learning music theory ruined my enjoyment of music.
>ignorant is a bliss
it actually helped me enjoy it more, its cool hearing whats going on
>>60595406
you are weak
Pepe ruined my enjoyment of 4chan.
Dumb frog poster.
Said nobody ever.
RIP
>that glorious feel when musician with limited theory knowledge master race
a-at least I am a better producer though right guys?
Nice bait, you even attached a pic of le reddit frog. Good job.
why? the whole point of learning music theory is so that you can then unlearn it.
there's a reason genres like free jazz and albums like Trout Mask Replica are the pinnacle of music
>>60595453
>the whole point of learning music theory is so that you can then unlearn it
damn...
I feel you.
It takes effort to tune out your brain and just enjoy the sound as you're supposed to, everything sounds like simplistic garbage when you really think about it, so don't.
learning music theory made my music experience richer because now even basic pop songs are more engaging.
I mean, I hate Maroon 5, but "Harder to Breathe" has some interesting stuff that I only ever noticed after learning some basic theory.
>>60595406
Same thing learning about synths, I can't listen to replica anymore after I found out all those drones were just presets. I thought Dan was doing some sort of crazy sample stretching.
>>60595496
>Harder to Breathe
how can you hate anything from Songs about Jane pleb
>>60595515
I wasn't in the USA to experience the early 2000's alt pop bang, so I don't have the fond nostalgic memories of music like that.
>>60595416
Isn't it great that civilized states shove 'knowledge' into children's heads before they can give consent?
Misery loves company
>>60595481
>everything sounds like simplistic garbage when you really think about it
I think a lot of people go through their "I want to jerk off to free jazz and 16-tone world music" phase because of their desire to hear new and interesting things, like how most guitarists have their "I wanna be a shredder" phase; but it's just that, a phase.
>learning how to read ruined the harry potter movies for me
>>60595712
more like learning how to write a screenplay ruined the harry potter movies for me.
people who know music theory have shit taste in music, doesn't even matter if they're good musicians themselves
I've always wondered about this. I've been playing for over 15 years but don't know any theory and never cared to learn any. It seems like the more I do learn the more it takes away from creativity (from a "this isn't complicated enough" standpoint). It seems like knowing the basics and being passionate is more important than knowing theory and trying to write complex music for the sake of writing complex music. Playing with passion is the most important thing about music in my opinion and it makes worlds of difference. Once people start learning theory and all that it just becomes a giant pissing contest. Depends on the type of music of course though (I can't play jazz or classical guitar but can pull off some cool stuff if I sit in with the right people).
>>60595858
>Once people start learning theory and all that it just becomes a giant pissing contest.
People always say this and it couldn't be further from the truth. Learning music theory doesn't automatically make you Dream Theater, the only difference is you CAN write more complicated stuff. Learning theory doesn't make you a better song writer, it just gives you a broader set of tools.
>blames music theory for his inability to feel anything
good luck chuck
>>60595478
how can you break the rules if you dont know what they are
>>60595661
Arthur Schopenhauer talks about this in Studies in Pessimism - On Education. I think he makes a lot of excellent points.
>>60595406
HOW
>>60595898
Well it was a broad generalization and I'm only speaking from anecdotal evidence obviously so take it with a grain of salt.
>>60595732
Learning how to write screenplays would ruin all movies, I assume
>>60596007
I'm liking tghat James Bond get you have there
>>60595453
no, you learn it so you can make god tier harmonies and progressions
>>60595993
he found out that everything he likes is facile garbage
I know a decent amount of music theory and I still enjoy pop music for the ability to make people move and just enjoy it.
This is one of my favorite live performances Ive ever seen.
http://en.musicplayon.com/play?v=581946
>>60595960
This is a stupid comment. It's quite easy to naively break the "rules" and do highly unconventional things. But music theory isn't "rules" anyway, and everything unconventional has already been done and incorporated into music.
>>60596040
>implying any talented musician can't do the same without overthinking it
>theory is not music
>no such thing as absolute music
>>60595692
This. Then you realize how important sheer entertainment and feels are. At least that's what happened to me.
