Why are there no Dostoevsky threads??
Do you think he was a very introverted person or extroverted ?
>>8121920
i think he was introverted unless impassioned by a feverish desire to express an opinion, otherwise, he was probably a very unpleasant man. what is it that you search for in the artist that you can't find in his work anyway, anon? the man will never be anything but the vessel from which his art pours. you will only be disappointed by his apparent emptiness.
>>8121920
this is why there aren't any dostoevsky threads.
>>8121925
Could you please explain this message I can't quite understand it , maybe i am not as intelligent as to understand that, could you please try to explain it in more simplier terms or maybe elaborate?
>>8121943
nah, don't sell yourself short bud.
basically, i think he was very introverted, it showed in his writing, what i asked you is why you want to know more about the author, dostoevsky, when his heart is in his books already? the best you'll know of dostoevsky is in his books, he's put it all there for you to see, all of his strongest thoughts and emotions and dreams. i just think you might find the real man just a shell of his books. of course there are exceptions to this, but..
>>8121951
I can't quite shake the feeling that he was different and smarter and that he somehow is manipulating people with his books
>>8121970
I doubt that, there are plenty of smart people before and after ol' Dostojewskii that outshine him intellectually. he was just an interesting example of his time, a swirl of neuroses that probably clouded a lot of people's minds at the time who didn't or couldn't speak up about it. Have you read any other russians?
>>8121970
Dostoevsky's personal philosophy is most clearly expressed by the Elder Zosima, who is really his only "mouthpiece" as a character. Other characters often express Dostoevsky's opinions, but only for certain portions (like the Prince, in the Idiot, when he's talking about the death penalty), and often run through the prism of that character's personality (like the Underground Man).
>>8122007
what about the house of the dead? that always felt like a pretty candid work. though i guess the MC wasn't all that involved in the work..
>>8122015
All of Dostoevsky's post-prison works involve his philosophy, but with more complexity than, say, how Ayn Rand illustrates her philosophy with her work. The House of the Dead is somewhat different from most of his works through because,it is so autobiographical (just like the anecdote about the death penalty the Prince relates, which is completely autobiographical).
>>8122025
really the only Dostoevsky i haven't read is a few shorts, Demons, and the Adolescent. what's your favorite? I desperately need to rehash my russians, they've always been my favorite, but it's been so long since i've broke a few of their spines.
>>8122030
Crime and Punishment.
>>8122034
tolstoy or dostoevsky?
>>8122040
Dostoevsky.
Tolstoy is a great psychologist and stylist, but has zero spiritual quality.
>>8121992
I see where you come from with the neuroses but he writes more then just about his physiological state he writes about the circumstances of ones life that cause suffering and cause that neurosis. He also talks about how life is really just an experience and that we should sort of it just see it through regardless of the suffering, this of course giveing it an exisstantial feel.
I haven't read any other Russian but Tolstoy is next on my list.
What do you think ?
>>8122045
ohhh, man. well, that's a shame, the correct answer was Gogol.
i agree though, i never felt any passion from Tolstoy.
>>8122007
Who is the elder? What work is he in?
>>8122053
thas Karamazov Siblings.
>>8122059
I believe it was Kurt Vonnegut who said There is one other book, that can teach you everything you need to know about life... it's The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoyevsky, but that's not enough anymore.
What do you think?
>>8122046
well, i think tolstoy is a natural next step, though if you want similar stuff to Dostoevsky, you'll probably have to look elsewhere, Gogol definitely. I've read tragically little of the russian canon. I really liked Bely though, He's probably my favorite after Gogol.
>>8122068
What is Gogol like?
>>8122073
he can be funny as well as creepy and pretty brilliant, I really enjoyed his The Portrait, but i'd start with The Nose if i were you, just as a quick idea of how interesting he can be. it's very very short, you could probably read it in a few hours.
>>8122079
Thanks I will! I just don't think I'll ever connect with another author like Dostoevsky , even though I'm reading him in another language then his own.
