Can someone please recommend good literature with a female protagonist who
1) is realistically & deeply complex
2) has a real character arc, either with some kind of heroic accomplishment or transformation, or genuine pathos
3) isn't primarily defined in terms of, or challenged by, gender roles / some aspect of womanhood (so, her gender is mostly or entirely inconsequential to her story)
I am having trouble thinking of stories that fit the bill
Can you think of male protagonists who aren't challenged by male gender roles?
Their gender is kind of inherent to their character.
>>8084176
>female protagonist
>realistically & deeply complex
pick one
>>8084176
oh god i want to cum on her feet
also, the miss marple novels
>inb4 wah wah genre wah
>>8084184
>Can you think of male protagonists who aren't challenged by male gender roles?
Seriously?
>>8084176
The Wall by Marlen Hauschofer and Sisters by a River by Barbara Comyns
a woman writing a book about a woman in a male world, i.e. literature, without considering her own gender is like a man writing about a eunuch without ever mentioning the fact
unless you want to read comic books. judging from your criteria, you do though.
>>8084196
Yes. Seriously.
>>8084196
Yes, seriously.
>>8084176
I want to suck her toes ;_:
>>8084254
>is like a man writing about a eunuch without ever mentioning the fact
i read a couple such books... sun also rises by hemingway and another one which i don't remember the name or the author
The Crying of Lot 49
now take your shitty b8 thread we've all seen a million times and shove it.
>>8084176
>>8084176
>reading for pleb shit like "character arcs"
>>>/rbooks/
>>8084196
Yes, seriously.
>>8084196
Yes, seriously.
>>8084196
Yes, seriously.
>>8084284
>>8084286
>>8084352
>>8084361
>>8084382
I'm actually one of the commenters, but since this is a pretty male forum, and therefore a safe space, I challenge you all to name me some actual ones who aren't [challenged by male gender roles], and then we can argue why it's not true/an exception that proves the rule.*
Let me start -- Dorian Gray, The Picture of Dorian Gray.
---------
*this is only important because we have proven that women cannot be realistically & deeply complex. Or rather they can, just not in the sense that is open to being portrayed as particular characters. Character itself is a pretty masculine concept[a].
[a]Maybe women are a better fit for comedy, where plot matters most, and the portrayed roles are changing their key values from beat to beat in order to achieve the planned ending.
Do we have a femishit here
>>8084490
This place is the opposite of a safe space, faggot.
>>8084490
The OP was actually about finding examples of woman protagonists who are only "incidentally female." I was sort of trying to do a Bechdel test type thing, looking for characters who are interesting in and of themselves as human beings. Characters who aren't essentialized by their gender, who aren't inherently subject to gender roles because of their gender. I am writing a paper on women's agency in Western literature.
It's funny that people had this bizarre kneejerk reaction that it was some sort of MRA alien conspiracy, and immediately.. essentialized female protagonists as inherently struggling against their gender roles because of their gender.
The only real answer so far was >>8084220 and I'm definitely gonna check these out. Especially The Wall. Thanks bro.
>>8084504
Haha yes, we're all following you, just filtering the Internet for certain keywords and waiting to start a discussion. :^) Like we don't have anything better to do with our time. So typically male attitude :^)
Seriously though, Dorian Gray. Obviously I'm a male, dummy.
Btw boys, what brand condoms do you use ^^ I use Trojan mostly.
Also, how often should I get a check-up at the urologist, my dad says that it's once every year, but I'm kinda nervous because we have a female urologist and I'm kinda nervous about her seeing and touching my penis. Is a male nurse supposed to be there the entire time during the exam? Did any of you boys ever have a bad experience with a female urologist?
>>8084517
Hahah I know right. :^) Lmao!
>>8084196
Gay dicks, seriously.
>>8084176
>deeply complex
>>8084176
>heroic
>>8084176
>3) isn't primarily defined in terms of, or challenged by, gender roles
https://youtu.be/IRuYZNFf72s
>>8084196
Yes, seriously.
>>8084176
women don't face the same struggles that men do
everything they do in life is framed by their gender
better luck next time bud
>>8084525
Here's something to tickle your fancy then: if a woman protagonist isn't only "incidentally female", can she really even be realistically & deeply complex? (See: >>8084490 : "character is a pretty masculine concept") Should stand-ins for female real literature writers even count? The writeresses themselves are generally relatively above-average masculine in temper, compared to other women.
Does hunger-games-tier shit count, where it was mere marketing research and lust for PC points that decided they should be female? They're both bland characters *and* only incidentally female at the same time.
Good luck with your paper, Cambridge.
>>8084585
>Thanks!
I hope this wasn't ironic, I'd really be glad to know that my deeds were appreciated.
Also, r u girl.Or are you writing this propagandist piece just for the monies?
>>8084176
I hate most women, more than I hate most men at least, but I still enjoyed and had plenty of feels while reading The Bell Jar by Sylvia Plath. Though most of the novel is: "being an intelligent woman in the 50s is difficult!" and her relishing in that suffering. The entire novel is womanhood issues: things like rape, abortions, workplace exploitation, eating disorders, etc. but instead of me rolling my eyes at their so-called issues like I usually do, she wrote it in such a way where I actually cared. It dives headlong into the darkness hidden in every woman.