>>60595406
its easier to learn when its songs you like. look up your favorite song and look up the chords
>>60595406
Learning music theory made me appreciate a lot more music.
You're probably just retarded OP, or you just listen to popular music, which would understandably be ruined once you learn music theory: its so simple and repetitive.
>>60595453
TMR is at the bottom of the music pile: awful shit written by plebs who dont know theory.
>>60595769
knowledge has nothing to do with taste dumbass. You probably dont enjoy classical right? mostly listen to popular music released on CDs and written by plebs with no knowledge of theory? yeah you have the shit taste here.
>>60596113
>implying any talented musician can write a piece for orchestra, or a vocal piece in the renaissance style.
Knowledge of music is more than just theory, it involves the study of instruments, compositional techniques, form, critical thinking of your own creative processes, ethnomusicology, and much more.
Knowledge and creativity are separate. Knowledge allows your creativity more options. This is a fact.
For anyone who thinks music theory limits you: stay pleb. it makes it easier for us with the know how to succeed, and means less competition. Your compositions will always sound painfully amateur, except to the most retarded pleb.
I can sort of relate, learning a bit about film theory didn't ruin movies for me but it ruined them for whoever ends up watching one with me
I learned music through a broken keyboard with an onboard demo recorder, fuck outta here FL babbies.
>>60597641
You are the reason incarnate for why people stay away from theory.
>>60597641
Was on board with "Learning music theory made me appreciate a lot more music", but then you lost me with the elitist music theory knowledge faggotry. As >>60597745 said, you're turning people off of theory in a major way.
Then you are a fool. Just stop letting your emotions govern you. I'll bet you're INFP. Christ, I fucking hate faggots like you. Grow the fuck up.
>>60597969
not that guy but INFJ master race reporting
most succesfull musicians in history didn't knew music theory. prove me wrong.
>>60597641
>Knowledge of music is more than just theory, it involves the study of instruments, compositional techniques, form...
This is true and is left to good producers. The thing about music is it's a collaborative effort and takes many views to make it great in most cases. This is why any decent musician needs to "transcend the ego" so to speak before he can become anything noteworthy.
>... Knowledge allows your creativity more options. This is a fact.
I would have to disagree. In fact I would say the exact opposite is true. We can continue this conversation of you want.
>For anyone who thinks music theory limits you: stay pleb. it makes it easier for us with the know how to succeed...
Now you just sound like a typical music major at a predigested university. You're competing with a million others who are just as talented as you and you're getting very defensive here (which is not a good sign). And when it comes down to it it's the originality and passion that transcends theory which makes great music great.
>>60597954
This.
>>60595453
THis
all of the composer's ive known (like 4 of them) always had this annoying saying. "You learn music theory so you can ignore it later."
>>60598367
>predigested university
what
>>60595435
This.
Who else /self-taught/ here?
>>60598404
he probably misspelled prestigious and it auto-correct to that
>>60597641
>For anyone who thinks music theory limits you: st
I wouldn't say 'limits you' but I think there's a point where a person switches off the intellect and plays music.
Also , with the amount there is to learn I defy anyone to hold all of it in their heads and play it creatively. It's why people specialise.
>>60597641
You aren't very nice
>>60598334
Beethoven
Mozart
Why is this theory debate still happening?
Just make music instead of masturbating over diatonic scales and phyrigian modes (i dont fucking know)
>>60598452
The level of music theory we are talking about didn't exist until late in Beethoven's life, if not even later, like the 1830s
just a reminder the n1 musician atm is Taylor Swift.
wheres you're theory now fags?
>>60598475
Shut up mom get my pizzarolls damn
>>60598491
reminder
music is, when you know you know
that's knowledge
its hard to learn
you have to make many mistakes
and fail many times
but when you believe
your dreams can come true
keep believing
you are just beginning your journey into music
>>60598415
Me.
I can improv/shred on the electric guitar, but barely know my basic chords.
>Realise how tough/hard music production can be
>Appreciate producers/artists I listen to even more now
>>60598523
https://soundcloud.com/sixth-sun/sets/guitar-covers
Learned to play these mostly by ear, supplemented with a little tablature.
