Is Tom Waits the best singer-songwriter of all times?
bruh....
yes you dumbass
he's the coolest and most "experimental" (insofar as recontextualizing the archaic can be deemed experimental). More importantly he's also the funniest and has the best sad songs.
>>60306683
duh
>>60306694
Not even close
>>60306683
I don't get why everyone loves Tom Waits. All he does is poorly imitate black jazz and blues singers which is racist as fuck, he's like a modern day minstrel show.
I could understand it if he made good music but he's fucking terrible.
>>60306683
In my opinion, yes.
>>60306683
yeah
>>60306694
>songwriter
yes (disagree, your opinion is retarded)
>singer
no, not even a bit.
>>60307051
It's like you totally forgot the Dylan of the 80's and 90's
>>60306694
bruh!
>>60307003
>modern day minstrel show
Got me to giggle
>>60306832
Hank Williams Sr, Townes Van Zandt and Blaze Foley all trump him when it comes to sad songs and that's just out of country singers alone.
>>60307063
His lows don't diminish his highs. Waits doesn't have anything of the electric era's quality.
>>60306683
no but he's up there
<spoiler>it's actually Tim Buckley</spoiler>
Does Stevie wonder count? If so then it's definitely Stevie wonder
>>60307094
>Waits doesn't have anything of the electric era's quality.
Uh huh.
>>60307063
>i can't believe a guy who made music back in 1962 had a period of making bad music
>>60307003
He borrowed just as readily from Captain Beefheart , Leonard Cohen, and the Pogues. jazz was one phase among many in his career.
And btw, he does the best Louis Armstrong impressions you'll ever hear.
>>60307003
you are wayyyyy behind the times if that's all you can say
>>60307063
time out of mind is a pretty good album
>>60307128
Well, Waits has been making music since early 70's and never had a long-lived low point. You can maybe make cases about specific albums, but never whole decades
>>60307126
I stand by my claim. Waits has said time and again he doesn't pour his heart out in songs, that they aren't diary entries and it affects the emotional enjoyment of his songs.
>>60307177
>implying those period's were all bad albums
>>60307180
Same with Dylan.
>>60307225
Listen to I Believe in You again and tell me that isn't a man singing from the bottom of his heart.
>>60307225
Dylan's full of shit about Blood on the Tracks. He's a professional troll anyway, you can't trust a thing he says
>>60307094
How do his lows not diminish his highs if we're talking about him as an overall artist? When someone makes 20 years of subpar music, I'm inclined to factor that in when I think of him as an artist. Just because he had some of the best albums of all time doesn't mean he didn't make shitty ones. Still one of the greatest songwriters alive, but probably not the greatest one
>>60307246
His own son has said otherwise.
>>60307257
Because no one else has reached his highs.
>>60307245
Read anything about Dylan and learn he's been playing a character or a series of characters his whole life.
>>60307263
Dylan's own mistress at the time said half the songs were personally about her.
>>60307066
A southern man don't need him around anyhow
>>60307094
I adore every songwriter you listed. I'm tempted to argue with you but, I think I'll relent and say this:
Over his 40+ year career, Tom Waits has produced at least one heartbreakingly masterstroke of a song per album, as opposed to blaze, townes, or hank who burned out very quickly in their own respective ways. This privilege gives Tom the superior repertoire in my opinion.
>>60307286
Consistency is more important than a scant few highs. It's like saying The beach Boys were better than The Beatles.
>>60307331
>Over his 40+ year career, Tom Waits has produced at least one heartbreakingly masterstroke of a song per album,
I highly disagree with this.
>>60307341
I consider The Beatles better than The Beach Boys but I disagree with this too.
>>60307286
When it comes to what? Dylan's strength lie almost solely in lyrics, his music has always simply been a vessel for lyrics. Even then, you make a case for any number of artists to write songs just as well as Dylan, Tom Waits included. Leonard Cohen and Bruce Springsteen also come mind
>>60307365
Tom Waits was musically more daring than Dylan ever was.
>>60307180
>he doesn't pour his heart out in songs
What is Who Are You? Jersey Girl?
>>60307404
Neither pertain to his own life and come across more as acting more than anything else.
>>60307157
Not to say he was wholly shitty in those decades, he was just far from where he was
>>60307396
Truth right here.
>>60307424
Oh did Dylan do any of the things mentioned in Tangled Up In Blue?
>>60306683
What about this qt? Or is he too new and popular for you guys to care?
>>60307424
You're literally wrong
>>60307453
Yes, actually. Multiple aspects of the song have been connected to his own life, specifically the later verses about living in a basement, the book of poetry from the thirteenth century and trying in vain to get his love back.
