Islam
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You are currently reading a thread in /lit/ - Literature
Look I have no idea at all about it, I'm just here For reading some opinions about Islam.
I'll just start with a couple questions
>Is it theologically more perfect or it represents an improvement in front of the Christianity of the 7th century?
>Is it a totalitarian religion/cult? Why?
>Is islam and particularly Sunni islam a religion of peace?
>tell me about sufism that shit seems interesting
>>8132305
1. It's a downgrade to theology as a whole. More warlike and advocating a clear intolerance of other faiths, and have been a source of strife ever since their inception.
2. It has no real clerical hierarchy like Catholics, but in terms of secular power it is really totalitarian. See The Caliph throughout the Middle ages.
3. No. Read the Koran. They make mention of slaying Infidels, burning them, and cutting off the hands of theives. Not to mention stoning gays.
4. It's another branch of Islam. I don't know why a quick Google or Wiki look can't help you.
>>8132305
1 no
2 yes
3 no
4 no
Islam is the mirror image of Christianity, much more so than even Phariseeism.
Phariseeism was merely hypocrisy and empty legalism focused on this world alone. When Rabbinical Talmudic "Judaism" mutated from this poison base in the Middle Ages, it created a kind of amoral tribal sociopathy, bent on infiltrating and destroying host societies. You can't accuse "Jews" of hypocrisy because they have no morality, not even legalism, just pure materialism.
Satan decided to take the opposite approach for the other prong of his attack on Christendom. Islam serves the devil as an attack on Christianity from without. Instead of a subversive subculture, Islam was designed to mobilize entire societies against Christians. Like Talmudism, there is no hypocrisy in Islam because Muslims have no inner spiritual life or morality, but their amorality is constructed in such a way that all of their malice is directed towards Christians. It's like the difference between high-functioning sociopaths (Muslims) who protect their own but prey on those they consider outsiders, and low-functioning sociopaths ("Jews") who are motivated purely by individual evil without any real concept of community.
When Satan was whispering the Koran in Muhammed's ear, he made sure to pervert and corrupt and deny every Christian doctrine possible. The false god of Islam, Allah, is a Bedouin moon demon elevated to monotheist status. This avatar of Lucifer serves as a central idol in mockery of the Triune God of Christianity. Islam truly is the denial and inversion of Christianity.
>>8132403
The Church's account of the rise of Christianity is not accepted by scholars, anon.
>>8132305
Quran=manual for white genocide
I piss on Quran
>>8132426
(((scholars)))
>>8132403
It's beautiful.
Look upon his works and tremble, for you now know the Red Pilled individual in all his glory.
>>8132457
>Pissing all over the structures of knowledge that exist in a certain field makes me smart
>>8132305
1) Islam likes to promote itself as the final revelation which of course implies this is the definitive Abrahamic religion.
2) Of course it is. Islam is extremely controlling. It's not like Christianity where you have the basics you have to stick to in order to be a good Christian. Islam has rules for everything. It isn't only a religion but an ideology, a way of life. Did you know there are even rules for how you go to the bathroom in Islam? It's true. Plus you add in the restrictive behaviours and the necessity of praying 5 times a day... it is extremely controlling.
3) No obviously fucking not.
4) Don't care. Sunni Islam is the main brand. They don't like each other much.
Sufism isn't another form of Islam like Sunni and Shia, it's just the mystical aspect Islam. You can be both a Sunni and a Sufi. A Sufi will normally be a member of a Tariqa - an order of Sufis which practices mysticism in a specific way. The whirling dervishes are part of the Mevlevi Order, the Tariqa founded by Rumi. The fundamental idea of Sufism is unity with God, destroying the egotistical ideas of self, purifying it, a bit like Buddhist enlightenment.
Sufi are regularly targeted in attacks, particularly in Pakistan. They twirl around, which is seen as dancing by fundamentalists. they also celebrate around graves of saints, which is seen as idol worship. They also celebrate what they think is Muhammads birthday, which is also considered idol worship by the fundamentalists.
I think they also beat on drums, which is frowned upon by the radicals.
>>8132305
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
Not a really neutral source but still contains some facts and interesting information
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Fabricated_Hadith
wikiislam isn't without bias, however this particular page is a good reference. you will often hear moderate muslims and non-muslims quoting fabricated hadith. especially the one about the ink of the scholar.
http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http://www.thereligionislam.com/islamicideology/scienceofhadith.htm&date=2011-11-20
http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/books/100FabricatedHadith.pdf&date=2011-11-20
>>8132305
>Is it theologically more perfect or it represents an improvement in front of the Christianity of the 7th century?
it's on par, I'd say. Although some spiritual writings are really amazing (Al-Ghazâlî, Ibn Arabi)
>Is it a totalitarian religion/cult? Why?
yeah it's very strict, but also laxist on some points.
