Making my way through the Dune saga, and just finished Dune Messiah. I read in the introduction by Brian Herbert that Messiah wasn't well received, that people thought it went against Paul's character.
Why did people think this? I thought Paul's actions were perfectly in line with the original novel. He couldn't prevent the Jihad from happening, so he chooses a path that will (somewhat) minimize its effects and his role in them. Paul never wanted to see his banner planted in the flames of other planets.
I thought the plot continued from the original novel in a perfect way, too. All the elements involved are stated in the original novel, with Paul not wanting to bear child with Irulan and standing against the Bene Gesserit and Guild, so a plot against him should've been expected.
While the original Dune is still top tier and one of my favorite books, I felt this one was a deserving sequel. The conspiracy plot kept me from being able to put it down.
I'm in the beginning of Children of Dune now.Alia is my waifu.
>>8081295
>muh hero
>>8081295
>reading an star wars ripoff
>>8081295
Messiah is the best written of all the Dune books IMHO, it has an elegiac quality and sadness to it which none of the other books achieved (or intended to achieve). It's also a great deconstruction of the hero myth, but you have to admit it's pretty unusual and probably not the sequel most people wanted.
>>8081295
The first book didn't really get across the fact that Paul was a tragic hero. I mean yeah, they did the UR DADS DED stuff but at the end we see him as a conquering badass and get very little info to indicate that he's going to spend the rest of his life trying to manage his fucking horrific visions of the future.
The book on Paul's tragedy's not closed until Leto II breeds an Atredies with a no-gene.
>>8081339
Dune: Messiah - 1969
Star Wars - 1977
Fuck off.
>>8081295
Dune basically had a happy ending (PAUL RULES!) and people don't like reading about how it turned out not to be that great after all.
I thought the second one was the most epic of them all. it kicked so much ass. Paul after that atomic blast, calling out orders a shit. bad ass.
>>8084274
I remember thinking the 2nd one was the best when I read them years ago, the scene you described is the only part of the book I really remember.
>>8081295
>I read in the introduction by Brian Herbert that Messiah wasn't well received, that people thought it went against Paul's character.
>Why did people think this?
they didn't. he was perhaps thinking of the truly awful prequels he wrote with what's-his-name. they were not at all well received.
>>8081295
She is the waifu of many.
>>8081339
Just wow. Lucas didn't even write his own novels (adaptations). Your comment shows a level of ignorance that simply astounds. My children would laugh at you.
>>8084274 >>8084283
/thread
>>8086735
stop defending your favorite author's blatant theft. he ripped off star wars worse than games workshop ripped off warcraft.
>Brian Herbert
Identified the problem.
Just finished reading God Emperor of Dune, what's the point of Leto's golden path ?
>>8087947
are you fucking serious?
>>8088006
Yes, explain to me like i'm a 5 years old
My friends in high school were obsessed with these books but I never read them. I remember thinking that the Tleilaxu sounded really cool. Are they very present in the books, or more background characters?
>>8088096
Not in the first two at least.
>>8088030
Not the other guy, but Leto wanted humanity to continue existing. He foresaw stagnation and a lack of human exploration and settlement. Eventually humans would just go extinct in the relatively small area they explored and settled. So he restricted humanity to a very small area by hording the spice. When he died and his reign ended, humanity's will to explore just kinda exploded - they ended up reaching far beyond where they had previously gone, thus preserving humanity's future. Leto's 3000-year reign and death were all part of his plan. It's why he told that one lady (I'm recalling all this from memory but I can't remember names for shit) to do whatever she was ordered to do - even to fire the lasgun that would destroy the bridge. Leto knew he was walking into his assassination, and his reign was sufficiently long to have the necessary effect. I remember he wanted to send a lesson that humanity "would feel in its bones", so it had to be epic and soul-crushingly depressing.
>>8088343
>humanity's will to explore just kinda exploded - they ended up reaching far beyond where they had previously gone, thus -
thus creating the Honored Matres, who came back to the old empire and started killing everyone.
didn't see that one coming, did you, Leto? little smart ass.
>>8087947
honestly first time I read it I didn't really get it straight away.
Then I thought about what Leto did for 3000 years.
>>8088867
>Then I thought about what Leto did for 3000 years
Bullying Duncan Idaho ?
>>8081295
It's completely consistent with Paul's character. He's the most evil being in the universe, so he spend the book killing billions of people. QED.
t. Harkonnen master race.
>>8085346
>tfw no history of the dune universe styled as a prose epic like the The Silmarillion.
>>8089282
>>8089313
>He hasn't accepted the Tyrant into his life
Don't worry, powindah, you're part of the Golden Path whether you like it or not
>>8089313
Oy vey, someone doesn't get their news from one of our companies?
>>8088798
All part of the plan, they scattered the old empire and made more refugees fleeing into the deepest depths of space.
Part of the point was to make sure that nobody with prescience could actually see the whole future anymore, the no-gene was designed to spread throughout humanity to make a large population invisible to prescience precisely so another Leto/Paul could never develop.
Or, saving that, the machines come back and there's an epic battle with robots and monsters on the machine world at the end of which duncan idaho goes into SUPER KWIZATZ HADERACH III mode and does the green colored ending to mass effect 3.
Well, I finished Dune and didn't care for it very much, but being the dumb asshole I am I also bought the three immediate sequels so I guess I am reading them now.
I have a question though, of the huge series continued by Brian Herbert, do any of the books focus on the spice smugglers? I think it'd be cool to see Arrakis from a less grand perspective, the everyman petty criminal smuggling spice for a living in harsh conditions.
>>8089893
Dune is just an intro that had to set up a million years of story (literally). you can't judge the series off the first book. at least after the second one let us know what you think
>>8089404
I feel like Duncan becoming a Super Being was probably one of the few things they actually got from Frank's notes. It just makes sense and could have been a cool ending.
I like to imagine the real ending involved Duncan ushering in an age of gestalt human consciousness taking humanity to the next stage of evolution.
I furthermore like to imagine resurrected Paul, Chani and their children opting out so as to live the humble life on a desert planet they never got to.
>>8088867
>>8088867
Pretty sure that middle picture never takes place in any of the books.
>>8090157
and the rest of it? Omnius, the Titans, giant robot battles? i somehow doubt Frank Herbert had any of that juvenile tosh in his notes.
