What do you think of new sincerity? Is being genuine the best way to live?
horse masks are not new sincerity
they are faux sincerity
same with adult cartoons like adventure time
they are a secret irony 'you wouldn't expect a grown man to like this but i do!' that people think makes them interesting/cute/quirky
genuine sincerity, yes, it is a good way to live. reading ironic fiction does not however interfere with this. i can live passionately and genuinely while enjoying the very ironic works of barth and pynchon and vonnegut
I have been living a sincere life since I was born.
>>8034250
>horse masks are not new sincerity
>they are faux sincerity
>same with adult cartoons like adventure time
Absolutely this, sincerity comes from a willingness to recognize your own patheticness and suffering not disguising it around manchild pride
Being genuine and sincere is objectively the best way to live, but I feel like it's impossible with the current state of social alienation and how far the disease of post-modern insincerity has rotted out collective consciousness. There's a rising trend of faux-sincerity, as >>8034250 describes, but that's nothing more than using sincerity as another layer of insincerity to hide behind. I'm not exactly sure what, but something radical must change in order to allow true sincerity to be fostered in society, and New Sincerity feels like early Marxism in that it's begun far too soon for it to really accomplish it's goals, and pursuing it with the belief that you're truly being sincere is only going to further insincerity.
>>8034250
Pic was unrelated. Regardless, your analysis assumes that man does not genuinely identify as a horse.
>>8034245
Hyperirony is the only way to sincerity in 2016 simulation hell
>>8034245
It's got nothing on post-irony
>>8034303
Thats right, lets dig our way out of this pit
Also, if new sincerity is the path, doesn't that mean John Green is in a sense the second coming of DFW?
>>8034319
John Greene isn't remotely sincere, you're mistaking it with sentimentality.
You want sincerity look towards someone like Dostoevsky
New sincerity?
Isn't that the thing Shiah Labeouf invented?
'Just do it man!' Haha that's my favourite.
real question what is new sincerity and how does one manifest it?
I'm am not a well read man
>>8034245
Read "The Stranger" by Albert Camus. I've lived as "The Stranger" my entire life without realizing this book even existed. Sincere, genuine, not hiding your real feelings, connecting with people but not denying the meaninglessness of it. I've made friends, my family is strong, but being sincere with people doesn't work. I've realized this but I don't see a point in changing. The people who like me and continue to like me for me are the people who I am glad stay with me in life but the people who can't handle my sincerity often start to dislike me over time. People don't want other people to be sincere with them, they want other people to conform to their ideas and feel the way they feel about things. I think, from my perception, other people feel threatened by someone who speaks their mind on any topic honestly. Its a disarming personality. I've been told by my closest friends that they know that when I say something I mean it and that they shouldn't test me. This is a social stigma, being adamant to yourself and your feelings, because others see that you're not on their side and when they feel you aren't on their side of things they feel neglected or scorned. If you choose to split things into "sides" you can see that on some issues you will be on opposite sides of things and when it comes to bigger issues, if your feelings are not the same as a friends or a lovers on a major issue, they can see this as a slight and it can weaken your relationship or destroy it entirely, but being sincere means letting this issue destroy that friendship or relationship because you are true to yourself no matter how much pain it might bring you and you will be stronger for it.
Metamodernism is like what you're talking about but it's legit social commentary/theory based in reality instead of an epic mystical memefest for fiction fans so /lit/ doesn't care.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH6zJULTVgQ
>>8034250
>adult cartoons like adventure time
He made it for kids. Its not his fault adults watch it.
>>8034245
sincerity is impossible under late capitalism
remember it's all fake
>>8034328
>i live, i burn with life, i love, i slay, and am content
>>8034340
I won't challenge your personality, because it sounds quite admirable, but is it possible that people are more put off by a personality that seems adverse to persuasion and change? In short, a lack of open mindedness?
Strong convictions are never a bad thing, but not being open to the possibility of a different perspective sounds quite close-minded.
>>8034342
>/lit/ hey guys forget about atoms, calculus, propinquity or any other bs they teach at your bs government school
>this dead guy from two hundred years ago wrote a book that says I'm smarter than you because farming villages in rural Bulgaria are really being exploited their feudal leaders which proves god isn't real but ghosts definitely are.
>oh you disagree? You're just butt mad fedora tipping STEM cuck
>did I mention I am very smart? Ask my mom and therapist. It's all I talk about
Sometimes I think this board is just /x/ number 2.
>>8034361
m8 I get the feeling you didn't understand me
I'm a not-too-bright person who hasn't read a lot of interesting books in his life
you need to talk to me straight
>>8034245
There's no need for a new sincerity. We're already sufficiently sincere. Look at people like that Sam Lynch guy (is that his name?) He's hip irony incarnate and everyone hates him.
>>8034362
I am open to the possibility of a change. I would change if given reason to change. Being adaptable is important but keeping true to what you know is right is more important. The key word is know, if you are convinced that what you think is right is wrong then you must change for you have been proven wrong. If I am shown to be wrong I accept it.
>>8034328
It comes out of the irony in modernism and postmodernism, came about in the 90's and 00's with films like Field of Dreams and anything by Zach Braff, examples in lit are DFW and Johnathan Franzen. One way to think about it is that they set themselves up for something ironic but instead they are sincere, Field of Dreams could have been some big joke but it was so he could play catch with his dad again and have people relive their childhood memories.
>>8034245
Irony-sincerity is a non-issue for pseudo-intellectuals and half-wits to scratch their brains through their ears over.
>>8034380
Again, I'm glad you agree that possessing an open-mind is important.
I think I've just read one too many Buddhist works at this point, I find it difficult to become too attached to any one viewpoint. Life is transient, as are the beliefs we hold.
>>8034364
>this dead guy from two hundred years ago wrote a book that says I'm smarter than you because farming villages in rural Bulgaria are really being exploited their feudal leaders which proves god isn't real but ghosts definitely are.
sounds fascinating. title?
