Why is jazz considered to be comparable to art music in complexity and artistry? Its 'compositions' are more often than not a cliche chord progression with a 12 bar melody repeated twice, followed by improvisations over those chord changes mostly made up of cliches straight out of the recordings of older jazz musicians or made up of digital patterns with slight rhythmic variations. But the compositions are rarely even discussed, as the ever artistic music appears to place more emphasis on the musicians 'chops' or technical skill with their instrument than anything else. But above all, jazz appears to be a borderline masturbatory activity. The musicians take turns playing extended and often times self serving solos that more or less are that musician's time to show off for a while. When a horn player noodles around scale patterns and impromptu melodies in front of the band or a drummer slams the skins as hard, they may as well save our ears the trouble and massage their penises on stage. The musicians wear suits, but more often than not they're little more than degenerate addicts looking to show off their much practiced technical skill to make money or, even worse, convince themselves that they're talented artists.
If you're a jazz fan, I'll put it more simply for you: jazz is barely music, and if it is it's the opposite of artistic.
Go to bed Steve
>>61189950
There is more to music than complexity.
Jazz is about being spontaneous, playing what you feel at the moment. Whatever you feel, you communicate it through your instrument, the moment you play a saxophone it's a part of you.
But it's true that jazz critics are oftenly blinded by virtuosity.
hehhehe that's cute kid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J2GgHVqNAg
>>61189950
this fucking guy amiright?
>>61189950
Essentially the problem with this post and your stance on jazz is that it's completely based on a shallow, un-researched misunderstanding of what the music is about at best, and at worst straight up factual errors your statements.
>Its 'compositions' are more often than not a cliche chord progression with a 12 bar melody repeated twice
Right, so it appears here that you are referring to the "jazz standard" which is, as the name suggests, a very common source of material for jazz performances. Referring to these types of chord progressions as "cliche" doesn't make any sense, most jazz standards were written in the 1920s - 40s for broadway shows (I've Got Rhythm, If I Were A Bell). The style of writing in these tunes was basically a massive revolution on which the entirety of American pop music song writing stems from - 7th extensions on root chords and use of 7ths/9ths in a casual vocal tune context, II-V-I progressions, the AABA songwriting form (which you have incorrectly surmised as 12 bars being played twice) - all of these conventions were part a new style of popular American music that obviously exploded in popularity and lead to America's first pop starts like Frank Sinatra, and informed the songwriting of groups like the Beatles and basically 20th century western pop. To refer to these songs and types of chord progressions as cliche is basically like saying that classical music is cliche because in 2015 it sounds cliche to you. Well of course it fucking does it's because it's music from another time and you are listening to it as if it was released in 2015, it obviously wasn't fucking cliche at the time in fact it was revolutionary.
>>61190424
I was only shitposting but I appreciate your response
>>61190479
>being autistic on purpose
literally why?
>>61189950
>>61190424
>But the compositions are rarely even discussed, as the ever artistic music appears to place more emphasis on the musicians 'chops' or technical skill with their instrument than anything else
This is wrong for several reasons. The first is the assertion that composition is not discussed, practised or particularly valued in jazz - another tell that you actually have nothing but a glancing, surface knowledge of what the fuck jazz is. Basically it sounds like you think standards based jazz is what all jazz is, when in actual fact it is only one type of many types. The history of jazz is absolutely packed full of original compositions that are basically in my opinion absolutely beautiful, brilliant and many of them historically massively innovative and influential. Here's some examples to get you started
Butterfly - Herbie Hancock (70s Jazz Funk)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knbmKDUYDXc
Lonely Woman - Ornette Coleman (60s Free Jazz)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNbD1JIH344
Nemesis - Aaron Parks (2000s modern Jazz, quite poppy)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6565AKRNsHE
>>61190479
>typing out this elaborate of a "shitpost"
nice try
>>61190636
autistic people don't know how to walk the line between irony/satire and subconscious venting
op may have aspergers
>>61190424
I mean, fug. Irving Berlin became a legend for a reason and it was because he was one of the founding fathers of the pop song as we know it.