>Is islam and particularly Sunni islam a religion of peace?
not really, but the aggressive part is very small on the whole Quran.
>tell me about sufism that shit seems interesting
basically a more charismatic Islam, based on search of spirituality. I think it's pretty much looking over the wall of basic obediance, but without crossing it. It's a very interesting and fascinating part of Islam that I still cannot fully comprehend
sorry if my answers are not really clear
Learn to differenciate the religion, its texts, its followers (who and when and why), and extremists.
Don't equate religion to socioeconomic or environmental pressures.
there
>>8133319
>not really, but the aggressive part is very small on the whole Quran.
but it's an important part. fighting and being killed in the cause of Allah is considered one of the best, if not the best thing you can do in the eyes of Allah. this is made clear in the Quran and further explained in the Hadith.
>>8133339
most muslims don't follow that rule tho. They're not all part of a hivemind just waiting to turn on christians because allah said so.
Recognize how the violent trends of Islam are consistently reflected in its followers, including moderates
Examine Pew research polls of Muslim opinions on terrorism and violence, especially among those who reside in Western countries
Learn to see through apologists who cite the historical technological, economic, and military inferiority of Muslim nations as an excuse for the immorality of their imperialist cult
>>8133339
some dogmas just turned irrelevant in current society if you know what I mean. but acting good and treating the stranger as your brother has always been an important part of islam and it will stay so
Quran says to treat the prisoners with the same comfort as you treat yourself. Same food, same quality of life, and if it's the prisoner or you, the Quran says he deserves it more. is it still relevant? They're cutting heads for fun in orient
Islam is legitimately a great religion, just that the arabs (mostly sunnis) ruined it
>>8133327
>Learn to differenciate the religion, its texts, its followers (who and when and why), and extremists.
Because Mohammed was in no way a warrior who decided to chop off the heads of everyone who didn't agree with him, right? This happened exactly like that, countless times durings his raids. There's no differentiating when he's the founder of that religion.
>>8133402
Is Mohammed an historical figure?
Jesus Christ this thread is horrible.
>>8132305
1. Considering orthodox Christology is the most autistic, (by their own admission) incomprehensible, convoluted bullshit ever devised by man, yes, definitely.
2. No, because Islam isn't a political system. In Islam there is not and never has been a central authority that can impose itself on the community of believers, and that is by its own design. The Caliphate theoretically could control people via totalitarianism but that is an exercise of secular power, and historically (up to around the middle 20th century) the top insult laid against Caliphs and Muslims in general by Westerners was that they were hedonists and entirely too liberal. "Totalitarianism" is a meme accusation taken seriously by people that think 1984 was good lit.
3. It's not a "religion of ___" at all. There is no "religion of peace". It's just a religion like all the others.
4. Sufism is mystical practice of Islam, not a branch or sect but an activity taken up by Muslims. Read "the Garden of Truth" by Hossein Nasr and pic related, which obviously tackles your bigger question.
Pic related is a very good book.
>>8133422
oh, look, agood post
>>8133412
Yes.
>>8133402
>Because Mohammed was in no way a warrior
Actually a merchant forced to become a generalissimo.
>who decided to chop off the heads of everyone who didn't agree with him, right? This happened exactly like that, countless times durings his raids.
1) The famous raids carried out by the Medinans that were in response to the facts that the Meccan Muslims were forced into exile by the polytheists, who in the act stole all of their belongings and property the Muslims were forced to leave behind. Raids that were famous because the people that were raided lived to tell the tale.
2) People disagreed with him all the time and didn't die because of it. He let multiple tribe-villages that actually betrayed him after swearing oaths of allegiance live despite having ever right to kill them.
>>8133461
This is literally shitposting.
>>8132305
Yes
Yes
No
It's not interesting
>>8132329
Clearly shown here is a product of /pol/, someone who has never studied history.
>[Islam advocates] a clear intolerance of other faiths
Interesting. If you were to ask a Jew during the period of Moorish Spain whether the Umayyads were unaccepting of their faith or not, I think you might get a different answer. In fact, the Jews prospered under Islamic rule, as compared to both under the Catholics and the Visigoths. But since /pol/tards hate Jews, I suppose you think that's a negative mark.
> [Islam and the Caliphates are/were] really totalitarian
Alright, name me some non-totalitarian states before the Enlightenment. No, Athens doesn't count, they profited majorly off the slave trade.
