Who's side does /lit/ take ?
In a choice between the two, Bakunin.
>>8081585
I take a third choice, because I love Freedom and hate statism
>>8081585
Neither.
>>8081628
There's no difference between Marxism and Left-'anarchism'. In the end, big gubmint is gonna take your hard earned property and give it to lazy blacks
>>8081585
Marx, but mainly for the 1844 Manuscripts and Capital. Otherwise, I always choose Merton and Day.
Any recommendations on what to read from Bakunin?
>>8081598
>>8081637
>he took le bait
>>8081585
Bakunin was a much more interesting person, but Marx was right
>>8081598
>I love freedom
>but let's allow slavery lmao
Marx was so right on so many things, it's unsettling
>>8081634
The average black person works much harder than you do, Charles
>>8081718
>poor people are lazy
So confused over how that bullshit still flies
I without a doubt prefer marxs crotique of capitalism. Plus Bakunin was a pedophile.
does anyone have the pics of marx tripping ?
>>8081598
>Love freedom and hate statism
Sounds like Bakunin is your man.
>>8081731
>he was a witch.
>he was a jew.
>he was a communist.
He did nothing wrong
>>8081585
Marx is a meme and if people read Bakunin they would know hes superior. Marx coasted off the other Hegelians.
>>8081585
They both had good ideas
Who libertarian marxist here?
>>8081585
In the end, Bakunin was correct. All the major left-wing parties in Europe have been co-opted.
>>8081598
>thinking Murray "Sell those lolis in a hurry" "Sex slaves make me very hard" Rothbard actually cared about freedom
Otto von Bismarck remarked, upon hearing of the split at the First International, "Crowned heads, wealth and privilege may well tremble should ever again the Black and Red unite!"
>>8081598
Actually, >>8081585 also.
AAH FUCK IT
YOU'RE ALL KIKES
>posts on /lit/
>somehow manages to fuck up whose and who's
Kill yourself, OP.
>>8082111
Boring.
>>8081585
whose*
ftfy
>>8083394
a nonentity, means nothing to meare mosley's books worth reading at all?
The me^2 side.
>>8083626
Fixed this for you friend
the one with the funny beard
>>8083626
Your ignorance on the subject is truly breathtaking.
>>8083702
I'm sorry... really. It wasn't my intention to deprive you of your precious Spirit. I know you need all you can get of it so you can hold your breath for as long as you painstakingly are capable of till Utopia finally comes. (Hang in there, it's right there on the horizon!)
>>8081585
Marx. Anarchism is too idealist.
>>8083726
>too idealist
What does this mean?
>>8083799
>scientifically provenFoucault please help us
>>8083732
Society is based on ideas or material relations. Or in the case of Marxism both which is why it is superior to anarchism
>>8083799
Yeah I'm sure if Tyrone wasn't across town minding his own business you'd be applying your "High-IQ" to something other than wanking and anime forums
>>8083816
No thanks, I'd take Science and Reason over Bullshit
>implying they weren't both tools of Manzzini
How can you guys still believe that marxism isn't overrated
>>8081585
Neither, I hate reds.
>>8081636
Basic Bakunin, God and the State
>>8081740
pic related
>"Of two evils, choose neither." - G.K. Chesterton
I have made the correct choice.
>>8083816
human nature exists 100%
>>8083720
You could've at least Googled what Stirner meant by spooks before making a fool out of yourself.
Good thing this is /lit/ and not r/books, huh?
:^)
>>8081585
>Die Anarchie, das ist das große Paradepferd ihres Meisters Bakunin, der von allen sozialistischen Systemen nur die Aufschriften genommen hat
R E K T
E
K
T
>>8081731
Marx and Bakunin share the same views on capitalism. Where they differ is in the system they each recommend as a replacement.
>>8085500
Was macht das wahr?
>>8083799
But the whole point of Marx's socialism is that people's labor is owned by themselves rather than by property owners, so the fact that people differ widely in abilities in no way invalidates his theories.
