Yevgeny Zamyatin's "We" is by far one of the most influential Sci-Fi novels ever.
However, it doesn't even rank on the Top 100 of goodreads' "Best Science Fiction" list.
My friend says that the list is flawed and exclusionary due to the fact that 98 of the 100 novels are English (#54 "Solaris" is Polish, and #61 "Journey to the Center of the Earth" is French) so obviously Russia's "We" would not be on the list.
I feel that, sadly, "Brave New World" and "1984" just stole the spotlight, and as a consequence "We" barely even gets printed.
Thoughts on "We", and thoughts on the Goodreads list?
Bonus Points: Upvote "We" into the Topp 100!!!!
>>8153244
If you love him so much you could at least get the author's name right. His name was Eugene desu.
>>8153244
Of the three big dystopias, I'm gonna read that one.
For those unfamiliar with "We", it was basically stolen to make "1984", "Brave New World, and especially "Anthem".:
There are similarities between Anthem and the 1921 novel, We by Yevgeny Zamyatin, another author who had lived in communist Russia. These include:
A novel taking the form of a secret diary or journal.
People are identified by codes instead of names.
Children separated from their parents and brought up by the State.
Individualism disposed of in favor of collective will.
A male protagonist who discovers individuality through his relationship with a female character.
A forest as a 'free' place outside the dystopian city.
The protagonist discovers a link to the past, when people were free, in a tunnel under the Earth.
>>8153244
>Complain about list
>Don't post link
???
On January 4th 1946, George Orwell reviewed Yevgeny Zamyatin's "We" for the Tribune Newspaper.
Paraphrasing Rayner Heppenstall, he reportedly said "that he was taking it as the model for his next novel."
Three years later, Orwell published 1984.
>>8153283
If it weren't for Crichton, Meyer, Ready Memer One, and World War Zed that's be a decent list desu. Think /lit/ can muster 39 votes to kick Timeline off the #100 spot?
George Orwell believed that Brave New World must have been partly derived from the novel We by Yevgeny Zamyatin.
However, in a 1962 letter, Huxley says that he wrote Brave New World long before he had heard of We.
According to We translator Natasha Randall, Orwell believed that Huxley was lying.
All the buildings in "We" are clear glass, allowing no privacy. This was based off of Jeremy Bentham's ideas:
The Panopticon is a type of institutional building designed by the English philosopher and social theorist Jeremy Bentham in the late 18th century. The concept of the design is to allow all (pan-) inmates of an institution to be observed (-opticon) by a single watchman without the inmates being able to tell whether or not they are being watched. Although it is physically impossible for the single watchman to observe all cells at once, the fact that the inmates cannot know when they are being watched means that all inmates must act as though they are watched at all times, effectively controlling their own behaviour constantly. The name is also a reference to Panoptes from Greek mythology; he was a giant with a hundred eyes and thus was known to be a very effective watchman.
I wouldn't get too worked up over a goodreads list. A significant number of the books therein don't belong anywhere near a selection of top 100 SciFi.
>>8153311
>>8153311
>>8153311
For sure, but it is a bit shocking that the direct inspirations for the #4 and #7 slots (they're on the Top 10 of pretty much every Sci-Fi list) doesn't even make the list.
I do think that the Top 10 is accurate for measuring which books were most influential (though I think "Stranger in a Strangeland" lost it's readership and influence back in the 80's)
Player Piano was Vonnegut's breakthrough novel, which rose him to stardom.
Kurt Vonnegut said that in writing Player Piano (1952), he "cheerfully ripped off the plot of Brave New World, whose plot had been cheerfully ripped off from Yevgeny Zamyatin's We."
Ursula K. Le Guin's "The Dispossessed", number #39 on the Top 100, was also directly influenced by Zamyatin's "We"
Zamyatin's "We" also influenced the Sci-Fi film Aelita (1924)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aelita
Not sure if this is bait or people actually care about shitty books this much
>>8153435
"We" was a shitty book and it was also tremendously influential in shaping the dystopian sub-genre.
>>8153441
Only children read 'dystopian' books.