>Read the Koran. They make mention of slaying Infidels, burning them, and cutting off the hands of theives. Not to mention stoning gays
Saying something =/= Doing something. You and the Islamic State should both learn this sometime. Research the Cairo Genizah, non-Catholic Christians and Jews were treated better under the Islamic Caliphates than they were under the Catholic Kingdoms of Europe.
Also, you would have never had a Western Renaissance had it not been for the University of Al Quaraouiyine in Morocco, the House of Wisdom in Baghdad, or Al-Azhar University in Cairo. Those institutions saved the majority of classical Greek and Roman knowledge while Western Europe was a cultural shithole.
Is Christianity a religion of peace? Or are these words post 9/11 memespeak?
>>8132305
>Is it theologically more perfect or it represents an improvement in front of the Christianity of the 7th century?
Look at all the Muslim countries. Hardly can be called successful (regarding happiness index, development index, etc).
>Is it a totalitarian religion/cult? Why?
Yes. Blind following of its founder, questions undesired, pretty narrow-minded, pretty hostile towards other philosophical concepts and science.
>Is islam and particularly Sunni islam a religion of peace?
Obviously not. Violence is justified, even requested, many times in the quran.
>tell me about sufism that shit seems interesting
Interesting in the sense of insane
>>8133523
It was literally made up by one of George W Bush's speechwriters, probably in a disingenuous attempt to get Americans pumped up for the Iraq fiasco
>>8133546
wew
>>8133546
come on maine at least read the thread before posting
>>8133546
Good post
Abrahamic religions are UnGood.
>tfw someone's going to take the bait
>>8133560
I didn't only read it, I even quoted it.
At least, come up with reasonable arguments if you don't like my opinion.
>>8132305
>Is it theologically more perfect or it represents an improvement in front of the Christianity of the 7th century?
The theology of both is a mess but that's not such a bad thing. If theology was straightforward or perfect in Christianity would we have had the reformation for example
People forget that the Ottomans marched on Vienna with over 100,000 men in 1683. William Penn established Pennsylvania in 1683. That's not ancient history, especially considering the 1000 years of warfare between Christendom and Islam that preceded it.
The West has decided on Eternal Kumbaya (even though we killed tens of millions 70 years ago, followed by 40 years of potential for global nuclear holocaust). Unfortunately, everyone else in the world hasn't agreed to those terms.
>>8133635
You make it sound like both christians and muslims were unified and going to war against each other only because of their religion. Aren't you? That's a massive oversimplification.
>>8133635
What about the legacy of the Cold War? The collapse of the Ottoman Empire following WWI? Our greatest Ally Israel? Failure of pan-Arab nationalism? Shia/Sunni divide? Iraq I and II? The fact that Saudi Arabia is both a top U.S. Ally and the driving force behind the spread of Salafism? Turkey?
Your simplistic narrative of eternal crusade between Le glorious white Christian Army and Le evil forces of Islam is only sustainable if you are completely ignorant about middle eastern history
>>8133648
True, a number of times Protestants allied with Ottomans and other Muslims to counter the Catholic hordes trying to murder them. Pic related, a common Dutch phrase at the time: Liever Turks dan Paaps, Rather Turkish than Papist
>>8133436
>This is /lit/, leave this pop tinfoil shit at the door. Scholarly works only.
check the other 2 links i posted
>>8132305
>Is it theologically more perfect or it represents an improvement in front of the Christianity of the 7th century?
Yes. It doesn't have the whole "we're totally monotheists guys!" that Christianity has.
>Is it a totalitarian religion/cult? Why?
Depends. It's all about submission to God but you can expect that from all Abrahamic religions.
>Is islam and particularly Sunni islam a religion of peace?
Religion of peace is a meme.
>tell me about sufism that shit seems interesting
They're less legalistic and more spiritual and shit.
Islam is theologically fucking dead compared to Christianity. It never separated faith from state, so it becomes a bureaucratized shitshow 99 times out of 100. The few interesting branches of Islam that exist are weird-ass Traditionalist semi-mystic philosophy guys who are more in the secular tradition anyway.
It absolutely is a totalitarian religion in the vast majority of its manifestations, because it never separated faith and state. Faith isn't the "calling" of life, it isn't the purpose of life, it isn't the backdrop of life. It IS life, down to the daily minutiae. The vast majority of serious Christian thought since the Reformation has been more concerned with philosophy and spiritual seeking than bureaucratic issues of doctrine. Since the Middle Ages, Islam has mostly been concerned with fiqh, Islamic law. Regulating daily life. It is the epitome of totalitarianism. It is meant to pervade every moment of your existence.