His.
>>8085891
Literally who?
>>8085891
All libertarian ideologues are actually reptoid shapeshifters conspiring to enslave humanity
Marx was right for the conditions in which he lived but his works are essentially useless as a guide to moderating or achieving a just society in the modern age due to globalism and the advancement of technology.
His critique of capitalism is timeless, however, and his works should be studied and used as a basis for forming a more modern framework for which to build a better society - because even if the specifics are no longer correct, the core spirit of it is spot on.Marxist interpretations of History, meanwhile, need to just fucking die off already.
>>8085938
>globalism and the advancement of technology
Marx had a very 19th century critique. Postindustrial societies and growth of objectively meaningless jobs divorced from the creation of wealth require a whole new appraisal. Though the same contradictions of capitalist society give as much fuel as ever.
How do you get to Marxism as revolutionary ideology without Marxism as history though? And what is wrong with class reductionism?
>>8083799
Capitalists are scientifically proven not to produce value themselves. They are holding us all down imo. Imagine what us same high-IQ patrician innovators could achieve if we could just cut out the coercive property relations and let social need sort them out.
>>8085938
>Marxist interpretations of History, meanwhile, need to just fucking die off already.
Why? Do you think dialectical method is wrong?
>>8087127
>His critique of capitalism is timeless, however
This is a meme, and you know it
>>8087163
What the fuck is a "meme", in your twisted mind?
>>8085911
All marxists and non-marxists socialists are fetishists of human slavery.
>>8085938
Le Marx was right about the problem but not the solution may may. The only solution to the Marxist critique is the destruction of the double sided value form. abolishment of private property. It's almost like you have never read him and are just spouting off whatever cliche you happened to read on reddit
>>8085938
>Thinks marx was right.
>Decries Marxist historical theory.
wew
>>8087183
It's not slavery if you sign a contract.
>>8083816
Capitalism is the system that makes most sense from a Darwinian perspective. Statism fucks with the natural order, much like the selfish gene seeks to replicate itself so does the individual pursue his rational self interest. Socialism is inherently dysgenic, it encourages the unfit to breed and promotes unsustainable population growth in the third world
>>8087220
I swear this fucking naturalist appeal for social darwinism is the most IDIOTIC shite
read
a
fucking
book
moron
>>8085938
>Marx was right for the conditions in which he lived but his works are essentially useless as a guide to moderating or achieving a just society in the modern age due to globalism and the advancement of technology
what? advancement of technology plays a huge part in his analysis
>>8081585
Bakunin > Marx, but they're both pretty shit.
>>8087268
Does logic 'trigger' you?
I, for one, would rather live in a world based on science and rationality over one based on feels.
>>8087220
>unsustainable population growth in the third world
Certain problems of terminology aside, where are you talking about? Developing countries tend to have a weak as shit state apparatus and then surely social darwinism "just works :^)" in your opinion.
>>8087220
Capitalism encourages lazy leeches to flourish by robbing actual working people of the fruit of their labor.
>>8087317
*tips surplus value*
>>8085061
As-Salaam-Alaikum my fellow traditionalist. May Allah be with us as we redpill those modernist Europeans!
>>8087316
We have been subsidizing the shit out of them for decades with free food and gibsmedats. Encouraging them to breed like rabbits and then come knocking on our door when they realise they can't get enough. They need us but we don't need them. it follows that the most rational and humane option would be to let nature run its course before this whole situation gets out of control.
>>8087220
Were it not for global capitalism and colonialism, there would not be a third world overpopulation problem.
>>8087338
Wow, you are utterly clueless about how the real world actually works.
>>8087317
If it's so easy being a capitalist why don't y'all leftists go start a fucking business instead of just whining about muh injustice down in your mother's basement?
>>8087350
>why don't people just exploit workers instead of whining about worker exploitation?
Wait, are there actually unironic Marxists still around?
>>8087350
If it's so easy to eat meat, why don't y'all vegetarians start a slaughterhouse. Checkmate, hippies.
