So I've been reading Nietzsche, Dostoiévski and Bauman recently and end up concluding that I'm a nihilist who denies political institutes, moral values and the meaning of life itself. Hence, I see no point of spending time caring about life choices such as college courses, or a vague definition of success for instance. The result of all this scheme is a miserable, weird and hell of anxious 20 years old man. I'm slightly losing my interest in everything. What should I read, what would enlight me, what do I do? Not sure if I had to post on /lit/ or /his/, but here sounds good enough.
masturbate
The metaphysical philosophy understood through the study of the spiritual Traditions of humanities high cultures
>>8149228
how does anyone go through those three authors and come out a nihilist
Read the Myth of Sisyphus and the rest of Camus's work.
Also start to take antidepressants and do some cardio.
Have you tried getting exercise and hanging out with friends?
Why would one want to overcome nihilism?
>>8149233
I mean, it just gets worse everytime.
>>8149250
Notes from the underground just fucked me up, senpai.
>>8149243
Can't see how that would help.
>>8149256
Thanks for the recs, it's about time a give Camus a chance. As for antidepressants I'm already considering this along with some aerobic activity to drop the effects of both depression and anxiety. Only literature and music can appease me through these days. My heart is fine tho
>>8149276
You should only feel nihilistic despair in regards to the ignorance and the failings of modern humanity, not in regards to existence itself
Nihilism is a natural step to take after modernism but it's not very helpful. It's hard to say there are no consistent rules to existence or even morality.
The answer is to become the Ubermensch that Nietzsche predicted. Raise your hand if you believe you're up to the task.
>>8149323
yea, i always thought about nihilism as an inevitable step of 'post-modernism' and our modern society values. Is it the fortune of the XXI century to be miserable or it always has been like that
>>8149228
Nihilism destroyed old Western/Christian concepts of meaning. So the easy answer is to look east. Schopenhauer did the same.
>>8149338
Well I'm a avid believer in the noble eightfold path of the budda, the only philosophy that actually improves my life more than just a fun logic puzzle. Sooo no suffering for me personally, but ironic detachment does seem to be winning these days.
>>8149364
>I'm a avid believer in the noble eightfold path of the budda
>>8149374
Best thing logic has ever done for anybody
By realizing that nihilism puts you at odds with the universe. You think there is no reason to move, but it's impossible to be motionless.
There is something out there. And it is so strange and unreachable that it must be real.
>>8149374
>he doesn't want to overcome viparinama-dukkha and sankhara-dukkha
You realize you are depriving yourself of thousands of years of thought, just because some hippies back in the day thought you could get high off meditation, right?
>>8149228
Read Camus
That doesn't work, read Marquis De Sade
If you get religious, read Kierkegaard
If you are still an atheist, read Brief History Of Time, watch a tonne of Rick And Morty then take up a degree in physics. Might as well discover the meaning of the universe if you cant figure out the meaning in your life
>>8149228
I don't think that an objective meaning of life exists but as long as I do something that I enjoy / makes me happy I don't ever get upset about that. I only ponder that kind of stuff when I'm not in a good mood. So find things you enjoy and base your life around that. If there's not much you enjoy you probably have to look harder or have a different kind of problem alltogether - which doesn't have anything to do with the "meaning of life". In fact I think that the only objective meaning of life that there could possibly be is enjoying the ride (and helping other to do so, too, which is where I get my idea of morals from).
>>8149364
>no suffering for me personally
that's not how buddhism works
>>8149488
Why do you assume meaning has to be something that makes you feel good?
>>8149470
>some hippies back in the day thought you could get high off meditation
while hippies are dumb to claim you can "get high off meditation," i do experience certain moments of clarity while meditating that feel similar to the effects of a psychedelic. not like visual hallucinations but an inner calm and an intuition of the universe's interconnectedness.
Once one is infected with nihilism as a conclusion of study, it is impossible to overcome without Christianity. Nietzsche offers a cure, but, as Father Seraphim Rose showed, nihilism is like a virus: it just forms a dialectic with Nietzsche, and sublates him, making it stronger.
>>8149476
Materialism is inherently inadequate as a means for discerning yhe true nature of anything outside of base exterior mechanisms
>>8149503
I wouldn't claim that only Christianity offers one the potential to overcome nihilism, but it's clear that spiritual Tradition is what lies beyond the cloud nihilistic disillusionment
>>8149509
I wouldn't claim that only spiritual tradition offers the potential to overcome nihilism, but that "faith" in anything at all is what brings you out of nihilistic disillusionment.
>>8149509
It's a religion, close enough. "Spiritual traditionalism" is a pretty terrible religion though, since its definition characteristic is traditionalism, yet it is not any traditional religion
>>8149503
>Once one is infected with nihilism as a conclusion of study, it is impossible to overcome without Christianity.
Nihilism stems from the devaluing of the highest values. Christianity, like any system which measures the value of the world according to categories of pure fiction like aim, unity, or beingness, is the cause of passive nihilism. Passive nihilism is the decline and recession of the power of the spirit. Christianity posited values which philosophy and the sciences came to devalue, hence the parable of the madman by Nietzsche and his premonition of passive nihilism in the nearby future.
Meanwhile, there is another form of nihilism according to Nietzsche, active nihilism. Active nihilism has the same attributes as passive nihilism, but is a sign of increased power of the spirit. Values are not just devalued, but revalued. You need to inspect the situation genealogically to understand which one is happening. God's death, if you valued God prior, will throw you into passive nihilism. However, moving into active nihilism is how you begin to overcome it, the stage where you now begin to transvaluate the world. After that, the Overman becomes the meaning of the earth.
So, Christianity is definitely not the only way to overcome nihilism, in fact it's not a way to do so at all. Moving to Christianity would be a retrogression at this point, if you wanted to remain on top of philosophy at all. Aim, unity, and beingness as described in Will to Power are concepts not at all aligned with the world, so valuing them is not the best idea.
>>8149333
Is mayonnaise an ubermensch?
>>8149276
notes from underground was a satire of this kind of thinking. you completely misinterpreted it!
If your sex organ works, you will eventually feel the need to reproduce regardless of value system, so get at least moderately successful to do that. Regardless of what you believe in you'll end up incarnating some basic virtue in society through that simple act, i.e you won't be completely useless.
>>8149775
>if you wanted to remain on top of philosophy at all
yeah but I don't want to remain on top of philosophy, I want to not kill myself.
>>8149825
also if you wanted to remain on top of philosophy you wouldn't take your philosophical advice from a hypocritical self-help author
>>8149825
If you actually wanted to kill yourself, you would have just drank a fifth of vodka and shot yourself in the head already.
>>8149825
But if you never die, how do you expect to ever be reborn?
That's what the whole point of this is. You have to let go of your old values that no longer hold up to the world, grasping onto them desperately being the cause of that feeling of despair, come to accept their passing, and then move on to new values.
If you don't want to be reborn, then just die and stay dead, or become a whiner. Your choice.
>>8149267
Because one is not truly a nihilist, a true nihilist wouldn't even care to label himself as anything.
>>8149491
It's how the noble eightfold path works
>>8149468
This
Something is going on and i want to know what it is. Thats enough of a reason for me
If you read Nietzsche you'd understand that you didn't "conclude" you were a nihilist yourself, you were predisposed to draw that conclusion based on your mental state, constitution, and capabilities.
The solution is to want something more. That's it. It all comes from our desires and needs.
A huge number of young men seem to feel like you. Probably the result of overstimulation through fast food, binge drinking, porn addiction, and instant 24 hour gratification of your curiosity.
>>8149250
Because he didn't
Man up. Join the military or at least work. Or just push yourself really hard at whatever you do. constant motion is the answer. You're an animal, you're happier when you do human animal things like move, love, hate, work. Just do more shit.