On whether Islam is a "religion of peace," this question relates to an important point that also applies to everything I just wrote: Religions don't determine societies, and if they do, it's in more subtle and complex ways than doctrine determining everything. There have been totalitarian Christian societies and libertine manifestations of Islam, warlike Buddhists and probably pacifist Sikhs or something. But the CULTURE of "Islamic civilisation," for the most part, is a culture of violence, us-vs.-them, etc. Not really without cause - whatever made Europe become "modern," it didn't happen in the rest of the world, and certainly not the Muslim world. And then the Muslim world got colonised, shit on, and had its sense of self destroyed by superior European civilisation. But even the Islamic world has its Singapores and Hong Kongs.
People who say Islamic civilisation doesn't have serious, serious problems are in denial. People who say it's because of a book they can't even agree on interpreting are reductivist retards. If you want to play the European exceptionalism card, then focus on how something fundamentally changed in Europe in the Early Modern period that made it become "modern," and how that didn't elsewhere.
Sufism is a lot less interesting once you realise it's part of a huge continuum of mystical traditions. Once again, Western ones are generally better, and more philosophically fleshed out. The really interesting Sufis tend to be those weird traditionalists. For the vast majority of "Sufis," it's just a folk religion, like modern Taoism being mostly about grinding up deer cocks to make you immortal, or modern Buddhism being mostly just ancestor worship except there's also a fat guy in the room.
Islam is more 'logical' than Christianity, but that's a weakness of the religion, not a strength.
Why should God be wholly logical to humans? God is God. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and everlasting. God surpasses humanity to an absurd degree. God should be rational, to some extent. When God explains his reasoning (as he does in the Bible) you should be able to follow it. But God should not be wholly logical to humans. We should not look at God's actions and say "Yeah, I'd do that," or at least we shouldn't all the time. God is totally and completely beyond us.
I'd argue that if we're talking about a 'real' religion, a religion actually created by God himself, it would be like Christianity. It would be like Christianity insofar as Christianity runs contrary to natural human behavior. Christianity glorifies weakness. Christianity exalts the poor and the widows. Christianity says that the last will be first and the first will be last.
Christianity is nothing like human understanding, but why should God's ways be like human ways?
>>8134296
>It never separated faith from state, so it becomes a bureaucratized shitshow 99 times out of 100.
LMAO
Confirmed for not knowing shit.
>>8133390
>some dogmas just turned irrelevant in current society
into the trash it goes
>>8135733
Pretty common thesis
http://fortnightlyreview.co.uk/2012/11/invention-15/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Macfarlane
>>8132305
>Is it theologically more perfect or it represents an improvement in front of the Christianity of the 7th century?
No. It's more similar to the Jewish structure, as it is more concerned with the social construct. Ignoring the theology, it had similar motivations as early Christianity, as it was an effective tool to unite the Arabs. While the caliphate is not explicitely required (at least in the Quran itself), it isn't surprising that many Muslim schools of thought reach that conclusion to this day. Personally I think that has a lot to do with the long standing tradition of considering the Hadith' as effectively equal to the Quran. And most of todays issues in Islamic culture stem from that very point, imho.
>Is it a totalitarian religion/cult? Why?
First of all, it is a Jewish cult, just like Christianity.
And as with any other Abrahamic religions, it comes from a very... socially involved tradition. So it absolutely can be. But it doesn't have to be.
>Is islam and particularly Sunni islam a religion of peace?
Yes and no. I think the biggest devide is between pure scholars and politically motivated "scholars". i.e.: Last year at a huge conference in Morocco, the Marrakesh Declaration was issued. Scholars of over 100 nations came together and essentially re-confirmed religious freedome in a "Muslim led" nation, mostly based on the Charta of Medina. But that didn't exactly have any real consequences in Islam in practice, much less in the non-secular nations.
But I think it is important to point out, that even madmen like IS are forced to formulate tin foil hat conspiracy theories of secret anti-muslim unions, to be able to justify their "jihad" (a term with very different interpretation, by the by). For all intents and purposes, a Muslim war must allways be a defensive one. So as you see, it's a bit more complicated than simply "a religion of war OR peace". It's a religion and war is a concept engrained in it. On first glance this is a bad thing. On second glance it is in a "good way". On third glance it is a freaking religion, so you just know how easy it is for chuckleheads like the IS to warp that shit however they like.
To us it seems retarded, because culturally we have a history of facing and overcoming this issue. Muslim cultures have been relatively stable up until recent history. So they just now have to learn to check themselves and "self-domestication". for lack of a better term.
>tell me about sufism that shit seems interesting
It's just Muslim mysticism/esoterics/freaking hippies. Culturally they have been most widespread among Persians. If you start looking into Persian culture, it becomes quite clear why.