>>8087220
>Darwinian perspective
What is this, even? Natural selection is a mechanism. It is merely how populations' heritable characteristics respond to environmental pressure.
Evolution is not a ladder with "more" and "less" evolved as distinctions that can be made with any substance. There is only more/less survivable and reproducible in a given context.
http://www.cdc.gov/malaria/about/biology/sickle_cell.html
Selective pressures favor sickle cell disease in high-incidence malaria regions. Sickle cell disease is not better than normal hemoglobin.
>>8087338
>let nature run its course
Seriously you /pol/tard pseuds have no understanding whatsoever of science
>>8087350
>If it's so easy being a capitalist
>Why don't members of a class who lack the assets to subsist off just the product of their assets try to subsist off the product of their assets?
>implying anyone can freely choose not to when beyond that critical mass
>implying money ever sleeps
Bakunin was right but for the wrong reasons, most of his attacks on Marx were just /pol/ tier ad hominems. Marx would have been best if he just dropped the mic with the Theses On Feuerbach:
> The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point is to change it.
All the positive economic analysis and theory was pointless by Marxs own logic since revolution is eminent to the development of the productive forces
As Blanqui puts it much better than Marx in his Manual for an Armed Insurrection:
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/blanqui/1866/instructions1.htm
> These heroes of the inkstand profess the same scorn for the sword as officers for their slices of bread and butter. They do not seem to suspect that force is the only guarantee of freedom; that people are slaves wherever the citizens are ignorant of art of soldiery and give up the privilege to a caste or a corporate body.
> In the republics of antiquity, among the Greeks and Romans, everyone knew and practiced the art of war. The professional soldier was an unknown species. Cicero was a general, Caesar a lawyer. By taking off the toga and donning the uniform, they would begin as colonel or captain and would acquit themselves ably. As long as it is not the same in France, we will remain civilians fit to be cut down at mercy of the officer caste.
> Thousands of the educated young, working-class and bourgeois tremble under a detested yoke. To break it, do they think of taking up the sword? No! The pen, always the pen, only the pen. Why the one and not the other, as the duty of a republican requires? In times of tyranny, to write is fine, to fight is better, when the enslaved pen remains powerless. Eh bien, no! They publish a pamphlet, then go into prison, but they do not think of opening a manual of military tactics, to learn there in twenty-four hours the trade which constitutes all the power of our oppressors, and which would put in our hands our revenge and their punishment.
>>8087336
Inshallah brother
>>8087382
>Seriously you /pol/tard pseuds have no understanding whatsoever of science
no man it's how you get factz instead of feelz that's what ben stiller says
we're post ideology now just going for the TRUTH
>>8087433
>all these flag code violations
>>8087453
science dun care
Marx obviously, this is /lit/
>>8087433
It sounds stupid but alt-right kids like him have me a little worried. They're creating a whole new ideology that mixes the absolute worse elements of fascism, traditional conservatism and proletarian capitalism. Even if they remain a niche group I'm frightened that parts of their ideology trickling down into mainstream right-wing politics.
>>8087468
>proletarian capitalism
*propertarian capitalism oopsie
>>8087468
if it makes you lose any remaining belief you have in representative democracy that's one good thing that comes out of your fear
the realization that I couldn't complain about the ways in which imbeciles might try affect my life and the lives of others without also disowning any legitimizing means of control that they would utilize was a big step towards radicalization for me
>>8087504
I just want an eternal Tito to take power and suppress nationalists and reactionaries while we all shop at co-ops and live in public housing ;-;
>>8087538
no time for nostalgia now only for theory and dangerous dreams
>>8087538
Fuck that gay shit
>>8087466
>/lit/ is the same person
Wew lad
>>8087576
Has there been any new socialist theories since the 20th century? It seems like they keep digging up old shit without even trying to challenge or modify it.
>>8087663
Murray Bookchin's libertarian municipalism and Occalan's democratic confederalism
>>8087669
Oh yeah I forgot about that!
