Did Hamlet even want to be king?
no, he just missed his dad
>>8246584
As naive as this sounds, I think this is correct
I don't really think there's enough evidence in the text to give the argument much credence. Sure, we're all aware that he'd inherit, but he'd inherit anyway if he let Claudius live.
I imagine his overriding desire was to simply play a part in the unfolding drama. Remember the play is the thing.
The plot for revenge required the manifestation of his fathers ghost to convince hamlet. Recall he was raised by the jester till the age of 7. I doubt the implied Oedipus complex played a major role in the murders either.
>>8247345
>I imagine his overriding desire was to simply play a part in the unfolding drama.
Huh?
>>8246609
But also according to the play, after his father's death he's fairly grief-stricken, even before he learns of Claudius' role therein. So we already know that he was sad about his dad's death, and therefore probably missed him.
Personally I don't believe that hamlet considered killing himself, but rather used suicide as a metaphor for taking action vs not taking action-- the dilemma that he was facing at the time.
something something oedipus complex
>>8248740
>Personally I don't believe that hamlet considered killing himself, but rather used suicide as a metaphor for taking action vs not taking action-- the dilemma that he was facing at the time.
Oh shit, you're right. That makes a lot more sense. Why has no one else it interpreted the scene that way?
I watched this shitty video on Hamlet last night, "Thug Notes", and he presented a different interpretation of the soliloquy too, but I forget what it was.
>>8248762
>Oh shit, you're right. That makes a lot more sense. Why has no one else it interpreted the scene that way?
Can't tell if serious or sarcasm
>>8248758
I really don't get this angle. Hamlet being pissed at his mom is pretty appropriate regarding the circumstances, she's acting like a whore, doesn't mean he wants to fuck her.
Hamlet is probably as misogynistic as most modern males and didn't even think about that him and his mom would lose their status if she didn't marry Claudius.
>>8248765
I'm serious, I don't read much into this sort of shit.I'm not even a regular here.
I've never seen the scene adapted that way.
>>8248769
Hamlet being annoyed at his mother for marrying Claudius and betraying his father is a conscious motive. The Oedipal complex functions on unconscious motives.
>>8248762
>>8248773
>Why has no one else it interpreted the scene that way?
They have. Another somewhat common presentation of that scene is as a lure for Polonius and Claudius--as in Tennant's Hamlet, in the OP image.
The tension between representation, the performance of feeling, and actual psychic pain is a running motif in Hamlet. c.f. Laertes histrionic display of grief at Ophelia's to Gertrude's retelling of her death etc.
>>8248820
Right. Exactly.
>>8248831
>Another somewhat common presentation of that scene is as a lure for Polonius and Claudius
I'm sorry, I have no idea what that means.
>The tension between representation, the performance of feeling, and actual psychic pain
Or that either.
>>8248840
Have you seen or read the play?
>>8248879
I'm going to be honest, only a really long time ago. We read it in class and then saw a performance at Lincoln Theatre.
>>8248683
Meaning hamlet's impulse to perform as an actor was greater than his desire for revenge.
>>8248967
Vice versa on impulse/desire... I'm drunk and a retard
ITT: Homework
>>8248967
Or maybe part of his hesitation stems from his doubt that the act of revenge would be anything but a performance.
>>8248997
But if the play is the thing why would he hesitate to perform his final act?
>>8248967
Hamlet's not an actor, he's a prince.
>>8248997
Or maybe he was trying to figure out if killing Claudius would be worth it/actually change anything. Would he get away with it? Is it the moral thing to do, to stoop as low as the sinner he condemns? Does he actually care to avenge his father, a man he hardly knew outside of stories of the battlefield?
>>8249071
He didn't mean him being a literal actor. He was referring to Hamlet's melodramatic personality.
I don't believe hamlet cared about whether he would get away with it nor whether it was moral or not. His grief and his desire to be kept in the drama of the situation spurred his actions.
>>8249049
Because it is part of his character; it is part of the play.
>>8248967
It's a 16th century play, not a postmodern novel.