>>8122085
there are a lot of authors out there. a lot. you might be surprised if you keep your mind open, anon. good luck, i hope you like gogol :D
>>8122046
I was a dumb cunt and after a year or two of not reading read guns, germs and steel and war and peace simultaneously. I nearly never read again. Fuck that sentence has some ands in it
>>8122095
Why not?
Ban everyone in this thread
>>8122095
Well not reading for so long. Guns,germs and steel while I did like it was such a chore and dragged out war and peace soo long I lost interest in both and only remember/grasped bits and pieces of war and peace. So I know I had to read it again but my reading list is miles long already. I just felt I wasted my first chance at a good book and writer
So I'm going to start reading Dostoevsky, what should I read and in what order?
To answer TS's question, Doestoevsky was INFJ, if anyone cares to look up what that means
(basically an extroverted introvert. Imagine a battery that when full needs space, and when running on empty needs full. And then the middle is just, like, thinking)
>>8122254
Brothers first, then Crime
>>8121920
good job on making this thread anon, keep me posted on your future threads
>>8122288
Thanks, I'll be posting on here quite a lot about Dostoevsky , I'll keep the conversation going on his work and existentialism . His work really is great.
>>8122254
His most popular and notable works include Crime and Punishiment, The Brothers Karamazov , Notes from the Underground and The Idiot.
Out of all of these the only ones I've read are crime and punishment and notes from the underground, I am currently reading The Gambler,
All his work is great and so far after reading many of his short stories I can't say that any of them are bad , they are all masterpieces in their own right.
I would say start with his post prison work which would be crime and punishment or the brothers Karamazov but the latter is very long.
>>8122064
That quote is in Slaughterhouse-Five, and he was right and is still right.
>>8122254
His later works have many disparate plot strands that can be difficult to keep track of if you're not used to it, so I would start with notes from underground
>>8122254
You can start in a lot of different places. I would recommend Crime and Punishment -> Notes from the Underground then either The Idiot if you want more religious discussion or Demons if you want more political discussion -> whichever one of those you didn't read -> Brothers Karamazov
>>8122007
How do you know when they are speaking his opinions?
>>8122064
Of course that's not accurate. I've read The Brothers Karamazov and there is surely more to life than what is in that book. It is a real masterpiece though.
>>8122254
This is the order I read him in:
Crime and Punishment. If you don't like this one, don't bother reading on.
Notes from Underground
The Brothers Karamazov
The Idiot
Poor Folk (his first novel, somewhat short, really good)
Notes from a Dead House. (Russian prison writing). Quite interesting and still entertaining.
>>8123834
Poor Folk was great.
>>8124917
Yes, definitely underrated.
>>8121920
because every art chick in my university will not shut up about him
All everyone does is romance about Existentialism
nah fuck that
>>8125366
not their fault all they've read is notes from undergrundle
>any great writer
>extrovert
pick one and only one
>>8121920
Does anyone kinda notice that people tend to have this sort of misinterpretation of Dostoyevsky as if he's some author of these nihilistic, doom and gloom, depressing works? It's kinda sad when I see people talking about Dostoyevsky like this since it might turn people off from his books.
I was watching this video the other day that really gave that impression to me, and it makes me sad for people watching that video who don't know about Dostoyevsky and end up getting the wrong impression about his works and him in general. Yes, his novels are full of suffering, but there always was this 'light at the end of the tunnel' theme in most of his works, and that is what makes them some of the most uplifting books I've personally read.
Here's the video in question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMmSdxZpseY
They also seemed to have completely missed the point of Brothers Karamazov.
>>8125439
i'll have to get triggered in a second.
>people laud this psychotic 19th century religious madman as some kind of humanist
Dosto a shit-o.
>>8125439
i couldn't even listen to 4 minutes of that claptrap. i'd rather eat nabokov's gymsocks.
>>8125439
This is a common trope when it comes to classic Russian literature. By people who have never read any.
>>8125439
well I'm not going to voluntarily #hashtag #triggered myself, but I definitely agree.
I think people misunderstand the fact that in order to tell a message of profound hope, love, and psychological depth it must be told in a setting of hopelessness, depravity, and psychological duress.
