicians pass laws and make decisions according to their own agenda, while they are doing exactly the same thing... actually it's even worse, since immoral laws can still provide some kind of security, while the ability to ruin someone's life just because you wanna be a part of "progressive culture" does nothing of sort.
>>62965849
just because he stuck his dick into someone while they both were drunk as shit doesn't mean he has a rapist mentality
>>62969192
There are statistics what percent of blacks ends up in jail and how low is the average black person's IQ compared to Asians and Whites. For a start.
I'm sure you - as a devoted SJW - spout those statistics as fervently as that one about what percent of men SHOULD be rapists whenever any social issues involving blacks are discussed.
>>62969192
>I didn't say otherwise. but there is a 92% chance he did it.
Duh... First of all, you can't measure that kind of stuff with percents and second, even if the number you provided was somehow correct, 8% chance of someone NOT DOING something that could lead to severe legal and/or moral sanctions is a pretty big uncertainty in the eyes of pretty much everyone who has any sense of responsibility.
But really though, I don't expect SJWs who've spent their whole lives being spoiled and sheltered, to have it.
>>62969214
i mean Gira basically admitted to it on facebook.
i agree with you though. rape is extremely serious and should be taken very slowly
>>62969316
*seriously. fuck i'm an idiot
>>62969316
>Gira basically admitted to it on facebook
Am I missing something? The only thing concerning this on his profile is him sharing his wife's post on the matter.
There was also that post in which he said he's gonna contact his lawyer (which is always a right choice in these matters regardless of you being innocent or guilty), but even now I can't find anything about him admitting to it.
>>62969480
He said he was naked with her, but they didn't consummate the relationship. He said cheating on his wife was an awkward mistake, but he never admitted to raping her. FFS.
>>62969480
Pitchfork has a statement from Gira's publicist
http://pitchfork.com/news/63799-swans-michael-gira-issues-statement-on-rape-accusations-larkin-grimm-responds/
>>62965849
you know she's just exaturating for attention cause who has honestly given a fuck about fucking Larkin Grimm in the last 5 years
>>62969602
Did anybody ever care for her shitty music? Even with Dirty Projectors, they didn't get great until after she was long gone.
>>62969640
she claims the rape ruined her ability to play and write songs.
>>62969682
But she had no ability before the phantom rape either.
>>62969526
Uhh... Admitting that you cheated on your wife =/= raping someone.
>>62969551
Admitting that you had a consensual erotic experience with someone (guess I'm making buzz words myself now) =/= Admitting you raped someone
---------
I mean, I always found Gira a bit creepy, and never really got into Swans, but even if I hated him for some other reason, I would't go ahead to call him a rapist without decisive evidence...
Being known as a rapist wherever you go is a stigma no one wants to carry, especially those who don't deserve to be branded as such... I mean whoever is going to be like "He must have done it! There's no proof that he did, but I will support ruining his life!" should ask themselves "What if I ended up being falsely accused myself of commiting a crime one day?"
As I said somewhere up there, "It's sometimes impossible to prove you DIDN'T do something", and anyway, most modern justice systems have one thing in common - they agree that it's better to let 9 guilty people get away, than to sanction one innocent person. There's even a quote like that in one of the books I'm studying from at the moment.
>>62969728
that's all semantics she claims this is about business and white man like gira have ruined her career
if you can't get over someones personal life to enjoy their music you're a sensitive faggot
if hitler made some bangers it wouldn't sway me one way or the other than he happened to kill a few kikes.
this why nobody admits they like kanye (at least where I live)
honestly if you can't separate the music from any artist you're fucking stupid.
Either way, he didn't rape her.
And this:
>I said no to you many times before that day, begged you not to interfere with me sexually, even made it a part of a verbal agreement we had when I signed a contract with you. I asked you to promise that you would never have sex with me
I mean, who the hell begs someone to never have sex with them and (kinda) considers it a part of their contract?
Was Gira known as sexual predator prior to these accusations? If he wasn't, then what the hell made her think so?
And anyway, if she really considered him as such, why would she think that she would be safe if she begged him not to do something sexual with her...
You westerners are so simple yet so complicated.
>>62969299
>First of all, you can't measure that kind of stuff with percents
>what are statistics
>8% chance of someone NOT DOING something that could lead to severe legal and/or moral sanctions is a pretty big uncertainty in the eyes of pretty much every Swans fanboy
No shit.
>>62969295
>There are statistics what percent of blacks ends up in jail and how low is the average black person's IQ compared to Asians and Whites. For a start.
Incorrect conclusions. Nice try
/mu/ separates art from artists in a select few cases.
Kanye West, Michael Gira, Burzum...Any pitchfork darlings, basically.
This thread is filled with beta males. Who the fuck cares if she got raped, she is probably just another raging feminist anyways.
swans fans aren't emotionally intelligent enough to not be rape apologist
>>62969742
shit i just reread it and just saw the "consensual" portion of it.
it's really just he said she said
>>62970245
Burzum is a pitchfork darling? Say what?
>Can you separate the artist's music from who they are as a person?