>>8249071
Hamlet IS an actor. He is acting for the court in order to expose Claudius. But through that act there is revealed the ambivalence of authenticity and performance.
>>8249160
Hamlet may not be aware that his is actually in a play, but he is very conscious that he is 'in a play'.
>>8248769
>most modern males are misoginistic
Just drop the Silent Spring already
>>8249186
You're right, all males are misogynistic.
Wouldn't you be pissed? His father recently deceased, finding out your beloved mom is a filthy whore banging that dcikhead uncle of yours..(Ghost reveals of adultery & murder, maybe she had a hand in fathers death?) and you want the kingdom for yourself as the rightful air so you have to stick around for this shit?? Hamlet is in turmoil, and i discount the oedipus complex - oedipus killed his own father & married his mother, unknowingly, still don't see how this correlates.. just some perverted scholars wishful thinking..
*heir -- yeah he wants to be king, but his immediate family has turned to shit.. so burn it all down
>>8249215
An Oedipus complex refers to hatred of the father for possessing the mother, due to latent sexual feelings for her.
Given that Claudius has wrongfully assumed that role, I don't think it's much of a stretch to make such an interpretation.
I don't agree with Freud as much as the next guy, but he's definitely fun to use a tool when analyzing literature.
>>8249201
That's like saying all people are bad. It means nothing. Incidentally its also like the expectation that if you go up to some random person and ask them if they are a good person, provided they are so inclined to answer they will say yes. Shouldn't this quality of "goodness" be measured against some standard. Shouldn't it be something reserved for the top 10% of humanity? What I'm trying to say anon, is you are a bad personand so am Iso your sanctimony is worth less than a packet of potato-meal.
>>8249215
Your post has nothing to do with the OP question. And Hamlet couldn't have just went back to school and wait it all out? Claudius is old as fuck, and the life expectancy back then wasn't high.
If Hamlet went away for a few years, finishing his studies and fucking Ophelia in the ass, Claudius would've probably died naturally soon enough.
And there's also Fortinbras. If Hamlet waited a week or two Fortinbras would've shanked Claudius for him. Claudius isn't a warrior like Hamlet Sr. was.
>>8249160
You're not getting what I'm saying -- Hamlet's proclivities lean towards performance and not revenge. His soliloquies point towards his ambivalence towards justice, right/wrong. He has little in common with his father, uncle or mother to justify their murders on moral or reciprocal grounds.
Instead he recognized his actor playwright role in the unfolding drama and led us as the audience to its final bloody conclusion. A changeling if you will.
>>8249257
its copypasta idiot
>>8249257
hamlet is like 30
>>8246575
He was fat and short of breath (dit Gertrude) and an asshole to each other character, not to mention the clouds of bad breath that were hanging around him (dit King). He has been a neckbeard. That, if anything, has been his fatal flaw.
>>8249269
>am saying one of the central themes of the play is the uneasy identification of image and actuality, performance of feeling and feeling itself.
nope not getting anything
>>8249272
sauce?
The actors that play tend be in their 80s since you are not allowed to play without having renown. And they never are fat because fat actors are for character roles. All that belongs to the conventions of post-Elizabeth.
Hamlet is young, Laertes implies he's even younger than Ophelia when lecturing her.
>>8249272
A student at thirty? Shakes didn't care much for accuracy there...
>>8249264
>>8249160
This is good, yes.
Consider Hamlet's final soliloquy, the final thoughts he shares directly with the audience: http://shakespeare.mit.edu/hamlet/hamlet.4.4.html
>The imminent death of twenty thousand men,
>That, for a fantasy and trick of fame,
>Go to their graves like beds, fight for a plot
>Whereon the numbers cannot try the cause,
The course is set, and Hamlet knows this. His final resolution is not a really a choice beyond that to play the part he recognizes he's been given.
>>8249286
Seriously?
>The play is the thing.
There's the key right there.
>>8249296
Polonius does have a pretty premonition, too, in the theatre scene.
>>8249302
nope
>>8246584
He doesn't miss Claudius, tho.
Or Laertes.