>>8125478
sounds about right, a miserable angry man, highly unpleasant and fucked up. this isn't really a surprise, what he wrote clearly shows a lot of these aspects of his character. though i ask you, what do you expect from an author when you have his heart in his works? what can you expect? what does the man even matter? to hell with the man, the books are what matter. and the books are great.
>>8125500
Said works are exactly why I find these slanders against his character believable.
I don't think the likes of Crime & Punishment could have been written except by a debauched pervert capable of real introspection. I see myself in it. But I find all of this a fault because of how Dostoevsky handled his debasement, he retreated into religion, and used it selectively as many terrible men have done to rationalize his own behavior and forgive it, weighing the aforementioned against some eternal sentiment of spirit. It is intellectual bankruptcy, and severely undermines his message.
>>8125532
actually i think it strengthens the core of his humanity. we are humans because we are base sinners. that's why he's survived so long, because he's fucking shit. and we're all shit, so he fits right along with us. the tolstoyeans are the ones who don't think their shit stinks :D
he was a pleb at heart, a maniac, a monster, a disgusting filthy wreck of a man. and his work is one of the most prized in literary history, i think because of this, not because of whatever message he had to share.
>>8122254
I will be one of the voices that say to wait before reading Karamazov because it's a culmination of Dostoyevsky's life and work. That's not to say it's his most difficult work, beyond its length; that's Demons I think (which is also excellent). I recommend starting with either some short stories (I agree with >>8122911 about how good they are, with the exception of 'Under the Bed') or one or more novellas, in particular The Double, The Gambler, or Notes from the House of the Dead. C&P or The Idiot would make for a good first novel, with Demons and Karamazov later. Don't bother with The Adolescent unless you want to read all of his fiction.
>>8121920
>cheated on his wife
>gambled away all his money
>joined political circles that ended with him in a gulag and a faux execution
>introverted
lol
>>8125542
>without god everything is permitted
>it's fine if you murder an old pawn-breaker and her hapless sister, as long as you say sorry to Jesus
What twaddle. Dostoyevsky literally wrote a book about using Christianity as an escape from moral responsibility. He was a ridiculous cunt.
>>8125665
>without god everything is permitted
That was something Ivan believed, not something stated by Dostoevsky. You saw how Ivan ended up in the end right?
>it's fine if you murder an old pawn-breaker and her hapless sister, as long as you say sorry to Jesus
>implying Raskolnikov got off scott-free
>>8125665
nothing you said here defies my point of him being a perfect example of human shit.
face it, even if you hated what the book was about, you probably still loved the book. and if you hated the book, i wonder why you like literature.
>>8125678
>being this much of a pleb
>>8125671
>>implying Raskolnikov got off scott-free
>10 years in prison with your whore wife and friends near, made all too bearable by your religious conviction that an eternity in paradise awaits you
It is literally scot-free, 10 years is nothing against eternity.
>>8125678
I liked the book until the epilogue. His message is a stupid one, one of wilful ignorance and cognitive dissonance, as I've explained.
>>8125735
well, i'll never defend Dostojewskii's character, or any message he attempted to convey, rather his literary importance, that i'll defend forever, and happily. I think we fundamentally agree anyhow, the guy was shit, but i do think that the literary merit alone of bringing millions into the fold of book lovers is something to be considered, though it wouldn't make up for the rape of a child, or what have you. that's always something i struggle with, the idea that humanity's greatest triumphs are just art and their worst failures are hideous deeds beyond comprehension. doesn't ever seem worth it.
>>8125735
That's completely disregarding the inward suffering and guilt that he'd have to bear for the rest of his life because of the murders. I mean, just look at Rodya's actions throughout the book after he had commited the crime. It was the inward suffering that hit him the most rather than the threat of a prison sentence, which was what ended up leading him to redemption. Would you call all of that 'scott-free'?
>>8125796
Yes, he felt better after he admitted it. Murderers should not get relief. Which is what his mystical mumbo jumbo is.
>>8126022
>murderers should not get relief
>eating from the trashcan of ideology like this