>>8149868
>Join the military or at least work
This could be the worst advice I've ever read here. You legitimately sound like a retarded person.
>>8149775
>according to categories of pure fiction like aim, unity, or beingness, is the cause of passive nihilism
Saying these are fictions is the definition of nihilism
>a retrogression
Yeah, Nietzsche, like all 19th Century German philosophers save based Schop, bought the idea of "current year" hook, line and sinker, and waxed about the coming age when their philosophy would be fulfilled. Something Nietzsche, ultimately, through intermediaries, pirated from Christianity.
>>8149877
>Saying these are fictions is the definition of nihilism
How do you figure?
>>8149868
Human beings a clearly wholey distinct from animals anon. Every single time you liken the human experience to animalistic urges you're just advocating for a degradation of the human identity.
>>8149882
Presuming we're using Nietzsche as an authority
>Presupposition of this hypothesis: that there is no truth, that there is no absolute nature of things nor a "thing-in-itself." This, too, is merely nihilism-even the most extreme nihilism. It places the value of things precisely in the lack of any reality corresponding to these values and in their being merely a symptom of strength on the part of the value-positers, a simplification for the sake of life.
>>8149333
nice trip.
>>8149888
I didn't say there's no truth though... or no absolute nature of things. The absolute nature of things is, in fact, non-absolute. The truth is that those are fictional categories (or at any rate, it is more truthful than those categories themselves).
>>8149909
When you say there is no "being", I am presuming you mean no "thing-in-itself", since "being" is used synonymously with that by all German idealists after Kant.
>>8149872
one needs to work to sustain himself.
>>8149916
Yes, that is what beingness meant there.
However, some things to consider:
1. That passage you quoted was from scattered notebooks of Nietzsche, not published. While I recall a similar passage in Will to Power, that also contains some unfinished work.
2. When I say that there is no thing-in-itself, because I share Nietzsche's Yes-saying outlook, it is not the same as when an absolutist says it. This is the same with Nietzsche. When I say there is no beingness, no thing-in-itself, this is not an absolute statement, but an interpretation.
3. It would be passive nihilism and almost ressentiment if the denial of the concept was at the forefront, but it isn't here. I deny the concept, in favor of superior ones; the latter are at the forefront. Similarly to the later Nietzsche, who began flinging his No's around everywhere, after having reached the point of understanding that an eternal Yes-saying requires a powerful No-saying, and that one must say Yes to saying No, too.
>>8150158
>1. That passage you quoted was from scattered notebooks of Nietzsche, not published. While I recall a similar passage in Will to Power, that also contains some unfinished work.
It's not just some random note Nietzsche scribbled as it occurred to him, though, it's a quote from a large draft of continuous exposition.
>When I say there is no beingness, no thing-in-itself, this is not an absolute statement, but an interpretation.
It you're appealing solely to relativism, this can go nowhere. There's no point in debating this. You are taking the view of a transsexual and applying it to all of reality.
> I deny the concept, in favor of superior ones
"Superior" here is completely meaningless. In your framework, it just means, "What I prefer" and literally nothing more. What is actually superior interests me. What you prefer does not unless it coincides with it, and when you definition superior solely and purely as "whatever I prefer", then your conception has zero value to mean.
>an eternal Yes-saying requires a powerful No-saying, and that one must say Yes to saying No, too.
Hence
>>8149503
>as Father Seraphim Rose showed, nihilism is like a virus: it just forms a dialectic with Nietzsche, and sublates him, making it stronger.
Nietzsche tries to counter nihilism by an affirmative which merely becomes a very strong, affirmative version of nihilism. Nothing has any value of itself anymore, things are valued according to life-affirmation (excitement), and we see what happens when this is applied to art: art can no longer be valued for itself, only for how "avant-garde" it is.
>>8150158
>that one must say Yes to saying No, too.
You must also remember that a positive times a negative is still a negative.
>>8149804
DO NOT DARE
>>8150191
>It's not just some random note Nietzsche scribbled as it occurred to him, though, it's a quote from a large draft of continuous exposition.
It's a note he nonetheless never officially published, but my point is that there is more to this full picture that is Nietzsche, and being an unpublished note makes it more difficult to trace where in that picture the fragment is meant to fit.
Pic related are other unpublished notes of his. In 10[202] he calls the thing-in-itself an absurdity, since stripping a thing of all its attributes, which includes its relationships, changes what the thing is — but he says thingness is a fiction created by us for the purpose of logic and communication. He doesn't say, "don't think of things-in-themselves any more," but simply points out that it is a fiction with a purpose. In 5[14] he makes an interesting point that science and logic has actually fictionalized more of the world than it made into possible knowledge. 9[35] and 9[91] is the full crash course on this subject, with 11[72] a preview of his ultimate conclusion and goal.
1/2
>>8151506
>Nietzsche tries to counter nihilism by an affirmative which merely becomes a very strong, affirmative version of nihilism. Nothing has any value of itself anymore, things are valued according to life-affirmation (excitement)
If you read over 9[35] and 9[91] more, Nietzsche does not end on active nihilism... active nihilism is an intermediate state either characteristic of decadence that is still hesitating or of productive forces that are not yet strong enough to invent the resources it needs. These combined notes, to me, say that the entire process of God's death -> nihilism -> post-nihilism is this:
+ Once, God was found to be true. There was aim, unity, and beingness (thingness).
+ The development of science fictionalized God, and fictionalized aim, unity, and beingness.
+ This fictionalization leads to a sovereign ignorance, a weakening of the appropriating force, which is nihilism — "knowledge" itself is a fiction now.
+ Active nihilism is when the appropriating force becomes strong enough to reinvent meaning for itself. It is destructive AND creative, but it still sees fiction as it seeks to triumph over its passive nihilism. Aim is still a thingness to it, because the world of thingness, as faint as it now is, continues to linger behind.
+ The philosophy that comes after meaning has been reinvented, the philosophy inherited by the next generation, the generation that no longer has to reinvent meaning but can now live by the meaning created by the past reinventors (which was designed in alignment with becomingness), is no longer nihilistic. It does not see fiction anymore. It believes fully in itself and what it does.
>we see what happens when this is applied to art: art can no longer be valued for itself, only for how "avant-garde" it is.
The avant-garde, abstract, all that nonsense is not characteristic of the final stage above, Nietzsche's philosophy. It's characteristic of the intermediate state, active nihilism, in its DECADENT form. Art, when Nietzsche's endgame philosophy is applied, becomes immersion, as we see in Alex Kierkegaard, whose philosophy is Nietzsche's endgame in full active form.
Also, see my post in this other thread >>8149229, it's relevant here. Interestingly enough, Nietzsche's endgame shares some properties when observed from an outsider perspective, or the mediocre ones, with Christ's. Your Father Seraphim Rose guy is picking up on that, I think, without acknowledging that Christianity has that quality too.
>>8149495
I don't need meaning when I'm feeling good
>>8149250
>how does anyone go through those three authors and come out a nihilist
Easily: reading whilst not having the opportunities to have a good life like they did.
>>8151773
So essentially, reading people whose works were not meant for that reader.
>>8149228
>Dostoevsky
>nihilism
One recognises that there are subjectively better ways of being than others, certainly for oneself and next to certainly for everyone else and one makes an effort to take responsibility to change things in relation to this. Fairly simple in terms of logic. It's just hard in terms of making the effort which is the real problem 99% of you likely have
>>8149228
>Claims to be a nihilist
>Wants to overcome nihilism
You haven't shed the spooks just yet, kid.
>>8149228
Why do people treat nihilism like something unideal, to be overcome?
I find the opposite to be far worse. Let's say life does have a 'meaning' or a 'purpose' - all that does is impose lifelong duties upon you. Why would anyone want that sort of pressure?
