Starting with the greeks not because of meme, but because I want to understand history in-depth and see what ideas have sprung up
>spend your time reading others so you can understand easily what others have labored for
either way, at plato and it's draining at times
am I just being lazy or should I have another novel going to counteract the dryness?
am I just a pleb for life?
>pic related
any tips or tricks?
Currently on Theaetetus
>>8041508
>plato
>dry
never gonna make it
>>8041599
it's not the content that's dry, it's more like going so in-depth and repeating things over and over that it's tiring
its just like those people: just slowly talking about absolutely nothing and not getting to the point
>counteract the dryness
I will never understand this. It's a problem with your reading. There's nothing dry about Plato.
>>8041605
right now it just seems dry to me, but might just be mentally exhausted after exams
pls no bully
Get a good paper moisturizer
I opened that translation in a book shop and it was awful. It is exactly the translation of Plato you would expect from modern positivst autists who want to take all of the poetry and mysticism and contemplation out of Plato.
>>8041508
watch associated lectures. read essays. understand the character of socrates' interlocutors, and know that the dialogues are just that. the personalities of the characters cannot be ignored. socrates is appealing to many of their traits in order to convince them.
read deeply into every word. its written in simple language, but plato expects his readers to take commonplace words like "idea" or "form" to the maximum possible understanding.
i hope you have a decent bit of understanding of greek culture. and what greek virtue is in the context of ancient greece. youre reading this through a modern lense, you need lectures etc to give you the context required for understanding. much of plato is responding to the poets of the time. homer is an absolute minimum.
have you done the pedagogical euthyphro > apology > crito > phaedo > meno > symposium > republic ? get the allan bloom translation, read his essay, listen to bloom lectures on socrates. reading the complete works cover to cover is a little boring.
>novel
plato isnt writing a fucking novel.
the presocratics' ideas are imperative to understanding the history of western philosophy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yat0ZKduW18&index=1&list=PL9GwT4_YRZdBf9nIUHs0zjrnUVl-KBNSM
watch the yale polisci lectures on plato and aristotle.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y8_RRaZW5X3xwztjZ4p0XeRplqebYwpmuNNpaN_TkgM/pub
>>8041508
Did you start with homer?
You need to read homer, Herodotus, some greek histories written by greeks or romans, some greek plays.
Get a knowledge of the culture then hop into the philosophy
>>8041604
>just slowly talking about absolutely nothing and not getting to the point
Read the Phaedrus & Letter VII. You'll understand that for Plato that IS the point. You can't state anything of truth in writing, it comes down to the presentation of dialectical discourse.
After reading Plato I understood the distinction between the soul and the body, understood that the soul is separable from the body, accepted the possibility that the soul is immortal.
I could never be a materialist against after reading Plato.
The point of reading Plato is that he leads you through a dialectical argument slowly so that you become more and more conscious of your own mind's activity. The material world disappears from your consciousness. Then the dialogue reaches a stage of aporia or confusion, a state of contradiction; this is when your mind feels paralysed, and at this point you become distinctly aware that you have a mind and that it is something separate from matter. Then he leads you to the stage of contemplation.
No supporting texts or lectures or anything are required to read Plato. The whole point of Plato is that he directly addresses your own mind, your own soul. All you need to do is follow the dialogue earnestly.
>>8041508
You should pick up Myles Burnyeat's edition of the theatetus, the commentary is amazing.
On the whole, it may help to have some secondary literature, its a bit much to do on your own, especially when you get to aristotle. let me know if you want any advice.
qualifications: phd in philosophy. don't work in ancient but do work in history and have studied ancient with some of the best scholars in the world
>>8041851
Socrates certainly thought this, although I don't see any evidence that Plato thought this.
>>8041882
Should I go to graduate school for philsophy
>>8041890
Letter VII specifically 341b-345c
Here:
"So much at least I can affirm with confidence about any who have written or propose to write on these questions, pretending to a knowledge of the problems with which I am concerned, whether they claim to have learned from me or from others or to have made their discoveries for themselves: it is impossible in my opinion, that they can have learned anything at all about the subject. There is no writing of mine about these matters, nor will there ever be one. For this knowledge is not something that can be put into words like other sciences; but after long-continued intercourse between teacher and pupil, in joint pursuit of the subject, suddenly, like light flashing forth when a fire is kindled, it is born in the soul and straightaway nourishes itself"
341c-d
And before you pull the "well the letters weren't written by Plato", most modern scholars agree that of all the letters, the seventh is the most likely to be actually written by Plato due to an intimate knowledge of Plato's interactions with Dionysius of Sicily.
>>8041809
thanks for the insight
I'll check out the lectures
>reading the complete works cover to cover is a little boring
that is exactly what I was doing
>>8041815
I read the Odyssey a bit time ago, have the illiad on my kindle, although I haven't gotten far into it.
>>8041851
I remember reading this from somewhere, that you have to constantly think about what is said and that nothing is truth. It can be frustrating at times, but ultimately liberating
>>8041865
I can definitely feel this happening when I read. he leads you somewhere then abruptly cuts it off.