>>60307493
Prove it. Show me when he was employed on a fishing boat in New Orleans.
>>60307180
you say that, but then there's "Johnsburg, Illinois"
>>60307516
You asked for any, not all.
>>60307539
Not him but you are such a faggot
>>60307539
One example is enough to prove he's being dishonest in his lyrics. Would you like me to give you another one?
>>60307555
I never said anything about blatant honesty, I've been talking about singing from the heart the entire time in this discussion. Dylan's music and songs have changed as his life have and have always pertained to the events in his life. Waits is just having fun when he's singing about Chicago, Dylan was a religious man when he sang about Every Grain of Sand.
Waits himself has said this in interviews.
>>60307599
How do you know Dylan does it but Waits doesn't?
>>60307615
Because I've read multiple biographies of both and very little of the stories Waits writes in his songs coincide with the events of his life.
>>60307599
Dylan doesn't always sing about his own personal issues all the time. They may be based on experiences, but if you think he's baring his soul on all his songs you're sorely mistaken.
>>60307655
List them
>>60307257
>20 years of subpar music
That is a stretch. He had a couple clunkers, certainly not 20 years worth....
>I’m like a ventriloquist. You end up doing it in order to survive. So you never have to be where you say you are. It’s just simpler after awhile. You have at least two rooms in your house. And you’re never in both at the same time.
http://www.americansongwriter.com/2011/07/top-10-quotes-from-tom-waits-on-tom-waits/
>>60307396
>Tom Waits was musically more daring than Dylan ever was.
>>60307677
Far more often than Waits does.
>>60307691
More like subpar when compared to his other works, most aren't awful or anything they're just not as good
desu you fags are arguing about Tom Waits' biggest asset. He's an amazing actor. It's what makes his music so compelling
>>60307716
This is entirely true though. Dylan has said repeatedly he thinks of himself more as a poet than a songwriting.
>>60307727
This, they keep talking about it like its a bad thing that makes him less genuine
>>60307716
>a folk musician playing an electric guitar!
>so brave!
you have to be 18 to post here
>>60307424
>>60307453
>Thinking a song has to literally be about the singer to be personal.
kek
>>60307748
*than a musician
>>60307762
>guys, i read this wiki article
>i'm i smart now?
>>60307764
per·son·al
ˈpərs(ə)n(ə)l/
adjective
1.
of, affecting, or belonging to a particular person rather than to anyone else.
"her personal fortune was recently estimated at $37 million"
synonyms: direct, empirical, firsthand, immediate, experiential
"I have personal knowledge of the family"
2.
of or concerning one's private life, relationships, and emotions rather than matters connected with one's public or professional career.
"the book describes his acting career and gives little information about his personal life"
synonyms: private, intimate; More
>>60307764
>thinking if a singer sings a song it's automatically personal
OK
>>60307718
You say that like it makes him a better songwriter, which just tells me you don't actually know anything about songwriting. Valuing honesty above all else in songwriting is an extremely juvenile way of looking at the artistry behind it
>>60307480
this + nick drake imho
>>60307791
I primarily look for things to move me more than anything, Waits fails to do so more than Dylan does.
>>60307787
>>60307764
>>60307786
Why are you guys so assured that being personal implies quality? I can write some extremely personal, extremely shitty songs right now
>>60307786
pe·dan·tic
pəˈdan(t)ik/
adjective
adjective: pedantic
of or like a pedant.
"many of the essays are long, dense, and too pedantic to hold great appeal"
synonyms: overscrupulous, scrupulous, precise, exact, perfectionist, punctilious, meticulous, fussy, fastidious, finicky;
>>60307787
I never said that.
>>60307830
>it moves me, so it must be objectively better
There's your problem
>>60307785
>I made some meme arrows
>am I right now?
>>60307850
This discussion is inherently subjective.
>>60307833
>Why are you guys so assured that being personal implies quality?
I didn't, and no one here is arguing that either artist makes bad music...
>>60307862
This, anyone who says otherwise is a faggot
>>60307862
That's the point I was making, but this discussion is so riddled with objective statements its absurd
>>60307833
Shouldn't you be quoting this guy >>60307599
>>60307854
nobody cares
>>60307926
>he said, hitting the "post" button
>>60307862
Then why'd you state it as objective fact?
Close, but he's not Paul
>>60307942
nobody cares
>>60307947
How one's songs relate to their life can be noted and measured.
>>60307925
Probably, I got a little overzealous on the quoting....
>>60307982
>measured
Except it literally can't
>>60307942
>>60307854
nobody cares
>>60307982
Are you saying emotional impact is objective because it can be measured?