Unless they're so weak that they can't apply any sort of direction on their lives, and need it to come from without; or, require direction at all.
>>8151855
There is no such thing as life without direction. Aimlessness is death. An organism ceases when the parts of it can no longer move together.
>>8151864
>There is no such thing as life without direction. Aimlessness is death.
Spoken like a true drone.
Read Laozi.
>>8151855
People who are most satisfied with life are those who feel a sense of purpose in what they're doing even if it's hard.
That's one of the conditions to get people into flow state which is apparently one of the best states of being possible minus drugs etc.
Whereas purposelessness in everything is unbearable and not a way of being that anyone can truly embody with any fullness
>>8151872
Laozi doesn't advocate aimlessness
>>8151875
>satisfaction
>purpose
>>8151878
His entire philosophy is basically taking whatever shit comes your way, good or bad.
Start using psychedelics?
Don't be stupid and take a large dosis the first time, start low and increment with small amounts on subsequent trips.
>>8151889
Don't even know what you're trying to say
>>8151894
Almost like that's an aim or something
>>8151925
I'm saying that you're dealing in spooks, and I'm telling you to stop.
>>8151931
Maybe one more attempt and you'll get to the courage to make a reply not hidden behind memes. Not optimistic tb h
>>8151807
>So essentially, reading people whose works were not meant for that reader.
Pretty much, they were all meant for the upper class who can afford to do whatever they want with their life. Unfortunately the more intelligent members of the underclass read that shit too and it fucks up their lives even worse.
Stop being retarded and then read Nietzsche again.
>>8149228
Probably bait, but w/e.
Real existential threats and more doubt in your understanding of reality. You don't ''have'' to do anything that you criticized nignog. Figure out what to do, introspection and all that goofy shit.
>>8151855
>Why would anyone want that sort of pressure?
It's not "pressure" to strong healthy types who have an innate sense of self-worth and ambition.
inb4
>define "strong healthy types"
Just look at Greek mythology. Practically every fucking entity is a good example, and none of them question their life's meaning or purpose, or feel burdened by their own ambitions — they are just purely ambitious and passionate.
>>8149228
I guess personality
I've read the same authors you have, only that I can't remain nihilistic when the entire world is crumbling all around me. I take actions, hoping the moment of now is not eternal.
>>8149228
>Still ascribing your world views and philosophies to fucking Nietzsche
Just
Give
Up
I don't get how le fruit virgin wasn't a nihilist, if you believe nihilism is essentially true but say 'make your own values' as a response, you're still a nihilist
Okay. Okay. First of all, how does one sincerely become a nihilist or an atheist after reading Nietzsche? Do you not comprehend that he repeatedly alluded to his writings NOT being for the common man? His works are meant for the Ubermensch, the over-man, and that does not signify anyone who picks them up, let alone able to understand them. Second of all, he leaves out the answers to becoming that superior being. His philosophy analyzes the degeneration of the Western world, and in no way should be taken as a guide-line to combat the decline. When he says: "everything of today; it falleth, it decayeth. Who would preserve it? But I-I also wish to push it", he refers to that timely aphorism all things come to an end. Our decline is inevitable, but one should not lament over it. On the contrary, celebrate and revel in the ruins perpetuated by an inevitable destruction. Yes, perhaps the average reader will capitulate: I will die out as a race. However, an Ubermensch comes to the realization that old ideals could be revived, and, consequentially, that survival overwhelms him to the point he is neither moved nor tormented by anything but those ideals. He laments over the fact that those ideals are unattainable, yet he spiritually persists for he acknowledges that evolutionary spark igniting throughout his soul. He will never obtain superiority, but his kin, God help them, will.
>>8152336
You misunderstand his point. He does not claim for the Ubermensch to 'make up their own virtues'. Instead, they should find whatever existing remnants of European values and tradition to build on them.
>>8151951
>hidden behind memes
Memes are the light that illuminate the path to immortality.
>>8152421
*farts*
*wipes it on your shirt*
>>8152424
It is a long path, for sure.
>>8149256
i told myself i'd never take antidepressants because they'll ruin my creativity, but i haven't had the motivation to do anything in a long time. there really isn't any point in fighting anymore, i'm fucked either way.
>>8149228
Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics
Plato's Symposium, & Republic
>>8149852
but what am i supposed to want? the only thing that seems worth fighting for is financial self-sufficiency, so i don't have to spend my time doing something i don't want to do in order to make money, but then what? what am i supposed to do with my time when i get there?
i'm not saying i can't think of anything, i could try to write a novel, i could read as many books as i can, i could go get laid as much as possible, i could try to start a family, i could try to get into the film industry, i could try to become a therapist, but it all seems completely pointless. i feel like every time i've told myself there's something i want to do with my life, i've just been lying to myself.
>>8149503
>muh father seraphim rose.
fuck off.
>>8149470
Mention one person who has achieved Buddhism's ultimate goal (nirvana).
Hard mode: case confirmed by evidence. Buddha doesn't count because his story is only backed up by anecdotal evidence.
>>8149868
the most reddit-tier post I've ever seen on this board
>>8152767
>motivation
Worthless. If you don't feel like you must write, if there is no feeling of necessity, give up.
>>8152831
edgy
>>8152800
>but what am i supposed to want? the only thing that seems worth fighting for is financial self-sufficiency, so i don't have to spend my time doing something i don't want to do in order to make money, but then what? what am i supposed to do with my time when i get there?
You'll never get there anyway. You're supposed to just add expenses until you have to work more and more and become a better and better drone.
>>8152855
luckily i don't really want any possessions either. all i buy is books.
Just as atheism is a negation of God, so is nihilism a negation of the Good, the True, and the Beautiful.
Just as atheism is often the result of being unable to reconcile the evil in the world with its Creator, so is nihilism the result of a mind unable to reconcile the evil, falsehood, and ugliness in the world with the Good, the True, and the Beautiful.
Plato remarks in the Phaedo that it is dangerous for a young man to engage in philosophy, because in philosophising is sure to see many false positions refuted, and being young and eager to find the truth, if he finds only refutation and refutation, he may arrive at the notion that there is no truth whatsoever, and that reason itself is useless. Indeed, nihilism is found especially among the young today, and especially among the young who have engaged a little in philosophy. Today, there is a failure to pass on morals to children and to provide them with a justification to persevere in attaining the Good amidst so much evil, in pursuing the Truth among so much falsehood, in obtaining the Beautiful despite such prevailing ugliness; instead, children are encouraged to "seek their own values", which leaves them with the task of philosophising at a very young age. Most children, without any parent or teacher to give them morals, will simply adopt the morals of their fellow children; more thoughtful children will try to discover their own morals, which is a highly dangerous task which may lead to virtue or to extreme vice.
As modern society encourages the toleration of all points of view, the child is most likely to uncritically adopt a moral relativist position early on; in his society he sees people from many different religions, nations, ethnicities, etc., and he will try to reconcile these by saying that what is good and what is true is a matter of opinion up to an individual or to a group. He will adopt this relativist position perhaps even before he has began to read a single word of the philosophers, but if he begins philosophy with the modern writers he will typically find a justification for his opinion. If he reads the Greeks, particularly Plato and Aristotle, he will be tempted to read them only out of curiosity, and see them only as a stepping stone to the modern philosophy which has already come to espouse; he will not seriously consider their positions, and perhaps even fail to see that they argue against the position which he holds. He does not yet have anything of the spirit of Socrates, of the philosopher, who distrusts his own mind, and seeks the Good, the True, and the Beautiful, with untiring effort; instead, he is eager to arrive at the truth early and imagine that he has already found it, and the ease by which he found the truth he attributes to his superior intelligence.
>>8149504
And yet, its all we have to validate our sensory experience and the world around us. We could go the Buddhist route of "fuck it, karma" and hope when we die life doesn't suck as much, but that holds little comfort for who you are now.