>>8034387
Do you not realise if we solve the issues of irony and sincerity then hermeneutics demarcate epistemically the continental postmodern analytical please keep giving me tax dollars to live I have nothing to offer anyone and cannot survive on my own.
Philosophy is super important man if we don't solve these issues who knows what could happen.
People might go to school to learn actual real and useful skills instead of going to push air around and flash gang signs.
Gives me the willies just thinking about it.
>>8034409
You sure are shameless accepting NEET bux to study sophistry and who can yell the loudest.
Meanwhile in India Ishmael's just got himself a double degree in computer science and medicine.
>try to practice genuine sincerity
>friends start thinking I'm gay and trying to hit on them
>>8034392
And I admire that belief that all our beliefs and the world are transient. How I find my meaning for living and going on in life and my motivation for living is through my belief that everything we do and think is meaningless but in the end its the meaning we give these meaningless things that is our meaning for living. It would be impossible to live if we just accept that everything is meaningless and short and left it at that. However short everything is, I choose to try and love every minute of it, hate creeps in and can make a nest but I've come to realize that life is too short to let hate nest, love doesn't last as long as hate does so I tend to cherish that love and be grateful for even having it after its gone. Gratitude is a huge part of life that most people overlook. Gratitude can give meaning to the meaningless and can open a path to feeling better in the future. Depression doesn't go away but Gratitude can give a little leeway for happiness. I don't know if that means anything to anyone else but if it makes you feel anything or if you feel you can take anything from this I'm happy and if you have any input or thoughts I'd love to hear them.
>>8034424
fucking this
I can't be legitimately nice to my male friends because they start to think I'm a faggot
>>8034423
Sounds like a lot of projecting your own self loathing going on there mate, admitting your own insecurities is the first step to sincerity
>>8034437
Nice meme response friendo.
Can't tell if clever troll who knows how frustrating generic thoughtless insults are or just stupid.
>>8034445
Relax man, you're among friends, we are like you. Take a breather and let out the pain thats behind this hate, what have you studied? Did you get to study at all?
>>8034437
>You're just projecting because you think you're so cool also you're jealous of me and you want to kill your father and sleep with your mother I can tell all this because I went to one day of psych 101
>I also call skinny people fat because I think that's how insults work
>>8034456
have you never had that weird male friendship with anyone where you never say nice things to each other, rather insult each otehr all the time but at the same time know that it's all good between you two?
>>8034458
Oh I get it you're being nice and sincere.
I just saw the word projecting and thought you were one of those 4chan guys who literally just parrots insults, instead of thinking up one that is actually relevant, and acts like they're real cutting and personal.
They use the word 'projecting' a lot you see.
Sorry ignore me.
>you never say nice things to each other, rather insult each otehr all the time but at the same time know that it's all good between you two
this is male friendship
>>8034486
>this is male friendship
precisely, that's why acting nice looks weird
>>8034245
>new sincerity is about being sincere
>people who ascribe to it feel the need to label themselves as sincere in order to appear sincere
>this somehow is not disingenuous
>>8034364
wtf are you on about? did you even watch the video?
>>8034577
Nice dubs friendo.
Have a (You).
>>8034328
Listen to mumford and sons
>>8034613
I am no longer interested in new sincerity then
>>8034384
Can you think of anymore examples?
>>8034245
there is a category of expression, or no, there is a more general class of second or even third order emotional awarenesses, which, due to the complexity of the methods of conduction by which it arises, the nature of the topics on which it wishes to speak, and its general distance from the bestial emotional appetites which govern the "self" [as it is considered in any "genuine" sense or intrinsically "real" state of being] from which it originates, that it necessitate expression as a form of irony, or, it might better be said: something which must be attributed to an abstraction of the self, or at times an abstraction of an abstraction of the self, if it wishes to express itself effectively
and it is though such expression that the finer, more substantive, commentaries on what it means "to be" arise
new sincerity, to the extent that it says anything at all, says, "free me from these distressing and confusing layers of implication and deference! validate my base sensory appetites as the end all be all of human awareness, for to do otherwise makes me feel artificial by comparison!"
>>8034286
>Being genuine and sincere is objectively the best way to live,
exactly the kind of absurd, baseless statement a beast wallowing dejectedly in its first order emotions would oink at the world
>>8034245
Lost all my friends and gf when I did new sincerity
Yes it did expose people only liked me because I stopped down to their level of retarded family guy irony
My gpa has gone up and now I'm fwb with this older chick who's s hairdresser but is obsessed with morrisey
Sex is good but she's a headache
/lit/ keeps me sane
>>8034359
Make like the bee and buzz off
>>8034781
this is actually poorly written
I remember Zizek talking against it in some speech saying that its all the message underneath that counts. He gives the example of British dry humour where you tell your wife she is a slut or something but you know its all just surface and that you really love eachother
But old sincerity is still good, right?
>>8034862
nope all the verbal agreements check out and the clausal chains are immaculate in their modifications
I'm sure you mean it is poorly structured
>>8034319
John green is not sincere. He's a bitch. Being sincere means telling the truth, not cowtowing to what everyone else likes.
What countries are sincere and have SMART people who care about its direction? Is it only nordic countries? Slavic? Idk so tell me. Canada?
>>8035040
I think you are confusing the word sincere with some foggy notion of progressive humanism with the national construct at its operative core
>>8035059
Yea maybe but my question still stands
>>8034245
It's bs
>>8034323
Notes From the Underground is essentially a big ironic FYAD post making fun of GBSers who somehow have convinced themselves that the rest of society suffers from some deep inauthenticity and inability to live directly and sincerely like them
>>8034340
I can't even begin to connect the mental dots you must've to make The Stranger into a book about the virtues of living sincerely
>I think, from my perception, other people feel threatened by someone who speaks their mind on any topic honestly. Its a disarming personality.
lol I think you need to read notes from the underground
>>8034384
>Field of Dreams could have been some big joke but it was so he could play catch with his dad again and have people relive their childhood memories.
exactly! new sincerity is about infantilism at its core
>>8034384
Wow I was never able to pinpoint why I liked that movie so much but this explains it so well. Would I be wrong in saying The Princess Bride and Forrest Gump also sort of fit that category?
