Does any notable thinker actually promote nationalism?
For me, it seems like one of the biggest spook that is growing, festering on the sheeples for populism and increasing the conformaty. When will man finally evolve into the self-actualized wonder we have the capacity to become?
Do we really need a nation? The nation is just a glorification of the state, a pride in something/someone other than yourself, which in my opinion is one of the biggest illusions one can have.
What does /lit/ think?
>>8251949
>The nation is just a glorification of the state
It can be, but in many cases it is a glorification of culture.
Besides, you only know what you've lost when it's gone forever, so be careful what you wish for.
I think internationalism makes political sense as a form of co-operation, but I don't think that nation states should be destroyed, because national sovereignity keeps supra-national institutions from becoming too powerful if you ask me.
Nationalism or any idea that one culture is better than another is pure horseshit that only completely ignorant adults and mentally inept edgy teens on 4chan subscribe to
>>8251977
Culture should be cheerished, but it should not be associated as a political power like it is today. Culture and power should have nothing to do with each others.
Wether the state should exists or not is a different topic. Globalism isn't something i promote either though.
>>8251999
Globalism is only a problem as far as multinationals white washing the world. What we need is more glocalization wherein things are global but with unique peculiarities to the specifics of location
Globalism should be celebrated.
Too long have we been restricted by imaginary borders.
Too long have we be restricted by old-fashioned, racist ideas like "national identity" and "if you're an immigrant you're worse than me"
Too long have we chosen to hate people based on their "country"
Too long have we turned vulnerable people away because they don't fit into "our" "culture".
Imagine a world that is United, a world of love and cooperation. A world where the past can be forgotten, and the future cherished.
>>8251986
I think "no culture is superior" is one of the most emptiest statements to ever exist
no one actually believes yet we all have to pretend we do
>>8252019
It's pretty much true though.
I'd say some are superior in ways though (black culture is far more complex and exciting than white culture), but claiming white culture is "better" than other cultures has only lead to bad things, such as: WW1 & 2; Nazism; The Holocaust; Colonialism; The Roman Invasion of Africa; Slavery; and Racism.
What good has ever came of it? Oh that's right, a bunch of virgins circle jerking their "culture" online.
>>8251949
Fredric Jameson, in a dialectical sort of way.
>>8252019
>no one actually believes yet we all have to pretend we do
This lol.
Anyone who claims that their culture isn't superior to others should start trying out some of the good tidbits of others, such as honor-killing their daughter for being raped.
>>8252030
>but claiming white culture is "better" than other cultures has only lead to bad things, such as: WW1
You don't know what you are talking about.
>>8251949
Originally, yes- nationalism was invented by German intellectuals like Fichte and Herder.
These days? Not that I can think of, but there must be some conservative intellectuals arguing for it. It's interesting that it's made a massive comeback, since for a lot of the twentieth century it was assumed to be dying.
>>8252015
How profound.
>>8252036
WW1 was caused by national identity you imbecile.
If they all accepted their national identies were non-existent spooks, and accepted they were global citizens, the war would not have started.
>>8252030
why are you bringing up race?
>>8252042
>WW1 was caused by national identity you imbecile.
WW1, was caused by among other things, Prussian militarism, imperialism, absurd alliances that were remnants of the Napoleonic Wars, and historical ethnic tensions.
It's never as simple as "Nationalism causes X", but simple-minded people need simple answers.
>>8251949
Heidegger?
In Zizek's film he talks about how solidarity of the people is a good thing, something like "There is nothing wrong with dis [solidarity of the people] , I claim, but a solidarity to what kind of people?"
The idea of a nation might be a huge spook, but the idea of a unified group of people as something to be loyal to is almost as spooky. So in that sense Marx and friends.
>>8252048
Exactly, and if they chucked away the idea of white ethnicity, white imperialism, and aggressive alliances, and instead accepted they were citizens of the same state (the world) the war wouldn't have happened.
>>8252030
kill yourself right now
>>8252052
why (outside of baiting) are you equating whiteness with nationalism?
>>8252044
I'm not sure if you've noticed honey, but most of the problems brought into the world (such as aggressive concepts such as cultural supremacy, nationalism, and imperialism) were created by white men.
>>8252052
There was no "white ethnicity" or "white imperialism" in the 1910s.
"White" as a cultural or ethnic category is literally a slave-holding American invention.
>>8252030
ooga booga round the fireplace to drums is more complex and exciting than Bach, Nietzche and civilization?
>>8252030
Nah bro, i don't think any culture is more "complex" or rich. It's just different forms of expressions in the human mentality, formed socially and by enviroment.