>>8249318
Great. It's been nice chatting with you about this play we are both so deeply interested in. Have a good day.
would you have drunk some vinegar or eaten a crocodile, /lit/, if your waifu had died in se offendendo?
>>8248979
nay, lit is of a truant persuasion.
it's annoying when the first post is the correct answer >>8246584
>>8249290
the grave digger provides explicit textual evidence. also yorick has been dead for 23 years.
>>8249345
dont get me wrong theres a lot of debate around it but so far consensus has found it very difficult to argue for 16 over 30.
>>8249345
The way I remember it GD just says Hamlet sailed off to England and avoids to opine on the late king's son. But you're on Yorick. And I'm on that Laertes does point out to his virgin sister that Hamlet is young. What's more Ham shames his own mother for being voluptuous in spite of her age.
Is it just me, or does Hamlet have a bit of comedy dashed in it? Certain scenes with Hamlet and Ophelia, and the scenes with Osric, struck me as attempting to get a laugh out of the audience. Am I just misinterpreting the tone?
>>8249380
just Google hamlets age this. entire books have been written on this. it's hard to argue for 16
>>8249380
I think it would be safe to assume Hamlet is somewhere in his early twenties.
Plus, if Hamlet was thirty, he'd probably been picked for the throne over his uncle, unless shenanigans.
>>8249390
To me it seemed the talk with Osric on the weather was an echoed him talking to Polonius about the clouds. Wasn't it done to mark him as an asshole (just him being lecherous towards Ophelia) so that we don't feel sorry when he's killed?
>>8249395
>just Google
alright, let us both google Hamlet act V scene 1
>>8249398
Wrong about what?
>>8249443
He's early twenties in my headcanon :^)
>>8249455
not even close to the worst thing I've seen on /lit/ so whatever.
>>8249468
Sorry, next time I'll meme harder to meet your tall expectations, faggot.
>>8249479
>He is in his 20s. The first quarto edition does not contain the clown saying anything about his age. Shakes will've included it later, as the company aged.
would be convincing if not for the fact that he also edited the player king to have been married 30 years in q2. he deliberately made the change to focus on drawing parallels, and went through the extra hassle to pin down hamlet's age without a doubt. it's ridiculous to ignore this.
Ophelia drowned but why? When I was reading Hamlet, it seemed unclear to me whether it was suicide or if it was an act of murder.
>>8251893
suicide, she was distraught by Hamlet ignoring her
/lit/, I'm a curious pleb and I'd love some insight.
I read Hamlet and found it compelling. Great verbal textures, stylism, etc.
But what makes it so transcendently good that it's often held to be the greatest work in English literature?
With a Beethoven symphony or late string quartet, for example, you can get lost in contemplating the pure inexorability of each note, and how there isn't a single thing that could be changed to make it better or more effective. You wonder how he could achieve such perfect effects at such perfect times. Is there a similar thing with Hamlet?
>>8252047
yes
read more
>>8252050
>yes
That's kind of what I assumed. What is the similar thing, if you don't mind my asking?
>>8246575
>>8246575
Hamlet did not give the slightest fuck about being a king.
>>8246584
He didn't give a fuck about his dad either. He was a neglected child; the closest thing he has to a father is a dead jester.
>>8249160
It's the pinnacle of western theater, and Hamlet is the most (or second or third most) dynamic and complex character ever concieved.
>>8248758
Check out Bloom's chapter on Freud in the Western Canon. He argues (convincingly) that Freud's Oedipus Complex was actually derived from Hamlet, not Oedipus.
Yes, of course, or else why did was there a song in The Lion King called "I Just Can't Wait to Be King"?
>>8252634
The Lion King isn't a straight adaptation, it has a lot of changes that improve the story like:
>Simba is actually close to his father
>We know for sure that Simba actually wants to be king
>Simba sees the murder as a child, and returns to kill his uncle as a grown man
>>8252623
So what was the motive?
>>8252623
>Hamlet is the most (or second or third most) dynamic and complex character ever concieved.
>>8252760
motive for what?
