Since some Stormfag /pol/tard has started a thread on "essential nationalist literature" I thought it a good idea to have a thread on essential anarchist *fiction*. There's plenty of great anarchist political science, and I'm sure we've all read Conquest of Bread, ABCs of Anarchism, God and the State, and so on. I'm more interested in seeing whether there's any good anarchist, anti-nationalist *fiction* which I've missed reading.
My list of essential anarchist fiction:
- The Dispossessed by Ursula K. LeGuin
- The entire Elric saga by Michael Moorcock, as well as his Nestor Makhno alternate history stories like The Steel Tsar
- V for Vendetta (the graphic novel) by Alan Moore
- Good Omens by Terry Patchett and Neil Gaiman; not sure if people would consider it explicitly anarchist, but it's definitely humanist and anti-authoritarian
(Please don't post any Ayn Rand crap here. There is no such thing as "anarcho-capitalism." Capitalism is classist, and anarchism has no social classes by definition.)
Sadly, there isn't too much anarchist fiction of which I'm aware.
Unless you're cool with egoism, in which case you could probably say a lot of sword & sorcery fantasy is up that alley. People just doing whatever the fuck they want and sticking it to the man.
Heinrich von Kleist - Michael Kohlhaas
>>8028314
Against the Day. All of Victor Serge's books. There's a strong anarchist strain in Vollmann's books.
>>8028591
Not anarchism.
Ancapism is literally the only valid form of anarchis. Socialism is inherently statist. You're part of the problem.
the criticism that ancoms level against ancaps can be thrown right back at them
both are fucking retarded
>>8028969
I just said it was fucking retarded
judging by the books in the OP this is a bait thread anyway
>>8028314
Anarchism is basically laissez faire capitalism, there's no difference.
>>8028314
Is individualist anarchism considered real anarchism? If so, then I would say Might is Right by Ragnar Redbeard and No Treason by Lysander Spooner are good reads.
Evasion
>>8028978
This. take that statist scum. Deus Vult!
>>8028951
I define anarchism as x. Your "anarchism" does not fit my definition, therefore you are not an anarchist.
Well actually, anarchism is y, which invalidates your claim of being an anarchist.
Anarchism has always been about x, have you even read Person 1?
Yes, but Person 2 has shown that to be false.
Typical of a y anarchist to bring up Person 2. You're nothing but a crypto-A.
Now you're just name calling. I wouldn't expect anything less from a crypto-B.
>>8028992
that sounds about right
if anarchism actually existed (and it literally never will so find a new ideology) it would be the strong ruling the weak
>>8028951
in practice a-cap will not result in the jeffersonian yeoman farmer fantasy + legal weed utopia libertarians envision but in a neo-feudal system in which a small elite (tech/security cartels and landholders) is allowed unprecedented control over the masses. Hans Hermann Hope (among other Austrian School/ A-cap ideologues) basically admits as much. It's Bourgeoisie Liberal proprietarianism taken to its natural and paradoxical conclusion.
>>8029017
yes I agree with that
anarcho communism will lead to the exact same thing
Will all the fucking /pol/tards, Stormfags, Randroids, Ayn-caps, and other assorted fungus please fuck off? Unless you want to suggest some actual anarchist fiction, then GTFO.
>>8029038
it's not a serious ideology I don't know why you expect a serious thread
>>8029021
Communism is a theoretical ideal. If anything our current state-based system is obsolescing quickly. I think most people would agree that direct democracy, descentralisation and mutual/communal ownership of the means of production are preferable to the spooky property-fetishism surveillance/control system capitalism could soon become.
>>8029038
The reason anarcho-capitalism is gaining in popularity while the communist or socialist forms are stagnating is because the latter all sound like you-- whiny. Sad!
>>8029061
yeah except there's no serious Exit thought going on within the left because they're still addicted to universalism
>>8028978
No, anarchism is a society with hierarchies, the only economic system that would work with it and still be anarchistic is communism
>>8029004
Anarchism has existed, look at the Ukrainian Free Territory, the spanish revolution, even the Zapitistas and the Kurds in Rojava are influenced by anarchism.
>>8029093
anarchism is a society without a state, it has nothing to do with hierarchies
>b-but Bakunin said
reality doesn't care
>>8029099
>existed
key word
>>8029105
Anarchism has always been to do with hierachies, its only Ancaps who just take the dictionary definition of anarchism and ignore the all literature who believe it is only the state that needs to go.
