Looking at the entirety of FiM, and a lot of the lines and lore around cutie marks, how they tie to the tree, the map, destiny, controlled/compelled actions of ponies by the tree, etc. I can't help but feel like there's something very off and disturbing about the Tree of Harmony.
Through cutie marks, which stem from its magic, since we've seen can be activated by the map, which is a part of the tree, along with having Sunbutt, Luna, and Twilight's marks on its trunk long before they actually got their marks, or were even born suggests that the tree is not just tied to the mane 6's and princesses destinies and magic, but everypony in Equestria. Contoling their fates, their magic, using everyone as puppets to carry out its will of bringing harmony to society, without their consent or even knowledge of the true nature of things. While simultaneously altering the nature of what creature dares to defy its will.
One word that Tirek threw around a lot was freedom. I find it disturbing that the tree's will can alter even Discord's inherent nature as a spirit of chaos. How he was meant to be. How he always has been. Could that be why he sought to strangle the tree, under the belief that a peron's inherent nature shouldn't be altered in such a way? I mean, he was turned to stone twice, for just being himself, but that went against the Tree's will, so it used the element bearers to stone him.
Was Tirek trying to do the same? Stealing magic granted by the tree, a mechanism that the tree used to control everypony, in order to free them from controlled and manipulated destinies by the puppeteer tree. That would explain why Tirek was lazerbeaming the Everfree forest in blind rage- looking to destroy the tree with its own power that he collected from the ponies. (cont.)
It would explain why the mane 5 beleived that their switched cutie marks were what they had always been doing. "It's what my cutie mark is telling me". And the marks are bestowed by and connected to the magic of the tree. Again, seeing as how the tree controlls the cutie map, and the 6's marks, and compel them to go places to impose its will on others.
The ponies have no choice, because they're puppets of the tree, and I'm completely freaked out by this. Tirek was only freeing the ponies of the Tree's influence and magic. He opposed the Tree's will, and was unjustly punished or it.
Is it season 10 yet?
>>26919631
>>26919636
This is too deep anon
You're giving the toy commercial too much credit
>>26919631
Do you realise the new writers don't give a fuck about lore and they'll ignore anything before season 5 at best?
>>26919631
Where there is light, there must be darkness.
Extremism no matter the direction is inherently bad. This includes the totalitarian fist of complete and unquestionable harmony.
>>26919631
The Tree of Harmony is just a metaphor for the Force. It's the power destiny and of all things "good" given form.
>"Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him."
>"You mean it controls your actions?"
>"Partially. But it also obeys your commands."
>>26919838
Again it's like poetry, it rhymes.
>>26919631
Calm the fuck down dude.
2deep4me
Yeah, this has been apparent since at least the Cutie Pox episode.
The Elements are mostly "good" and definitely motivated by upholding Order, in both the metaphysical and societal sense.
They are not above manipulating and controlling others to do so.
They are definitely using the Element bearers to do their bidding in the physical world, with little regard to what they want - they let Twilight suffer through immense emotional distress in the Cutie Remark, just so she would get a pupil, an immensely powerful one...
Whatever plan the Elements are following, it is probably based on knowledge of future events combined with alien mindsets. That they allowed Luna to fall and Celestia to lose their blessing indicates that they either are fallible, or, more likely, that they have a longer time perspective and would give up two alicorn princesses for Twilight and what she can do for them.
Tirek is, of course, not a good guy, and wasn't motivated by a desire to free anyone from any yoke. He wanted to rule with an ethereal fist.
>>26919631
>>26919636
>>26920398
Is the tree some kind of god? Or maybe something put there by a god to carry out their will?
>>26920481
The will of the only true God.
I just wonder who or what controls the tree. It clearly has some conception of the current world it is in.
>>26919745
Or the opposite where "older" writers will dismiss any past S2-3 as unimportant
>>26920543
>implying there is anything past then that sticks to lore
>>26920481
more importantly, how does Flurry Heart fit into all this?
>The FIRST natural Alicorn
>EVER
>NOT EVEN THE ALICORNS OF SUN AND MOON ARE "NATURAL"
>>26920481
It is at least as godlike as Discord. It has fewer powers than him, but is more powerful. This is why it uses intermediaries. It can perceive the future, or else the map would be useless, and see what courses of action will have the results it desires. Didn't it also effectively exist outside of time in the Cutie Remark?
>>26919631
Good to see someone else who thinks this.
I honestly think that a physical manifestation of the ToH would be the best choice for the series' final villain: It controls the destinies of the other characters, is canonically the most powerful entity in the series and it's been suspiciously secretive of it's motives up until this point.
