is this the best version of the hadiths?
>>8197881
Yes. Sahih Bukhari is goat, but it is not a version inasmuch as a collection of Ahaadiith.
>>8197909
yea that
>>8197881
Unless you are reading them to BTFO Muslims into becoming Quranists and/or full-time-sufi, I'll be mad.
>>8197959
>BTFO Muslims into becoming Quranists
what do you mean by this?
>>8197965
That for Islam to overcome its current crisis and deal with the underlying issues which enabled it, it probably ought to stop taking the Hadith so seriously and start over with a little more distance.
>>8197983
tell me what you know
>>8197993
Hadiths are "reported claims" that were collected more than a hundred years after the death of the Prophet. That's how reliable it is. Yet, it's regarded as a valid authority for a billion of muslims. It contradicts the Qur'an and is solely based on superstitions.
>>8197881
> sunni hadiths
Shia hadiths or no hadiths at all.
>>8199389
>Shia
Persian GF is best GF
>>8197881
What's the appeal of Islam that cannot be found in other religions? Most of the "good stuff" I've heard about it was literal copies of Judaism and other traditions.
>>8199520
Islam seems like a more aesthetic, slightly easier version of Judaism.
The kosher laws are easier to keep in Islam, the morality and theology are similar and they manage to come to accept Jesus without caring about him that much.
>>8199520
>Most of the "good stuff" I've heard about it was literal copies of Judaism and other traditions.
Islam is a plagiarism of the worst parts of Judaism and Christianity
The only redeeming quality of Islam is that its adherents (Muslims) mostly don't take it too seriously. Those that do are toxic to civilisation.
>>8199567
> that whole infograph
All this tells me is that the Shias are right.
>>8199621
>expert on statistical analysis
wew lad
Of 1.6 billion muslims, a random sample of 1000 can produce results with as little as a 4% margin of error.
The sample sizes here are primarily for representative populations (i.e. ntion states) far smaller, and with far larger sample sizes, reducing the already small margin of error.
>But every Muslim I know disagrees
And my great grandfather smoked every day of his life and lived to be 106. Does that nullify statistical data linking smoking with decreased lifespan?
>>8199649
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias_(statistics)
>>8199609
what do the shias say?
>>8199621
I know that the Quran mentions Isa more than Mohammed but Isa really is superseded by Mohamed, is he not?
>>8201321
No, Mohamed is just here to remind everyone what Isa's true message was and give more details about the right way of life (which is literaly the "deen" in arabic). They're seen as equally important.
>>8201394
No Muslim gets mad when Jesus is drawn.
>>8201425
You're either lying or you've had an encounter with some idiots. Your experience isn't valid to draw a generalizing conclusion.
>>8201471
is it true the translation by pickthall is goat?
>>8199549
>Islam
>easy
Bruh, covering the entirety of Muslim thought is like saying you want to cover all of Christian thought.
You think it won't be that bad until you realize you are talking about 1-2 millenia of theological and political history, which almost all is in some way relevant.
At least the Jews hadn't had the chance to do anything but mysticism and some existentialism until recently.
>>8201705
"Muslim thought" may not be easy, but we're not talking about thought. We're talking about the religion itself.
And practicing Islam is actually Judaism in "very easy" mode.
>one book to know
>that's it, you've got the basis for everything in your life + all the prayers lol
>you can't fail, just follow the book cuz it comes straight from Allah & you'll go to Heaven and stuff!!!
"Religion is easy", as a hadith said.
>>8202155
>one book to know
Islam as it stands and as it stood canno function with just the Quran, this is an Islamic myth, The fundamental structure of many of the most basic practices of the religion, down to prayer, are not expressed adequately in the Quran. You absolutely need Hadith or as most all people do it someone to tell you Hadith to have any hope of taking the religion seriously whatsoever. Bonus points if you actually want any understanding of Muhammad so you can emulate him like you're supposed to in Islam. The Quran is way too small and non specific for all of it, not just practice but laws and Islamic government and succession and EVERYTHING related to the religion. How would you even understand what the Quran is saying without the historical context of the events provided in Hadith?
The Quran does not stand on it's own, only a hypocritical muslim would argue it has any chance too. Even if it was just 100% declarations and explanations the size of the text is far too small for this purpose.
>>8202155
>one book to know
Fucking kek.
This entire thread exists because Muslims barely even read the Quran anymore. Have you ever read or listened to someone talking about the Quran? For every Quran quote, there are fucking 15 Hadith/Sunnah quotes and then some.
Not to mention the extremely vast field of different political/judicial factors, that all play a major role in how the Quran is interpreted.
And then you didn't even get into Sufism.
