After thoroughly exploring prog rock I returned to this album and can conclude that it's by far the best the genre has to offer.
>>61411555
it's not even in ProgArchives top 5 so no
>>61411555
Rush - Hemispheres
>>61411555
But it's not even in the top 5 King Crimson albums
>>61411636
>>61411815
I hope you're fucking joking
That's nice honey
Now go outside and play with your friends
>>61411636
I never tell people that their comparisons are retarded and I don't even find ItCotCK the pinnacle of classic prog (that would be Relayer perhaps), but you can't seriously compare Rush to KC.
>>61411844
Their 80's stuff is pretty similar.
And Moving pictures is the pinnacle of prog
>>61411555
Close to the truth.
What do you think about:
>Van der Graaf Generator - Pawn Hearts
>Faust - Faust
>Henry Cow - In Praise of Learning & Unrest
>Frank Zappa - Uncle Meat
>tfw I bought a vinyl copy solely for the meme cover and have never listened to it
If you leave out Kraut and Canterbury stuff maybe.
>>61411992
it's actually pretty great
>>61411992
it's pretty great, phamo
come on, that's not even the best King Crimson album
>>61411555
>What is Gentle Giant
>>61411822
What's wrong with Selling England by the Pound? Sure, it's campier than KC usually is but it's a great album. Phenomenal pacing, tight playing.
Agreed that ItCotKC isn't even the best King Crimson album though
Abstract and unconventional without being incoherent and unlistenable
Now Playing:
ıllıllı [Mats/Morgan - The Music Or The Money... (1997)] ıllıllı
At this point I don't know if the Rush being the pinnacle of prog is still a meme or some people are genuinely believing it.
>>61411982
Not him, but
>Van der Graaf Generator - Pawn Hearts
Great, but not Top Tier
>Faust - Faust
Top Tier candidate
>Henry Cow - In Praise of Learning & Unrest
Top Tier Candidate
>Frank Zappa - Uncle Meat
Not Top Tier Candidate
>>61412740
>Canterbury
No Canterbury compares to ITCOTCK, really
>>61412790
But that one isn't Prog
>>61412793
Great, but not Top Tier
>>61413660
Not really part of the Prog tradition
>>61413970
When are you going to fucking kill yourself
>>61413970
>Red
>Not prog
Oh god.
>>61414260
Why do you think it is?
Just because King Crimson did it doesn't make it automatically Prog.
>>61411555
Try Emerson Lake and Palmer senpai
>pic very related
>>61411948
So you like wank
>>61412790
come on, that's not even the best King Crimson album
>>61411555
Did you somehow manage to skip the rest of King Crimson's discography in your exploration of prog rock?
Also, as a side note, all prog is shit outside of KC, TMV, early Pink Floyd (not prog anyway) and krautrock.
>>61414875
Also VDGG
>>61414875
>TMV
Bait
>>61414898
>doesn't like TMV
afraid of the future confirmed
>>61414898
Sounds like someone let the mariachi slipknot meme influence their opinion.
Protip: Most straight prog isn't that great. Avoid symphonic prog at all costs unless you want to die of boredom. Also, avoid ELP, Jethro Tull, Soft Machine, Gentle Giant, and Genesis, they're also boring. Not terrible, but boring. So is a lot of Canterbury shit which is heavy with jazz-influence and wanking, except for like National Health. Check out Scandinavian and northern Europe prog soloists like Jukka Tolonen and Pekka Pohjola and Jan Akkerman. American prog gets better in the mid-late 70s with Happy The Man and Dixie Dregs. When it comes to 80s prog, listen to King Crimson, Ozric Tentacles, and Djam Karet.
>>61411555
This is certainly one of the strongest candidates. Moonchild ruins it though.
>>61411883
I think this one is the best.
>>61411815
Not even the best Genesis album.
>>61414884
I hope you're not implying the Wall is the greatest prog album of all time. That would be embarrassing.
>>61411844
Relayer isn't even Yes's best album, Close to the Edge is, that being said....
>>61411555
Close to the Edge - Yes
Larks Tongue in Aspic - KC
Aqualung - Jethro Tull
First Utterance - Comus
Selling England by the Pound - Genesis
Camembert Electrique - Gong
There are also some great fusion/prog albums like those of Jan Akkerman and Mahavishnu Orchestra (Profile and Birds of Fire respectively).
>>61414741
ELP sucks huge dicks
>>61415193
ELP is just slightly below Yes
>>61415228
Unlike ELP, Yes actually has a few stellar albums. ELP has 1 passable record in Pictures at an Exhibition.