>>60307973
>he said, hitting the "post" button
>>60306683
No, because Strauss, Schubert, Schumann, Faure and Poulenc exist.
>>60308034
>> >>60307854
>>60308019
>he said, hitting the "post" button
>>60308051
>Strauss, Schubert, Schumann, Faure and Poulenc
>singer-songwriter
>>60307066
Lol canada
>>60308061
nobody cares
>>60308022
>>60308002
No, I'm saying the biographical aspects of songwriting can be.
>>60308159
*Based on on interpretation, which is subjective, not objective.
>>60308076
Just means they're even better than waits because anyone can sing their works, just get the score.
desu senpai idk cbf
>>60308159
But you have yet to explain how that, in any way, makes one song stand out over another.
he had to have been the guy who sang bear necessities
>>60306694
>>60306683
Waits is my favorite of all time, Dylan is close behind. Personally if we're going to compare both of them in the peaks of their career I would say Dylan wins out, but if we're going to take entire discographies into account I would say Waits wins out.
I haven't enjoyed any of his work post-The Black Rider, but he's still very very good.
>>60308271
Alice tho
>>60308293
Alice was pre Black Rider
>>60308271
Really? Not even Mule Variations of Alice? If you haven't given them that much attention I would definitely say give it another shot. Real Gone is my favorite album of his and my favorite album of all time.
>>60308269
Yeah, I can get behind this
>>60308321
bruh. make it rain, dont go in to that barn, hoist that rag. that album is fucking brilliant.
>>60306683
His piano was a great drinking buddy, even though the waitress hated us and all of our friends and the telephone constantly ran out of cigarettes. (And what the fuck was the deal with the balcony and the spotlight? Get away from me, kid, you bother me!)
>post yfw you found out the lyrics to Kentucky Avenue are true, none of the names were changed and his best friend growing up was actually a crippled kid with polio
Is there a more feelsy song ever?
>>60308321
I was personally underwhelmed by Blood Money and Mule Variations. I'll get around to listening to them both again to see if my opinion has changed though.
>ctrl+f townes
>2 results
why are you so pleb, /mu/??
>>60310181
>Townes
Literally was listening to For the Sake of the Song when I came into this thread just now.
>>60310160
I loved mule variations. I remember buying it from a friend's dad's record store, and going into the back room with some headphones and kicking back with it when i was like 14. "take it with me" is top tier feels Waits.
I have the entire Tom Waits discography. Where should I start?
>>60311409
can't go wrong
>>60311409
The beginning.
>>60311409
Swordfishtrombones
>>60311409
>Owning his discography
Literally why.
Rain Dogs > Mule Variations > Bone Machine > Alice
The rest of his albums are trash tier.
>>60306683
In my humble opinion, yes he is OP
>>60312014
that opinion is trash tier
>>60312014
>no Blood Money
>no Swordfishtrombones
try harder
>>60312014
>i browsed le internets for 5 minutes and now I think I know music
Pleb
>>60306683
No.
>>60312383
Who is?
>>60312014
>no Closing Time
>no Swordfishtrombones
idiot
>>60312552
>closing time
That ain't even close to being the best from his early records
>>60312596
being that wrong
>>60312014
>Mule Variations
>good
Fuck off.
>>60312644
nighthawks>small change>Saturday night>closing time>foreign affair
Fight me
>>60312718
I won't fight you because I mixed it up. lmao
Blue Valentine (if you consider early works) > Small Change > Saturday Night > Closing Time > Foreign Affair
Never heard nighthawks, is it worth a listen?
>>60312750
It's his "live" album, imo it's pretty good, has some funny songs and some really touching ones 7, 5/10 for me
Listen to Big Joe and phantom 309, if you like it check out the whole album
>>60312750
I never liked blue valentine but I haven't heard it in a long long time
Should I give it another shot?
>>60312835
You definitively should. I just have heard it this morning and it sounds fresh, fun and thrilling as fuck.
Keytracks IMO:
>Christmas Card from a Hooker (beautiful ballad with awesome storytelling)
>$29 (bluesy 8 minutes long track)
>Whistlin' (uncompromising drunk-vibe fun)
>Kentucky Avenue (your average heartbreaking ballad with raspy awesome Wait's vocal)
Album works so fine and easily becoming one of favs. I think you'll enjoy it, anon.
>>60312908
Just finished listening to the key tracks and I'm checking the rest of the album
Way better than I remembered but still would rate it under small change
Also, I wouldn't know if it is "early waits" but it's also quite different to heartattack, sworfish and frank wild so idk
>>60312014
wow you really know nothing about music whatsoever
>>60313335
What are your favorite tracks in Small Change?
yes yes
waits and dylan and elliot smith
THOSE are the best
>>60313552
Top 3:
The piano has been drinking
Pasties and a G string
Invitation to the blues
>>60313670
I only know "needle in the hay", tried to listen to more but I didn't like anything.