What you are talking about is Quranism. And that shit never took off.
>>8197881
Ugh, coupled with this big tome 'ight 'ere and this thread brings back some bad memories to when I was still a staunch salafi'ist.
>>8202823
>muh prayers is only found in the hadiths meme
Everything is stated in the Qur'an. You're not supposed to emulate Muhammed, you're supposed to follow what's written in the Qur'an because it's the last and only valid source to live the right way of life.
Wanna emulate Muhammad as he's described in the Hadiths? Try fucking a 9 year old girl. Advocate for unnecessary violence or disproportionate punishments.
>>8203192
>What you are talking about is Quranism. And that shit never took off.
>"that shit"
Nice disrespect for a religious conception that follows God's words only.
What if the Hadiths were used by several political instances in order to implement superstition and erase any critcal thought whatsoever? What if the pleb was illiterate and was prevented to understand to poetical style of the Qur'an so they had to use oversimplifications, false commandments and shitty interpretations disguised as "reported claims".
>>8204612
>Nice disrespect for a religious conception that follows God's words only.
You got me wrong. I'm of the opinion that the Hadith should only be read for historical and political understanding, while any self-respecting Muslim ought to exclusively read the Quran and perhaps some more Sufi literature/art.
The current reactionism throughout the majority Muslim world is proof that Muslim scholars have poisoned the wells with the Hadith and pretend their hate and prejudice is, by proxy, holy and justified.
Furthermore this BS about practically elevating Muhammed to the station of a Massiah has to stop.
>>8203192
>Muslims barely even read the Quran anymore
Very untrue, have you not heard of a qari'? Have you not stood behind the imam in tarawih? Have you not tuned into Quraan Radio FM or stood ahead of your class reciting one third of a surah - hopefully flawlessly, unless you want ten strokes of a silicon rod on the back of your palm. Then there's alone the joy of reading it, because let's face it, if you have that good a voice or a surprising attentiveness to the depth of the work then chances are you'll be crying a river in tajwid - unless you are following the imam, and chances are, as well, that he is moodily in it.
>>8204631
Hadith should only be read for historical and political understanding
Nice meme, simply because there is a sahih sanad for every - if not most - of Bukhari's and Muslim's Hadiths (see Al-Albani for more on that point) cannot veritably mean it came from Muhammad's mouth, because in the end it must by virtue of its own being reduce to what it essentially is: hearsay. But yes, it's the best tool we have at understanding what was going on in those crucial days.
>>8204237
whats that big tome
>>8204710
Read the filename.
>>8204670
>chances are you'll be crying a river in tajwid
Not even Muslim, friend.
And what I mean by "haven't read" is that most Muslims either recite it because it is expected of them or they do it to polish their ego.
I know Muslims who take their Quran seriously. They shed tears in recital and then ask their (non-Muslim) neighbors to join them and their family for dinner.
>But yes, it's the best tool we have at understanding what was going on in those crucial days.
The only point I am making. I agree that there is little to back up the Hadith and the way they are handled by many scholars and imam (if not most imam) is, by definition, heresy.
Yet I feel it is important for the Muslim community (especially Quranists) to know about what the various traditions believe and why. To understand the core of the issue, which let the things happen that are happening today. And then actually engaging with them, instead of the constant "no-true-Muslim" deflection many are prone to do.
>>8204722
idk what sahih muslim means thats why i asked
>>8204728
>Do it to polish their ego.
The sort of people you can make out in a crowd, plus it is horribly frowned upon.
And I'm agreeing with you. If you have ever been to the Middle East you will notice conservatives - who comprise the majority of outspoken commentators - who always toy with the no-true-Muslim fallacy. Progressive media prefers silence on the matter for fear of backlash. I do agree, and time will come high when a serious religio-political revision will see the light of day, the question remains when.
I do, however, seriously doubt that people will take the Quraanist route, as Hadiths are inviolably an integral part of [Quraanic and Shariah] exegesis in Islam.
>>8204773
Many use that fallacy. I literally has Muslims tell me the attacks in Paris have to be a conspiracy, because a Muslim would not kill for Islam.
That or the old "That isn't Islam! It has nothing to do with Islam!". It does. And everyone has been ignoring the problem for too long, including the Muslim communities.
The Marrakesh Declaration had me in high hopes for almost a minute... The I remembered how political leaders actually operate and how serious scholars are largely ignored by them.
But yeah, I guess the changes will be more similar to what happened in Europe. Secularism, which leads to a more calm, collected and more personal way of living ones religion.
And here and there we can see that taking root and the Arab (and Persian) people remembering what it all was like prior to all the destabalization and reactionism.