>>8035119
Also Big Fish
If you care about how sincerely you live your life, you probably don't live it THAT sincerely
>>8035088
>Notes From the Underground is essentially a big ironic FYAD post making fun of GBSers who somehow have convinced themselves that the rest of society suffers from some deep inauthenticity and inability to live directly and sincerely like them
Are you sure? I've always hated it because I thought it exploits and glorifies this r9k mentality you've described
>>8035116
Which of course stems from Jesus' teachings.
"I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven." - Matthew 18:3
>>8034286
Hopefully millions of people won't be put to death for the sake of New Sincerity.
...But then again, who cares?
>>8034310
I'm surprised that I've never seen that picture of Harold Bloom before.
>>8035171
I don't think the point of Notes is to glorify that mentality. That's a bit like saying that the point of Crime and Punishment is to pay homage to the promising life one can have under Nihilism.
>>8035040
Canada is NOT sincere. All that "politeness" is a ruse because you can't alienate your neighbours in this edge of wilderness society (look up the 'garrison mentality'). People here are incredibly passive aggressive.
>>8035040
Russia seems to be the only sincere nation these days as far as I'm concerned. Probably because their leader actually has a spine. That'll all change when Trump is elected though. Get ready patriots, we're about to enter a golden age.
>>8035281
Ha-ha
>>8034781
There's no previous "finer, more substantive, commentaries" which aren't created by the same processes by which they arise from their speaker. Those points on what it means to be, are not more accurate, but rather more eloquent, and more likely to make others become incapable of answering; all you are doing is imposing on others by a more developped discourse, out of a fear of rejection as irrelevant, you attack all thinkable outcomes in an attempt to not be hurt. You are poofing it up. You are postponing. But those words do not make your emotions less rooted on "bestial emotional appetites" for being more removed. What you are, is afraid, and what you lack isn't courage, but the patience and tranquility to express what you feel in a way that will not get you in trouble; and to get that, you must simply do away with the pressing need to express it.
>>8035274
pretty sure Jesus was being ironic when he said that
I'm lying to everyone I know
>>8034975
Old sincerity is the only true sincerity. New sincerity does not have the foundation of the old sincerity, and so it can't have the kind of power that old sincerity does.
Pic very much related.
>>8035171
try reading it again, but imagine it as it has been described in that post
maybe put it inside a text balloon on a pink background if you think that would help
>>8035366
You're a fool for trusting words at all.
>>8035337
Come here to Brazil then.
>>8035068
I crie ebry tim
>>8035366
So is everyone else.
>>8035350
>but rather more eloquent, and more likely to make others become incapable of answering; all you are doing is imposing on others by a more developped discourse
I can agree with this. And I'm certainly not trying to silence anybody. But what are you proposing as an alternative? Exclusion is a fact of life, and the degree to which you can disembody the spoken from the speaker in order to communicate effectively is one of the least tangible material divides among humans, though it may in a round-about way affect the development of those material divides. It's a pretty sharp mental divide, in my opinion, but, but even the most sincere among us engage in rigorous and highly selective mental segregation - which is why you're not out discussing this with a homeless man nor are you having this discussion with a PhD holder in a reviewed journal.
As far as your fear stuff goes, I really think you are missing whatever point it was I was making. I fear banality.
>>8035434
>Exclusion is a fact of life
Exclusion from what?
>But what are you proposing as an alternative?
I already said it. Be calm. If you don't make a big thing out of your issues there's no reason why you should be turned down. People listen to tone more than anything, so even if you are giving God's truth on love and you're screaming, you will only give them a violent emotion--and powerful, heart touching statements are much more poignant when they aren't trying to be powerful.
Be personal, be understanding, don't dumb it down, but don't try to be so specific, don't try to convince. It's something that is sublime, there's no need to treat it as a war. Care for the way people act or will act upon your words, not how they are affected by them; the world doesn't end at your tongue.
>even the most sincere among us engage in rigorous and highly selective mental segregation
I'm not talking about sincerity--eloquent statements aren't different, they both express the same reality. And statements done violently aren't good, no matter how simple. There's no need to leave the selection process out completely, so much as let it act in the right means. Don't be at war with yourself and you won't be at war with the world.
>I fear banality.
Banality is simply a lack of prestige, and a lack of prestige is a lack of social importance. The point is not to be worried more than you need be about it. What do you need to be listened to, anyway?
>the degree to which you can disembody the spoken from the speaker in order to communicate effectively is one of the least tangible material divides among humans, though it may in a round-about way affect the development of those material divides.
See, now you just have me wondering what you are saying, even though it's probably not that complex.
...is there really such a thing as "new sincerity" and "old sincerity"?
>>8035040
Israel fits that description exactly. Israelis keeps it so real, it gets them in trouble.
Too bad everybody hates Jews
>>8035040
Switzerland?
How do I become sincere? I only lie.
>>8034264
Fa sho, it's like that hoe in "The depressed person"
How do I lie? I'm only sincere.
>>8034245
An honest person doesn't have to remember what he said or plan out what he's going to say
>>8034250
>>8034264
I disagree..The point of shaking the president's hand while wearing a horse mask is to lower the meeting of a president to a joke.
It ridicules the aura of "the president".
I dont know what the wearer of the mask was thinking but that is the end result of this picture.
The presidentcy and the president lose their official aura..
A meeting with the president is something to admire, something to desire, like a meeting with some hoolywood celebirty.
This must be put down, this godly worship.
Its something that was expressed by Benjamin 80 years back but in many ways it still exists, especially when it comes to individuals since obviously, axcess to an individual is restricted and thus revered.
>>8034340
Sounds like you are a pretencious twat.
A relationship with others means a change in both.
Means compromising both your points of view towards a shared one.
Its ok if you dont want to do it but i disagree this is an admirable trait.
Perhaps for readers of Ayn Rand.
A person's oppinions ae not irrational even if that person is not you.
Each person has his ideas about ho things are and should be and its a result of that person's personal life eperiences and conclusions.