... how can you do the opposite? Like, who can't enjoy something because they don't like who made it?
I still listen to Burzum, despite him thinking that a tabletop rpg is the key to awakening who you were in a past life.
>>62971981
I was more annoyed by his anti-Christianity than his politics. It's pretty dumb to say all Christians are idiots, when he took his band name from a word coined by a devout Catholic.
>>62966107
>genuinely thinking a woman would want to be known as a rape victim for the rest of her life
>>62972013
I dunno, him burning down that church is what got me to listen to him in the first place.
Sounds like you don't listen to enough metal, OP. Burzum's first five albums are held in high regard despite the artist being an arsonist and murderer.
In Hip Hop MF Grimm was already set to go to jail when he made A Ghetto Opera with MF DOOM.
The producer Kesha has spoken against has made a fuck ton of songs that were hits or are hits that people enjoy.
Boop
>>62966090
Is this the newest attentioncore meme? Grimm: "didn´t want to ruin his life", Ke$ha: "don´t want to put him in jail".
>>62972019
i think this woman might. it will add to her zany, wild life. a perfect story for her bio.
>>62972988
They say that so they don't feel bad when they do exactly that. My friend almost got arrested for "rape" but comments like that saved his ass.
>Friend has drunk sex with girl
>They see each other on and off for a month or so, then break contact
>2 years later she files a police report against him for rape
>When the police interview the girl's roommate, they learn of a very interesting conversation
>Girl says to roommate "I don't want to get (the guy) in trouble, I want to get their fraternity in trouble. They are all potential rapists who are promoting rape culture, and they deserve to be punished"
>With this information, DA rejects the case
>Girl goes silent for months, then starts sounding off on facebook, naming friend by name as a rapist and saying the only reason he isn't in jail is because she chose to drop the charges rather than relive her "terrible rape experience" in court, which of course is bull shit
Women. Not even once.
He just put pp in sleeping woman how will that affect his music jesus cristo
What he did was tame compared to what other artists done
>>62973135
Anonymous BJs from traps are just as good as vaginal sex anyway.
That's it. Gira is officially done and bankrupt: http://themusic.com.au/news/all/2016/02/29/swans-michael-gira-cancels-aussie-tour-amid-rape-allegations/
And all of this after announcing this four months ago: http://themusic.com.au/news/all/2015/11/12/michael-gira-of-swans-unveils-additional-aussie-shows/
This is only the beginning of the downfall of Swans.
Also, while you're at the subject, it seems that Grimm has finally escaped her artistic block induced by the negative effects of sexual assault. Here is her latest song—'I Don't Believe' (dedicated to the brutally, cruelly, mercilessly, viciously, and savagely abused survivors in cold blood: http://www.nme.com/news/michael-gira/91918
I still love Phil Spector as a producer, but have zero respect for him as the disgusting slimeball of a person he is.
I'm still conflicted about my feelings on Joe Meek.
>>62973821
>I've been raped
>By the way, here's my new music
I hate her so much
>>62972013
Probably because he found out that hating on Christians is actually okay right now because you don't get any charges for it (unlike racism and antisemitism, which he also preaches)
>Mr. Gira is a very inspiring man. He is also a truly good, kindhearted person. Not everybody realizes that about him because his music is so intense. I think I could work in the studio with that guy forever and be happy.
>2016
>I told Michael that he had had sex with me against my will and that I didn't feel safe with him any more.
>>62966290
>Considering an artists discography for the sake of continuity is handy but not necessary and adds nothing to appreciation.
what the hell does this have to do with the rest of your post or the topic at hand?
>>62973884
Gotta take advantage of all that unprecedented attention.
>>62966325
It's hard to listen to something personal like Drainland though
>>62966325
As most music is an expression of the artist not all explicitly states who they are as a person and their ideals. It's like GG Alin, who clearly stated who he was and what he was about, compared to Burzum who's music is walls of sounds with growls and cryptic phrases that don't even make sense in his native language. They are both horrible people, for different reasons, but one puts their horribleness out there for all to see and the other makes art you could appreciate outside of who he is.
>>62966498
If you're listening to punk you shouldn't seperate the art from the artist
You can separate the music from the person, and you frankly have to, because we're all shitty human beings who have made a ton of mistakes and hurt a ton of people, and to hold musicians to some higher standard than anyone else is kind of setting yourself up for disappointment.
That said, if you buy swans' music or see him live, I can understand feeling conflicted about putting money into the pocket of a rapist. If you feel like you don't want to monetarily support someone who has committed a certain act, that's entirely in your jurisdiction and you have the right to support whoever you want to support for whatever reason.
But Gira isn't less of a talent because of recent events.
>>62966516
Early swans had absolutely brutal lyrics, why would the music just now become impure?
>>62966357
>rape is a home invasion with a ski mask
>tfw there are morons who believe this
>>62968159
>muh career
MJ's career didn't end because of what he allegedly did and he actually went to court. Roman Polanksi, who actually was guilty, still managed to continue his career as well. You people act like one accusation is enough to stop creative output; if you genuinely believe that, you're a fucking moron.