>>60598527
Pretty much.
>people think music is a theory
Really?
"Music Theory" is yet another example of stuffy old white intellectuals trying to ruin something fun by dissecting it and removing the soul.
If the sounds I make sound good
are they really good or am I just fucking stupid
>>60598603
how are they intellectuals when "Music Theory" is just a dumbed down version of a small portion of physics?
>>60598523
so what you're saying is
you're a shit guitarist
>>60598523
Why even play guitar if you're just going to shred, yer a disgrace!
>>60598661
essentially, yes
>>60598659
because some of it is literally theorizing on what will sound good next, but humans (and their ears) are fickle
>>60598763
that only proves my point more so, since harsh noise sounds good to some people - whats the 'music theory' behind that fact?
>>60595453
>genres like free jazz and albums like Trout Mask Replica are the pinnacle of music
>>60598848
me on the left
>>60598816
Right? That is the mentality that actually caring about music theory creates.
>>60598603
white ppl r so lame rite??
>>60598889
Well, yeah.
>trout mask replica
Beefheart didn't know any music theory
>>60598948
Cap beefheart here
Yes I did u fuck
>>60598973
Play a Strawberry
>>60598940
This is very hateful towards whites and i take offense. You are the new leaders of the world. Good luck.
>>60599061
what the fuck even is this post
>>60595406
r u me
>>60595932
it makes you realise just how bland so much stuff is
>>60599091
the official declaration of surrender from the ambassador of the white race
>>60599091
he's saying ur a nigger
>>60599167
well i don't know music theory at all and i realise how bland and plen most of /mu/ is
>>60599167
at some point you will realize there's too much shit going on to keep rating stuff
you will start looking for whatever gives you the feels
>>60599291
That's because most /mu/tants are pathetic... clinging on to music as a fashion accessory (especially tripfags). /mu/ essentials are disgusting.
I had to learn up to grade 5 theory when I was younger but I forgot it all, where do I go to get back into it and appreciate it more, I hates it when I did it because I didn't understand any applications of it
>>60598603
>implying only white people have invented music theory
>>60597745
>>60597954
Are you guys implying I care whether people take up theory or not?
I'm prefectly ok with people ignoring theory their whole lives. Just makes my music sound even better without even trying.
>>60598367
so are you saying knowledge doesn't give you more options? thats pretty stupid.
If we all had equal talent, my music would still be of a higher quality because I understand music theory and the rest dont. Lets see a pleb write a fugue, or write a piece for orchestra, or write a bimodal piece. They can't. They write what "sounds good" to them, but its only a small portion of what music can be.
>>60598415
>not being self taught, then getting a formal education, then continueing to be an autodidact for the rest of your life
You never stop learning with music. Those who dont even want to start learning are just shooting themselves in the foot, and choosing to write pleb songs on guitar for the rest of their lives. Its ok, there's plenty of plebs out there to lap up this lower quality music. "Popular music" we call it. Music written by plebs, for plebs. It usually doesn't succeed without good marketing. The actual music is unimportant.
>>60598491
Like I just said, popular music is 95% marketing, and 5% having a catchy chorus. If anything the most popular music is the lowest quality. Taylor swift, to use your example.
>>60598603
>Learning about something removes the fun
Dont you enjoying analyzing Bach fugues? I find that fun. Looking at Mahler's orchestration? I find that fun. You can learn so much from the masters. Maybe you have fun by playing 4 chords on a guitar with some distortion, but I have fun by writing for orchestra, or writing fugues.
OK, I'll say this: you dont need theory to write popular music.
You only need theory if you want to write art music.
The choice is yours. You cant make great art without understanding the basics. Just like any painter or sculptor.
>>60598484
Counterpoint and harmony were well known by the 1650s.
>>60601375
>You never stop learning with music. Those who dont even want to start learning are just shooting themselves in the foot, and choosing to write pleb songs on guitar for the rest of their lives. Its ok, there's plenty of plebs out there to lap up this lower quality music. "Popular music" we call it. Music written by plebs, for plebs. It usually doesn't succeed without good marketing. The actual music is unimportant.