In this context, culture is a pretty empty word. It's the practice of the culture that should be preserved.
But if you think colonialism, roman invasion on africa and slavery has anything to do with culture, youre dead wrong.
Denouncing a culture as barbaric is a trick old as literature.
What do you think the Gilgamesh epic is really about? Why didn't Enkidu try to console with the animals again and more importantly, why was the work written? I think that there is a political message that should be taken into account.
By denouncing Enkidus ways, letting him fuck a hooker and feast on chickenz you basically mark your culture as more superior as the other, in a literally sense. But that's only a bait, as the ultimate goal was to make people move into the cities that offered protection and abundance in food, in exchange of taxes, deity like admiration for the emperor and strengthening the power of the king.
The more you influence, the more powerful you become, shit, even Hamurabi made sure no one got richer than him by restricting the sale prices of oxes.
>btfo free market
>>8252060
Racism and Racial "science" was around before the 1910s you idiot.
>>8251949
vad menade han med denna bild?
>>8252067
It sure was, but it's retarded to call it white, because there was no such thing, until Americans started spamming that meme all around the world as if it carries any meaning at all.
Unlike the common progressivist meme that all white-skinned people are the same, they aren't, and at least a thousands years of bloodshed in Europe might've convinced people that already but apparently not.
>>8252058
I am not white, but i think this is a bad generalisation, its very comfortable to blame all the bad things in the world to one specific source. As we all hopefully know, the human interaction is much more complicated than that.
Let it not be a discussion about white supremacy, as we all know it will basically turn this thread into a symbiotic /pol/-aquarium.
But >>8252048 is on the right track. The practice of nationalism, whatever it is, is never wrong. It is never wrong to practice your culture, but to denounce others, and have it as a political banner, is to spit in the face of ancestors who created the culture.
We live in an open world, a world that millions have waged war for, been killed for and killed for. Let us cheerish it as long as we can, until we fall into the typical human slumber of jealousy and mob-mentality.
What nationalism and islam (Me being arab, this is always relevant lol) have in common is that they both are used to fuel political causes. IS doesn't bomb people for religion, it's for power and money.
Nationalism isn't promoted for right wings because of the nationalism or culture, it's because of populism. We want to belong to something, or atleast, those of us who aren't total edgelords.
>>8252074
Jag är upphovsmakaren.
>>8252042
Yes but the claim above said that it was caused by people thinking "white culture is better than other cultures". All the initial players were white.
>>8251986
Nationalists don't believe in cultural supremacy per se, but to deny that British culture, for example, is better than some sub-saharan culture that chops of clits you're kidding yourself.
Nationalism is about preserving an ethnic and cultural heritage. And no, nationalism isn't only for whitey.
>>8252151
i don't know what 'white culture' and 'black culture' are
>>8252165
but non-whites have civilizations
>>8252086
>>8252064
Read this >>8252165
>>8252163
Civilisation is a spook.
>>8251949
Spookiest shit in history.
>>8252175
actually non-whites had civilization before whites
>>8252178
Mesopotamians were white
Don't just tell me it's a spook, tell me why.
>all cultures are equal
>nationalism is a meme
What is this, low test hour?
>>8252185
they weren't, and neither were indians or chinese
>spook
Everything is a fucking spook nowadays.
I wish Stirner was never born.
What's wrong with the affirmation of spooks?
>>8252194
Cultures is the peoples expression, a combination of social evolution, art and enviromental factors.
Nationalism is a political ideology preying on the culture. It's a spook because it's an ideology, whilst culture is a practice
>>8252198
The ruling class of Indians were the most fair skinned
Chinese are just whites who've been staring at the Nippon flag for too long
>>8252205
They were also oppressive and backwards.
Funny that, white people being imbecilic oppressors. Never heard of that before...
>>8252203
Culture develops the ideology. Hence when those living in mud huts with no domesticated animals after tens of thousands of years do not have similar ideology.
i don't get how leftists can read the Western Canon and think ugh this is all so racist and WHITE, we need to replace it with sharia courts, 'twerking' and more reality TV shows about transsexuals. Remember, 'evil' White culture gave us Socrates, Alexander, Shakespeare, Newton, General Robert E Lee, Nietzsche, Darwin, Stirner an Orwell. How would they feel if they saw their descendants throw it all away out of a misplaced sense of guilt and self loathing? A sad thing indeed, alas.