Clinging to the absurd truth that there is no truth, he risks falling into nihilism and despair. If he does not despair, it will be because he finds some comfort in the truth of the relativist position, in that it seemingly provides for a greater humanity by which all men come to tolerate one and other and live in a reconciled diversity, which is the popular justification for relativism that the dominant culture provides. However, if he goes one step further beyond the relativist position, to see that there is no reason on the relativist account why one should prefer humanity to inhumanity, peace to war, life to death, good to evil, true to false, beauty to ugliness, then he falls into nihilism. How this nihilism manifests in his behaviour will depend upon his personality. In some, it will lead to reclusion from the world as the world and life itself is seen as utterly meaningless. In others, it will lead to a quasi-demonic desire to destroy oneself with dangerous and immoral behaviour in order to demonstrate to the world how much contempt one has for it. All this results from a too hasty desire to arrive at the truth, which is typical in the youth and in proud men in general. What is needed is the Socratic humility which does not dare to openly deny that there is truth, and does not dare to declare that one knows the truth, that one might ever seek the truth and know it more fully. However, many would prefer to say that there is no truth, if only because it saves them the trouble of having to find it, or because, if they did find it, it might reproach them for their way of life. Generally, however, in the life of the nihilist there is a restless anxiety which seeks to fill the void the denial of truth has made, because the human mind was made for truth, and without the truth it has no where to rest.
go insane!!!!
>>8152944
Bullshit. Real nihilism is simply negation. "Nothing" doesn't exist. If something "is" nothing, it simply "isn't".
Treating nothing as if it were a being creates a black hole like asymptotic fuck up in your brain. "Nothing" is a figment of human rationalizing.
Read more Heidegger.
>>8152963
i have never seen somebody misunderstand something as badly as you just did
>>8152944
So rather than continuing to explore all of these ideas and deal with the refutations, you are just going to adopt one of the first ideas that we're ever refuted: God? Are you sure a metaphysical construct like Truth entrenched in a religious construct like God is really an exploration of whats really there, or is more of a coping mechanism in a complex world humans have created for themselves?
>>8152950
>However, if he goes one step further beyond the relativist position, to see that there is no reason on the relativist account why one should prefer humanity to inhumanity, peace to war, life to death, good to evil, true to false, beauty to ugliness
Yeah but if you don't have to do that. If you recgonise that morals are bullshit than you can look for universal ways to help improve happiness for all humans because otherwise you would be contradicting yourself if you believe everyone thinks differently yet you can't accommodate this diversity.
Moral relativism in this case is the truth that people are searching for and can help inform our ideas. Its only Christfags that can't deal with ideas that encroach up their adopted metaphysical system of thought that struggle to realize what nihilists are actually thinking.
>What is needed is the Socratic humility which does not dare to openly deny that there is truth
Socrates would have a shit fit if he realized how uncritical the Western mind has become. Are you sure you aren't the one who is "[in] a restless anxiety which seeks to fill the void the denial of truth has made"? Because you seem pretty hell bent on STRIFLING philosophical inquiry rather than searching for it.
>However, many would prefer to say that there is no truth, if only because it saves them the trouble of having to find it, or because, if they did find it, it might reproach them for their way of life
But you just said that the nihilist accepts moral relativism as truth
>>8152974
You are mistaking the history of humanity for your own history. God and Truth may have been rejected rather recently by a group of philosophers that are now popular, but do not act as if you were among them.
Personally, the idea that God and Truth are "coping mechanisms" in a "complex world" (examine what you mean by the word "complex" here and you will see that it is meaningless) was my first idea which I received from the prevailing attitudes around me, and which I had to overcome with considerable effort.
The idea that we must reject God because "history has rejected God" is a superstitious Hegelian belief in the divinity of history.
>>8153003
> If you recgonise that morals are bullshit than you can look for universal ways to help improve happiness for all humans
Yet if morals are bullshit there is no reason why one should care about humanity at all. Morality is not just a set of arbitrary commands, it is an exposition on good and evil. If you say that moral is bullshit you are saying that there is no good and evil, so there is no reason to think that human happiness is better than human misery.
>you would be contradicting yourself if you believe everyone thinks differently yet you can't accommodate this diversity.
There is another way to accommodate diversity: realise that, often, some people are right and others are wrong.
>>8153022
Put it this way, if you accept that human happiness is good and human misery is evil, you already have an ethical principle from which you can derive an entire moral code of ethics. In fact, Aristotle himself says that ethics begins with the human desire for happiness, and that the system of morals, the practice of virtues and avoidance of vices, is the realisation of this happiness.
>>8152971
Please enlighten me
>>8153022
>God and Truth may have been rejected rather recently by a group of philosophers
They we're also fairly heavily critiqued by the Greeks. Epicurus didn't think you needed God to help you figure your life out.
>but do not act as if you were among them.
I didn't
>Personally
Yeah thats the key word isn't it: Personally. As in something that you have realized and that relates specifically to you. But is it truth or is it just your understanding of how history as developed and how other people think?
>Hegel
I think I read somewhere that Nietzsche and his ilk we're not big fans of Hegel FYI.
What does "history has rejected God" even mean? I wasn't even thinking of Hegel when I questioned your fixation.
>there is no reason why one should care about humanity at all
Well theres the categorical imperative which is a rational demonstration of the Golden Rule.
>there is no good and evil
Well yeah there is no good and evil, and these two concepts DO NOT automatically conflate with happiness and misery. You might interpret one's desire to spread happiness amongst other human beings as "good" but really its a just an extension of a rational, utilitarian assessment of our place in the universe. you could also argue its natural *insert evolutionary psychological idea here*
>realise that, often, some people are right and others are wrong
That doesn't really accommodate diversity but ok, assuming you are right, why is your own idiosyncratic assessment of some metaphysical universality that you think is where we should entrench morals is both
A) Free from the problems with nihilism you just mentioned and
B) Promotes diversity. After all fit here is right and wrong, why would you ever pick the wrong?
>>8153003
>If you recgonise that morals are bullshit than you can look for universal ways to help improve happiness for all humans
"Improving human happiness" is not an acceptable goal. Making every human on earth miserable for their entire lives would be negligible cost if it meant reaching the thing which we have no words for.
>>8153150
>Making every human on earth miserable for their entire lives would be negligible cost if it meant reaching the thing which we have no words for.
Which is why in many ways a purely religious adherence is philosophically bankrupt. Unlike this other poster, its pretty clear that there is no longer reason why you would continue testing the physical world, seek Truth or explore using reason if you already had the answer.
And yet people do it. Some of the fiercest existentialists are Christians who try and justify the world around them in a way that their metaphysical narrative make sense. Some do it better than others, clearly, as this person would has us abandon critical thought just to avoid the anxiety of existentialism, to turn away from possibilities that don't fit their narrative.
Its easy for these pseud chan posters to chalk up these issues to positivism, historicism, atheism, Hegelism, Kantism or even just youth implying some sort of corruption of philosophy and human thinking when really, they are one's who are attempting to stifle it because its the easy way.
heiddegger/eastern thought
or take acid
>>8149476
You have to go back.
>>8149496
You don't know enough about meditation then. The jhanas can be compared to psychedelic states.
>>8149887
Nope, still just animal, albeit the most intelligent in terms of matter manipulation.
If you actually study zoology you'd see that we are different by degrees, not categorically. All the primary factors of what makes us people exist in many other animals. And some of our highest aspects like love, fondness and memories of loved ones, culture, friendship, etc all exist in animals like whales, elephants, and the great apes and probably man other animals.
We aren't special, we're just more capable.
