>>8116168
>he thinks writing skills are the same thing as grammar

>>8116176
In this context, they're synonymous. Stop being a pedantic faggot because you know exactly what i meant. Not being able to properly communicate your message through writing constitutes a lack of writing skills.

I imagine it's because writing is no longer taught at the same fundamental level that it used to be. My nephew isn't even taught cursive writing anymore, and his spelling words are significantly dumbed down from what mine were like in the 90's

Gee whiz, most people in the world aren't English majors and don't need to write or read perfectly to survive in it. Who would've guessed.

>>8116249
maybe these people are purposely writing incoherently. it's a pretty common postmodern technique desu

>>8116168
These are also the same people who say that people get into writing because they're not smart enough "to learn a real art."

>>8116288
Prole detected.

If I don't need to use the proper there to communicate my point to another person why should I worry about using it?

>>8116303
No they're not, the vast majority of them are just people. It's doubtful any of them even care enough about art to have that viewpoint in the first place.

>>8116321
>If I don't need to use the proper there to communicate my point to another person why should I worry about using it?
It should be second nature. Having to worry about it to get it right is pathetic.

Understand how language works.
Mostly we're just regurgitating things we've heard before that we associate with a specific idea. The finer points of grammar (i.e. syntax) just serve to make it more pronounceable. That's why programs like Google Translate work: a literal translation or gloss conveys the majority of the information, just in a clunky form.
If I say "pillow my head, it tires" or "hurt stomach cries for food", you get what I mean with a little thought. We're very good at mimicing syntax we've heard before, so most people get to the point where they can be understood without being mocked and stop trying to understand further.

>>8116288
>you need to be an English major to know the difference between there, they're, and their
Please just stop posting.

>>8116331
>It should be second nature. Having to worry about it to get it right is pathetic.
We're not talking about writers here, remember, we're talking about the average person who doesn't need to survive off these things and according to the OP himself is seemingly intelligent and competent. If I don't need to survive off do something the proper way and it has no baring on my livelihood or current situation why should I care ?
>>8116343
Because that's all OP was talking about.

>>8116351
>baring
The prolemeter is off the charts. You mark yourself as a person of low value when you do things like this and when people hear you speak with imprecise syntax. It means you're either too oblivious, lazy, or disrespectful to use proper English, or you're too stupid to learn.

>>8116351
Wrong. Writing at a middle-school level when you're an adult who's lived here for their whole life is just embarrassing and unacceptable, regardless of your career or profession.

>>8116377
>It means you're either too oblivious, lazy, or disrespectful to use proper English,
And it has no negative net affect on my social life or ability to be hired for jobs, so I'll ask again, why should I care? You've given me no answers other than "cuz it's proper English man, it makes you look good". Give me a reason to be motivated to learn proper English or shut up.

The English language is a bastardization since the beginning, so bastardization isn't anything new.

>>8116386
It's obviously acceptable to a majority of the population. I'll ask again - why should I care? Other than saying "because it's bad to not have it" in less kind words none of you have made a very good argument for learning proper English.

>>8116334
this. and as a side note i would argue that it isnt terribly important to follow the mighty rules of syntax and grammar. in fact some things can be better portrayed by breaking the them- dreams, hallucinations, dialects, etc.

>>8116391
That's because you don't work with anything that matters or requires a sharp mind to handle. You mark your low station in life every time you open your mouth.

people who don't respect parallel structure are my trigger

>>8116412
>That's because you don't work with anything that matters
And I should care about being important because...? Again, "because it's bad not to have it" isn't a good argument. Give me a reason to improve my English in a way that affects my overall happiness in life, any other reason is meaningless to me and is to most people.

I'm genuinely asking you to convince me, so throwing insults my way isn't helping you in any way.

>>8116425
Did I do that in the OP? Please elaborate.

>>8116428
It's not bad in some universal/moral sense. It's just that when someone speaks that way I know that I have the upper hand on him socially. I sound more intelligent when I speak, and will be taken more seriously, as my speech denotes the fact that I work in a field where it is important that I be understood clearly. If you think most people are okay with being looked down on openly, you're delusional.

>>8116444
people speak different dialects of english in different parts of the world. Your car breaks down on the east side of Detroit and YOU will be the one looked down for speaking proper, while in the white collar professional setting, you might have the upper hand

grammar is for dweebs 2bh

>>8116455
If my car broke down in Detroit I would not fit in, but that's not the same as being beneath someone. I may cause resentment, but that is by definition what someone feels for someone they perceive to be their superior in some way.

You know black girls go nuts for clean, well-spoken white guys, right?