>>8041882
my current plan was just to read from cover to cover but that probably isn't ideal. What would you advise?
Thank you all for the replies
>>8041977
>I remember reading this from somewhere, that you have to constantly think about what is said and that nothing is truth. It can be frustrating at times, but ultimately liberating
What I find so wonderful about Plato is how he actually does motivate people into thinking for themselves, at least this is what I found. You can read the formal logic of Aristotle and begin to understand his view of matters, but that's it. Plato invites the reader to continue PAST the dialogue, to take up these questions for himself and begin a personal quest for understanding.
When I first read the Phaedrus I was blown away, truly. It's such a fascinating premise and it lead to me asking so many questions, not only about rhetoric and writing, but also of eros.
>>8041882
>You should pick up Myles Burnyeat's edition of the theatetus, the commentary is amazing.
Could you please give more translation recommendations?
>>8041969
Um, well. If you get into a good program, you love philosophy, and you would be happy getting a PhD even if you didn't get a job then its something to consider.
What's your background and what are you interested in?
>>8041977
it depends what you are interested in. i would cerainly recommend reading some of the early dialogues, the sophist, the symposium etc. but you obviously don't need to read everything.
>>8042006
of which authors and/or works?
>>8042003
>Phaedrus
the introduction of it looks interesting, I may just skip to this dialogue next
Part of the reason I'm having difficulty is that the current book order, with the subjects it deals with, don't stimulate me at the moment but I can imagine it will at a later date.
but for another question
has philosophy helped you?
>>8042008 or you?
>>8042020
Yeah philosophy has helped me, I love it, it's something I'm passionate about, and it's also my job.
>>8042026
could you go into detail as to how it's helped you?
I'm afraid that by reading these things it will only track me down into despair, or leave me hanging in uncertainty
>>8042020
Personally, I've never "looked" to philosophy for help. I'm not an expert by any means in anything philosophic. I read very few philosophers seriously, mostly Plato and Kierkegaard and select post-structuralists. I'm a Classics student, in addition to English Literature, and so I prefer to read ancient philosophy from the Classicist's perspective more than the Philosopher's. (I know, Plato would find it horrid.)
>>8042039
I'm not entirely sure how to answer that question. For probably the last 12 years most of my day-to-day life has been spent reading, writing and talking philosophy. I don't have any idea what I would be like if I had never gotten into it.
>>8041508
The professor I had for my introductory philosophy course did a great job explaining the material. I didn't understand much at first, but it makes all the difference if you have someone or something to elucidate the texts for you, because they're not meant to be an easy read.
Coursera is offering a course on Plato and some pre-socratics, and it's free.
>>8041809
>https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y8_RRaZW5X3xwztjZ4p0XeRplqebYwpmuNNpaN_TkgM/pub
How long has this google doc been going? Have we moved on from the wiki? Haven't been on /lit/ for a while.
If you arent starting with the sumerians you might as well stop reading.
>start with sumerians
>learn cuneiform
>read ancient tablets
>continue with egyptians (skip persians!)
>learn ancient egyptian
>read egyptian walls (must go there, if you can't = might as well stop here)
You must continue this until you've covered pretty much all important civilizations in the world up to this day and age. Only then you can start reading moden books
>>8041615
Which works have you read so far?
>>8042003
>What I find so wonderful about Plato is how he actually does motivate people into thinking for themselves, at least this is what I found. You can read the formal logic of Aristotle and begin to understand his view of matters, but that's it.
:I
>>8042012
Plato or Aristotle
Any of the Germans
Any major non-english works.
Just any translations that stand out to you as being good.
>>8041969
Not if the reason is that you're nearing the end of your undergraduate program and are just looking for something to do.
>>8042046
>I read very few philosophers seriously.... I'm a Classics student, in addition to English Literature
No need to be redundant.
>>8042579
>You must continue this until you've covered pretty much all important civilizations in the world up to this day and age
Forget anything east of Kabul.
Bunch of pseuds, the lot of them.
>>8041882
I really like philosophy and would like to get a phd. But im very worried about the jobs, will a phd just make me a potatofarmer??
>>8042905
Diogenes lived in a tub. Socrates was put to death. So was Boethius. Lady Philosophy only visits the truly devoted.
>start with the Greeks
>>8041599 desu. Plato's a lot more entertaining than Aristotle for example. If you don't understand his wit, intelligence, or humor maybe you should stick to John Green. Still hoping you'll pull through anon. At least you're attempting it.
>>8043097
Im with you, I just need a good argument to make my mom stop hating.
>>8043097
>So was Boethius.
boethius was a well paid politician though
>>8041735
underrated post
>>8043097
"Old lady philosophy, she's a real… you gotta hang on tight, y'know, because she... she—she bucks pretty hard..."
>>8041735
overrated post
>>8041969
Maybe this account of someone that did can help you:
http://verybadwizards.com/episodes/21
Note that if you read the response of the grad school guy here, listen to the the podcast episode of this one, maybe even ask your lecturers, you have only gotten two+ opinions from people that decided to stay.
You have to consult people who decided NOT to go to grad school, too, to get a full picture.