Might as well be reading comics
>>8153435
I'm still baffled at how can people praise 1984 after that disastrous part 3.
>>8153447
Not to sound like a Hitch Bitch, but Orwell is always worth reading. I'd also read the Mustapha Mond Interview section of Brave New World... you're probably right about the rest of it.
>>8153460
that mustapha mond bit is basically a tldr of plato's republic
>>8153447
I bet you hate Hemingway and Steinbeck too, you /lit/ snob.
Posting some book-covers to honor the book:
>>8153244
>by far one of the most influential Sci-Fi novels ever
Ayyy lmao
>>8153301
There are just way too many similarities between We and BNW for it to be a coincidence. A couple minor similarities I would buy, but it was much more than that.
Last one I have:
>>8153556
Just because a work unknown in modern times does not mean it isn't influential. Take "What Is to Be Done?", an 1863 novel written by the Russian philosopher Nikolai Chernyshevsky.
This book *DEEPLY* pissed off both Leo Tolstoy and Dostoevsky.
Fyodor Dostoevsky mocked the utilitarianism and utopianism of the novel in his 1864 novella Notes from Underground, as well as in his 1872 novel Devils.
Leo Tolstoy wrote a different What Is to Be Done?, published in 1886, based on his own ideas of moral responsibility.
Vladimir Lenin, however, found it inspiring and named a 1902 pamphlet "What Is to Be Done?". Lenin is said to have read the book five times in one summer, and according to Professor Emeritus of Slavic and Comparative Literature at Stanford, Joseph Frank, 'Chernyshevsky's novel, far more than Marx's Capital, supplied the emotional dynamic that eventually went to make the Russian Revolution.'
Vladimir Nabokov's final novel in Russian, The Gift, thoroughly ridiculed What is to Be Done? in its fourth chapter.
In the book Ayn Rand: The Russian Radical, author Chris Matthew Sciabarra says that What Is to Be Done? is one of the sources of inspiration for Rand's thought. For example, the book's main character Lopuhov says "I am not a man to make sacrifices. And indeed there are no such things. One acts in the way that one finds most pleasant." Chernyshevsky's egoism was ultimately socialistic, and thus quite distinct from the capitalistic form later advocated by Rand.
......
Would you not called "What is to be done" one of the more influential books in Modern times, even though it isn't even in print in the USA?
whats the best translation for this
>>8153447
Including The Drowned World and Diaspora? I don't think children would be capable of reading a lot of dystopians.
>>8153244
Her teeth were sharp and very white and this was beautiful.
>>8153244
Goodreads lists are usually pretty dire anyway, don't rely solely on them or their rating system. You'll see Harry Potter, Twilight and The Hunger Games top more lists about "things to read before you die" type shit rather than actual classics.
I voted for We. Fuck Timeline.
Why is Animal Farm on there? It's not Scifi in any way.
>>8153421
I don't think this is true at all. I can't think of one non superficial similarity
>>8153377
>Player Piano
My favourite Vonnegut's work. Don't know why it is not mentioned more often.
>>8153421
But we was completed in 1921
>all these ''we'' and not a single wuz
for shame, /lit/, for shame
WUZ
>>8154510
>>8154510
Wrong board, faggot
If you're looking for non-English Sci-Fi that should be on the list.
R.U.R. is a Czech Sci-Fi play that has the first use of the word Robot.
Past the Top 100 there are four Non-English Sci-Fi:
#106: Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea (French)
#108: We (Russian)
#130: Planet of the Apes (French)
#170: Roadside Picnic (Russian)
>>8155905
Wow, Roadside Picnic is way underrated.
>>8154510
KANGZ
"George Orwell, you poser. You punk. You . . . thief! I heard that you had read this before writing 1984. But I didn't expect Zamyatin's writing to be so superior to yours. And it is. It is so much more intriguing than your sterile work. D-503 is so much the better character than Winston. And you rob I-333 of her power and respect by demoting Julia to the role of a sexual object that stirs Winston to action. Yes, D-503 is stirred to action by I-333, but she's the political activist, the intelligent one in this revolution. Besides, Zamyatin had the guts to apply a letter and a name to his characters, while your very English "Winston" makes your work smack of parochialism and, frankly, condescension. D-503 is the universal toadie and I-333 the universal revolutionary.