>>8149228
>The result of all this scheme is a miserable, weird and hell of anxious 20 years old man. I'm slightly losing my interest in everything.
you should read Nietzsche more closely, particularly Zarathustra. Nietzsche recognizes the consequences of nihilism but ultimately seeks to overcome them, not ignore them. hence the midnight hour, the eternal return, so on. if you're interested in more of this idea, affirming and overcoming nihilism, I'd recommend Spinoza and Deleuze as well.
>>8153205
>Hitlergger
>making you less detached and depressed
lmao
>>8153508
But that high capability is the beginning of becoming something completely different. But it's not within the reach of current science.
>>8153508
No, this is honestly just a petty reductionist conception of the human identity that literally ignores every uniquely human aspect of our existence. Human culture and whale culture are not comparable outside of exterior mechanisms. We are clearly wholly distinct from all other living things on earth.
>>8149887
>Human beings a clearly wholey distinct from animals anon
>The oldest meme in existence.
Isn't it more isolating to just grasp at straws to figure out why we are fundamentally different from the beasts.
You evolved for tool use and imagination, get used it
>>8149496
danger and play is what women are and want [they want play = safe danger] and men want women, but only because women are the ultimate danger and play thing. This is nice, but you can reach a life beyond this.
once you understand that men are not meant to be as good hedonist as women, you first acknowledge the superiority of women at the hedonistic life (which is just called life by men and women) and you see the misery of hedonism, either the direct hedonism of the woman, or the nihilistic fantasy of the delayed hedonism [hedonism of the will] of the man [the one that men advocate for, the one about engaging yourself into challenges after challenges, seeking merit, pursuing your passions, in one word still clinging to entertainment (typically to attract women sooner or later) to better turn away from their impotency at the hedonistic life..] created by men once they get beat by women.
Once you see the game as well as the noneffective masculine life, you lose faith in hedonism. At this point, you either see the solution or not {Nietzsche did not see it, or rather he did not claim explicitly that he saw it]: you strive to do the exact opposite of hedonism (either the masculine one or the feminine one): first you stop being nihilistic, in accepting what you are (it is crucial to be sincere about the starting point], meaning a worm, and in stopping to analyze the past to get a better future (= the strategy of men, which remains inside hedonism (even though they claim that it is not, and in practice is is clearly not), but even more nihilistic than the feminine hedonism, once they are beaten by women] and in stopping to take what you desire, feel and think seriously [=the hedonism of the woman, and the fueling of this hedonism by men].
Women are wrong for having faith in what they desire, in thinking that this is relevant to ones life
they are a bit wrong to let men spend their life trying to serve women.
Men are wrong to try to play with women, which is just serving women
men are wrong, after being defeated, to be resentful towards women
men are wrong to think, after being defeated, that the solution is to be even more nihilistic than women in dwelling in hedonism of the will
The lack of efficacy of the masculine life leads to a narcissism (contrary to men), but without egotism (contrary to women), a more equanimous and benevolent stance towards what is desired, felt and thought. At this point, you stop looking at hedonism of the body [=the feminine hedonism], turn towards hedonism of the soul [what religious call it], spirit, consciousness [what buddhists call it] [=the hedonism of the mild ascetic, the hedonism that most men fail to see and the one that women love to think that they embody (women love to think that they are not as egotistic as they are, that they embody a humanist stance)] and then you understand that even this is doomed to be disappointing, so you refuse it until you stop caring about this one too.
>>8153710
>Human culture and whale culture are not comparable outside of exterior mechanisms
If whales had what we would consider a culture then yes, they would be comparable. They would demonstrate we aren't "wholly distinct" from other living beings.
What is comparable however is their capacity for care in their family units, emotions, feeling the need for food and sex, stress etc. We build entire societies around these things, we are just living in a more complex version of our ancestors we're living in.
Whats reductionist is compettly throwing out everything in the material world in the vague hopes of making you feel better better that you are human. By overemphasizing our thoughts and feelings as the valid ones and the world we create as somehow real. What a shitty religion Buddhism must be that you only have sympathy for other leaving beings because they might be people. Not because they are thinking, feeling, living creatures.
>>8153735
What the actual fuck
>>8153732
Anon, how do you not see that you're just dogmatically adhering to an overly simplistic understanding of the human experience? There is nothing about the human consciousness that is as simple as you want to make it out to be.
>>8153740
You're undervaluing the significance of distinctness of human thought though anon, by a massive degree. People like you always just seem to make it about some sense of hopelessness and worthlessness that you feel, then act like I'm just speaking from a stance of sentimentality. I'm not. I just recognize how absurd your conception of a solely material, mechanistic world is. You're blatantly just ignoring the extremely unique aspects of humanity that aren't seen in any other living thing while at the same time drawing this cursory similarities between us an animals as if that invalidates our clear distinctions
I know you don't realize this, but we also aren't living in a more complex world than the ancients. We're living in a uniquely ignorant and reduced world.
>>8153782
>Anon, how do you not see that you're just dogmatically adhering to an overly simplistic understanding of the human experience?
What do you think my simplistic understanding is?
>. I just recognize how absurd your conception of a solely material, mechanistic world is
No you aren't, you specifically pointed to animals and claimed they lack thought. That doesn't address material considerations at all
>You're blatantly just ignoring the extremely unique aspects of humanity
And you are committing the reverse of the sharpshooters fallacy
>>8149228
You might like the lecture by this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsoVhKo4UvQ
His wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Peterson
>>8153795
You understand the human identity only in terms of exterior material mechanistic functions. I don't see how you can disagree with me that the human experience is decidedly unique in regards to all other living things
>>8153710
No, you just want to believe we're special. We're just animals.
Don't mean we don't do incredible things.
>>8154689
We're clearly and undeniably wholly distinct from animals. The human consciousness isn't the same as the consciousness of animals. We have a lower, animalistic nature, sure, but we also have a higher nature beyond this that is differentiated from all else in existence
>>8155067
Not really. Dolphins, elephants, whales, possibly some crows and parrots as well as a few other apes have been shown to be self aware and conscious in the same way as we are.
>>8155076
No, the self awareness of those animals is nowhere near the same as human self awareness. Are you currently self aware how absurd it is that i have to tell you this? You realize that you have to blatantly ignore essentially all human expression to make the claim that an elephant recognizing it's own reflection puts it's consciousness self awareness at the same level as a human being?
>>8149790
No Patrick. Mayonnaise is not an Ubermensch.
>>8155090
You have no idea what they are aware of, the only difference between you and them is your fucking hubris. And that just makes you worse than whales.
>>8155152
Are you seriously at a point in your understanding of reality where you can't even admit that the human identity is significantly more complex and distinctly unique from all other living things on earth? Are you really unable to perceive the differences between ourselves and animals?
>>8149228
> reads Nietzsche
> still nihilist
??
Are you retarded
>>8149228
I think the logical consequence to nihilism is faith in a god.
>>8149476
Even without developing faith he still need to strife for something. He needs to actively adjust his life to what he wants to happen for him in the future, so... Isn't that faith in some way. When he still must put a goal out of his own imagination out for him? Where is the difference between calling oneself nihist and one being just generally lazy?
>>8149488
> that the only objective meaning of life that there could possibly be is enjoying the ride
I don't agree
But still I think that's how we humans must do it. Either one kills itsself or lives in constant denial which is not enjoyable and either ends in death, or change of thought.Or one clings to these simple, practical, temporary postulates.
When it comes to me, I feel the despair of meaninglessness in life, but when I get up in the morning, I can stand it, because I ...somewhat the same like you said... get the day done step by step, do things I think are cool, and do not apply everything to the grand scale all the time.
Existencial crisis is not solved though.
>>8149775
>>8149825
and that is it. We (unfortunately) live under the premise of having a human body and being human overall, also mentally. Sooner or later, one will bitterly realize, that if you want to do extreme philosophy you must, at first, be alive and stay alive. And therefore one must accasionally refrain from constant denial.