If you cannot understand it and sympathize with it thats ok but of course if you couldnt do it at all you would NOT have any friends except those predisposed towards opressing themselves for others.
This might be the kind of people you attract..
Those willing to share your point of view even thought you will not share theirs.
>>8034352
>authorial intent
bend over so i can welcome you to /lit/
>>8036432
nah
>>8036432
lol no, what this does is the opposite, it enforces the illusion Obama wants to be a friendly personal guy and not actually a calculatting politician
>>8036432
I disagree, nobody worships the president. People take meeting the president seriously, maybe this guy brightened obama's day which would be a good use of the mask, but if he is just in it for the lolrandom attention factor then it represents the slow death of overactive media and consumer culture rather than a denial of the the fast, hot death of cult worship of the highest office in the country.
>>8036451
Except it does mean being nice if you are a nice person and acting nice is natural to you
>>8034245
There is nothing new about sincerity, except in an artificial society.
>>8036476
Yes, people do worship the president and meeting with the president, perhaps not those that disagree with obama but those that do do worship him.
The others worhip their own candidate..
A picture of this sort turns an official meeting with the president into a joke, it puts it down to the level of nonesense, perhaps not even obama but the presidency and as a role.
>>8036495
But don't you see that the meeting itself was a joke to begin with, its a perfomative act which makes people think the president is on the level and happy to shake hands with the smelly masses and its not just a part of the job of keeping a persona alive. There's nothing subversive going on there and you're naive to think so
>living sincerly
Can there be an dumber thing?
Its an artistic movement, a way to create fiction.
You dont live it...
You dont disregard social codes and cues.
There are many things that revovle around feelng comfterble with another and knowing he has no malicious desires towards you.
Social codes are expected ways of communication that allow people to measure each other up without compromising themselves.
Just because many 4channers suffer from social enxiety and dont know how to handle these codes or tranmit them themselves it does not mean the world is wrong and is not ready for your sincerity.
It just means you have a problem with societ interaction and you need more practice.
in short, stop being retarded neets.
>>8036502
No you moron that i a result of a regualr photoshoot with the president shaking people's hands.
This debases the "meeting or shaking hands with THE PRESIDENT" into a joke.
Whether it was planned or not makes no difference, its funny and maybe the compaing managers thought it would make obama look like a "your kinda guy" guy but tha doesnt matter because the ned result is the debasing of the presidency.
You guys don't seem to understand what is meant by the New Sincerity. It is to courageously stick with values, truth, integrity, ethics, and to staunch proclaim certain things as true and good and be serious when you do it. Even against all the impotent cynics, and post modern relativism.
You guys as a group ultimately fail at Sincerity as it is intended as a new worldview. You're mostly still stuck in either hyper individualism, greed, selfishness, or moral relativism and worse even nihilism.
In some ways it's exactly what is meant by Nietszche in terms of value creation. We've destroyed the old ones, and can't simply go back, but we can build a new road to them, in different ways, and even honestly integrate new values and modes of compassionate living.
But, anytime anyone around here actually starts to approximate the Ubermensch, every little sheeple starts to bring them down, herd mentality.
>>8036548
Well he's no ubermensch is the herd brings him down is he.
>>8036548
are you sure you're not conflating new sincerity with absolutist ethics?
>>8034424
>>8034432
>>8034456
>>8034471
>>8036451
>>8036481
I've observed this pattern of conversation too. I have a small circle of friends (maybe roughly 10 people) who are extremely caustic in their interaction with each other and almost exclusively talk among themselves via sardonic insults, sarcasm, ironic shit-posting (through text or online conversation) and banter that rips on each other. They also tend to hold cynical and grim perspectives on the norms followed by people outside the circle and the people of the society that they interact with (general normative behavior of peers, adults etc). They use emoji and shitty gifs ironically as a means of deliberate ironic shitposting.
This is in stark contrast with other groups of friends that I've seen who talk to each other much more jovially and unironically. The other groups laugh and tease each other and go out, post pictures on Facebook, "take group photos" and have thriving social lives and overuse emoji unironically. People who wouldn't squirm or feel uncomfortable when saying to their friends things like "I'm glad to have you as a friend".
I wonder if "irony" as talked about in context with "new-sincerity" and by david foster wallace applies to conversational style. (I've only heard it being talked about pertaining to media and culture and literature). If it does, then I think the group I'm in might fall under it.
My attempts at some sort of sincerity (and sincere displays of camaraderie or friendship) are sort of mocked and quickly dismissed as "gay" (with the word used ironically obviously since they're not actually homophobic at all). I wonder if if this camaraderie will exists only under a layer of wry sarcastic banter because not many of us developed as socially well adjusted people close to the norm with optimism and rosy perspectives on things.
>>8036516
>Can there be a dumber thing?
>You don't live it...
>tl;dr stop being retarded neets
This isn't about social interaction you short-sighted idiot. "New Sincerity" is DFW appeal to the clear lack of integrity in western society.
>You don't live it
Yes, you fucking do. You have to live with integrity to be sincere - that is the fucking crux of the matter. Otherwise it exactly is an artistic, pretentious, middle class, hobbyist, college student fad!
>>8036466
This, there are layers.
>>8036593
Sounds like dysfunctional people coming together and enabling one another. Instead of facing themselves and growing, they all stagnate together. /lit/ can be a little of that too.
>>8036636
I mean precisely develop social relationships. If they can't even be intimate with their friends, that is dysfunctional. Love,compassion, charity are the signs of maturity. What you describes is ironic dweebs who are stagnating and not growing towards a person who is good and develop. The kind of person that enriches the world truly, and not simply with ironic shit posting.
>>8036611
I suspect that by dysfunctional you simply mean "far from the social norm" and by "Growing" you mean fitting into the generic social norms.
They're all good at academics and are sort of successful at securing their careers and good future prospects. They however suck at dating and developing close relationships with women or people outside their circle (those who're a bit close to the unironic social norm).
What do you mean by "grow and not stagnate" if not by "shifting close to the generic average social behavior"? I think their conversational style developed in response to the disdain they have for the average person and the want to distance themselves from his/her habits.