What would you recommend?
>>60313689
hahahhahaha that's not Elliot Smith senpai
>>60308269
This is accurate
Though I dislike a lot about Dylan's music and don't consider him a good songwriter compared to say Bowie
With Waits, there's barely any album you can't just pick up and enjoy since he got weirder and more experimental the further down the rabbit hole he got
>>60313703
Really? In a wes anderson soundtrack it said so
Maybe a cover?
>>60313753
no the song is Smiths but the picture posted is that of Sufjan Stevens
>>60313689
you damned idiot. that is not Elliot smith
>>60306694
Any other pick is objectively wrong, by any metric.
It became cool to hate on Bob Dylan at some point. But I think this is ignoring how groundbreaking of an album Blonde on Blonde was, or how folk could be talked about comprehensively in terms pre-Dylan and post-Dylan. He's a colossal figure, and condemning his music for being "boring" or "amateurish" doesn't satisfy. In terms of who changed the arc of 20th century music the most, it has to go to Dylan. But the question was who's the greatest, so a lot of people here are talking about taste.
Either way you talk about it, Dylan and Waits have to be top 5, and I'd also throw in Cohen.
>>60308248
It makes it more enjoyable to me and most often times gives a reason for the artist to put more of their heart into their work. I have less reason to listen to a songwriter who's mostly an actor. I say this about Bowie too.
>>60308201
Fine then, since you guys asked me to pick apart the aspects of Tangled Up in Blue that were related to Dylan's life, tell me what relates to Waits in Singapore.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NPA__ra9uY
>>60306683
Yeah probably
i think the best music comes from a great friendship, and these two have proved it
objectively top 3:
t waits
t buckley
n young
>>60307958
Is that Paul Rudd
>>60308269
What, his 2-4 album streak from the mid 60s? Those albums aren't interesting, relevant or daring anymore.
His music sure isn't exciting, and Dylan's poetry is only good in the context of music. Like how a great video game story is usually mediocre by any other definition. Swordfishtrombones and Rain Dogs stand up to any Dylan "streak". Waits is a way better writer anyway, and conveys emotion greater tenfold.
>>60313990
Who gives a shit about Dylan and Cohen besides Pace University girls and old people? I could pick names out of a fucking hat and get people more influential to music than Dylan or Cohen. Buncha feelsy fucking self-hating jews.
>>60306694
chilll
Well Tom Waits has been more experimental than Dylan. That does not mean he is better. But both are great and Bob has experimented on Highway 61.
>>60315456
Dylan is literally the single most influential rock musician from the 60s onwards
>>60307480
It's very cool and very hip not to mention an artists name when talking about him.
>>60307003
>All he does is poorly imitate black jazz and blues singers which is racist as fuck
MUH CULTURAL APPROPRIATION
fuck off
>>60312014
>no the heart of saturday night
>no closing time
>no swordfishtrombones
>no the black rider
literally fuck you
>>60307003
>>60316912
Zappa.
It's always Zappa. Objectively better than any other musician in his field during his career.
>>60318810
Zappa's probably the single most untalented person I've heard in my life. He's a two-bit pretentious academic, and he can't play rock'n'roll, because he's a loser. And that's why he dresses up funny. He's not happy with himself, and I think he's right.
>>60318880
>He's a two-bit pretentious
yeah, a little bit
>academic
>untalented
>can't play rock'n'roll
>loser
>that's why he dresses up funny
literally ?
>>60306694
ripping off folk songs does not a songwriter make
![1253_user1_090222-163528[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/ykjyF1s.jpg "1253_user1_090222-163528[1].jpg")
Don't mind me boys, just being a better singer-songwriter than anyone else in this thread
>>60318810
Zappa's talked about how Subterranean Homesick Blues was an influence on him.
>>60315456
Dylan was a primary influence on Hendrix, Townes Van Zandt and Lou Reed. That's hard rock, country and underground rock all drawing influence - with differing amounts obviously - from him.
here's a TV show where Tom Waits goes fishing with his friend and gets seasick immediately.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdLyt2EsQ0Q
also Swordfishtrombones is the best album.
>"When I heard Like a Rolling Stone," said Frank Zappa, in 1965 a 24-year-old Los Angeles satirist, "I wanted to quit the music business because I felt: 'If this wins and it does what it's supposed to do, I don't need to do anything else.'"
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2005/may/13/bobdylan