But I'd say it's quite removed from what you would commonly call "Islam". It's pretty much the Muslim version of "I'm, like, spiritual but not religious, you know?". Don't get me wrong. Sufi thought is interesting and all. But it has little relevance to the bigger issues Islam faces today, imho.
>>8135854
>It's just Muslim mysticism/esoterics/freaking hippies. Culturally they have been most widespread among Persians. If you start looking into Persian culture, it becomes quite clear why.
But I'd say it's quite removed from what you would commonly call "Islam". It's pretty much the Muslim version of "I'm, like, spiritual but not religious, you know?". Don't get me wrong. Sufi thought is interesting and all. But it has little relevance to the bigger issues Islam faces today, imho.
This isn't right. Sufis trace their lineages back to the Prophet because they actually have been around for as long as Islam has been around. In most cases, especially in South Asia but also East Europe, traveling Sufis were the first Muslims to reach foreign lands and proselytize, and it's nearly impossible to find any significant figure of Islam from its inception to modern times that wasn't a Sufi, since Sufism is so deeply tied to Islam and Muslim culture. It's only until very recently, 20th century recent, that Sufis have been divided from Muslim culture, a phenomenon that's traceable to the rise of nationalism and secularism; Turkey is probably the best example, consider that an essential part of Ataturk's consolidation of power was massacring Sufis and forcing all Sufi tekkes to go underground. Sufism's ubiquity is exactly why they're primary targets for the Wahhabi/Salafist reactionaries from the Saudi regime to ISIS.
>>8136079
Doesn't change the fact that the Sunni and Shia have been the main schools of thought throughout history, with exceptions popping up here and there. Granted, this is mainly from a political perspective, but imho that is all that really matters.
I am not aware of any significant mass of Sufi people. Important Sufi scholars and cultural figures heavily influenced by it? Sure. Shit, even European artists and authors have been influenced by them. But an entire culture which could be described as Sufi? I can't think of any. By some stretch maybe periods in Persian/Iranian history.
Please tell me if I'm wrong. I wouldn't pretend to be an expert.
>>8132305
I see a lot of people here comparing Islam to Judaism (in its monotheism) or Christianity (in it being an "offshoot" of Judaism).
This is wrong.
Islam, while it appears at first glance to be younger than Christianity and Judaism, actually predates both religions.
Muhammad is merely the final prophet of Islam, not the first or founding prophet. Islam's history extends all the way from Adam to Muhammad, and the initial Abrahamic monotheism and faith in and submission to God predates Judaism or Christianity, which corrupted the initial messages of God.
Judaism makes the mistake of ethnocentrism and racism. They have called themselves the Chosen People, and have given borders to God. They have given priority to the nation-state (the Holy Land) and have drowned themselves in ritualism and meaningless ceremony.
Christianity has anthropomorphized God, just as the Jews. But they are not satisfied with attributing paternal qualities to an infinite being. Christians take it a step further, creating a cosmic family of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Catholics will also add Mary in there, and have prayers for Saints and apostles). They make the mistake of believing anyone can take responsibility for the sins of others and putting a human man along with God.
>>8136359
Bringing up Sunni and Shi'i split illustrates the point, as Shi'is and Sunnis both practice Sufism. Sufism never has been and never will be a "branch" of Islam, but a phenomenon within Islam itself. Not every Muslim is a member of a tariqa but all Muslims since the beginning have been in contact with Sufis and its practices: you haven't heard of any significant mass of Sufi people because it's never really been anything special to everyday persons. (That being said, there are populations that have been/are very significantly tied to Sufism, in Anatolia, China, India, and Chechnya for example.) The only people that have ever made hardline divisions between Sufism and Islam have been what you might call legalist scholars.
>>8136421
The Quran is uncreated and only the descendents of Ali have a divinely mandated right to guide the Dar al-Islam.
>>8136464
>Bringing up Sunni and Shi'i split illustrates the point, as Shi'is and Sunnis both practice Sufism.
u wot m8?
The split is because they couldn't decide on who the new caliph should be and then they started disagreeing on their Hadiths. And now it's about who are "real Muslims".
If they were Sufi, they would acknowledge the difference of oppinion and be done with it. They don't. They see themselves as utterly different factions and to this day are on the brink of war and genocide.
And this isn't exactly just a political thing.
European bureaucrats were dumb enough to put Sunni and Shi'it refugees in the same camps. How do you think that turned out?
Shit, the entire Syrian regime is essentially based on this conflict.
>>8136503
You misunderstand, the point is that sufism isn't a sect with its own ideology. Sunnis, Shiis, Ibadis, all can and do practice Sufism, while remaining Sunni, etc.
>[Sunni and Shii divide] exactly just a political thing.