>LITERALLY PROJECTING THIS HARD
>le_facebook_frog.png
Helped me appreciate music I didn't quite understand at first Tbh lad
>>60601396
the concepts of counterpoint and melody should be obvious without learning theory though.
Guys, all music is is repetition and variation, that's all you need to know.
>>60601417
should be, but aren't.
There's a good reason baroque music sounds so perfect and balanced: Strict Counterpoint
An untrained person would wonder why a chord sounds muddy, and why their melody isn't very good, wheras a trained person would be able to carefully space a chord to make it vibrant and beautiful, and have a melody that does exactly what they want, and is memorable and effective.
>>60601409
what am I projecting, friend? an air of superiority due to my knowledge?
>>60601415
hey man im worried about you I think you should actually kill yourself
>>60601375
>"sounds good" to them
All that matters.
But it's cute you're in the honeymoon phase with your new interesting class.
People who operate from perspective that music theory is "prescriptive" like this young man >>60601375 and who prioritize structure and composition over aesthetic aren't artists, they're "craftsmen," not much different than the pop artists/producers they so despise.
Any kind of "theory," whether it be music, film, or literature is a massive load of academic horseshit, something for tweed jackets to teach to gullible liberal arts students.
African tribesmen didn't need a fuckin' classroom to teach them microtones and polyrhythms. They happened upon those "techniques" naturally through instinct and emotion.
Music theory is descriptive. You can sit there and chaotically bang a frying pan against the wall, and it will naturally produce tones, time signatures, harmonics, notes, and even a rhythm. Music theory is simply a post hoc description and labeling of the particulars involved. Case in point: The Shaggs musical incompetence has been described as an "homage" to Chinese Court music and employing atonal tone clusters in the vein of Ornette Coleman. Like I said, this "complex" shit that music theorists naval gaze over happens naturally.
Again, what sounds good to the artist is all that should matter. Microtones and syncopation, "techniques" that were considered avant-garde in the West and then studied and taught in academia, were employed because they simply sounded good. No music theory needed.
>>60601690
yeah all that matters to plebs. Thats why taylor swift is so popular. plebs think she "sounds good"
I finished my music degree 4 years ago fyi
>>60601886
I never said music theory was prescriptive. Its descriptive. All it does is give you more arrows for your bow. You can do more things with knowledge. Its pretty basic really.
Learning about something allows you to do it better. There's no argument here, you guys are just lazy, or intimidated by music theory. Not really my problem, by all means never learn theory.
Learning about music is much more than just counterpoint and harmony. I dont think you guys will understand until you go to university / college. Just like someone who has never studied art will never work out what makes a great masters work so great. Things like golden raitio and composition of a picture. geometry, study of the human form and anatomy. These are the things that make great art. Dont learn about them, and your art will seem painfully amateur.
>>60601690
kek
ITT: Plebs
learning how to produce it ruined it for me. its like im a magician who knows how all the tricks are done now and the idiots in the audience applaud it and go crazy.
>>60602118
If you're such a great knowledgeable musician why are you posting on 4chan? Can we have some links to your work? With all this superiority shit you're spouting you better have a large collection of music you wrote to back all that up. Let's hear it.
>>60595453
but beefheart didn't go to music school
>>60601417
From my experience, I think it's as simple as some people are talented and some people aren't. Most people just don't have a good ear for music (usually the ones who cling to theory and all that because they know they naturally suck). The easiest way to weed them out is through improv.
Western music theory is probably the most mind-numbingly autistic, frivolous and USELESS subject in the world.
That being said, you're probably more than a little autistic yourself it ruined music for you.
>>60596276
>bach
Bach is literally to most aleatoric composer of all time. He only cared about tonality and left EVERY other aspect of his music to pure chance.
>>60598415
Me, I have basic knowledge though.
>>60601375
>Lets see a pleb write a fugue
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Johann_Sebastian_Bach
All of his counterpoint stuff is brain-dead copy paste borderline-amusical shit.
>>60601886
Pretty much this.
>>60598603
>old white intellectuals
implying there's any other type of intellectual......
>>60598848
what is this fucking moon-runes bullshit supposed to be telling me m8???