It even plucked at my repressed white knight feelings even if deep down I still realized women of this psychological complexity (the good kind) and sincerity are one in a billion.
>>8084176
Crying of Lot 49 -- Oedipa Maas is a pretty cool character, develops and learns by the end of the story, and has agency. She does have a mostly absent (ex? it's been a long time) husband but he barely matters. Her problems are about uncovering Pynchonian conspiracies and secrets, not having a vagina.
Silence of the Lambs (shut up I believe this is a good book) - Clarice S is complex, ends up struggling and pulling through, although she is a female FBI agent and sometimes gets extra problems because of that, it's mostly her trying to crack the Buffalo Bill case that is the challenge, not her gender
Alice's Adventures in Wonderland / Through the Looking Glass -- I'm not sure if Alice is "complex" or has a character arc but she sure is a fun character and enough gumption to make it out of Wonderland. Her womanhood is not a problem because she isn't a woman... lol.
Fantasy options
The Scar by China Mieville... the main protag is a female linguist, pretty cool character IMO, and does develop over the novel. Her gender is a tiny bit consequential in that (spoilers) a spy uses sex to play with her emotions and manipulate her, but if you switched the genders it wouldn't be different than any male chr getting played by a femme fatale. Plus that's not a critical part of the story anyway.
Sabriel by Garth Nix... she has a slight romance that is somewhat plot relevant, but mostly the protag is a just a cool female magic user who manages to overcome her non gender related problems and be a hero
>>8084779
>Her gender is a tiny bit consequential in that (spoilers) a spy uses sex to play with her emotions and manipulate her
eww, a typical chick lit
it's not we had sex by the mutual agreement and for the mutual enjoyment, it's that guy manipulated me, likely raped too since i dislike him now
women's lives revolve too much around sex too be interesting
>>8084176
Hedda gabler
Maybe not 2
>>8084176
Catalyst by Laurie Halse Anderson I had to read it in high school
>>8085062
this
Amy Joubert from JR.
the bell jar
Crying of lot 49, inb4 calling her a lightweight. Maybe also Bleeding edge, I wasn't really into it.
>>8085105
yeah crying of lot 49 is a great book
does seem like she just happened to be a woman, it was more about introspection than how she interacted with the world
>>8085109
true, I guess in the 60s a house wife being a protagonist had more impact but these days it just seems thrown in.
>>8084176
>complex females
Topkek my friend.
Well played.
>>8085178
I saw a Book of Mormon with a congregation of true believers
>>8085185
Satisfactorily played.
Lolita
>>8084176
>(so, her gender is mostly or entirely inconsequential to her story)
You'll Niggas Don't Even Post-Modern.
>>8085192
true
that guy could elope with a little boy just as well
>>8084540
>>8084543
>>8084551
She's my hero
>>8085192
I'm like 60 pages in and i want to quit. I feel like i already learned the bulk it has to offer. It's agony to read. Should i keep going?
>>8085192
Antagonist
>4-es metró
classic women hate thread never gets old funny guys haha love the meme women suck bc ive never had one! whos with me????
>>8084176
>Female character capable of being deeply complex whilst staying realistic to female nature
oh man.
>>8086392
>I am le mature intellectual who ignores trends because if I don't face reality I can unironically claim I'm rationally smarter and more open minded than others
been with maybe 6-7 women now, they are usually empty minded past tasks they are handed. Had one that wasn't and she was a miserable and no fun at all, dumped her after two months.
>>8086405
>I am le mature intellectual who is dumb enough to confirm 4chan memes based on a sample size of "6-7"
>>8086498
using the le meme doesn't help your case, roast-o
I'll add to the sample size- i've popped over 20 girls.
The female character is not deep - it is a shallowness that pretends to deepness - a thorny tongue and a warped mirror
>>8086518
Oh man, 2 people in 4chan using /r9k/ memes claim they've had sex with a whole 27 (!!!!) people and make generalizations over half of the world's population! How can I contest this information? I guess I'll just kill myself now to restore my family's honorIt's pretty obvious you don't ever get out of your house, stop even trying
>>8086536
there's no need to be so upset, babe
>>8084585
>existentialist feminism
Kys.
>>8086543
I don't think you realize how clueless you look. If you think this is how normal people talk, you are wrong. Also, I'm male. Just go back to /r9k/
>>8086552
Look you stupid stupid girl, you're not going to be able to convince me that i didn't fuck all those women
attempt to invalidate my experience all you want, the fact remains that the inferiority of women is one of the oldest and most persistent memes in all of human history, and it's no accident, it's because for the most part women actually suck out loud.
>>8085389
>It's agony to read.
Are you ten?
>>8086569
You fucking reek of autism, as expected when a non-functional piece of shit tries to look normal. I don't need to "convince" you of anything when you're so transparently lying. You may as well be carrying a sign that says "I'm a virgin", and I don't think if that lump of slime inside that skull of yours deluded you to think you were convincing anyone with half a brain, but I assure you you weren't.
I have no more time to waste.
>>8086601
don't get mad just cos i've had more sex than you that's hella weak yo
>>8084609
Janet Frame Owls do cry
>>8085384
You're my hero now
>>8086222
>>8084176
Does webcomics count as literature?
>>8086548
>Existential feminism
>What is 2nd wave feminism
[Spoiler]in b4 cancer [/spoiler]