I don't hate jazz but it does seem to me that people are fans of it more for its influence/eccentricity/exhibited skill in improvisation/etc. than how much of an emotional response it provokes in them. Of course I'm generalizing but still
>>61190424
>>61190651
funny that actual music discussion happens in a shitpost thread
Jazz back in the 20s was what rock later became - it was edgy, gritty music for kids to dance and fuck to. Starting in the 50s though, it just became pretentious fedora art music and got replaced by rock as party stuff.
>>61189950
WEW LAD
EW LAD
W LAD
LAD
AD
D
>>61192432
excuse me it's actually phew lad
>>61192406
what about when it got fun and funky and groovy later on?
>>61192406
>implying this isn't edgy, gritty music to fuck too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzgBcpwhQNA
>>61192560
This track is pretty dope, I never knew miles came out with stuff like this.
>>61189950
i didnt really read any of this john
hey buddy you gotta problem with watching people masturbate?
>>61189950
nobody cares guy
>>61189950
damn Miles had a really weird fucking head
Not even a fan of jazz and this is one of the most retarded opinions I've seen to date.
>>61192777
this
some people are really really good at it.
The only reason jazz exists is so that whiteys can spend hours watching niggers wank it, only with suits and instruments so that their wives don't get too tempted.
>>61192690
trust me bro his early 70's late 60's stuff is some of the best shit I have ever heard
here's some reccs:
Dark Magus
Live-Evil
Complete On The Corner Session
Complete Cellar Door Sessions
Live At Montreux
basically anything with Michael Henderson on bass
Here's some samples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHL22BGKeZ8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhrePyWeRA8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOA9_TdRFt4
>>61192367
when people argue for emotional response they seem to usually refer to sadness and anger
jazz does deal with those intense emotions sometimes
Bill Evans' work seems to display a lot of it
yes, there is a lot of jazz that does become centered around chops and pushing the envelope, like Giant Steps or The Shape of Jazz to Come
at the same time, thode two albums have tracks that can be heart wrenching to some people, like Naima and I can't remember the title of Ornette's piece
I think people who prioritize expression often neglect the complexity of it
social statements like Max Roach's work and some of Mingus' had a ton of heavy emotion while perpetuating new ideas to maybe reject the old, which kind of aligns with the attitude of civil rights during their time
listen to Coltrane's Alabama, if anything. Read about it.
As a jazz fan, I acknowledge that there's a shit ton of masturbation but it seems a lot of other jazz fans recognize that too
take your favorite genre and you could probably stir up a few arguments that hold true for the many bands or musicians who make the genre look bad
>>61192955
Still having my listen to the first sample, I'm kinda new to jazz but this seems pretty experimental compared to all of the basic jazz tunes my band plays. Why don't I hear stuff like this now a'days? Or do I just have to go searching?
>>61190424
>>61190651
#rekt
>>61192367
I'm friends with a 16yo jazz prodigy who seems to be stuck praising the chops of Chris Potter and Joey Alexander despite not wanting to. It seems like the jazz institution institutionalized him. All he wanted was a pepsi.
Seriously though, it seems like it's a phase that jazz musicians more or less have to go through.
>>61193098
these kind of rhythms have been subsumed by black electronic music
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeZ_Ip9zblA
>>61193098
You don't exactly hear stuff exactly like it because abrasive jazz fusion is pretty hard to come by nowadays and Davis was one of the only guys to do it
Jazz fusion back then was dominated by smoother, funkier, cooler and less experimental bands (i.e Herbie Hancock, Weather Report, Chick Corea, ect.) while these bands aren't bad per say they influenced a lot of other jazz musicians to make what is basically elevator music
But, thankfully Davis made what was essentially the template for hip-hop and a lot of hip-hop/electronica acts have borrowed from Miles' aggressive rhythms (though i know of none that have directly sampled Miles' recordings)
Also yes you should always keep searching (and if you do find more recordings or similar recordings feel free to drop them in a share thread)
Though one day if I ever make enough money and get some people to make a band I'm going to try to build on Miles' music and take it to places it's never been to thanks to 21st century technology...one day man one day