>>8252233
If not being a racist idiot makes me a cuck, then I guess I'm a proud fucking cuckold
>>8252241
This is bait but at its core, true
>>8252226
I think you're wrong, basically. Ideology is a result of a strong person leading a sheeple of followers. The pressure of conforming is a strong instinct, and adhering to an ideoloy isn't being a sheep per ce, but nowadays ideology has basically become a meme and identity.
Also, if you find hapiness in living in mud, i'm jealous and see those without need of ideology in higher regard than the typical "muh philosphy" western nu-male. They've found happiness in mud, whilst we haven't found it even in the moon.
>>8252255
And the only option to capitalism is communism
kys
>>8252250
So if pressure to conform is an instinct who are we to just come out now and say "I am superior to all of my ancestors because I have over come a strong instinct to conform even though it's conforming to a cultures ideals which have worked for thousands of years"?
Being happy about living in mud does not make you morally superior to someone who doesn't, either. We find happiness in a combination of progress and maintaining our tradition.
>>8252285
Who said ancestors comformed? Conformation is stronger now than ever. Haven't you noticed how we all pretty much dress the same, look the same and are more than ever afraid to stick out?
>moral
Ayyyy sounds pretty spooky mate
>>8252304
You are talking well out of your ass my man.
>afraid
>not a 'spook'
>>8252304
Are you being sarcastic?
There's a diversity of fashion nowadays.
>>8251949
how long did it take to make that meme? kill yourself
mvh
"does any notable thinker prefer a country over another?"
"promote nationalism" lol
Civilization is a scam.
End it all 2016.
>>8252531
>Civilization is a scam.
i agree. civilization is a failed project.
Nationalism is a stupid thing to latch onto and only benefits those higher up in the nation to have a large group of idiots willing to do anything for the nation. It's like blind patriotism, and it's fucking stupid.
>>8252583
No the elite hates nationalism because its an obstacle to their neoliberal agenda
But shit who am i talking to? Has /lit/ gone full libtard or what?
>implying the global techno ai autistocracy wont be run be white men and jews
>implying these people wont seal themselves away in gated communities
you're right, who's going to care about nation states when all we'll wish for in the future is a company-sanctioned apartment and free parking space
>>8252629
Haha, good one.
>>8252673
You know what's also fun? Actually reading about it before having an opinion on something, fagget.
>>8252151
What determines their value? Progression? I'd really like to know what you measure their worth on.
Isn't Mein Kampf supposed to be about this? (Idk really, I haven't read it)
In any case, I don't know if I consider myself a nationalist, but definitely a patriot. Pride in one is a very egoist thought I think, I prefer having communitarian pride, like when I watch a soccer match and my country wins I feel really proud of my people.
>Somalia and Norway are equal
Did someone mention Plato already? He kind of promotes nationalism, belief that the state gave him everything in his life and so he is in debt to it
OP check out: Miley - In Defence of Nationality
He argues for the need of nations inside the Rawlsian framework of distributive justice.
>>8252790
>hurr durr I'm from this country
>I'm the best, therefore my country is the best, res extensa
Nationalism seems pretty egoistic to me.
This is really the worst thread in hisotry of /lit/
>>8252015
sounds gay
>>8252816
egoistic as a community, not as an indiviudal
>>8252163
>argumentum ad ignorantiam
Fuck off lad
>>8252244
HE ADMITTED IT
>>8252816
> Buying into the globalist propaganda that nationalism = war mongering when most of the wars in the last century were because of imperalism.
>>8253023
>not realizing both Nationalism and cosmopolitan capitalism are tools of the bourgeoisie
>>8252790
National pride is an artificial substitute for the organic communitarian feeling lost with the arrival of modernity.
>>8252049
came here to say Heidegger.
>>8252802
But think about it this way; Why does the state provide school, nursing, healthcare and so on.
A favour is a favour if you have choice. Now, basically all ways of life are monopolized by modern society.
For christ sake, you can't even settle down anywhere you want legally!
In animal farms, they also tend and train their cows. Why, is it because they care for the cow? Or because it will produce more milk?
>>8253035
> thinks he knows everything because he has read the communist manifesto.
I misread that as "naturism"
That picture is ridiculous. What's wrong with SvD?
It was just made to target as many people as possible, it's not even coherent in the slightest.
>>8251949
We live in an age when nationalism becomes popular because many are scared of globalism.
However, this will be just a short phase. The future is a world without governments, i.e., without countries.
>>8253311
Just one big government with no other governments opposing or checking it.
>>8251949
Being a nationalist is like being a jew during persecution.
Be subtle!
>>8252015
>Imagine a world that is United, a world of love and cooperation. A world where the past can be forgotten, and the future cherished.
And then what?
You've destroyed diversity.