>>60595406
If it can reassure you you never enjoyed it in the first place
>>60601375
>Suck at music
>Better go to school for it
>Still suck
>Can't learn talent
>Well at least I'm superior
How does it feel to have wasted such a large portion of your life anon?
>>60596040
I never understood people who can't make harmony's and progressions without learning theory. If you can't make music by ear and intuition you're probably never going to be a good musician
>>60595406
that's strange. did the exact opposite for me. made me appreciate it on a different level.
>>60603588
why the kitty cat
>>60603262
Who's the deaf guy who had a better ear for music than you because of his theory?
>>60601886
Best description for why music theory isn't important for the artist. I couldn't have explained it better.
This thread is horrendous
The Commoners are satisfied with the most simple music anyway. You don't need theory to compose Type 0 music.
Theory only becomes important from Type 2 upwards.
>>60603842
>Type 2 upwards
you mean autists who listen to aphex twin ?
What do you mean by theory?
I think almost anyone can put basic chords together in a song, and sound out anything else they need
>>60603962
Yes, Aphex Twin is about Type 2 or 3.
Type 5 is stuff like New Complexity, Serialism and Athematicism.
>>60602118
>I dont think you guys will understand until you go to university / college. Just like someone who has never studied art will never work out what makes a great masters work so great. Things like golden raitio and composition of a picture. geometry, study of the human form and anatomy. These are the things that make great art. Dont learn about them, and your art will seem painfully amateur.
Of course learning about something improves your facility in an endeavor. Your problem is that you're exalting one way of learning (academic) over all others, and declaring that way a requisite to appreciate and/or create good music.
Another problem you have is your deferring to academia as some kind of arbiter of "taste," believing their standards are immutable objectivity.
First of all, the various art, film and music professors in any one university will probably passionately disagree with each other on what is "good," and have different teaching methods.
Secondly, academia is always "catching up." Artists in all mediums, following their instincts of what appeals to them (sounds good, looks good, etc), have challenged and overturned institutional standards throughout history. The Downtown Music scene (Phillip Glass, Steve Reich, Terry Riley, etc) were pretty much dismissed as shit by "uptowners" (academia),
>Uptown composers did not, and usually do not, find Downtown music interesting. They find it, instead, a betrayal of European aesthetics,
http://www.kylegann.com/downtown.html#dt3
Now the work of those composers is taught.
Thirdly, academia can overintellectualize anything and make it seem like "you need" that knowledge in order to appreciate/understand something. They offer degrees in memes, for Christ's sake.
So, we all need to learn "meme theory" now in order to laugh or sneer at Doge?
>>60604374
>mfw actual discussion about music on /mu/
Also, you're right.
>>60603771
Have to train the ear.
>Blake's philosophy in teaching differs greatly from that of many music educators, even in the jazz world. He calls his unique approach "the primacy of the ear"...In the article, he stressed that "the ear is and should be of primary importance."
http://www.amazon.com/Primacy-The-Ear-Ran-Blake/dp/0557609127
I'm sometimes convinced that strict "music theorists" don't listen to music or sound, they listen to math.
>>60595406
Really? It enhanced mine, maybe you have bad ears?
>>60595406
stop listening to garbage music then, idiot
>>60604505
>they listen to math
congrats you figured it out, now you know why every teacher you've had since you started wanted you to count out loud while you played.
>>60604577
This Op.
All music theory does is give people a language to use when talking about music.
>>60595453
>Free jazz
>trout mask replicia
>pinnacle
>>60598415
Me. I'm a pretty great guitarist, but it kind of sucks knowing that I could write a lot more cool shit with it.
>>60603217
I do, and I have posted it many times here.
>>60603420
Bach was the total opposite of a pleb though. Carefully studied the work of the composers before him, and his contemporaries. His music is beautiful and complex in equal parts. You probably just have shit taste and listen to bands.
>>60603759
Gaining knowledge isn't a waste of time. I know how to write for any instrument or combination of. I know how to write any form, any style, any period. And I can use all that knowledge to create unique works in my own voice. You should try learning something someday, you'll find it helps you create things much easier and more efficiently, and be more productive.