>>8036593
Jesus christ my life and friends are just like that. How do I escape?
Nobody's actually sincere, least of all the retarded manchild in the picture. Actually the guy in the horse mask is probably worse.
Being sincere about something entails a vulnerability most people aren't comfortable displaying. See the thing about being called gay if you're genuine with your friends. If you're willing to show vulnerability you learn quickly that somebody's gonna hit it, practically on reflex.
It's interesting that 4chan, the place where you can post anything you want and nobody'll ever know who you are, is the worst place for this. See this entire board. Everybody just memes about books and says everything sucks because genuinely enjoying a book and expressing your enjoyment puts you at risk of somebody on the internet calling you a faggot.
The real faggots are the ones whose feelings are too dainty to risk expressing real emotion, so they smirk and kek at any kind of genuine expression they see. It's the crab in a bucket thing. Put ten crabs in a bucket and if any one of them tries to climb out the rest will pull it back in.
Being a retard in public and putting on sincerity talismans re: >>8034250 is not sincere, it's just a different layer of irony and bullshit.
how is post irony different than new sincerity different than just growing up and no longer being just a cynical prick
>>8036739
It's not.
>>8036734
so is sincerity possible? what would sincerity look like under ur model anon
>>8034250
I wouldn't even have thought that horse mask is supposed to be an example of sincerety. I'm just assuming the guy under the mask is "lol, look how funny I am" and doesn't really stand for the horse mask - it's odd and he knows it and he'd directly or indirectly distance himself from the mask as soon as you speak with him about that Obama coup.
>>8034286
>has rotted out collective consciousness
Can you explain? What was lost?
>>8036734
>Being sincere about something entails a vulnerability most people aren't comfortable displaying
Good point, thx.
>Everybody just memes about books and says everything sucks because genuinely enjoying a book and expressing your enjoyment puts you at risk of somebody on the internet calling you a faggot.
I don't think I'm afraid, if I'm not associated with other posts at least. I.e. I think I achieve using the anonymity fully.
In fact, I don't even care all that much about people calling me a faggot. I mean I still care, but if I like something (I'm mostly a /sci/ user) and I write about it and say I like it, I'm not extremely shaken by it if someone says it's bad. I know why I like it.
I will admit that for many things, I like them but I don't know their real use - and I don't like if people say I waste my time on something.
But this just brings me down to my lives purpose in general.
>>8034257
>/prog/
I miss it, anon.
>>8034376
This. I think people are crying out for sincerity just because they refuse to admit that this is what sincerity looks like. Pure, unbridled self interest. Social conformity. Tribalism. Naievity. Passivity. This is the best we can do.
>>8036641
>Love,compassion, charity are the signs of maturity
you think this is new sincerity?.
>>8036593
not necessarily better or worse than the normies which aren't being exactly sincere either. Being aware of world's fundamental insincerity won't help u be sincere. The rituals of friendship, group photos, sharing vaguely moralising content on social media and defining identity through mass culture commodities, those things will always make you feel at least somewhat alienated. If you take an ironic attitude towards it you may get a laugh or two out of it, maybe even an illusory sense of superiority, but in the end you are just as miserable as always. It's a trap you can't escape.
>>8036548
I can live without believing in some old morals, be honest about it and also not be cynical.
It doesn't have to be about old values - only authenticity.
>>8036918
It is. How do you interpret it?
>>8036839
What I take form this thread, a summary:
According to DFW, (postmodern?) irony and reaction is poisonous.
A function of expressing yourself ironically, and thereby distancing yourself form the content,
is that you protect yourself from being attacked.
But it also takes away meaning.
The idea is that narratives dressed in an ironic fashion have become the standard mindset (at least from the 80's onwards).
People tell stories and distance themselves from the content at the same time.
E.g. write a sitcom about people where you don't want to be or represent any of the characters.
But it already starts with groups of friends that only allow for ironic use of emoji,
and other people, maybe your parents, who use them genuinely.)
Q: Why is it really so bad?
Q: Is the sitcom thing really a good example? Or have I maybe explained it badly?
What does sincere really mean?
Then, I think:
- Avoid cynic thinking/talking and don't even let ironic thinking/talking water down your purpose.
Remark: It doesn't mean you can't enjoy any sincere works or be ironic sometimes.
- Being open about your vulnerabilities.
Caution: You must be capable of owning them, otherwise you just hurt yourself this way.
Remark: In the act of displaying vulnerability without fear,
the negative aspect of you exhibiting the vulnerability is actually reduced.
- Being truthful to other about a) your purpose and b) what you think is the case.
Caution:
Don't make them feel threatened and against them!
Being honest shall not come at the expense of splitting with people.
It's a balance to work on.
- Jesus is extremely sincere and wouldn't make ironic comments, but being like Jesus isn't a condition for being sincere.
Being sincere and not unnecessarily rude doesn't at all mean being ``nice'' or having to express your feeling for people all the time.
For example, friendly banter under men is making fun of guys to bond with them without having to analyze ones friendship.
>>8037068
>What does sincere really mean?
>Then, I think:
>- Avoid cynic thinking/talking and don't even let ironic thinking/talking water down your purpose.
>Remark: It doesn't mean you can't enjoy any sincere works or be ironic sometimes.
>- Being open about your vulnerabilities.
>Caution: You must be capable of owning them, otherwise you just hurt yourself this way.
>Remark: In the act of displaying vulnerability without fear,
>the negative aspect of you exhibiting the vulnerability is actually reduced.
>- Being truthful to other about a) your purpose and b) what you think is the case.
>Caution:
>Don't make them feel threatened and against them!
>Being honest shall not come at the expense of splitting with people.
>It's a balance to work on.
>- Jesus is extremely sincere and wouldn't make ironic comments, but being like Jesus isn't a condition for being sincere.
>Being sincere and not unnecessarily rude doesn't at all mean being ``nice'' or having to express your feeling for people all the time.
>For example, friendly banter under men is making fun of guys to bond with them without having to analyze ones friendship.