Bookchin was basically advocating that people build autonomous anarchist organizations within their own communities to eventually overtake the state, right?
>>8085403
>This is what passes for memeing nowadays.
I feel bad for you, property.
>>8087669
>democratic confederalism
This. Rojava is a call to arms for all the leftists of the world desu
>>8081718
>implying
Not important anymore.
Mass robotization must lead to a new serious discussion about property of the means of production and wealth redistribution in our scenario.
>>8087538
No tears, little Leftist; only work camps now :^)
>>8083799
>high-IQ patrician innovators
For christ's sake, if you're going to spend your limited time on earth writing epic bait on a Laotian fingerpainting forum, at least have the decency to make it original or actually funny.
>>8088547
Not the other guy but I thought this is about Indonesian Fish Massage ? Also I'm for Meritocratic Despotism with Nietzschean elements.
>>8087538
The similarities are baffling
>>8087608
Nah, I'll stay.
>>8081585
I prefer Bakunin because I dislike the state, whether it's proletarian or not.
>>8087608
Kill yourself summerfag
>>8087608
>you can be judged by your conclusions rather than your arguments and methods
A Marxist with a poor grasp on the underlying philosophy, critique and argumentation is more damaging and insulting to the revolution than a well-spoken, evidence-based reactionary and should be shunted off to /pol/ before anyone.
Sycophantic circlejerks are the worst poison; sunlight is the best disinfectant
>>8089888
Literally, what?
Just pick a fucking side, pantywaist. It's not a complicated question. You fussy little whiners are the absolute worst.
>b-b-but i'm not a leftist...
Holy hell.
>>8089902
>Just pick a fucking side
I mean, I quite clearly have.
Bourgeois politics is dominated by misplaced senses of group loyalty that lead to people acting against their own interests. If you're "correct" for entirely wrong reasons you are a threat to revolution and everyone with a grain of responsibility.
>>8087310
>science and rationality
>>8081585
This one. I like this one
>>8081694
>>8087190
It's not.
t. Rossou
>>8091187
>calls me a fascist in the first place
You're so wrong you're not even wrong, >>>/pol/tard
>>8081585
You can say what you want about Marxism, but you have to give credit to the perception of a guy like Engels who, although obviously not knowing what to do with Stirner and in the end dismissing him as a 'curiosity', was substantially correct in characterising Bakunin's philosophy as Stirner 'diluted' with a bit of Proudhon.
To quote a non-meme academic article written on occasion of Stirner's bicentennial, Carl-Friedrich Geyer must have picked up on something similar when he writes of utopians 'von Bakunin bis [Ernst] Bloch' not knowing what to do with the radical autopoesis and individualism of Stirner.
M A R X B A B Y
>>8083929
Marxism failed, because it was to early. Russia was at feudalism level. For example-England at early capithalism. Marx said that revolution should become in most develope country, wich rich socialism. Did you expected communism in Russia or China?
>>8092728
>the radical autopoesis and individualism of Stirner.
onanistic bourgeois ideology par excellence. for the wastebasket of history, like all the other solipsists out there. more at home among novelists than philosophers.
>>8093178
Under the guidance of the Party, and wise comrade Xi People's Republic of China is decidedly marching towards full communism
>>8093329
>for the wastebasket of history, like all the other solipsists out there.
Too many buzzwords, phamily.
>taking sides
Pathetic.
>>8094762
try learning how to read
>>8093329
even if you are trying to sound like a hardcore marxist you can't deny Stirner's influence in Marx's materialist turn. Before him he was a Feuerbachian
>>8094841
Try learning how to write with your own words.
>>8094872
try learning that you're a faggot haha.
if you reply it only goes to show how thoroughly roasted you are
>>8094853
i can deny it, and in fact, i am. sterner is a waste of time for anyone concerned with altering the fact of his politicized existence.
>>8094881
>roasted
I don't know your lingo... is that a food?