>>8155206
Are you seriously that dogmatic? What is the categorical difference? Point it out.
Be afraid of something.
>>8155753
You're literally just rejecting reality if you can't understand that the creation of civilization and the higher ordered capabilities of the human consciousness make us distinctly unique from animals. Do you honestly not understand that the cultural expression of humanity isn't the same as the way animals express themselves?
>>8155842
What's the difference? We use tools and make music, so do they.
Do you really think being able to make a skyscraper makes us categorically different? And early hominid tool use? And chimpanzee tool making?
It's just a matyer of degrees. Whales make music and have cultural evolution with one popular song becoming the one they all sing, just like humans.
Elephants mourn their loved ones,etc. All the fundamentals of the human condition exist elsewhere. It seems you're just zooming in on some of our technological abilities and this makes you think we are what, no longer animals, or different than all the others? Poop comes out of our asses, we eat food, we feel pain, we think, we love, many other species do too.
Other species play, make jokes, laugh, get sad, angry, wage war.
So whats the difference, can't you see we're essentially the same? Or is your worldview so tied to your ego that changing your mind about humans is scary?
>>8156193
We are the only ones in touch with the divine spark.
>>8156193
Do you really think being able to make a skyscraper makes us categorically different?
Also, ants tend to build more complex structures in proportion to their bodies and our bodies.
>>8149228
Religion.
Nietzsche saw it as the answer.
Though he over-estimated man.
He thought that our years of false religion which gave way to religious longings could empower us through said longing to forge a new world and overcome the bourgeois materialist values.
If you deny religion, then it is simple, you are objectively wrong.
If you deny this assertion, you only give it credence, you see, nihilism is an abyss, and any fighting you do in favor of it, you slip further and further in.
And you want to fall, you know you shouldn't, but you are weak so you surrender anyways.
Have courage, attain virtue, have faith.
Traits of the OVERMAN.
skepticism, cynicism, materialism, ire against oneself but an overwhelming apathy, relativism.
Traits of The Last Man.
Brothers, your epitaphs are being prepared
will you shatter your own graves, or will you succumb to the words written on them
if /lit/ was actually about real literature and not just self aggrandized impressionism then you would be right to look here.
However, however unfortunate it may be, you will find your best answers on /pol/, you can hate them, but you cant deny they struggle.
>>8156197
>*
Forgot the meme arrow at the start of the post
>>8156196
Not every human is.
>>8156202
Of course, I should've said that we're the only ones with the potential for it.
>>8149868
>You're an animal, you're happier when you do human animal things like move, love, hate, work.
If such was true then I wouldn't have an expiration date.
Do you enjoy looking at those shadows?
Those shackles must hurt when they grind against your neck.
Where do you think the light is from?
Escape the cave.
Man if finite in this world, and thus his purpose must be spiritual, must be beyond the material.
I implore you, deny material searching and criteria, look beyond yourself and beyond the world.
"Seek and ye shall find"
>>8156193
The higher ordered structures and super sensible meaning within what we create and within our expression. Human civilization is beyond it's physical structures.
>>8156215
There's nothing I hate more than when Christians appropriate Plato for their own ends
>>8156286
Sounds like word diarrhea. What higher order structures and super sensible meaning?
Surr, civilization is INCREDIBLE, and it there is nothing about us that is fundamentally different from the other apes for example. We're just a bit smarter and more capable, thus we can make space ships, but that doesn't really make us categorically different beings.
Our lived realities are still pretty similar.
>>8156300
You're displaying extreme cognitive dissonance in your assertion that there is no difference between human civilization and communities of apes. How can you even make this claim? Do you really not see any clear, distinct differences between the human identity and apes?
>>8149228
>reading Nietzsche
>I'm a nihilist
>reading Dostoyevsky
>I deny moral values
>>8156292
Because reconciliation is teh evilz, innit. Go back to being an edgelord that acts indignant from someone's interpretation of something simply because -- le feelz
I thought Fyodor hated nihilists
>How does one overcome nihilism?
Existentialism? Epicureanism? It doesn't really matter if the world has no objective purpose. Subjective values and personal goals still influence your emotional and psychological well-being, so you may as well apply them in whatever way can make you happy.
I don't think reading up on nihilistic philosophy can transform anyone into such a truly objective being that they're incapable of experiencing emotion anymore. You'd have to be a literal psychopath and have some propensity for diminished emotional capacity to begin with, or maybe undergo a childhood's worth of really shitty abuse and neglect.
>>8156320
You having a stroke or something?
>>8156331
Nah, just bored/seeing what can come of my shitposts
>>8156197
Ants don't have the autonomy and capacity for individual expression that humanity has within it's civilizations. Ants are neat, but they aren't as complex as humanity, nor does the structure of what they create invalidate the uniqueness of human civilization.
>>8156347
This is true. Their hivemind actions require no thought, just do. Many were born for certain specializations. I agree with both posters, but separating humans from the animals is absurd simply because of some reason like 'humans can make contextual sadboi mixtapes when they have a breakup'
>>8156357
>to expand on the specialization bit
Some ants were born with wings, others make pheromone trails the Seekers, etc. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to understand that we are still Being-in-the-world, regardless of Dasein.
>>8156357
Conflating animals with humanity to the point where you reject all uniquely human distinctions that we exhibit in comparison to animals is what's absurd. We have commonalities with with animals, but they are only exterior and cursory, things only related to the lowest aspects of our nature, they aren't what makes us uniquely human in all of existence.
>>8149468
Deep.
I mean it.
Embarrassing how easy it is to pull me out of depression.
>>8156384
It isn't embarrassing. What is significant in this life isn't measured in that way.
>>8149228
Read Marxists, faggot.
>>8156292
So you felt the need to tell me?
This isn't your blog. If you want attention, please it seek elsewhere.
>>8156324
Read "The closing of the American Mind"
>>8156394
Already did, now what?
>>8156453
Toss it out, its garbage.
It's better to read Nietzsche than Marx and its better to understand Nietzsche than to just read Nietzsche
>>8156483
Already did, now what?
>>8156200
The faith of the ubermensch is a faith with one prophet and one adherent.
>>8153982
>You understand the human identity only in terms of exterior material mechanistic functions
No i really didn't, you are just the one placing an overemphasis how humans are different but failing to see how they are similar. You have been repeating the same points ad nasueum for the last few days. Take this for example (assuming this is the same person)
>>8155067
>>8155090
>we are clearly distinct
Why?
>consciouses
But animals have consciousness
>No, we are clearly distinct
Again and again and again, followed up by accusations that other people are spooked or absurd or overly empirical. Just stop
>>8156487
stop asking for direction, you sound like a child. or a fascist.
>>8156315
There are clear distinctions between one chimpanzee and another as well, so what?
>>8156487
You choose stance on Nihilism.
Read 'the closing of the american mind'
>>8156489
no, the Overman has an authoritarian personality, he is not driven by his own desire but by outside forces greater than his own comprehension.
He is the greatest extent of himself, and with this, he access the greatest extent of existence.
His mind is the prophet himself an adherent, but of what and to what?
I know people despise conclusions because it insinuates things they find unacceptable, their bigotry towards truth blinds them. -truth is sand lies are mist, you will take both to eyes, but only one will let you continue to see-
Ideals are what drives the Overman, men can be bested, the Overman alone can not overcome himself, his submission is his greatest conquest.
For when he submits himself to The Good, The Truth, he conquers himself, he masters himself, he bests all that is within his realm by utilizing powers beyond his realm.
That is how he overcomes.
-Est Veritas-
>>8149228
I was just like you, OP. Miserable, weird, skeptical, finding no reason to care about anything, losing interest in everything, etc. And I, too, was reading stuff that tended to intensify my nihilism.