"Winston"? Really? Were you trying to evoke Churchill? Somehow I sense . . .
Regardless of this, Zamyatin's prose is far better than yours. It never seems hackneyed, and rarely pedantic, though I suppose any novel that portrays rebellion against totalitarianism has to be somewhat pedantic. But because Zamyatin actually lived under a totalitarian state - TWO, actually! - and you only imagined what the Socialists would do in your imaginary world, he avoids much of the rhetoric that you seem to embrace, even while lampooning the imagined society of Big Brother.
You see, despite his impersonal name, D-503 is so much more human than Winston. Yes, Winston is a revolutionary like D-503, but when I read him in comparison with the protagonist of We, Winston comes off as disingenuous. D-503 is the real deal, because Zamyatin was the real deal. The man was exiled by both the Tsar and the Communists for his free-thinking while you were worried about threats from within your country that never materialized. Maybe that's why 1984 feels so forced (remember that awful middle section outlining the world's politics - BORING!), while We feels so much more natural and easy to read.
Furthermore, Zamyatin's prose is beautiful. Yes, you have the occasional turn of phrase that came out well, iconic, even, but Zamyatin's writing is beautiful throughout, even in its stochasticity. It's the writing of a poet who actually lived under totalitarianism, not a vested academic who feared a potential threat. You were fighting despotism, Zamyatin was living with it. You surmised, he knew.
And for these reasons, I am doing the unprecedented (for me, at least): I am taking one of your stars and giving it to Zamyatin. Because, while his work isn't perfect, one must give credit where credit is due. Censorship, along with the the Cold War, gave you your day in the sun of America's high school classrooms, when, all along, those kids, myself included, should have been reading Zamyatin's work.
That's an injustice. Maybe you're not totally to blame. Maybe Western society has to shoulder some of the guilt here. But . . . but . . . you copycat! "
>>8154510
Because we're not retarded. Now leave.
>>8156117
what is this reddit bullshit
We is very influential but it's also a very poorly written, atrocious book. Its derivatives are much better.
There isn't any way to deal with the English bias. Just read two lists. There is a list of only non-English scifi
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/23-best-non-english-science-fiction-books/
LoL....you guys bumped it up 10 places....it's almost taken out Timeline! Haha
>>8153330
its really not that shocking tho
I went to B&N and while 1984 and BNW were in the fiction section with all the other classics, We was shoved in the single scifi/fantasy bookcase with DND manuals and star wars fanfiction
it simply doesnt have an audience today, its sad, but I wouldnt call it shocking
i think its a really good book by the way, some really good writing. I particularly enjoyed one section when hes wondering whether the natural state of man is communal or individualism and he thinks of how its only the unhealthy, the sickly tooth/fingernail/eyelash that demands individual notice. when healthy all our teeth work in harmony and disappear in the communal mechanics of our mouth
I always wondered if people who voted for "Gone with the Wind", "War and Peace", and "Crime and Punishment" on the Best Books Ever lists actually read them? Or maybe those books just get passively voted on by people who assume they're the best due to them being already hailed as a Classic?
I've met people who call Vonnegut or Frank Herbert an absolute genius and then go off into a a discussion or story about them---but I'll interject and say "wait, have you actually read anything by them?" and they'll admit that they haven't.
In that same respect, I wonder if these people who vote for DUNE, BRAVE NEW WORLD, and 1984 have actually even read the book (outside of a guided session in High School).
>>8154510
It works perfectly too, because this is exactly that sort of situation but with some obscure Russian book.
>>8156854
">with some obscure Russian book."
That's the point OP is trying to make. There are basically no Non-English books on that Top100 list.
>>8156921
What do you expect on a primarily English-speaking site, especially one that's predominantly used by people whose favorite books are things like Harry Potter and Hunger Games and will give things one star ratings for being too hard to read?
Goodreads isn't exactly a bastion of high culture or knowledge.