This is a really good way of living I have been trying to adapt for quite some time.
>>8036918
new sincerity? aren't these just values a good person should have?
>>8036516
>Its an artistic movement, a way to create fiction.
>You dont live it...
Anyone know of any decent books released in the last 20 years dealing with this as a major theme?
>>8037105
Exactly, most ironic shitbutts prefer to pretend it doesn't matter, or all good is posturing, and to protect themselves make fun of it.
Maturity is to pursue the good sincerely. Too many have become enraptured with the self and false morality.
>>8037150
ugh don't you think you'd be more at home on a site like upworthy
>>8036593
>>8036719
Don't be a little bitch and stick to your emotions. Don't back down. There's nothing wrong about what you're feeling, it's a good thing to feel that way and your friends are sick for being incapable of dealing with it. Don't participate in the harm. If you want to be sad when they tell you it, be sad to the point where they can't keep throwing shit at you; if you want to argue back, then tell them why they're being faggots and laugh at their faces. Don't be afraid to be alone, it's MUCH worse to feel lonely around others than by yourself; if they can't become whole people then get new friends.
>>8037166
Oh, and get it through your friends' heads that putting a lit cigaratte in your eye will still leave you blind, irony or not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcFKlEfu_eU
>>8036593
Sounds weird, anon. My entire circle of friends is based around constant conflict of ideas, believes and taste. We're kind forced to be sincere with each other so we can coexist and communicate. We're jovial and enthusiastic about our friendship, and irony and memes is just another flavor. I can't even begin to understand how it can be the core.
I mean, how to you have an argument ironically? Or do you guys just not argue at all?
Is dat boi sincere or ironic?
>>8037204
All those dank memes like dat boi are masturvatory irony
this thread is embarrasing
for a succesful and plentiful adult life you should understand that both irony and sincerity are fine as long as you're in moderation. you don't have to thank the sun for being beautiful when you wake up and you dont have to pretend to want someone to hit you with a car either
>>8037207
Before Amanda Bynes... There was...
>>8037204
It's a signifier without any real point of reference it's no longer sincere, ironic or even post-ironic but something else entirely
>>8037220
The meme so supreme it became the American dream.
Does anyone have that picture that explains the difference between sincere sincerity, ironic sincerity, sincere irony, and ironic irony?
>>8037222
check'd
"new" sincerity would probably kill off alot of kids who rely on ironic "memes" to fuel a personality for them. Like vaporwave and h3h3 type of folks.
Being authentic is the best way to live. You can certainly be authentic without being sincere. You can express parts of yourself through irony moreso than through sincerity.
>>8037362
>Not liking vaporwave sincerely.
Brah, end-of-the-century aesthetics are way too iconic to just be let to rot. Plus vaporwave actually has tons of interesting ramifications, such as the sterility of perfection, simulation, separation, fakeness vs. originality, cross cultural contact and otherness, and, let's never forget, Memes--memes are actually a truly interesting concept which receives a ton of needless stigma from way-too-serious folks.
This thread is so underage
>>8037425
How so?
>>8037425
Let things grow, will you?
>>8037068
Relevant DFW quote:
“What passes for hip cynical transcendence of sentiment is really some kind of fear of being really human, since to be really human [...] is probably to be unavoidably sentimental and naïve and goo-prone and generally pathetic.”
I've recently realised that there has been a massive shift in the way the narratives are constructed in poetry in the last hundred years or so. Nowadays poetry where the lyrical I represents the author who speaks openly to the reader without hidding behind some type of mask is considered to be too straightforward. Decadent poets may come as somewhat "edgy" to most people, but when you think about it, the only reason for it is that they express their feelings sincerely. If you were to rewrite those emotions in indirect poetry (I don't know how to translate it, sorry) or use mask, no one would bat an eye.
>>8037457
Late DFW is unbearable. To say what to be "really human" means is as bad as his "hey other people actually exist as much as you" this is water bullshit.
>>8037393
never said I didn't like it
but you have to admit this new post irony online meme thing is the personality for that "scene"
just type vaporwave on instagram and look at these kids pages. it's quite interesting
been doing research on /mu/ and /fit/ communities and users
>>8037476
He just said that we use cynism to distance ourselves from weaknesses, which are an inherent part of every person.
What you don't agree with?
I share almost all their cynicism and sardonic, wry humor (although I'm not as good at it as they are) but am attempting to shed most of it.
>>8036930
>If you take an ironic attitude towards it you may get a laugh or two out of it, maybe even an illusory sense of superiority, but in the end you are just as miserable as always. It's a trap you can't escape.
I figured. Hence my attempts at sincerity to incorporate some sort of depth to conversation but it never works and it's shut down by the same ironic, sarcastic banter. On the other hand I do share their disdain for the rituals of social norm (taking group photos or defining identity through mass culture commodities). So as you said, I'm stuck in some sort of purgatory where I have to choose between cynicism and normative naivety.
>>8037166
Tbh I share a lot of their cynicism and am unconfortable being completely sincere but I'm making the attempt to shed the irony, sarcasm and the sardonic, wry banter that dominates almost all of our conversation. Even if I manage to get an argument going, it is difficult to sustain it since they quickly lose interest in a prolonged debate/argument and introduce levity some way or the other which opens room for the usual dry irony. In fact this has made it sort of difficult to talk about serious things and I can noticeably see them being guarded or reserving from expressing any sincere emotion explicitly with each other.
>>8037195
it is difficult to sustain a serious argument/debate for more than a few minutes. it's mostly just banter and sarcasm and digs at each other and shared ironic shitposting. what sort of conflict in ideas, beliefs and tastes do you argue about? examples?
>>8037518
How is distancing ourselves from weakness any less inherent than the weaknesses themselves?
>>8037512
Is that really a particularity of vaporwave though? There's always been people who are only trying to be trendy or don't "get it" with any movement/fad, no?
>>8037700
>I'm stuck in some sort of purgatory where I have to choose between cynicism and normative naivety.
Why don't you take a third option? Adopt what you see fit from either view and disregard what you don't want.