Hell, if the writers wanted to be smart about it, they could make the way in which the Tree controls destiny an allegory for Hasbro's executive meddling.
>>26920579
Probably the first of many, the fruition of its work over millennia.
>>26920633
no, I think Flurry is actually a subversion of it's natural order, it has CHOSEN who ascends on all other occasions, why not this time?
>>26920652
It still will be able to influence her through her future mark.
Natural born alicorns do not require the massive energy expenditure that ascensions do, so it can begin ramping up production.
fausticorn was the only natural born alicorn. she was born a god amongst ponies and slowly began to shape the world around her using both the elements of chaos and harmony together uniting them as the elements of Creativity, eventually however her creativity got the better of her, and chaos grew to powerful with her supposed companion Discord. (evidence of it being he is the only of his kind and like Fausticorn can use creativity to will into existence anything he likes) and in creating a being as powerful as herself she eventually lost, becoming imprisoned in what we now know as the tree of harmony, while discord was allowed to live free and cause mayhem. but all was not lost, the creativity and power of faust still lived on in the tree, allowing her (to an extent) still have influence on the world around her, eventually the Sisters would be given a taste of her all-power to combat discord. they were made alicorns and given control of the elements of harmony by mother, however once the rise of nightmare moon came about mother feared for her children again and allowed celestia to use the elements one last time. from then their use would be denied to her and her sister, and were sealed away as relics of powerful magic of yore, eventually mothers influence would grow and she would create a way to extend her will to combat the remaining chaos with the birth of the mane 6, soon to become element bearers, mortal and flawed so they could appreciate power instead of abuse it. then everything changed when Celestia and Luna had learned enough magics of the past to create more alicorns by unnatural means, and ones loyal to them even if they seemed "good" that could always change.. mother knew this and took things into her own hands, she saw fit to give a gift to the child of Mortal and unnaturally created being of magic. Flurry Heart is the next step in mothers plan with magic that rivals all others its simply her learning to wield the elements of creativity
>>26920786
also, please forgive grammar mistakes, English is not my first
Id love this concept to be explored. Like i dont know anon, or a creature outisde of the trees influence Is trying to destroy the tree. A subversion of the whole light=good dark=bad trope.maybe the tree could of created a place to seal away anything that threatened it, like in dark souls how anor londo created the painted world.
>>26920579
The first born in the tree's area of influence (remember faggots Equestria has always been a place, not the entire world).
Maybe it goes back further. The land the folks in HWE found looks suspiciously like Canterlot's mountain. The damn tree has been planning this since at least Starswirl's days. It planned the fall of the Crystal Empire, Discord's reign, Nightmare Moon, and all of their return. But for what goal?
This thread is a prime example of why we do not do show discussion.
>>26921155
>literally everything has led up to the birth of Flurry Heart
>she is the Jesus analogue for the Tree
>>26921162
What would you have us do?
>>26921183
Not be cancer.
>>26921155
Yes it's a place but the princesses would have mentioned if they were born
>>26921301
Except they weren't born there. Partly because it didn't exist yet (I know anon hard to believe but there was an Equestria before the sisters, see Discord and HWE) or was not the area they were born in. Now the weirder part is, what if the other big freakout is that Flurryheart should be a goddamn impossibility, she's the natural born alicorn child of at least one non-alicorn and an ambiguous one on birth (depends on how canon the Crystal Heart Spell book is).
Because like every time this has come up, faggots keep on keeping on with ignoring what her royal highness princess exact words to compound problems said to stay in maximum "canon wuined" mode.
>>26921163
Oh anon, Flurryheart was just a pawn to teach Starlight Glimmer a lesson, there's something more there.
>>26921384
LET US ASSUME that Luna and Celestia were in fact naturally born, WHY would they point out that Flurry is the first naturally born in equestria, what is SO IMPORTANT about that fact that they would feel the need to mention it if they themselves are natural-born alicorns? just because it's the first naturally born princess of a nation doesn't mean anything unless it's the first natural born princess in the WORLD
>>26920579
Celestia and Luna weren't "born" they were created. They're elemental. It's different.
>>26919631
>>26919636
I knew since s5 started that the three was more than a magical object
I mean, why the fuck would it send the mane6 to certain places
Hope writers think about it and do the same as s4, were the entire season was leading to the finale
>>26921456
Let's assume the Journal and Crystal Heart Spell are true.