You make the human race one giant mishmash of uniform people with uniform thinking.
>pre-ww2
>leftists and rightists are mostly evenly matched ideologically
>both exist mostly outside the state
>the state itself is bourgeois capitalist status quo-ism
>leftist and rightist totalitarianisms start cropping up in europe
>bourgeois capitalist world unites to smush them both
>ww2 ends
>bourgeois capitalists colonise and consume the leftist ideologues into academia, while banning right wing ideology altogether
>"actual left wing critique of capitalism" becomes The Great Bourgeois Capitalist Combined Industry-plex of Academic Academia (now with Leftism flavour!)
>98% of people who devote themselves to an ascetic quest to understand foucaulkeimer and free the plebs are actually devoting themselves to a hypercommodotised scholarship factory where their entire lives depend on profitability reviews and careful vetting by a government-funded intelligentsia pyramid of establishment correctthinkers
>the other 2% don't receive academic accreditation from the aforementioned 98%, lack access to the scholarly training and rigour that would make their critiques meaningful, are ostracized to forums like revleft to argue about tranny penis schizophrenia utopias with teenagers for all time
>leftism now the faithful worker-bitch of globalist postcapitalism, its one-time archenemy
>right wingers doing almost as badly as the leftist 2%'ers, but not quite because at least they aren't constantly having their rare luminaries siphoned off into a traitorous 98%
>ideological ostracism from establishment leftists further galvanises them
>this process dialectically creates a new synthesis appropriate to the exigencies of the spiritual age: distributed networks of meme-spewing retards with globalism-resistant private languages
>most significant critiques of globalism now come from right wing
>the establishment leftists are kept so well-fed and comfortable on their six figure salaries, and are so shot-through with bourgeois correctthinkers (who don't even know they're bourgeois and actually think they're hardcore marxo-freudo-schizo-criticalists), that they instinctively side with fucking globalism AGAINST a critique of globalism
>an army of clueless brown and female Outer Party slaves cheers for globalism on social networks memetically manipulated by post-post-post-bernaysian thinktanks
This is the most confusing crucible in human history.
Imagine someone writing a fucking history of this era 300 years from now. We can't even figure out the French Revolution, and future historians will have to understand post-ironic frogs, revolutionary thought collectives forming out of sheer boredom and the lack of good VR anime porn, and neo-fascists who can't really decide whether they're really fascists or just enjoy roleplaying as one on the Internet.
>>8253326
I imagine a world controlled by companies, interest groups, and you choose to whom you want to belong.
Maybe self-governance of small entities (e.g. cities) for the less important things.
>>8253344
A democratic state-free confederal system would definitely be better for human freedom and cultural flourishing than our current state-based capitalist system.
>>8253349
This kind of makes me glad to be alive in our era. Might as well enjoy this crazy ride while we're stuck on it, right?
>>8251949
just read Ami: Child of the Stars
>>8253375
I think we're about two decades away from outright techno-dystopia, personally. Some seriously terrifying shit is about to happen.
>>8253349
>an army of clueless brown and female Outer Party slaves cheers for globalism on social networks memetically manipulated by post-post-post-bernaysian thinktanks
This doesn't happen. Nobody outside the US likes globalism and just want the US to fuck off already.
>>8253407
Tell that to Pakis-- I mean, Londoners.
>>8253407
Also the neoliberal order is under attack from the far left as well as from the right.
>>8252015
I'd rather the world burn
>>8252261
Nah
>laissez-faire economics
>compatible with nationalism
How can anyone be this genuinely retarded?
>>8252015
the mechanics of globalism have failed us though. everything you have said is nice and all but the free travel of workers and corporations have created an ever intensifying cycles of booms and busts
>>8252015
>nation=race
>>8254630
>the mechanics of globalism have failed us though
Only because people are desperately grasping onto tribalism
There's also no literal going back. The internet guarantees globalism
>>8254641
>people are desperately grasping onto tribalism
Where? You're just imagining a beneficial enemy to reason the flaws of your system.
>>There's also no literal going back
>implying history is linear
>>8254665
Related
>>8251949
kek i bought pihkal when i was 16 and never even unwrapped it
I wanted to learn how to make drugs cause I was edgy
>>8253389
white people will be fine
>>8254641
i'm not arguing against the idea of globalism. i'm arguing against it's actuality and that is that it has failed us. people are grasping onto tribalism bc of this failure. you think if the markets were doing well we would care how many pakis or mexicans come over? no, we wouldn't. jesus christ man, neoliberal globalism is a walking zombie. it looks to be approaching a violent, violent, death though