Genesis is my jam tbqhwy familia
but I love all forms of prog, and there's many other greats out there like Jethro Tull, Yes, KC and many others of course. It's up to preference
>>61415271
BSS and Tarkus are both as good as Yes' Fragile
>>61415311
Tarkus is awful, I have no idea why its so highly loved. BSS is a joke, a really bad joke. Fragile is Yes's 3rd best album, maybe even 4th.
>>61415352
It's as awful as Fragile. Fragile even sounds like ELP at times.
>>61415450
I'm not going to disagree with you too much because I'm not a fan of Fragile. I love Close to the Edge; Relayer and Tormato are also good imho, but Fragile just seemed unfinished.
>>61415577
My point is that thinking that ELP "sucks huge dicks", and then saying Yes is some f the best artists the genre has to offers seems to be a little bit inconsistent considering how similar they both are.
>>61415685
I never said Yes is one of the best artists prof has to offer you tard, I said Close to the Edge is on par with ITCOTCK and then I said I liked 2 other Yes albums.
>>61415311
Tarkus is a joke. The b side is all trash
>>61415805
The point is almost the same.
My point is that thinking that ELP "sucks huge dicks", and then saying CttE is on par with ITCOTCK seems to be a little bit inconsistent considering how similar ELP's work is when compared to CttE.
>>61415826
You don't like it? That's fine, but that doesn't mean it's bad.
>>61415685
They're both symphonic prog, but that's it. ELP is wank prog. Listen to ELP's "Hoedown" and tell me Yes did anything remotely close to as obnoxious "ey look at us we classical but we rock we doo doo in yo mouth with our technical prowess" ELP uses obnoxious synth in a LOT of their songs. And Yes uses Jon Anderson, which isn't anywhere close to as bad.
>>61415858
ELP doesn't "sound" anything like Close to the Edge, are you on crack? ELP is mostly keyboard wankery. yes actually displays some virtuosity and songwriting skills.
>>61415879
dude are you me?
>>61415915 (me)
>>61415940
Yeah pretty much. I was surprised that there was a very similar reply shortly after mine.
>>61415879
Yes is wank too... Have you ever seen a video of their live concerts from the time? It's some of the wankiest stuff ever...
>"ey look at us we classical but we rock we doo doo in yo mouth with our technical prowess"
Just like Fragile?
>ELP uses obnoxious synth in a LOT of their songs.
Yes uses obnoxious guitars too
>>61415915
CttE does have some similitude with BSS. If you don't want to hear them that's another story...
>yes actually displays some virtuosity and songwriting skills
Sounds to me like you enjoy Yes' wankery more than ELP's, instead of actually claiming why one of them is better than the other.
>>61415956
If I wanted to listen to wankery I'd listen to Jan Akkerman or something. ELP isn't even good at it.
>>61416018
Same. It proves how fast and complicated they can play, but nothing else.
>>61415352
it's highly loved because it looks like the kind of thing a kid in middle school would doodle on the back of a notebook and that's relatable
>>61416056
Prog in a nutshell
>>61415993
Live performances aren't what we are talking about is it. And no, the 1972 live performance of CTTE was pretty accurate.
ELP-Slapping a keyboard, generic jazz played as fast as possible
Yes - actually displays some great picking technique in CTTE. The title track has maybe 2 spots with some unnecessary guitar work (that really fast scale) but the rest of the album is pretty straightforward songwriting, basically radio friendly tunes put together with progressive transitions (ELP also sucks are transitions, not very subtle).
>>61416070
Not really
>>61415993
ELP never could build its virtuosity to anything significant. Yes would wank its way into a beautiful chorus, ELP would wank its way into more wank.
>>61416119
>ELP-Slapping a keyboard, generic jazz played as fast as possible
Was it fast? Yes
Was it fast for speed's sake? No
Why? Because their music was filled with exciting moments and catchy melodies.
>The title track has maybe 2 spots with some unnecessary guitar work (that really fast scale)
The one at the beginning of the song? Because that moment is one of the bests from the album when the voices come in.
>ELP also sucks are transitions, not very subtle
I disagree with this, but is subtlety a desirable trait? Non subtle transitions can make up for greater excitement in music.
>>61416169
Except for making some great and exciting music filled with catchy melodies.
>ELP would wank its way into more wank.
Some good wank
>>61414741
>>61415271
Britches don't know about trilogy.
>>61415993
Look, Yes were definitely more of an arena group live. Your only point I'll agree with is they definitely did wank live. But in the studio, the groups are entirely different. The only real want and endless soloing I've heard is Gates of Delirium (which I think moves along nicely and effectively and maintains the excitement. Musically, I just think it all makes sense, but that's a different story.)