My advice is this: just keep reading. I won't point you to any particular ideology (though Catholic Christianity did it for me) because that wouldn't mean anything to you. Your change of sentiments, ideas, &c must come naturally from the stuff you read. Eventually you will read things that arouse new feelings and thoughts. Eventually the scope of your imagination will broaden. One book at a time, you will—I think—begin to think and feel more vigorously, and more nobly.
Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe reading alone can't do that. But it can't hurt to try, can it?starting over with the Greeks could help
>>8152812
https://www.ted.com/talks/matthieu_ricard_on_the_habits_of_happiness?language=en
there you go buddy. proven by science.
>>8156563
Anon, do you honestly not understand the difference between a human being and a chimpanzee?
>>8156731
Not him, but I think the point is that we have a direct unbroken chain of ancestors that links up with all other animals. The separation is an illusion which is visible only because of time.
>>8152812
How would you prove it by evidence?
It's like proving experience exists through evidence. Nibbana lies outside the reach of space and time, to say nothing of limited human science
>>8156731
It's not a categorical difference. They are people and their most essential properties are X,Y,Z, just like us.
Two chimpanzees are also very different from one another, two individuals. Just like a human being and a chimpanzee are also two individuals. But you think honor sapiens is special because it's slightly more intelligent, and over 200,000 years has managed to build cities and go to space.
Thats your argument, and it's weak, and you just keep repeating it but you have not convinced anyone of humans special status.
>>8149256
>read a book that awkwardly skirts around the issue of negative utility, take some shit-tier uppers just because its socially acceptable and do a few jumping jacks
This is life everybody.
>>8149267
because their brain wont allow them to an-hero
>20 years old
Shut up, kid. Finish your classes and don't fuck up your life now by being a crying retard.
>>8149468
So we should all commit suicide then?
>>8156772
Life is also the race against the clock to do stuff whole our bodies decay. And each generation consumes past generations, most animals eat other life to keep going. Life eats life.
The best thing we can do is to help reduce suffering. Like if someone is hungry feed them. Nothing is more meaningful than to remove that suffering and be the being that ensured that in that specific Spacetime, someone was there to do right. If anything is divine, that is it, what else is an angel if not a being with such power over others? Go and be an angel.
And that The New Sincerity you've all been looking for, that is a new valuation of values that I have come to accept without irony. I hope you join me in this most righteous and beautiful crusade against suffering.
Would the nihilists here destroy art? I can neither imagine myself willingfully, unnecessarily doing so nor conceiving of it as a "spook".
Does anyone else here just feel like life is beneath them? I am not really an exceptional person but I have come to terms with this simple truth. Why the hell would I prefer to dance away from entropy like a delusional twit for an arbitrary period of time when I could instead face my mortality and reach the asymptotic zero of death in which all vexations and vexation itself is nullified? If I commit suicide far from an act of self loathing, it will be an ultimate act of narcissistic self-love.
>>8156749
It really isn't an illusion. It's pretty distinct anon. I don't see how you find civilization to be an illusion.
>>8156758
It isn't a slight difference of intelleigence, we clearly exhibit a massive and unique existential understanding of our existence that is found in no other living thing. You're just thinking in petty reductionist terms. You have to outright deny so much of reality to think the way that you do.
>>8156788
you know what would really reduce suffering? Mitigating the proliferation of the consciousness capable of suffering in the first place
>>8156794
This is just an unjust sense of narcissistic arrogance on your part. It's kind of pathetic.
>>8156802
I owned up to narcissism. Just wait until we enter the 4gt quarter and I tell you that I am openly hypocritical. You're gonna be all like "what? oh shut, I can't beat this guy he's too postmodern for me". Chessmate douchebag.
>>8156802
>arrogance
At least I am man enough to admit entropy is a big guy 4me.
>>8156815
>man enough
You are not man enough for anything. You are being a big pussy
>>8156811
Did you own up to the patheticness of it though?
>>8156790
This is a blue board anon.
>>8156826
don't get hung up on my word choice. The point is I am not the arrogant one. What is arrogant is the secular man in the hospital riddled with cancer fighting for his life. What is he fighting for? to come back to this? What an idiot.
>>8156831
Yes sure, why wouldn't I?
>>8156788
>The best thing we can do is to help reduce suffering.
Then everybody should just kill themselves. You have no doubt heard this argument many times before, so why do you continue with "muh suffering"?
Things aren't as simple as you want them to be. Nobody knows what the "goal" is, but from personal experience, I can say that it has something to do with discovering and understanding a mechanism in the human body, then replicating and refining it. There is something very special in some types of living organisms, but it's very small in low-impact in their current forms.
>>8156925
more like special needs
>>8156925
>then everybody should just kill themselves
Correctomundo. you should have just ended your post there. History has been nothing but a tedious process of self-flagellation.
>>8156938
Suicide is always self-contradictory.
>>8156942
Here comes the obscurantist bullshit. Am I supposed to care? Fuck it, if suicide is self-contradictory call me Schrodinger's cat.
>>8156947
I'm saying that the "everyone should kill themselves" argument can only be made from the flawed "suffering is bad" position. If suicide to avoid it is your answer, then that means you have no answer to the question of why suffering should be avoided in the first place.
>>8156966
it necessitates that I don't have an argument as to why suffering is bad because I advocate suicide? That doesn't make sense. You take on a lesser quantity of suffering by exit-bagging yourself than living an entire life of work and mundane annoyances and dying of infirmities and probably cancer. Its a utilitarian evaluation. I think the idea that suffering is bad should be taken as a predicate. People can enjoy pain sure enough but when we think of "suffering" it seems to be the word for a state by which no good can come to the one experiencing it. If you prefer we can call that abstract concept the Jergenschlut or anything really.
>>8156986
All growth comes from suffering
>>8156986
I'm sure there's some silver bullet argument against utilitarianism out there, but I'm not well-read enough to know it, so I'll just say this:
The capacity for suffering is the result of natural selection, so self termination because of that capacity is a paradox; killing yourself because of something that exists to increase chance of survival is illogical.
suicide from philosophy is not dealt by the liberals, therefore is the most dangerous to the human rights, precisely because the perspective of the philosophical suicide lies outside of the doctrine of the human rights: this perspective says that human rights are nothing but conventions and makes the liberals standing before their contradictions: the one where they are not able to justify their authority, just like the liberals complained that kings were not able to justify their authority
[in fact, kings justify their authority by their lineage, which pisses off the liberals'; the liberals justify their authority poorly in saying that ''the people wants us, the liberals, to be in power''; the trick then is to carefully select what they call ''the people'']
the nice trick by the liberals is to obfuscate their authority into an implicit one, more compatible with their hatred of explicit authority [=tyrannies] : they claim thus that the human rights are natural, that any humans think that the human rights make sense [with the faith that they will be backed-up by their faith in what they call science] and anybody disagreeing on this is not a human, but an animal [=a reactionary].
so the suicide outside of depression is dangerous, because it shows that liberals cannot counter the lack of motivation to live. the liberals prefer to focus on suicide from pains: this one enables them to say that ''the human suffering'' must be answered by... science and faith in the human rights, in one word, the occidental humanist doctrine. pain/suffering is always the decisive motivation to get things form the society, in a liberal society.[as minorities, workers...]
>>8156788
>>The best thing we can do is to help reduce suffering. Like if someone is hungry feed them.
exactly. I suffer because I do not have a ferrari. give me a ferrari.
>>8156383
"""Commomalities""" It's called being homo sapien, which is all too mammal, you gaylord
>>8149228
nothing you read will enlighten you.