It's 100% political. First of all, because the question of who leads the Umma was an entirely secular question and have nothing to do with religious doctrine or practice. Second of all, the same communities of Shia and Sunni literally didn't have these conflicts until the American war machine created the War Against the Middle East. It's just a symptom of the chaos that has been unleashed and more accurately tribalism than a religious conflict.
>>8136705
>You misunderstand, the point is that sufism isn't a sect with its own ideology. Sunnis, Shiis, Ibadis, all can and do practice Sufism, while remaining Sunni, etc.
But that is entirely a Sufi idea. It's like saying a Catholic can also be a Buddhist while remaining Catholic. That is technically true, but has nothing to do with the definition of Catholicism but rather with the nature of Buddhism.
Which is the reason why I said Sufism if pretty much just the Muslim version of "I'm, like, spiritual but not religious."
The point being that there are Sunni and Shi'it who would disagree with you. The fact that they can do that, means Sufism is not as related to every school of thought as you make it out to be.
The only way I could see that happening, is if you were to be VERY liberal with the definition and use of ijtihad. But even then it would be valid to say that a "Sufi Sunni" is more like a "Sufi Quranist" than a Sunni. Heck, they might be even more like Babism.
>Second of all, the same communities of Shia and Sunni literally didn't have these conflicts until the American war machine created the War Against the Middle East.
I'll give you that involvement from the West have certainly propagated these conflicts, but they have existed beforehand. The Baath-party being just one example.
I am quite certain, that even without foreign involvement and the mere existence of Israel, there would have been war sooner or later.
>>8136769
>The point being that there are Sunni and Shi'it who would disagree with you. The fact that they can do that, means Sufism is not as related to every school of thought as you make it out to be.
1) That doesn't follow.
2) It's not a matter of being compatible with every "school of thought", it's a matter of being compatible with Islam, which it is given that it existed before any maddhabs even existed.
>>8135733
fuck off ahmed
>>8133487
"treated better" if they pay jizya ofc :^) otherwise if we cant extort you its time for a stoning
>>8136887
>It's not a matter of being compatible with every "school of thought", it's a matter of being compatible with Islam,
And that is literally your opinion.
Today you would be hard pressed to find a whole bunch of scholars of whatever madhhab who seriously argue that Islam can be improved upon by LESS doctrine. And that has arguably always been the case. And to them, their specific doctrine embodies "true Islam" more than others.
You disagreeing with them, changes nothing in the definition of what they believe.
And a large majority of them would point at you (assuming you are a Sufi) and say that you are no true Muslim or at least don't act like one.
You may be right on the day when two Caliph share a drink together. Until then I will have to view Sufism as a quite irrelevant form of Islam that some of the young people like to practice. (Mainly because living Halal is a drag.)
>>8136918
I think I would rather pay a jizya than be put at the end of the sword and told to convert or die by the Catholics.
Daily reminder that if you disagree with, or are against, Islam: you can fuck off to /pol/ and never come to /lit/ again.
Sorry hun. Mwah.
>>8137827
Islam teaches that it isn't necessary. Therefore it objectively creates more harm than good.
Fite me.
>>8137827
>Daily reminder that if you disagree with, or are against, Islam: you can fuck off to /pol/ and never come to /lit/ again.
why
Muslim here! Feel free to ask me anything!
>>8137827
go back to tumblr
>>8137987
What's the penalty for apostasy?
>>8138011
a slap on the wrist.
>>8138030
Oh Anon. You can't slap the wrist of someone who has been dug into the ground up to his neck. Silly you.
>>8138010
It means you can deny or lie about your faith and commit blasphemy if you fear persecution. A lot of people seem to believe that Muslims who advocate peace are merely practising taqiyya (liars, ect.).
>>8138011
It quite honestly depends on your family/country and background. Committing apostasy in most Muslim countries could lead to said person to face severe consequences. If I was to renounce my religion however, I'd just disappoint my parents... once again.
>>8138044
How can we know you are not pulling a taqqiya on us?
>>8138052
Damn, you got me. I'm going to let you into a little secret. Islam is very similar to the novel "War of the Worlds". Muslims will slowly invade every country and once the time is right, mosques will shoot out from deep beneath the earth and play the call to prayer, activating every muslim to takeover and establish the Caliphate Earth.
Heed my warning, friends.
>>8138065
pic related
>>8138065
This isn't taqiyya I can tell because I went on religionofpeace once
>>8138052
Muslims are liars like their father, the father of lies.
I'd rather die than deny Christ.
>>8132305
>>Is it theologically more perfect or it represents an improvement in front of the Christianity of the 7th century?