>>60604374
What's your point? I learn more about music so I can make music I consider good. No one needs to learn theory. I just learnt it so I can improve the quality of my work, and to be able to write for orchestra or choir or gamelan or for any performer who asks for a piece.
In my opinion academic training is the only way to create something "good", because all music written by untrained plebs is just popular music. I listen to art music or nothing.
>>60596009
it does to some extent
>>60595406
Listen to noise.
Wew this thread.
Also how the fuck would learning more about how music is created ruin the ability to enjoy it?
>>60607492
>His music is beautiful and complex in equal parts.
Not that it matters, but I can probably recognize more Scriabin pieces just by hearing a 3 second excerpt than you can Bach pieces by looking at the whole score.
Music needs people who study theory, but it also needs people who never took theory and just have a natural skill. Because music is extremely diverse. Sometimes I like listening to detailed compositions from trained composers, sometimes I like free jazz, and sometimes I like guitar wankery etc etc. If everyone studied theory music would he boring, but if no one studied theory it would be a cluster fuck. Music is limitless, so it needs all sorts of artists to be diverse. I encourage any artist to take the path they see as the most enjoyable and fruitful to them, for many that involves education, for others it does not
but counterpoint is nice...
>>60598334
>what is every classical composer ever
>>60598334
Coltrane knew theory, Parker knew theory, Davis knew theory the list could go on
Here's a quote by Richard Feyman that applies beautifully to your problem OP:
"I have a friend who's an artist and has sometimes taken a view which I don't agree with very well. He'll hold up a flower and say "look how beautiful it is," and I'll agree. Then he says "I as an artist can see how beautiful this is but you as a scientist take this all apart and it becomes a dull thing," and I think that he's kind of nutty. First of all, the beauty that he sees is available to other people and to me too, I believe. Although I may not be quite as refined aesthetically as he is ... I can appreciate the beauty of a flower. At the same time, I see much more about the flower than he sees. I could imagine the cells in there, the complicated actions inside, which also have a beauty. I mean it's not just beauty at this dimension, at one centimeter; there's also beauty at smaller dimensions, the inner structure, also the processes. The fact that the colors in the flower evolved in order to attract insects to pollinate it is interesting; it means that insects can see the color. It adds a question: does this aesthetic sense also exist in the lower forms? Why is it aesthetic? All kinds of interesting questions which the science knowledge only adds to the excitement, the mystery and the awe of a flower. It only adds. I don't understand how it subtracts.”
Fuck the theory
>>60608804
But this is assuming that Feyman's friend just sees the flower and thinks DURR NICE FLWREO I LIEK ITTT!!11!1!1
I like visual art and am kind of an artist myself and for what it's worth I can tell you that's not really true. I can't really describe what happens when I look at something like pic related. It's a sort of meme sensation, a certain pull, almost hypnotic, where you're mesmerized by the hues and textures and shapes.
>but anyone can do that
Maybe? But it happens automatically and I can't control it. It's like "raw contemplation"? Rather than transferring the object piece by piece into your mind and then analyzing them individually in a dark room, you perceive it "live" and all at once.
>>60610250
And I forgot to mention that this is what Feyman didn't understand.
When Feyman looked at the flower, things happened in his head.
When his friend looked at the flower, different things happened in his head.
>>60595661
actually it "is" (here are my quotation marks for credibility)
>>60608804
this enframing
Eh, I like recognizing modes while listening to tonal stuff.
>>60607492
Post a link to your music.
>>60607492
>In my opinion academic training is the only way to create something "good", because all music written by untrained plebs is just popular music.
lmfao
Same. I miss the feeling I got from messing around in FL studio when I was younger and had no clue about anything but somehow came up with music. After learning nine instruments and spending all my time learning more about sound design and production techniques, I don't find the same enjoyment in it anymore. Everything in music seems so formulaic to me nowadays
>>60595406
>music theory
wtf is that
>>60598119
roger
Yeah, same happened for me with film and writing. I can't enjoy it purely anymore.
I'm glad I know absolutely nothing about music.
>>60603230
he went to the music