>>8156981
The fact that it's a site full of the plebbest plebs in existence is a bigger deal than the "primarily English-speaking part"
most readers don't have any particular prejudice against translated literature and read quite a bit of it
>>8156999
Yes, but they're both factors, especially when combined. Even if you'll read translated literature you'll still have a prejudice against it on a subconscious level and not rate it as highly as a "masterpiece" that was originally in the language you're most familiar with even if you read both and think highly of some translated works.
If you're not a pleb, this can be curbed to some extent, but it's impossible to do away with entirely and the effect is significantly more pronounced with people who aren't aware of any of this.
Any evidence to show that Jack London's "Iron Heel" (1908) influenced "We"?
>>8156921
>"We"
>some obscure Russian book
rly
You gotta have separate lists.
Its stupid to compare Brave New World to Neuromancer theres 50 years difference. Same with Dune to Martian.
Read a Russian Scifi list if you want real Scifi
To have a great Sci-Fi list, if put two quotas of 20% foreign books and 20% pre-1950. That would secure the forefathers like Olaf Stapleton.
A city of glass, 1,000 years in the future, domed, with a green wall, to keep out all the undesirable, primitive life forms. Animal, human, vegetable or insect...A clean and sparkling place, for its millions of citizens, everything and everyone, has a schedule, the perfect "One State". No privacy, people have numbers for names, they dress (light blue uniforms) , and eat the same food, live in small, sparse apartments, which are transparent. No drinking or smoking, even sex regulated by, yes, an appointment. Regular daily walks, pep talks at auditoriums, to keep all, motivated. Thousands sing and listen to the sacred words, they have heard, countless times before. Guardians to help the "Benefactor's" rules, be followed, timetables are enforced! Any deviations, are rigorously crushed. D-503, is the chief, in charge, of building the spaceship, Integral, now the perfect society, can conquer space, soon bringing happiness and order, to a chaotic universe. D-503, has a regular sex partner, 0-90, but she falls in love, with the mathematician, the State, doesn't approve, emotional entanglements. It causes disorder, in a strict culture, no more conflicts! The blue planet, was devastated, after the 200 - year - long war, 99% of the population died. Then he sees 1-330, a Will -o'-the- Wisp, forever coming and going, befuddling D-503. He can never differentiate, reality from a mirage, when she's around, a brilliant man, who returns to Earth. Love reduces people to silliness, misery and sometimes, a little euphoria, but there is something strange going on, a secret, she has an agenda. His best friend, R-13, is somehow connected, the poet, is full of big dreams, what ? Mad Revolution, unthinkable, "Unfreedom", is paradise, D-503 is scared ... He is taken by her, amazingly, outside the walls, he feels naked, uncomfortable . Seeing crawling things, always moving about, in the frightening, and unknown green environment, is the vegetation, very unhealthy ? Yellow fruit, which D-503, recognized, from ancient books, in old museums. The hot sun shining down, nothing to regulate it here, humans too, dressed unalike ... Weird, they don't look any different, from us. The wise man, is drawn deeper into a plot, he just can't say no, to the beautiful, 1-330. Causing much turbulence between he and dear, jealous, 0-90, but he is being watched, closely, by the Guardians. Does he risk torture and death, for the woman he loves, who may just be using D-503, for her own, personal ambitions? Still the builder, is a romantic, at heart, in a civilization, that doesn't believe or tolerate, such nonsense. What will it be, a bland but safe existence, all the worries, taken care of, by the suffocating, inhuman, State ? Not very fulfilling, or an exciting, prospect, an unfamiliar, perilous world? ... And Birds are seen, inside the city ...
>>8153244
I think that 'We' is probably a little obscure for it to feature on a Goodreads list, but it is a pretty important dystopian novel. 'We' is a classic example of a novel that is ultimately too influential for its own good. Orwell basically killed the book.