If I remember Celestia and Luna weren't exactly from a large land of them, possibly even the last if their kind. She's the first born within Equestria's borders. She's born from a former pegasus and a unicorn rather than two alicorns. And finally the first after at least 1000 years, if not more given that Starswirl had to seek out the sisters.
Basically Flurryheart is not only rare in the time of the show, by all accounts she should be an impossibility.
>>26921571
If that was the case they would have said only allicorns born since our time.
I dunno guys, in the premiere they put so much effort in showing Flurry as an alicorn that, if they are broking canon its because they have something planned
>>26922396
Celestia said in Equestria. And well given that the sisters weren't born in Equestria, and their parents wouldn't be as well.
I think you get the idea. Basically, it's Celestia being literal again only this time it's the audience being idiots instead if Twalot.
>>26921162
What's wrong with it?
>>26919631
So you're saying it's a plant?
I read a story on fimfiction that played with this idea, albeit from Sunset Shimmer's POV. She'd been groomed by Celestia to be The One her entire life, but when Sunset's cutie mark didn't match the one on the Tree of Harmony...well...her ability to live up to the challenge of being a princess never mattered because she was never a candidate to begin with.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/309133/everything-ive-ever-wanted
>>26923511
Damn, that's actually an interesting, original concept. Might read that some time.
>>26919631
All I got out of this is "The Tree of Harmony is Hasbro."
>>26921155
>But for what goal?
The lulz.
>>26919631
how high are you?
I really fucking like this idea. I've been mulling a story about something very closely related to this idea for a long time now.
>>26919631
> he thinks a tree has a will
seriously?
> he thinks the tree is special
There is nothing that special about cutie mark manipulation. Twilight did it. Starlight did it.
> he thinks the tree is somehow an all powerful destiny controller
It was almost killed by Discord's fucking vines without the elements.
The tree never does anything. It only offers a choice by providing resources. It is the actions of individual ponies that bring about harmony. You cannot deny that ponies had to use the elements for them to have any effect.
> cutie marks
There is no reason the tree had to be referring to Celestia and Luna and Twilight. The Sun, Moon, and Stars are common symbols. The other elements were regular crystal shapes before being attached to the mane 6.
Also, Discord was not really altered. The nature of chaos is that it is unpredictable. Discord being reformed was the most unexpected thing he could do. He can do more to advance chaos while free than encased in stone.
>>26923387
Celestia would have fucking said if that was the case she's not that obtuse
Even if she was Luna was right there to
>>26925328
And again, lets face it, it is big since, once again, seeming impossibility given what we know (Celestia and Luna were born, most likely from parents with horns and wings), Flurryheart from a unicorn and a pegasus turned alicorn, and is the first they know of being born within the borders if Equestria. Jesus, how hard are you going to cling to "muh canon defiled" because you need an excuse. Hell I'm defending the shit she said and feel the Flurryheart shit was the weakest part of the episode, since it was clear that the Sunburst and Doug Glimmado owner of this Glimmsdale Glimmadome's stuff was the main plot of the tied plot. So why do you fags continue on the weren't born alicorns, when nothing was even implied aside from McFlurry being a weird and oddly momentous birth for the country of Equestria, hell quite possibly the Crystal Empire for different reasons of course.
>>26922396
The episode was written by Josh Haber, who has flat out said the show's just a paycheck to him and to keep your expectations low.
Pondering this more, if the ToH is legit a physical representation of whatever forces are fugging with the natural order (either for a reason for just for keks), then that would mean that everything happening has happened for a pre-meditated and on purpose reason, whether pones indeed wanted such or not.
But if so, then it makes one wonder the obvious here: Glimglam becoming nerdhorse's pupil in friendship and magic, the new babby alicorn, the BEEG map that throws pones to places across the world as if to try to unite everyone together, even more mentions of Starswirl, and so much more...
What is the main plan here that would require every one of these pieces on the chess board known as horseland? I mean hell, Tirek is already banished and sealed up tightly in basically pony hell prison, Discord is practically a good guy now, Sombra is kill, Moonbutt would rather an hero than ever become Nightmare Moon again, and as much as I love me sum bugpones, I doubt Chrysalis is returning any time soon barring flashbacks or S5 finale-tier weird shit.
Just what the fuck would be so dangerous, grand and/or land or even world-threatening that the forces at play here are trying to get as much shit going as possible whilst they can?
You're scaring me
>>26926345
This is one of the reasons why I still watch the show: it's clear that DHX are building towards this massive climax.