A theology can not rightly be called 'improved' if one does not agree with what it teaches. There is no universal metric for the grading of theology.
>>Is it a totalitarian religion/cult? Why?
Islam, as with any other system of belief, CAN be a totalitarian force. It isn't, however, large by large. Wahhabis are the most radical muslims you'll find that fit that archetype.
>>Is islam and particularly Sunni islam a religion of peace?
Sunni v. Shia is more of a political split. It is a religion of peace, just as christianity is a religion of peace. People distort the core of the religion and use it to justify horrible things. One can do that to any faith system.
>>tell me about sufism that shit seems interesting
Sufism is sort of a broad term. It's basically mysticism. If you are familiar with orthodox christianity, hesychasm has some similarities with forms of it.
>>8138080
I've never lied in my life? Jesus was a cool dude, I wouldn't deny him either.
Anyway, I'm off to bed so I can starve tomorrow. Good night friends! Peace be upon you all
>>8138044
Would it be safe to say that the death penality is quite deeply engrained in Sunni and Shi'it law and will probably be practiced in most if not all non-secular Muslim countries and maybe even just some Muslim communities?
Honor murders seem to happen more often, even among migrants, after all.
Also:
Did you follow the Marrakesh Declaration last year? Thoughts?
Do you think Iran will keep moving towards liberation or will the hardliners fuck it up?
Is all this liberitarian BS of the Saudis just showmanship or do you think we can expect changes?
Are you one of those Muslims that reflexively spout "Those aren't Muslims!" every time something bad happens?
>If I was to renounce my religion however, I'd just disappoint my parents... once again.
...Become a Sufi? They'll still be disappointed at having a hippie as son, but at least they won't think your insta-hellbound.
>>8138085
>A theology can not rightly be called 'improved' if one does not agree with what it teaches. There is no universal metric for the grading of theology.
Do you even utilitarianism, bro?
When you can literally count civilian lives and serious physical injuries, one might argue this to be a valid metric for the more fucked side of the spectrum.
>>8138090
You don't know Lord Jesus and never have.
>>8136421
>Islam's history extends all the way from Adam to Muhammad, and the initial Abrahamic monotheism and faith in and submission to God predates Judaism or Christianity, which corrupted the initial messages of God.
Oh wow, we got an unironic muslim here. You know there's no scholarly or archeological evidence for that and that Islam is nothing but a Frankenstein religion stiched together from Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, and Arab paganism with some of Mohammad's personal bullshit opinions added in.
>>8138085
>Sunni v. Shia is more of a political split. It is a religion of peace, just as christianity is a religion of peace. People distort the core of the religion and use it to justify horrible things.
lol give me a break
ISIS hasn't done anything that Muhammed didn't personally do.
The Koran and Hadiths order Muslims to wage literal war against anyone who isn't Muslim until we're all either converted, dead, or enslaved.
Moderate Muslims are apostate from the Satanic religion they profess.
>>8138105
Neither do you.
>>8138124
The "Satanic" bit overdid it. Otherwise I might have even taken the bait.
I really don't understand Abrahamic morality. The reward is absolution, but the best reward would be to have caused no harm to begin with. The punishment is personal, but the worst punishment is to have caused harm at all. (Never mind sins that are without harm, for they are silly) Abrahamic religion is a simplistic world view that even lab mice could understand. They know pain; an electric shock. They know pleasure; a piece of cheese. Surely it is barbaric to treat poor unaware animals so, but it is often the only method of communication they can fathom.
How much worse then to treat sentient beings? Are they so deaf, so blind, as to require to lash? Or is it simply that the laws of religion are so irrational that only the lash can teach love of their ways?
Scripture holds that men are slaves, simple fear of pain, simple want of pleasure, these are good enough levers upon the human conscience. But the superior man would not be subject to such motivations. By the tyrannical nature of the religion, the superior man is disenfranchised from morality. What kind of a fucked up system is this?
>>8138131
Yes, I do. I'm a Christian. I've read the Gospels. I've been baptized. I follow Christ's teachings. Muslims know nothing of Jesus and spread lies and blasphemy against Him.
>>8138133
Islam is Satanic. What else would it be? Muhammed claimed that the angel Gabriel whispered the Koran into his ear.
Do you not know that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light?
The way to test a spirit is this: does what it say comport with the teachings that the apostles have given us?
Islam is straight from the depths of Hell.
>>8138148
To be fair, in the olden days, there was no punishment, really.
God just picked a few people and told them they wouldn't die if they did what he said.
And when Moses had to cover up after being carried through a desert by those suckers, everything just spiraled out of control.
>>8138167
It's getting weaker, m8. You have to be more subtle.
>>8138167
no u
>>8133422
Thanks senpai.