>>8153244
Titles that don't belong on a Best SF list:
Hunger Games
Speaker for the Dead
Ready Player One
Ender's Shadow
The Martian
Wool Omnibus
The Player of Games
World War Z
and so on, more and more toward the bottom of the GR list
Given all of these being on the list, it definitely is ridiculous that We isn't
"We" has dropped back to #108. Make sure you vote if you haven't already:
https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/19341.Best_Science_Fiction?page=2
>>8158759
Ummmmmmmmmmm....Speaker for the Dead is a masterwork?
It is an accurate projection into the social struggles of Space Colonization because we, inevitably, will have to deal with religious nuts adapting and colonizing despite all technological-refutations of their beliefs.
The first thing we did when we landed on the Moon was read from the fucking Book of Genesis. How embarrassing is that?
And just like when we "discovered Polynesia and Micronesia, who were the first volunteers? Church of Christ, Christian Scientists, and Seventh Day Adventists. And you know what happened? Those islands are all cult-like due that hundred-year-old bullshit.
Orson Scott Card completely rejects everyone's expectations for a sequel and dives into aging, widowhood, Catholicism, the US-Indian concentration camps, as well as the tragedies of Religious Colonialism.
Don't fucking say that book doesn't deserve to be on the list.
>>8159090
Card is himself a religious nutbag.
>>8159102
And some of the biggest critics of fringe religions are people who belong to other fringe religions.
Huge sections of that book are attacks on Catholic/Authoritarian/Priestly religions and ideas.
>>8159090
I'm sure that it was a very profound experience reading it in eighth grade, anon, but that doesn't mean it's very good.
>>8159148
On what planet do 8th graders read Hugo and Nebula-award winning Sci-Fi novels clocking in at 400+ pages?
Pic related: actual books from an 8th grade reading list.
>>8153252
Allocco
>>8159271
The books in that photo are for elementary school. Eighth graders read books like Bleak House and The Left Hand of Darkness. Speaker for the Dead is more like Seventh grade level.
>>8159793
Your mom must be so proud that you've graduated from trolling /b/ to trolling /lit/. You're really going places now!!!
EVEN IF...Goodreads is a popularity contest where Pop-fiction outranks Fiction.
EVEN IF...Goodreads is English-based
EVEN IF...it's for "plebs", whatever the fuck that means.
Having 98% of the list come from English-speaking countries is bullshit. No 20000 Leagues? No 3body problem? No Red Star by Bogdanov?
Three more votes and "We" should knock off Timeline.
....c'mon, let's anger the ghost of Crichton!!!
https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/19341.Best_Science_Fiction?page=2
"Vote for this book"
>>8160081
>No Red Star by Bogdanov?
not sure if it's important enough... imo if you want to read an early russian space fiction aelita the queen of mars written in 1923 is more known, albeit it's soviet while red star is pre-soviet from 1908
>>8160104
Yes, Aleksey Nikolayevich Tolstoy is highly underrated. Aelita has strong dysphoric and political themes.
Is there a pdf of Aelita? Is it $8 on amazon.
PDF of "We"
https://mises.org/library/we
PDF of "Red Star" by Bogdanov
https://monoskop.org/images/4/48/Bogdanov_Alexander_Red_Star_The_First_Bolshevik_Utopia.pdf
I cannot find a PDF of Aelita
>>8160126
There is also his "Garin Death Ray":
The Garin Death Ray also known as The Death Box and The Hyperboloid of Engineer Garin (Russian: Гипepбoлoид инжeнepa Гapинa) is a science fiction novel by the noted Russian author Aleksey Nikolayevich Tolstoy written in 1926–1927. Vladimir Nabokov considered it Tolstoy's finest fictional work.
The "hyperboloid" in its title is not a geometrical surface but a "death ray"-laser-like device (thought up by the author many decades before lasers were invented) that the protagonist, engineer Garin, used to fight his enemies and try to become a world dictator. "Hyperboloids" of different power capability differ in their effect. The device uses two hyperbolic mirrors to concentrate light rays in a parallel beam. Larger "hyperboloids" can destroy military ships on the horizon, and those of less power can only injure people and cut electric cables on walls of rooms.
Charles H. Townes, the inventor of laser, said that his invention had been inspired by this novel.
Major Lazer!!