>>8037700
What's bad about group fotos? To remember stuff and so on.
Anyway, I'd not invest and try to change this group. Just start out differently with people who are less inclined to this ironic banter.
PS: I also have some ironic circles. I think in my case (and I think the idea extends) this style of conversation is done to keep the (externally defined) power of different people on the same level.
Otherwise the group would break apart right there. I figure this is the reason old circles of friends wall into some kind of mode where the roles and expected talk is completely predictable - it arises because people grow away from each other with their lives. They then search for a common denominator and the rest is talked about by keeping a distance, not to offend anyone in the group.
If 2 people in a group of 5 make good money, or if one of them gets lots of pussy and another one is a virgin, they will all have to censor themselves or mask their inferiority with ironic acknowledgement that shields off that they feel bad about themselves.
>>8034245
Irony and sincerity are both necessary, I think. If you take everything seriously, you'll probably kill yourself out of pure horror. If you take nothing seriously, you'll probably kill yourself out of boredom. Find a balance, apply sincerity to things that make you happy, use irony to deal with the rest of it.
>>8035088
>Everyone is as smart as you, you're just narcissistic xD
Ok, go outside and try to explain this discussion to the first person you find. Then come back and tell me how thoughtful and self-aware the average person is. Not saying I'm smart, I'm just saying most people live much more unexamined lives than your average /lit/ poster, simply because people on this website tend to be those who don't fit in and therefore engage in more analysis of themselves and the world.
>>8035158
This is pretty much the opposite of true.
>>8034310
Yes, if you dig deep enough you will eventually make it to the other side of the Earth
>>8038348
>>8037425
>>8038348
But sincerity isn't even about how you perceive information, as you suggest.
It's about how you act, in relation with what you believe (in).
>>8036593
I was in a situation similar to yours, I decided to act sincerely because I kept getting out-bantered and I felt stupid. Now that I'm a bit older I can enjoy their company without feeling insecure, which is nice. Honestly, people like that are fine, I can certainly relate to them much better than "normal" people. But if you want real relationships, find those who are able to understand and use irony without being consumed by it. Or just hang out with your ironic friends and have everyone get pretty drunk, the sincerity will surface before too long.
>>8038435
Oh, right. Well, it's probably better for humanity in general if people act sincerely. There are plenty of massive but fixable problems with the world, and if we cared about them we wouldn't waste time on irony.
If you're just talking about the best way to act in relation to your own happiness and mental health, I'd say finding a balance is a good idea. Irony can be useful in that it just provides a bit of levity, as long as there's no genuine hate behind it. But sincerity is necessary to prevent you from losing your beliefs and identity to irony.
>>8034359
drone detected
>>8035171
lol. how could you possibly come to that conclusion
i think the stranger on the other hand is totally sincere + an author self insert
>>8036466
this, it is ironic + insincere on multiple levels
>>8036450
>A person's oppinions ae not irrational
no
I'm not sure if you should be taking life advice from a guy who killed himself.
>>8038449
that's the main reason alcohol is popular. it gives people an excuse to talk about bullshit seriously and sincerly
>>8037068
The only good thing I got out of reading pomo shit for critical theory was from Baudrillard, the idea that a perfect facsimile destroys the original.
If I acknowledge that it's possible to be ironic, to display all the features of holding some idea without actually holding it, then nothing I do can ever be truly genuine again.
If I ironically like something and realize other people are serious about it, I just pretend it's serious. If I seriously like something and everyone else is being ironic, I'll just pretend I'm being ironic too.
>>8034340
Nice pasta
>>8034340
I'm also like this. I've never held a job for more than a month.
"Honesty in a dishonest world is not the best policy." - GBS
>>8036450
Ayn Rand is a twat, Compromise wasn't dismissed anywhere in that post it just said that if the other person finds your opinion to be too strong they might hate you for it
>A person's opinions are not irrational even if that person is not you.
This is very wrong and you should not go through life thinking that other peoples opinions(and even your own) are not capable of being irrational. Each person has his ideas about how things are and should be but you compromising your ideas on how things are and should be for someone else's ideas means your ideas are weak or wrong, Your friends will often like you for who you are and respect your ideas and beliefs, not try to change them, unless of course your beliefs or ideas are objectively wrong. No where in that post did it say you should oppress others with your beliefs or ideas, it just said that you should speak your beliefs and ideas without fear of social consequence if those are your sincere beliefs and ideas.
>ywn have banter like me and my bros
I still need a deep argument why liking something sincerely is important - is the idea just that it's not good for the human psyche?
>>8038660
that doesn't mean he wasn't a good person. he just couldn't come to terms with the world
>>8036593
sounds a lot like a lot of my friends from school. i know this feel, brother. stick with the other groups.
>>8037700
>what sort of conflict in ideas, beliefs and tastes do you argue about? examples?
well, everything. Validity of vidya as art. Acceptance of promiscuity. The value of morality. What's the cut-off age for fucking younger girls. What level of honesty should there be among friends. Responsibility of a friend for another when under the influence. Driving high. Transfering colleges. Eating out. Fucking friends' moms. Coping with death, etc. We're not intellectuals, but we find ourselves arguing about shit like this all the time.
>>8040968
What are your opinions on each of those subjects
and what are some of your friends opinions which are most removed form yours?
>>8040440
But if his worldview was incompatible with reality, should you follow it as well?
>>8038390
your shovel would melt and you'd suffocate, faggot
>>8041121
Nobody said you had to dig straight through.
>>8041140
>to the other side
>digging straight
>not digging down
lmao holy shit
This bizarre idea /lit/ seems to have constructed of choosing between 'irony' and 'sincerity' (whatever the hell that even means) sounds like a fairly reliable way of cultivating neuroses.
>>8040078
top drawer #banter there lads
>>8034621
hahaha thank you
>>8041446
It's a system: creating outliers is what it does.
>>8041022
>Validity of vidya as art
I believe it is an art form. One of my buddies is aramant agaisnt that. He thinks art should not be interactive.
>Acceptance of promiscuity.