It's hard to account for anything Hamlet does. He won't kill Claudius but he stabs Plotinus without a split second of hesitation. He outwits everybody he encounters (except the gravedigger) but somehow walks right into Claudius's absurd trap (surely he knew exactly what he was in for).
>>8252770
(In the opinion of Harold Bloom. I haven't read anywhere close to enough of anything to say one way or another. But Hamlet is certainly not some rigid Elizabethan trope for whom serious analysis is inappropriate. Critics revere the play, as well as writers.)
>>8252774
Didn't he think Polonius was Claudius?
>>8252785
Hard to say, but perhaps. It's not hard to imagine he would suspect Polonius doing Claudius's dirty work, that there was someone listening from the get go. It seems like the momentary rage of his conversation with Gertrude causes him to kill, not revenge against Claudius or Polonius. He displays no regret whatsoever for having killed Polonius, we might expect him to act a tad surprised or regretful having missed his mark, but I don't think the mark mattered to him so much as getting a shot off.
Hamlet's ENTIRE spiel is to avoid taking responsibility. Dad is dad ... crap ... if I kill Claudius I might have to take responsibility, even though I am a middle aged man still in school. How could you, mom? It was YOU AND ME. He is happy to kill everyone and get himself killed, giving the kingdom away to Fortinbras, the very man whose father Hamlet senior fought so hard against to keep his kingdom. Hamlet is an eternal child afraid of growing up - if he kills Claudius, he will have to admit he is a man. The proto-millenial.
>>8252812
he is only capable of striking out in childish anger when his relationship with mother is directly profaned. Once mom is dead, good-bye Claudius and everyone else in his way. Can't suckle at the teat any longer.
reminder hamlet was a cuck and the son of a cuck
Hamlet's father was an old Catholic who did not receive extreme unction and lingers as a ghost, suffering the purging of purgatory. Hamlet is a protestant humanist educated at wittenberg. His father was an old warrior, he is a young thinker, but he has been tasked with fighting instead of thinking, and he sucks at it. He will rationalize anything to avoid taking action, even when he has Claudius at his mercy, because it would mean growing up and being his father rather than being who he is. He is resentful but does not actively seek revenge, or he could have had it after the play, only pretending when the guilt was clear that remorse could stop his hand, when from the very first he KNEW Claudius was guilty : "My prophetic soul..." I know ... let's stage a play and act crazy until Claudius notices and sends us away ...
>>8252830
>Hamlet is an eternal child afraid of growing up - if he kills Claudius, he will have to admit he is a man.
>>8252842
How was Hamlet a cuck
I was trying to read critical approaches of Hamlet and instead ended up looking up incest porn. Anyone else have this problem?
>>8249396
He's mid-late 20s.
>>8254467
still wrong
its like you people never read the play
>>8254444
can't you multitask?
>>8254522
>
Nope.
>>8254467
>I have been sexton here, man and boy, thirty years.
>>8255790
Yes, it is.
>>8255902
Where, exactly?
>>8255921
>>8255921
>I have been sexton here, man and boy, thirty years.
if you think this is "indirectly indicated" you should work on your reading skills.
>>8255939
HAMLET
How absolute the knave is! we must speak by the
card, or equivocation will undo us. By the Lord,
Horatio, these three years I have taken a note of
it; the age is grown so picked that the toe of the
peasant comes so near the heel of the courtier, he
gaffs his kibe. How long hast thou been a
grave-maker?
First Clown
Of all the days i' the year, I came to't that day
that our last king Hamlet overcame Fortinbras.
HAMLET
How long is that since?
First Clown
Cannot you tell that? every fool can tell that: it
was the very day that young Hamlet was born; he that
is mad, and sent into England.
HAMLET
Ay, marry, why was he sent into England?
First Clown
Why, because he was mad: he shall recover his wits
there; or, if he do not, it's no great matter there.
HAMLET
Why?
First Clown
'Twill, a not be seen in him there; there the men
are as mad as he.
HAMLET
How came he mad?
First Clown
Very strangely, they say.
HAMLET
How strangely?
