ITT: Jazz hacks.
>Albert Ayler
Zorn
>>61516764
This.
Wasn't a fan a few years back when I first listened to him but since I kept reading reviews that his works were "a new kind of jazz" or "turning classical music on its head" I gave him another listen. Dude's songs sound like Coltrane with an ebow..
Pharaoh Sanders
>>61516764
Ayler is great, Sanders is great, but this piece of shit blows ass.
>>61517214
desu I was trolling. I love Ayler.
He was batshit insane tho.
>>61517214
Zorn has a lot of shitty music but I'd still rather listen to a Zorn album than one by Sanders or Ayler any day of the week.
>>61517332
Pleb
>>61516741
Monk. :)
But he chose to be a hack.
>>61516741
desu there are few real hacks in jazz because they would have been caught with their pants down. there's no pretending when you're playing jazz. however there are some major jazz artists who have displayed a lack of good taste throughout most of their career and mingus is certainly one of them.
kenny g
>>61519064
>mingus is certainly one of them
how so?
>>61519126
Joe pass
Chick Corea.
>>61516764
>>61516741
No.
>>61517117
Yes.
>>61519138
what's mingus' association with joe pass and what's wrong with him? maybe new to jazz a bit, but from what I've heard his aight
>>61519173
I agree with your nos and yeses, but not that Chick Corea's a hack. why do you think so?
>>61519126
he can't stick to the essentials. his music is way too busy, like ellington on steroids.
>>61519221
...thats why it's good though. It's busy but it's all composed amazingly
>>61519221
his music sounds minimal to me. he's really good at making every instrument stand out even though everything's playing different things at once
>>61519214
I think he plays it safe, specially on his fusion period.
>>61516741
miles davis was something of a hack when he started recording with charlie parker. but he ended up alright knowing his limitations.
>>61519221
>he can't stick to the essentials
What do you mean by this? His music was pretty firmly rooted in the fundamentals of bop, swing and the blues.
He was forward thinking and gave these older forms a more modern post-bop sound but he also composed plenty of stuff in his younger days that sound like they could have come straight from another era if you're that much of a traditionalist that Mingus is too modern for you.
>>61519364
it has nothing to do with tradition. it means he cannot stick to the necessary. his music is too hectic. he's basically showing off.
whatever floats your boat, but i absolutely loathe sinner lady. i cannot get through it.
>>61519192
Didn't mean to reply to that post,
And listen to some later joe pass the dude is just cheesy. i hate how he is treated like a guitar god by people that don't understand jazz
>>61517117
Yeah pretty much
Karma is alright but people who hold it up as a pinnacle of jazz kinda irk me. Maybe that's just me
Also, hot opinion coming through
>electric Miles
>>61519569
>>electric Miles
miles in general desu. he hardly had any chops nor was he a great composer. he sure could get a band together though.
>>61519569
>when Miles turned into a crazy cat lady with a red trumpet
>>61519415
>he cannot stick to the necessary. his music is too hectic.
How are you judging a musical idea to determine whether it is "necessary"?
In any case, even if you don't feel like listening to it all the time, being maximalist is hardly a criticism and much of Mingus' output wasn't even all that elaborate. Black Saint is actually a real standout album in his discog in how many ideas and traditions influenced it and in how big the arrangement is.
Some of his best work was done with smaller groups.
>he's basically showing off.
You're listening to the wrong genre if virtuosity and complex composition bother you.
>>61519628
He was a great bandleader and that was his strength. It's not the compositions of his that are strong, but on ESP and Birth Of The Cool, the distinct personalities of the players mesh together and make for excellent records.
His electric period established a huge ensemble and people just stopped listening to one another. There was just too much going on
>>61519631
Kek
>>61519636
>You're listening to the wrong genre if virtuosity and complex composition bother you.
rubbish. i like jazz as much as anyone else. making arrangements as busy as possible (wall of sound) for whatever purpose is what i would call showing off. sinner lady isn't all that complex though, just really fucking noisy.