>>8116444
>my speech denotes the fact that I work in a field where it is important that I be understood clearly
And this is only important to be the people who place importance in that field. You're the one who seems to be delusional here, only looking from your world view. The anon gave the Detroit example, there are others that could just as easily be used to tear down your ideas. If you were in the a more downtrodden side of town where gangs are rampant and needed to know the local lingo to bypass them, proper English wouldn't mean jackshit, and, no, the fact that you know proper English wouldn't cause resentment, it'd just put you beneath them in their social latter.

It's important to have whatever's considered "proper" communicative skills in certain situations, yes, but proper English isn't the only "proper" communication.
>>8116472
Some black girls do, yes. All black girls? No. I can tell from your posts that you're very sheltered. You seem to think the world revolves around the social latter you're so desperate to climb, it doesn't. Most people couldn't give less of a shit about it.

>>8116491
Latter/Ladder. Eh, no big deal.

>>8116437
That's not me, friendo, but I'll try. Being able to express your thoughts, opinions, and emotions in an articulate, precise way to both yourself and other people is a skill that is beneficial to literally everybody. This is something that comes up every single day--it's not like calculus where you can neglect it, shy away from it, and still manage to walk away relatively unaffected. By not practicing this skill to reach an acceptable level of interpersonal and intrapersonal communication (not English major levels of fluency, but just general grammatical and syntactical competency to be able to express yourself effectively), you are actively making things more difficult for yourself and everyone who ever comes in contact with you. You don't have to write novels. You don't have to know fancy SAT words that'll never come up in conversation. But if you don't know the difference between "your" and "you're," or you've got dangling modifiers in your sentences, you need to unfuck your shit up.

>>8116472
ok, well i would say resentment is the same thing. You resent people with bad English. let me word it differently.. i worked in a factory while i was getting my masters. I didn't speak like everyone there. (poor dirty white trash) They thought I was stuck up and self important. I didn't fit in. If I was trying to advance in a blue collar career my it would have deterred me. I would have either had to conform or be at a disadvantage. It's the same way for someone with bad English in a white collar workplace.

I know it's not identical, but realize that having good English doesn't necessarily give you the "social upper hand"

>And this is only important to be the people who place importance in that field.
Predictably, you're missing the point. People who need to be understood are critical to the success of something that matters enough to only hire those with good communication skills. There are surely exceptions, but this implies that you are intelligent and well-compensated for it.

>If you were in the a more downtrodden side of town where gangs are rampant and needed to know the local lingo to bypass them, proper English wouldn't mean jackshit, and, no, the fact that you know proper English wouldn't cause resentment, it'd just put you beneath them in their social latter
So? A smart general only enters battles he can win. There's nothing in the ghetto I want, so it's kind of a moot point.

>>8116491
>You seem to think the world revolves around the social latter you're so desperate to climb, it doesn't. Most people couldn't give less of a shit about it.
C.R.E.A.M. to be honest

>be me
>love grammar
>love philology
>love languages
>tfw practically dyslexic
it's like knowing how to play the guitar but you have no hands

>>8116512
Obviously being well-spoken doesn't make up for being a fucking factory worker. It's not magic. However, if you wanted to climb into a high enough managerial position in that same company, you would do well to speak properly.

>>8116521
>So? A smart general only enters battles he can win. There's nothing in the ghetto I want, so it's kind of a moot point.
OK. I get it. What you actually mean is that proper English is important to the limited social experiences you feel comfortable engaging in. Not knocking you btw, it makes perfect sense.

>>8116525
Can't you work around that with text-to-speech or something similar?

>>8116532
I can't just become a ghetto resident by trying to copy the lingo, the same way someone from there can't fit right into my place in society by studying a textbook and the OED. The point that I'm making, with a too-heavy dose of trolling, is that the positions in society where being well-spoken is beneficial are more powerful than the ones where strong dialects and casual disregard for grammar are prevalent, and everyone is aware of this, hence the peer-group punishment of people in lower-class settings who speak too well.

There's a flip-side to this though. I've fucked up my etiquette with a street drug dealer before, and was gently corrected. Why didn't he take it as a personal insult and get super pissed off? My guess would be that my speech and manners marked me as someone who more likely just doesn't know the rules rather than an undercover cop or rival person from his own sphere.

>>8116528
But you can understand why said factory worker isn't wholly concerned with mastering the English language? Look, we are probably among the top .05 percent of English speakers. We are arguing on a particularly pretentious forum dedicated to literature. Obviously WE value this. I'm just trying to say everyone else doesn't necessarily value it the same.