The classical elements on Fragile are so much more reserved. Yes, Cans and Brahms sounds stupid, but it isn't offensive. The tune bounces and dances a bit and doesn't get too complicated. Mood for a Day is the other classical nod, and that's a very restrained, relatively quiet tune. Very expressive. Uhh.. The chorus of Roundabout has some arpeggios. The beginning uses guitar harmonics effectively. South Side of the Sky has the interlude in the middle. Softer but swelling. Very dynamic. Very expressive keyboard work. Shows off some musicality. Heart of the Sunrise features a recapitulation.
Now take Karn Evil 9. If you removed the bass and drums, you'd have what sounds like a fairly complete classical suite. Especially Second Impression. They show off their influences FAR more than Yes do. The music is much faster-paced, and the instrumental passages can go on for a really long time. I mean, the "song" takes up nearly 30 minutes, man..
>>61416218
Their study albums were filled with wank too.
Your concept of "offensive" music is kind of funny too.
I don't see anything wrong with your description of Karn Evil 9. Also, the song is less than the double length of CttE, I don't see how that changes things.
>>61416188
>Is subtlety a desirable trait.
not necesarily
>Non subtle transitions can make up for greater excitement in music.
Not when you use them all the time. Think about CTTE after the organ comes in, and there is an abrupt speed change, the organ/synth becomes the beat, and the guitar/bass comes wogging in and its exciting. ELP does this too much, to the point where its almost every transition, and it doesn't make it better. That being said, Yes's transitions aren't the best either, they are just better than ELP's.
>>61416276
Describe the wank please. Where in Fragile compared to BSS?
I mean.... Have you actually listened to ELP's "Hoedown?" :^)
>>61416276
Like, I want you to tell me where all the wank is that I'm not hearing.
>>61416291
>Not when you use them all the time.
Why not? If it makes the music exciting, it is a desirable trait.
>Think about CTTE after the organ comes in, and there is an abrupt speed change, the organ/synth becomes the beat, and the guitar/bass comes wogging in and its exciting.
And so are many parts from Karn Evil 9 too, especially towards the end, and they all work great.
>ELP does this too much, to the point where its almost every transition, and it doesn't make it better.
It does make it a lot better.
>That being said, Yes's transitions aren't the best either, they are just better than ELP's.
I actually consider Yes to be a better band than ELP, what I'm arguing about is when people say that ELP are shit, and then the next post or even in the same post they tak about Yes like they are the best from the world of progressive rock. That's not very coherent.
>>61416334
Go listen to Cans and Brahms
No, haven't listened to that specific ELP
>>61416350
The entirety of Siberian Khatru
>>61416368
I kinda agree with Siberian. That song is structured decently, but 1/3 of it doesn't need to be in it. All the key changes get unnecessary. Instrumentally the thing that gets me is how many goddamn times the refrain comes up.
But this is still nothing compared to Tarkus and Karn Evil 9.
>>61416368
I'm done with this. Good debate. Both wank.
>>61416418
>I kinda agree with Siberian. That song is structured decently, but 1/3 of it doesn't need to be in it. All the key changes get unnecessary. Instrumentally the thing that gets me is how many goddamn times the refrain comes up.
No. All the moments from the song are good, it's just that you just don't like some. You might see the key changes as unnecessary, but key changes are some of the most exciting musical elements there are.
>But this is still nothing compared to Tarkus and Karn Evil 9.
The whole song is great. Filled with exciting moments, catchy moments, great riffs, and even interesting keyboard sounds.
>>61416443
Both Wank, and Both Good
>>61411822
Rude. Selling England is a seriously quality album.
Hemispheres is hit and miss. La Villa Strangiato is the best Rush song, but Cygnus II is boring and The Trees is really lame.
ITCOTCK will always be one of the most important albums of the genre, but to say it's the best prog has to offer is basically to not understand prog at all.
Prog is a genre that is both strongly qualitative and not, which allows it to be extremely subjective. Do you prefer long, drawn out arrangements with bombastic flair? Maybe you're more of a Yes or ELP person. Do you prefer shorter, more experimental pieces? Maybe you're a Gentle Giant or King Crimson person.
If there's any genre that can really boil down to preference more than any other, it's prog, which is why so many who dislike extensive experimentation and drawn out arrangements cite this album as the best; it's the most digestible prog album to date that is still unquestionably prog.