I think it does more harm than good. And that promiscuous people are generally hedonistic egotist. Buddy of my mine thinks I'm just resentful of promiscuous people and that it doesn't have any negative consequences except for stds.
>The value of morality.
I belive in the apollo/dionysus dichotomy, most of them are just derivative of judeo-christianity
>What's the cut-off age for fucking younger girls.
Me: 15, Buddy: 18
Things like that
>>8034245
wasn't céline doing sincerity before the ironic movement (vonnegut, etc.) that inspired new sincerity? or have i misunderstood the concept
>>8042329
>Me: 15, Buddy: 18
You're both wrong.
>>8042329
So all of you are retards?
>>8040412
Is that a sincere question, or an ironic one?
>>8034340
what do you do for a living?
w2c sincere conversations?
>>8038217
> I figure this is the reason old circles of friends wall into some kind of mode where the roles and expected talk is completely predictable
This is somewhat true in my circle as well. The banter or irony is a bit repetitive since we all rip on each other based on the same stereotypes/failures/insecurities that we ascribe to each other. We're not afraid to offend each other though.
>mask their inferiority with ironic acknowledgement that shields off that they feel bad about themselves.
THIS. ironic acknowledgement of flaws that we really do feel like shit about sort of does away the need to sincerely talk about them or acknowledge them.
however none of us really care about the power level among us since we all are ironic with each other almost equally.
>What's bad about group fotos?
i don't think there is anything wrong with it really. but we don't really have any since we just don't seem like the people who would do that (maybe because it is associated with normies who're not "cool" or as cynical as us)
>>8034340
>>8034832
>obsessed with morrisey
please do drop her mate, for the dignity of this board
>>8042329
You're literally me and your friend is literally my friend.
>>8034372
...what are you doing here?
>>8049083
I'm new
>>8044425
Half your age plus seven or you look creepy.
Nothing's really new. Fads fade.
>>8034245
There's nothing wrong living insincerely. Everyone else does, you merely have to acknowledge you're not the real deal and you're already better than the other 98% who honestly believe they are.
>>8036593
lmao how do you know my life nigger
>>8049143
>believing you're better than the 98% who believe they're better, etc.
Delicious.
>>8036593
> I have a small circle of friends (maybe roughly 10 people)
>small circle
Either I have a different standard for considering someone a friend or I am just very clueless about ''normal'' peoples social life cause 10 friends is a lot.
How do you even manage to see them regularly (once a week) and do other things
>>8037362
There's nothing wrong with liking ironic comedy sincerely
>>8034245
>be sincere
>everyone takes advantage of you and uses your face as a stepping stone as they desperately attempt to claw their way to the top
Yeah, no thanks. These kinds of philosophies are only helpful if everyone else does them, and that's never going to happen.
>>8035158
>If you care about how white your wall is, you probably don't have THAT white of a wall
Yes your argument is that inane
>>8034245
Sincerity is shit. I'm unironically nothing and ironically everything; it's more fun.
>>8034245
>What do you think of new sincerity?
DFW and the rest of the McSweeney gang?
No, I'm outta here.
>>8050427
>Sincere means you're going to get stepped on
Absolutely not, if something bothers you you're going to point it out, that's being sincere
>>8034250
Agreed
however, my opinion about this "new sincerity" thing is that it seems like a bullshit.
To me sincerity means being sincere with yourself first a foremost. Being sincere with yourself means coming to terms with what kind of person you are and what things you like. And not being afraid to produce creative work that strictly adheres to only your tastes. To hell with what the world around you thinks. To put a label on this lifestyle means you aren't being sincere, it means you are trying to show it off like some sort of fashion.
>>8050681
>To put a label on this lifestyle means you aren't being sincere, it means you are trying to show it off like some sort of fashion.
What?
Explain more clearly, that jump to that conclusion makes no sense
>>8050688
because it's just another label for people to follow. It's just another movement to attach yourself, how do you know if "new sincerity" is really what you are? How do you know it won't just go out of style in 10 years, the same question could be said of any social movement. And then you would be going on to the next clique. That doesn't sound sincere to me. It sounds like you care more about what the world is doing around you then the internal shifts of opinion and taste within yourself.
maybe im just a rambling crazy person though.
>>8034340
>People don't want other people to be sincere with them, they want other people to conform to their ideas and feel the way they feel about things.
This guy gets it
People who say they want sincerity secretly believe all their opinions are correct and everyone is secretly the same as them but is just pretending otherwise.
Is there something wrong with irony that I'm not aware of? Yes it's inherently critical, but is that bad? Why?
>>8050820
There is nothing wrong with irony or sarcasm, but when it takes it's place with actual wit then it becomes a problem to me.
>dude sincerity lmao
t. fresh college pussy suicide man
>>8050334
I'm using the word "friend" here a bit loosely. I'm close maybe to only 1 or 2 of them. I just hang around at the periphery of this circle desu. Don't see them once a week. Maybe see a few of them once a month or once in 2 months. But we stay in touch through caustic banter on online groups (instant messaging).
We all have a similar style of exceedingly ironic, caustic or really dark humor which does not work very well with other people. Ended up in a loose group because of this and a sort of shared cynicism and detachment from other peers.
>>8051341
Oh good, I thought I was turning into such a loser I'd even feel out of place on /lit/
I too have 2 friends I'm close with, no banter over messaging though, sounds like fun
>>8050840
I think irony and sarcasm are exceedingly cheap substitutes for wit. And considering the importance of wit and humor when it comes to attracting friendship, dates, a tv audience, popularity etc, everyone resorts to it. It's easier than being original and being humorous the sincere way (like finding absurdity in real life and embellishing it as a well delivered joke). Why be creative or witty when you can be snide, cynical and sarcastic. Not only do you come across as "cool" but now you seem to have access to a powerful ability which is humor through a cheap convenient method.
Maybe that's why it's been done endlessly and maybe dfw saw that it was a dead end and wanted to see a way out of this rut. A return to sincerity that would demand some sort of effort and originality and exposure of vulnerability.