>>8116561
>positions in society where being well-spoken is beneficial are more powerful than the ones where strong dialects and casual disregard for grammar are prevalent

cant argue with this at all...all i'm saying is that there are countless dialects in america alone and if you are somewhere with a particular dialect (not saying you would ever willingly be in one) it might be beneficial to conform. And if you are born into one, well that opens up an entirely different conversation...

>>8116565
The worker is unconcerned because he is not important enough that it matters if his speech contains ambiguities. His peers will also punish him for speaking too well because it implies that he thinks he can rise above them socially or embarrass them in some way.

I don't think it's just literature enthusiasts who value proper speech. If you had the opportunity to interview several surgeons before choosing one to operate on you, would you not prefer one who speaks well over one who doesn't? I think clarity of speech implies a conscientious and clear mind, not to mention an educated and active one.

I'm trolling a little, but I am serious when I say that there's a stark difference between the types of people who've commended me on my language and those who've mocked me for it. The ones who respect it have taken me much further.

>>8116543
Reading isn't too bad, but, without spell check and proof reading, my spelling and word order looks all kinds of retarded.

I don't think the programs to transcribe from speech work that well, especially if you have to train them in a few languages. Most of the time it only bothers me because I have to work slower to make less mistakes, and revise everything to make sure it's not complete nonsense. Spell check really helps a lot with this because I used have to go letter by letter and cover parts of words. Now, it's much easier to find and fix the ones I know how to spell in speech but can't seem to put the letters down in order when I write.

People still give me weird looks when they see the difference between talking to me about linguistics and when I try to write something. It's like they think I hired a retard to write for me, when I'm my own personal retard.

>>8116587
again, i dont argue with this at all. just explaining why I dont hate people that dont meet my English standards like OP was talking about. it's not always as simple as just buying a textbook and learning proper English. hell i'm fascinated with dialects, I wouldn't want to get rid of them if i could.

>>8116586
So, trolling aside, I actually am from a place where most people speak with a regional dialect. One side of my family, which I love dearly, is working-class from the rural south, and I often interact with people from that set when I go home. I grew up there and can speak the lingo pretty well, but not quite as comfortably as them, and it shows, even when my accent thickens to set molasses. Sometimes I get flak for it, but at the end of the day, I'm the one who's got the juice to fly away and go back to his real house and his neighbors who aren't all obese. It's an ugly reality, but somewhere along the way I had to choose one over the other as my dominant speech pattern, and I can't say I regret my choice.

>>8116602
I don't mean to pry, but this post turned out very well. Did it require a lot of effort to write that out? How long did it take?

And by text-to-speech, I meant transcribing your writing into speech, just to be able to quickly tell if something is out of order or misspelled. Would that work, or am I foolishly oversimplifying things?

>>8116621
I used smaller words and effort, but it was pretty fast for me.

I meant a program to write down what I say. Your idea works, and I know Apple has it as standard in one of its writing programs. It is annoying to listen to a computerized voice though. It also can sound confusing when it pronounces misplaced or wrong letters. so I have to think of what the word was supposed to be.

I'm glad it's mainly my writing that's affected instead of reading or learning spellings being my big problem, because that would really make it impossible to learn more words.

I have a really good memory for obscure spellings and words too, since I can't rely on my notes making sense. A spelling bee would be a breeze, but, if I had to give my answers in writing, or read the answer off a page, I'd be absolute shit.

>>8116673
Cheers, man, thank you. Your passion for writing is incredibly inspirational.

>>8116686
Thanks, I just like words. I'm glad it inspires you, for a bit it looked like I the only people I inspired was the benis posters.

File: bond spurdo.png (159 KB, 1664x1162) Image search: [Google]

159 KB, 1664x1162

>>8116696

File: comment_NZOGrOHcamPVaRoaDxuSntUHrAWzJCVh[1].jpg (81 KB, 600x357) Image search: [Google]

81 KB, 600x357

>>8116696

>>8116706
>all my notes

>>8116303
How many adjectives are there for 'privileged', I wonder? But /lit/ asserts ignorance as a visage for privilege... And upon /lit/'s Google search to quantify my question found the Internet is, [a privilege] not ignorance.

>>8117111
Go to bed, schizoid.

>>8117121
A fine example of ad hominem. Still awaiting a refutation, friend.

>>8117111
People on welfare own smartphones with internet access now. I should know--I was one of them as little as two years ago. There is literally no excuse for willful ignorance when the answer behind every studied event or concept you could ever possibly wonder about is available instantaneously at your very fingertips. Don't give me this "privilege" bullshit, you liberal yuppie fuck.

>>8117146
A refutation of...?