>>26920688
But what about the changeling that showed up in the background of the premier that looked to be carrying something, right before Flurry stops being able to destroy shit? What if the changelings are fighting the Tree, so they body-swapped Flurry because they know her existence defies the Tree? What if they use freaky changeling magic to prevent her from getting her mark while her magic can flourish? What about the fake Flurry that's now in the Empire that can leech love from the PRINCESS OF LOVE and the Crystal Heart itself?
Hold me anon, I'm scared.
>>26926345
>>26927341
Fucking this.
I really want to see where this will go.
>>26928135
Expanding on this, what if the Tree imposed its will on nature to further its own goals? Which would explain why only ponies can control the weather, sun and moon, as they're the ones that the Tree can control.
Which would explain why Discord's vines almost killed it. They originated from the Everfree, which the Tree doesn't have control of.
This shit goes deep.
>>26928309
>The Everfree wasn't trying to keep ponies out of it
>It was trying to keep what was in it out of ponies
Fug.
>>26919631
If true, doesn't this put a starkly darker tone on the whole 'griffons might be able to get cutie marks' business we got a hint of a while back?
The Tree, having pacified all immediate threats in Equestria itself, is looking beyond its borders.
>>26928378
What if Starlight is now a main character because she's the one who can remove cutie marks, thus removing the tree's means of control?
>>26928406
I'd thought of that too, yeah. That the tree 'revealed' the cutie map right in time to shut down her unmarking operation does seem shifty.
Intriged bump
>>26920606
Makes me think of garnets future vision in a way. The ability to see millions of outcomes from any given action or event. That's how it can "change" the future and seemingly have the ability to know the future.
>>26920610
underrated comment
If I was the a villain in the series, I would have used the tree to restart time to 1 week before S1 and deleting the memories of the mane 6 in the process but not their emotional maturity so in the future after a few tries, they manage to defeat me and destroy the damn tree in the process.
>>26920606
So... the tree is a Lovecraftian being of facets and eldritch angles?
>>26922396
We know from the Journal that Luna and Celestia were young, which means they had a beginning. However, it was never written that they were born. Perhaps they were made from clay and had life breathed into them. Maybe the stars shone on a special night and resulted in two baby alicorns. Or maybe they were budded from another pony.
>>26920579
we don't know that. they are very old, and were around before equestria
AND they said in equestria's history, not "ever"
>>26923511
>I read a story on fimfiction that played with this idea, albeit from Sunset Shimmer's POV. She'd been groomed by Celestia to be The One her entire life, but when Sunset's cutie mark didn't match the one on the Tree of Harmony...well...her ability to live up to the challenge of being a princess never mattered because she was never a candidate to begin with.
Something I'd like to see the series explore, although I have no idea how they'd do it in 22-minute segments, would be just HOW THE HELL MANY STUDENTS has Celestia rekt in what appears to be an increasingly desperate search for a successor? Shimmy, Glimmy, and the not-technically-rekt burnouts like Sunburst and Moondancer? (Or would Shimmy/Sunburst be the ones rekt by flunking of Celestia's School for Gifted Unicorns, and Glimmer/Moondancer are the burnouts who never went there at all?)
>>26933496
A lot of unicorns went to Celestia's school, but only Spergle was her protegée (and Sunset if you count Equestria Girls), because of the potential she saw on her and maybe the fact that her cutiemark was the one on the tree of harmony
>>26919631
>>26919636
You've seen Tirek's world, you've seen Discord's world, and you've even seen Sombra's world.
The world Nightmare Moon offers is nothing compared to the other ones, because NMM is still bound by Harmony.
The current world, Celestia's world, and by extension Harmony's world is the best option available. We've seen what a distorted reality holds, everything else is unsustainable and leads to destruction.
The ponies have no choice, because if they choose, the world will end. Tirek wasn't freeing them, he was leading them on yet another surefire path to damnation and ruin.
>>26928309
>Tree doesn't have control of the Everfree
But what about what Celestia said?
>We have managed to discover the only means by which we can defeat Discord and free the citizens of Equestria. Even without these elements, the Tree of Harmony will possess a powerful magic. As long as that magic remains, it will continue to control and contain all that grows here.
>>26934891
Different anon, but i think that's just it. It cant control the everfree directly but it can inhibit the growth. But it cant stop it if it is brought outside the boundaries of the forest. Like the vines for example.
>>26926345
Perhaps these manifestations are, in fact, the malicious entities that you speak of. Trying to take away free will.
>>26934891
If we're going along with this train of thought we have to assume that anything said by ponies with cutie marks is what the Tree wants us to think. Or it could be like the other anon said where it can inhibit the forest but not control it.