First Clown
Faith, e'en with losing his wits.
HAMLET
Upon what ground?
First Clown
Why, here in Denmark: I have been sexton here, man
and boy, thirty years
>>8246575
Did they have parkas and beanies in medieval Denmark?
>>8256079
It's from the BBC version set in the contemporary times. Recommended, one of the best iterations of modern Shakespeare out there.
>>8256548
It's garbage. Tennant is the worst Hamlet I've seen in any version of the play. The whole thing is full of idiotic stylistic choices, it's unwatchability makes me appreciate middle-of-the-road adaptations like Zeffirelli's so much more.
Richard Burton in 64 is still the best Hamlet filmed
>>8256592
It's not garbage. You're just pretentious about adaptations that not maintain the classical ambience.
>>8256600
Burton's was modern dress as well. I don't care about that shit at all, the issue with the Tennant Hamlet is the terrible central performance and a directorial style that manages to be both totally bland and pointlessly off-putting
>>8256600
Not that anon, but I agree with him.
>weird-ass garbage with the security cameras
>serious over-acting on Tennant's part
>strange, unnatural stage presences that seem too aware of their own drama (look at Tennant again, and fucking Ophelia)
A lot of stuff is overstated. Gesticulations in the grave-yard scene (unnatural timing, overreactions, etc.) that just don't mesh with how real humans behave specifically come to mind.
And I think the decision to have Hamlet deal Claudius the most glancing blow possible, and then simply induce him to kill himself with the chalice, ruins the scene. But I suppose that's more subjective. The rest I'd stand by.
>>8256548
The Tennant version was set in contemporary times? Why didn't they update the language?
>>8251893
she fell in by accident
>>8257064
Accidentally on purpose
>>8256640
>updating Shakespearean language
imagine the riots
So I hope we can all agree that Brannagh's 1996 Hamlet is the best film adapation, even better than Laurence Oliviers.
>>8258328
No, Mel Gibson's is the best.
Brannaugh comes off as full of himself in all his productions, which detracts heavily from this (except for Much Ado, where it actually enhances it since he plays a narcissistic character).
>>8249390
every scene where Hamlet uses sarcasm was in part to get a laugh from the audience
>>8258027
Who really gives a fuck
>>8259078
>>8256640
How do you 'update' modern English?
>>8259431
>modern English
shut the fuck up
>>8259458
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_English
>Modern English (sometimes New English or NE[2] as opposed to Middle English and Old English) is the form of the English language spoken since the Great Vowel Shift in England, which began in the late 14th century and was completed in roughly 1550.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuN6gs0AJls
>>8259487
you know what the fuck we meant you fucking autist
bumo
>>8262634
Why, you scum?
>>8263911
I'm not sure yet.
>>8261101
Clearly not. Maybe you should articulate yourself better in the future.
>>8264019
You're not cool and you're not better than anybody.
You're just an annoying nerd.
RELEVANT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smMa38CZCSU
Even if Hamlet doesn't want to be king, he does love to throw his royal weight around, as he repeatedly does to put Rosencrantz & Guildenstern in their places.
That said, I do think Hamlet is afraid of wielding real authority. He's afraid of action, period, which is why he's so wishy-washy.
>>8264419
>He's afraid of action, period,
He was pretty quick to kill Polonious.
>>8264436
Hamlet is also extraordinarily emotional, so you could say he gets swept up in the heat of his passions.
>>8264439
Indecisive, overly-emotional,
Hamlet is starting to sound a lot like me.
I'm re-reading the play now, and why the fuck is Hamlet so depressed?
It's not because his father is dead, and I don't think it has anything to do with Claudius or Gertrude either.
He's rich, privileged, and has a beautiful young woman under his influence. What does he have to be so sad about?
Yes, Hamlet wanted to be king. Please lock now.
>>8264397
You got my number man, damn.
>>8264504
You're beginning to sound like faggot.
>>8265011
Hamlet's not a faggot.
>>8264963
Look at the catcher in the rye
>>8265044
>I gotta read a whole other book to figure out more about a character in an unrelated work