1. Charlie Mingus
2. Thelonious Monk
3. Miles Davis
4. John Coltrane
5. Ornette Coleman
>>61519773
Fairly accurate
Miles was better in his electric years until 1977
Louis Armstrong
Duke Ellington
Charlie Parker
Dizzy Gillespie
Dave Brubeck
Cannonball Adderly
I always hear people say Sun Ra was a hack, I'm kinda surprised he hasn't been mentioned yet. I don't really think he's a hack myself though, nor do I think most of the artists in this thread are
>>61519712
Do you mean harmonically? Because the whole piece basically flows as one composition with a huge variety in different sections, varied instrumentation and scoring, huge build up and change in dynamics, etc.
Often, it's built around ostinatos and simple progressions but the piece as a whole is really complex in the way it's constructed structurally and the number of moods and ideas it cycles through.
Anyone on the ECM label
wynton marsalis
>>61519867
>Louis Armstrong
>Duke Ellington
>Charlie Parker
kill your self
>>61519945
This, basically. Made starkly clear in the last episode of Ken Burns Jazz
>>61519867
I could see the argument for Brubeck but otherwise nah
>>61519922
>it's built around ostinatos and simple progressions but the piece as a whole is really complex in the way it's constructed structurally
read that line over a couple a times and see if it actually makes sense to you yourself.
it's repetitious garbage played by many instruments to make it sound interesting and difficult... anyway, i'll leave it at that. i can't stand mingus. let's agree to disagree.
>>61516764
His best work isn't jazz.
all of them
>>61520002
What about that line doesn't make sense?
Nobody we've heard of was LITERALLY a talentless hack.
Except maybe Pat Metheny
>>61520028
>What about that line doesn't make sense?
that it's built around SIMPLE progressions but is STRUCTURALLY complex
>>61520052
Plenty of pieces are like that. Most of Monk for example
>>61520052
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_structure
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmony
>>61520052
You mean you can't understand it?
>>61520070
>Most of Monk for example
who is a hack.
>>61520114
Epic :)
How do I upvote on this site?
>>61520104
just having different sections in your big musical suite doesn't make it complex. honestly, fats waller & louis armstrong recorded music in the 1920s that was more complex than anything on sinner lady.
>>61520114
You haven't listened to enough monk then. Or you are musically retarded.
>>61520142
how about some citations on that senpai
>>61520157
i have to rephrase that. monk CHOSE to be a hack. instead of playing music he chose to fool around because he was 'special'. fuck that.
>>61520181
I think you're very confused about music and art in general.
Unless you're on of those rad cons that only listens to German Baroque because muh heritage.
>>61520233
hardly. i prefer people who play honest music. i love satchmo, bird, bud powell, fats navarro more than anything. sincerity man, that's what it's about for me. not fake intellectualism.
>>61520181
He was more than likely schizophrenic (he definitely wasnt all there, according to his wife and son) so ya know.
>>61520278
back to the indie it goes!
Kamasi Washington
Wayne Shorter
Herbie Hancock
Sun ra
>>61520142
complex:
consisting of many different and connected parts.
>having different connected parts in your big musical suite doesn't make it complex
I think I'm missing something here.
>>61520278
>too smart for me hurr durr
>>61520288
>He was more than likely schizophrenic
wouldn't surprise me. those early recordings with the hawk... man he could actually play the piano!
>>61520278
You know Monk was literally schizophrenic right?
His wild divergence from harmonic norms was certainly not intellectually contrived. That being said your argument that authenticity is a critical component of artistic merit needs some premises.
>>61520303
Would've been a good list had you not added wayne shorter
>>61519813
Legit question why are these hacks?
Or am I being bated.
>>61520325
>You know Monk was literally schizophrenic right?
i didn't know this was proven or anything. but if he was, it would explain a lot.
>>61520354
Its a list of probably the five most famous bop players decide for yourself whether its bait
>>61520354
You're being baited
>>61520386
>bop players
Nigga wat
>>61520303
Hancock I agree to because Rockit happened
Washington is actually authentic but lacks any sort of talent to warrant such a high status
Sun Ra is kind of a hack but that's not to say I don't really enjoy some of his work
Shorter isn't a hack
>>61520387
it's bait for kids who believe jazz started in 1959
jazz died in 1959.