>I see no point of spending time caring about life choices such as college courses, or a vague definition of success for instance.
how nice. drop out and work a couple of shitty, mind-numbing jobs. after a year or two and realizing that the rest of your life can be like this you will care about "success" and will probably have something of an idea of what that means to you, and will have started working on some goals.
you honestly just sound bored and spoiled
>>8157007
its not a survival strategy. If there is anything that separates us from other organisms its the ability to transcend and subvert genetic programming. Maybe it even works as a teleological narrative, for the whole species to come to the conclusion it needs to negate its own existence for its own good. At least it seems more complete than building a space elevator.
This is a bit off-topic from nihilism, but for me The Stranger by Albert Camus wasn't convincing of his 'absurdism' philosophy. So the central idea of The Stranger is that 'we all die and there's no God so our lives are meaningless and there's no such thing as rational morality'. But how does the fact that we all die & and that there's no God go on to prove that our lives are meaningless & and that there's no rational morality? What if I were to SIMPLY point out the fact that, although we do die at some point, we still get to live? From the notion that we do live, I could argue that there is some possibility of us transcending the absurdity of life - by creating our own 'meanings' of our lives. Also, we are live - and we don't want to die. So, Meursalt's action of killing the action, I could argue, is immoral because it interferes with the Arab's inclination to live.
It's just that I'm not convinced by The Stranger straightaway - I don't see any logical explanation for Camus' absurd conclusions. I tried to look up some explanations but all I see is redditors praising the novel by quoting edgy scenes. Help
>>8156998
okay, does all growth come from the jergenschlut though? Nobody becomes stronger after battling cancer. That's another romantic delusion everyone tells themselves to imagine some quantity of nebulous equity in even the most compromising situation.
>>8157056
That doesn't provide an alternate justification for why suffering is to be avoided. Mine is still the only justification in the thread.
>>8156799
Go ahead and prove they lack that insight. Go ahead.
Protip : you cant, and by your own logoc, literal homo sapiens from 200,000 years ago would also qualify as fundamentally different from humans today. If that's your belief, then I can at least see your framework, but it aimpy means the only difference is advanced culture.
>>8156801
Thats no fun, there's also the converse of maximizing potential.
>>8156925
See above, and we're also programmed against it. I'd rather see humanity become a peaceful space faring communism like Star Trek.
>>8157029
No, you suffer because you think you need a Ferrari to be happy.
>>8157031
Hello Edgelord Maximus.
>>8149228
Have you ever read the Republic by Plato or the Bhagavad Gita? There's an interesting clause in both works about delving into philosophy or a religious text with no real frame of reference and how the danger is that it begins to reaffirm everything you already know/ want to believe, whereas actual study and knowledge of the tradition gives new, creative and healthy ideas to the reader and expands his mind.
My point is is that it sounds like you wanted to be a nihilist and heard Nietzsche was one with no knowledge of what he's talking about. Because Nietzsche isn't a nihilist, Nietzsche takes multiple firm stances against nihilism, there is no way you could read his work closely in any capacity and believe this. Read Dosto and you're a nihilist who denies moral values and the meaning of life itself? Or Nietzsche for that matter. None of these people are nihilists, you just want to reaffirm a pointlessness that you alone see in the world. Haven't read Bauman but I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same scenario.
>>8149228
who gives a fuckk
>>8157578
this exactly, I'm so sick of people claiming to be nihilists on the basis of Nietzsche's writing.
>>8157031
Let's say I understand this. Where do I get my motivation to do anything from then?
>>8149476
>watch rick and morty
by doing this, you would also be embracing your nihilism, but then again, a true nihilist wouldnt label himself. ITS A GREAT SHOW THO.
>>8157578
Nietzsche is a nihilist in that he believes there is no inherent universal order to things (this goes back to Heraclitus) but he says that anyone who is contented by that is an idiot that deserves the highest contempt. The nihilists to him are the worst of all groups he goes after. To live is to strive for meaning and to uncover it. People who find meaning in an 'afterlife' are basically nihilists, he disliked Christianity above all else because it affirmed nihilism and the worthlessness of this world rather than questioning it which is why he formulates the eternal recurrence as a solution to the philosophical-religious problem of the afterlife, since it will cause people to place all value on this life rather than the next one.
>>8157059
Camus is literally rebbit the philosopher.
>>8157707
You over estimate what science offers in this regard
>>8152767
You don't need motivation, you need discipline.
>>8149228
Will
>>8149790
No, horseradish is not an Ubermensch either.
>>8149228
Reading Nietzsche makes you a nihilist. Then you read it again and he makes you overcome your nihilism.
Dostoevsky is the only author that allowed me to "get" christianity and Christ's ethics
Read Mind is a Myth so you can understand why pic related is the most profound thing ever.
>>8153735
so how do you escape?
>>8149228
Lucretius - De Rerum Natura
One of my professors was crazy about this book, the Latin is beautiful and the history of this book makes it worth investigating.
Nietzsche isn't about depression, its about rejecting the current moral status of neo-platonic society. I think Nietzche's whole spiel is to reverse the cultural morality that western religion constructed for itself to keep the weak in power. Lucretius also chastises religion, but its not nihilistic, its heretical as hell, but its definitely agnostic. He believes in what he see's, and uses it to deduce the invisible, because at every level matter is similar.
I don't know if thats a great interpretation, but pick up Englerts translation of On the nature of things, look in the contents for a subject you are interested in, read and learn.
Also: Deleuze, Bataille, Marx and anything about Quantum physics are good follow ups. Maybe you'll see Nietzsche differently.
>>8149250
you mean how do they read those authors and not come out a nihilist?
>>8153920
This guy is awesome. I've been watching his lectures for a week or so
>>8159584
Stuff like that is the basic philosophy of ESP.
>>8153735
I asked for the meaning of the Danger and Play quote once in context of someone using it to describe nihilism, and got this reply. It's very good in that context, but some 14 year olds who can't even understand it are using it as copypasta.
>>8149228
All of this trash goes out the window when you are homeless and you didnt prepare yourself to have a future where you have the stability to lounge and think about such things. I hope you have an income
>>8149228
Camus, Kierkegaard or Buddhism which is best and worked for me much better than the first two.
>>8160916
You don't really have to be homeless, you just have to be from a shitty country that doesn't have any social support network and the economy is such that even if you jump through all the hoops you need to find a job, having it still doesn't provide for a minimally decent life.
>>8149228
watch Jordan Peterson's existentialism talk on youtube
>>8156790
the modern incarnation of Bosch
I don't get it, could someone explain?
One (e.g. OP) doesn't like feelomg miserable and feels likes it's a result from this nihilism.
Feom this, to me, it directly follows that one should do something productive to avoid the pain, even if it's concious distraction.
Unless OP thinks nothing in life brings fun, there is always something to do. And the harder some sort of fun is to optain, the easier you can get yourself spooked and then forget your pain. It sure is better than being miserable, so there you go.
>>8149228
Bro, as far as i think, Dostoyevsky was pretty much anti-nihilistic. Crime and Punishment was literally the uberman in action, look where it took him.
We're humans brah, don't deny it, that's where nihilism comes from.
Oh and avoiding political institutes and moral values isn't nihilism, it's common sense. Ruining your life over an ideology is just plain stupid though.
Get a grip brah
>The mystery of life isn't a problem to solve, but a reality to experience.
- Kirkegaard.
>>8162413
>Crime and Punishment was literally the uberman in action, look where it took him.
Only because he was a poorfag, if he was born into better circumstances he'd be King George the Fifth or whoever the fuck.
>>8149228
Just realize that you are a hypocrite. You yourself are making yourself ironically miserable off a philosophy that says that political/moral concepts have no meaning. If they have no meaning, then why are you sad about it? Unless of course it is a lie that they have no meaning and the source of your sadness is rather the dissonance in your head trying to make contradictory logic logical.
Life has meaning, life is beautiful and life is short. Don't waste your time listening to some shithead loser who doesn't give a fuck about you or anything. Just live life