>>8138192
If your thinking that I'm baiting helps you rationalize your failure to engage my arguments, I'm glad you found that peace of mind.
>>8133355
But there's still plenty that do and as it is their religion telling them do it, it follows it is not a religion of peace, but rather a death cult. It should be either be reformed, outlawed or scrapped.
>>8136943
>And that is literally your opinion.
But it's not. As a matter of fact, everything you've said up to now has just been nothing statements of opinion and grandstanding. Extremely contemporary stereotypes aren't worth entertaining, I suggest you read a little more on the subject. Try >>8133422
>>8136769
>But that is entirely a Sufi idea. It's like saying a Catholic can also be a Buddhist while remaining Catholic.
Please stop talking about things you know nothing about.
You seem to lack not only any knowledge of Sufism but theology as a whole.
A more apt comparison would have been whether or not a Catholic believed in the doctrine of predetermination.
Sufism is a belief system within the religion, one that mostly deals with worship and intimacy not politics.
If the Quran is the only book one needs and "easy to read/to be understood", why aren't the Hadith/Sunnah considered blasphemy? Especially those, which make additional claims beyond what the Quran said?
>>8139721
Don't try to make sense out of a totalitarian death cult. The only purpose in Islam is for its leaders to get sex and money; it's a 7th century Scientology.
Daily Reminder:
If you're a Kafir then you're the enemy of Allah.
Simples.
Remove Kebab for Peace.
>>8140067
But I'm Christian, so I'm not a kafir.
>>8132305
>>8132305
1: I've heard it said that Allah is ontologically inferior to the Christian God (necessity of justice, physical punishment, etc).
You can make so many theological leaps with that statement though.
>>8140271
And yet Muhammad fought in about 30 offensive battles, conquered huge swathes of land and committed genocide, rape and raiding. How do you back your claim?
>>8140387
My claim still stands. Again, Quranists totally disregard anything but the Quran.
The Hadith are utter BS. Worse than the Bible, from a historical perspective.
One of the greater issues Islam faces, is that not only Allah and the Quran are considered perfect and infallible, but also Mohammed. Who was just a man and just as capable imperfection as all the prophets before him.
You'll find that the worst BS is found in the Hadith'.
If they didn't exist, Islam would be WAY more agreeable.
Read the Quran, dude. It's quite on par with the Bible in terms of bloodiness (but not as bad as the Talmud). But when you read it with the same mind set as you would when looking through the Bible, you could see Islam being pretty much the same as everything else.
Obviously this doesn't really solve the issues Islam faces today. But this whole "hurrdurr death cult" meme is kinda past the point.
>>8140387
>30 offensive battles
In a war started by someone else.
>conquered huge swathes of land
So he was GOAT
>committed genocide
You must be referring to Banu Qurayza except that wasn't a genocide.
>rape
??
>and raiding
See the first one.
So Muhammad's problem is he that wasn't a pussy and didn't let his people get steamrolled by a stronger army. Good to know.
>>8139721
Who said that the Qur'an is the only book you should ever read? Without supplementary readings and historical context (provided in the Hadiths), the Qur'an could be easily misinterpreted. It was said that it was simple and easy to understand, and the general tenants are indeed easy to understand. But to get a deeper understanding of other aspects of life and of the life of the Prophet, you must read other books.
The Qur'an isn't a replacement for a science or math textbook or your genre fiction book to be read for fun.
>>8140429
You're generally correct, but the quran still proscribes killing the infidel.
It's a death cult full stop
>everyone thinking Sufis are hippies
laughingibrahimadham.jpg
>>8140734
In the Quran. One part I particularly remember was in the Mariam Sure, I believe. When describing why the Quran is surperior to other scripture.
>>8140757
Defensively.
The Bible describes how we should slaughter the Jews. Quite offensively.
Not to mention that Christians and Jews are not quite "infidels". They are still people of scripture and can get into paradise, as long as they are good people. Just like people who have "never heard of Islam".
Again, I believe this point is illustrated in the Mariam Sure.
>>8140804
It's probably because most of the Sufi literature we know in the west is Persian and the most modern Sufis people know today are Musicians like Ateeq Hussain Khan.
>>8132305
just kek
>>8140876
>Defensively.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt6kKhlX8vU
>>8140975
Exactly. And that is what ISIS is doing. They have to make up this huge conspiracy theory of the world wanting to obliterate Islam, so they can have a "valid" reason for their war. And that is 90% of their propaganda.
Which wouldn't be a problem, if some chuckleheads wouldn't constantly prove their point.
>>8132305
that squiggle looks like a dick and balls.
>>8140876
>Defensively.
wrong
sage