>>61520378
Obviously its impossible to say with certainty now, and none of his next of kin have been at all public about Monk's personal life but there is extant medical documentation that confirms that Monk was seperately diagnosed with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder
>>61520278
I see what you mean and how it would apply to sinner lady but that's about it. listen to other more bop mingus with smaller groups. no idea what you're thinking of re. monk
>>61520421
>medical documentation that confirms that Monk was seperately diagnosed with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder
like i said, it wouldn't surprise me. still doesn't make me like his music though. he could really play if he wanted to...
bud powell had mental issues but was an absolute master as far as i'm concerned. o well, subjectivity is king & all that
>>61519415
Go listen to blues & roots
>>61520498
>no idea what you're thinking of re. monk
i've always felt that monks naivité was pretty much fake. "let's play it ugly & awkward instead of nice" mentality... maybe he was sick. i dunno.
>>61520543
it sounds more like scriabin or something rather than naive or trying to be naive. all about colors and gestures
>>61520566
lol. if you say so.
>>61520566
On the last tour he ever did he never spoke a single word to any of his band mates other than goodnight, he would hide away for days and then come out all frantic and spinning around (literally)
>>61516741
>>61516764
>>61517117
>I cant get into freejazz this just hurts my ears guys :(((((((
>>61519628
>>61519773
>>61519867
>hacks
the contrarianism is as unsurprising as it is hilarious
>>61520600
schizo and naive aren't the same at all though
>>61520625
uncertain jazz babbies are as unsurprising as they are hilarious
>>61520622
Tis an acquired taste
>>61520642
nobody's saying that. if however he as indeed sick that would (might?) explain some of the weird (musical) choices he made and somewhat change my perception of the guy... without at all becoming a fan of course.
>>61520642
If we are discussing his style, i think it is totally appropriate to bring up that he was a flaming madman
>>61519214
I think it's more like he fell off than that he's a hack. The 60's stuff is still pretty good.
He's also a scientologist who tries to convert his band members, so he's also a piece of shit, but not quite a hack just because of "now he sings now he sobs"
>>61520655
Pharaoh Sanders is not that hard to get into though, I also prefer the free nature of their music much more than say Bird or Sonny Rollins, it just speaks to me much more when they dont try to play as technical or as harmonic possible.
>>61519905
The idea that any major figure in jazz was a hack is ridiculous. Kenny G is the only one in this thread who can be called a hack at jazz, but he doesn't even play jazz.
>>61520802
it hardly develops though
>Monk generally based his writing on conventional 12- and 32-bar structures; his comps. are distinguished by their melodic originality and the harmonic substructure. As a pianist, he employed a highly idiosyncratic style based on the Harlem stride tradition. In his solos he combined a highly original, often surprising sense of rhythm and melody, with a distinctive attack and timbre.
dat subtle originality=hack
>>61520052
I hate to break it to you but everyone with a >90 IQ now thinks you're a fucking moron for saying that.
pic related: typical fan of free jazz
listen to pop music instead, like the bee gees
>>61520181
He chose to be one of the most important figures in music. Phineas Newborn chose to play technically stunning music that affected basically nothing.
You're welcome to your wrong opinions, but they are wrong.
>>61520883
>You're welcome to your wrong opinions, but they are wrong.
thanks!. i honestly don't give a fuck though because i hardly ever listen to jazz post 1950s.
>>61520834
Ehh, some of it can be pretty excesive in length but I mostly get really entranced and immersed by it. I listen to a lot of other minimalist stuff aswell though.
>>61520852
the structure still consists of the different chords you stupid cunt. if the progression is fucking simple so is the structure. i'll leave your iq alone.
>>61520874
>>61520908
I swear I didn't know,
This is definitely the most embarrassing thread I've seen on /mu/ this year so far.
>>61520981
become a poptimist, today!
>>61520996
hardly though,.... some actual discussion going on itt. not like that /classical/ EARS guy who think she know his shit but really does not.
>>61520996
>people discussing music
>on /mu/
ikr
>>61521116
If this is what qualifies as a music "discussion", it's only reinforcing my statement, really.
>>61520852
I'd already made that decision way earlier in the thread.