>>61416276
Not who you replied to but the original issue was Close to the Edge compared to ELP in general. First of all, the song "And you and I" is basically a really long pop song, it has very little to no solo work on it all. Siberian Khatru has a blues influence and some of its main riffs are pretty minimal. It has a few passages, maybe 10-15 seconds, of any standout guitar work and its kind of repetive at some points, but at least they repeat something. ELP cant seem to hold to a theme. You can't say either of those are wankery at all. Close to the Edge starts off with a technical guitar part, however, unlike ELP, it has some semblance of melody. The rhythm isn't some predictable jazz scale in swing over the period of 4 minutes, it has a variety in rhythm. There are 2 parts on that early guitar part, an up and down extended arpeggio, and the scale right before they sing (i'd argue that its a building moment but it is wankery). Other than that the rest of the song is repeated riffs and tunes that are transitioned into more riffs and tunes until the end.
>>61416368
I dissagree. With ELP its past the point of gimmicky, mostly because they don't seem to be able to write subtle transitions at all. In CTTE it goes from a beautiful slow organ part to a fast paced grimey jam. Thats not the same as going from one fast "wank" to another with no real bridge. I never made the claim that Yes was amazing. Besides a few albums, they sink to the level of ELP for different reasons.
>>61416561
What're your favorite Prog releases?
>>61416574
What're your favorite prog releases?
Genuinely is outside the Canterbury Scene (i.e., Gong's Flying Teapot). Close to the Edge is another obviously top tier addition. Early Pink Floyd can't really be considered prog, and the later stuff is below this.
>>61416633
see
>>61415908
>>61415193
I also like pretty much anything by KC.
Milk Time by hiro yanagida
Sacrifice - Hiro Yaganida
Thick as a Brick - Jethro Tull
Sun 1972 - Sun
Ommadawn - Mike Oldfield
Argus - Wishbone Ash... if that counts
Wish you were here - PF
>>61416740
my bad
*Sacrifice - Black Widow
>>61416574
So, your argument for Yes being better than ELP is just "ELP has wank, but Yes not" and "Yes is subtle, but ELP is not"?
Assuming of course that wank is a bad trait and subtlety is a good trait?
Also, there are calm moments during Karn Evil 9 too, you would know that if you listened to it.
>>61416790
Im saying that ELP is wank BECAUSE they don't have an ounce of subtlety on many of their releases and "excitement" isn't an excuse if all they ever do is awkwardly segway into each phrase. Also because many of their solo passages don't have any redeeming qualities beyond playing fast. Does ELP have some good songs? Sure, do they have good albums? Sure, but Tarkus and BSS aren't among them.
>>61416893
>"excitement" isn't an excuse if all they ever do is awkwardly segway into each phrase.
It is, because it makes the music more enjoyable and exciting music is not inherently bad.
Their passages are alright, if you perceive them as awkward it's because of you, and not because the music is actually awkward.
>Also because many of their solo passages don't have any redeeming qualities beyond playing fast.
Except their catchy melodies and exciting climaxes (that aren't always caused because they are fast).
>>61417031
>tarkus
>8 bit music plays
>8 bit music fades
>gong
>goes back to early eruption theme out of absolutely nowhere
kills me every time
>>61417031
The passages aren't exciting to me, they just sound bad, but if you enjoy them, then don't listen to me because obviously if you think they are exciting, then thats enough. I don't like them, I don't find any redeemable qualities in their most beloved works. The melodies of which you speak, at least in my mind, were never fleshed out. They were displayed once or twice and then ELP moves onto the next passage without any proper resolution. Again, these are just how i felt, they aren't necesarily musical facts.
>>61417186
*I don't necessarily consider them musical facts.
>>61417208
But he's right
>>61417186
>Again, these are just how i felt, they aren't necesarily musical facts.
Well, if you could have said that since the beginning.
I thought we were arguing about the quality of music, and not how much and why we liked them.
>>61417260
But he's right
>>61417395
He's right that their music has qualities that he doesn't like.
He's not right that their music has no redeeming qualities.
>>61416596
Leftoverture - Kansas
Song for America - Kansas
Close to the Edge - Yes
Fortunate Observer of Time - Frogg Cafe
Acquiring the Taste - Gentle Giant
Gentle Giant - Gentle Giant
Shadow Theater - Tigran Hamasyan
A Change of Seasons - Dream Theater
Islands - King Crimson
In the Court of the Crimson King - King Crimson
Generally, I'm a fan of shorter, denser, and more digestible prog. It's difficult for me to list off favorites, though. I always forget some.
>>61417260
I think the quality of music is shit too, but I'm not an expert in theory and such so I can only work with basic ideas but I still feel that ELP is objectively bad. I sort of meant it as "i think its bad, here's my observations on why I think its bad but if you like then there is no point in typing it to you, and likewise, there's no point in you listening to me." Enjoy your shit ;)