>>8029093
>>8028978
see:
>>8028992
>>8029109
You implied it had never existed, which it obviously has and again the Kurdish struggle in Syria is influenced by Murray Bookchin, who was an anarchist. Their social and political structure are deeply anti-authoritarian.
>>8029124
I implied that it can't exist
a system that fails to reproduce itself isn't a serious system
how long do you think the Kurds have left?
>>8028978
>>8028988
"Anarcho-capitalism" is just an economic theory that a monopoly on the production of law is inefficient and immoral and should be subject to market competition, it just boils down to a utilitarian efficiency issue and (im)moral critique. Things would still be governed (by market forces) but it would be more efficient governance.
Real anarchism would outright reject the positive economics/sociology/morals of Jews like Murray Rothbard. "Anarcho-capitalism" is actually just Judaic egoism in its pure materialist form.
>>8029140
>"Anarcho-capitalism" is actually just Judaic egoism in its pure materialist form.
>>8029126
First of all the reason anarchism has failed in the past isn't in a lack of ability to reproduce itself, it has been due to losing militarily against the soviets and fascist Spain. In Spain it was due to infighting with different groups on the left, which is a problem that the left has in general. Also I mean the Kurds are winning battles against ISIS, the issue is what happens if ISIS are defeated. If they stay autonomous and have their own state and western military forces move out, they more than likely will have an issue with Turkey who doesn't want them to exist. Which would likely cause an extension of Turkeys fight against the PKK, to one with the YPG/YPJ aswell.
>>8028635
Isn't anarchism just no-government?
>>8029150
>it has been due to losing militarily against the soviets and fascist Spain.
meaning it failed to reproduce itself because it couldn't deal with external threats
>>8029154
Not really, the original anarchist thinkers were all socialists and wanted an end to both the state and capitalism, seeing the hierarchies in both to be negative.
>>8029140
You know Marx was a Jew too. They have control jave both sides..
>>8029174
Yeah but Marx didn't claim to be an anarchist.
>>8029162
There are no hierarchies in capitalism. Socialists are mere useful idiots ushering in the nwo and their own quick deaths.
>>8029176
I was referring to socialism...
>>8029017
Jefferson is proto Marxist, we don't want that. Statist/socialist forced indoctrination, otherwise known as school, have created generations of morons welcoming their own enslavement with open arms.
>>8029177
Capitalist society has rigid social classes; if you'd read Marx, you'd understand that. Class is a hierarchy. The rich quite obviously have more power than than the poor. Corporations are built with hierarchies, where CEOs and Directors have more say in what a company does than the workers.
>>8029205
The classic anarchist "If you'd read Authority X, surely you'd see that I am right."
Now wait for the opposing anarchist to refer to Authority Y who disagrees with Authority X.
>THIS ENTIRE THREAD
>>8029243
This.
>not just rejecting any and all self-declared authority, considering all claims in themselves and judging them by their own merits, rejecting private property because it's a spook, and the state for the same reason and because it attempts to control you, without rigidly, dogmatically adhering to communism either
You'll Cowards Don't Even Read Stirner
>I know! I know and understand: my ideas — which are not new — might wound the overly sensitive hearts of modern humanists, who proliferate in great abundance among subversives, and of romantic dreamers of a radiant, redeemed and perfect humanity, dancing in an enchanted realm of general, collective happiness to the music of a magic flute of endless peace and universal brotherhood. But anyone who chases phantoms wanders far from the truth, and then it is known that the first to be burnt in the flames of my corroding thought was my inner being, my true self! Now within the burning blaze of my Ideas, I also become a flame, and I burn, I scorch, I corrode...
>Only those who enjoy contemplating seething volcanoes that launch sinister, exploding lava from their fiery wombs toward the stars, later letting them fall into the Void or among Dead Cities of cowardly men, my carrion brothers, making them run in frantic flight out from their moldy wall-papered shacks, hellholes of rancid, old ideals, should approach me.
>>8029185
The ideal of an utopia of independent farmers and craftsmen is still very much a part of the right libertarian imaginary. Too bad the market as it exists today tends toward industrial cartels, mass media-driven psychological engineering and collusion with a brutal security apparatus. The way I see it, there's always going to be a Government of sorts- ie a system dedicated to resolving disputes and distributing resources- so why not make it fully accountable and democratic? imo left-anarchism is closer to the ideal of freedom than a system based on unrestricted property-as-power.
>>8029154
What is government? Government isn't just a synonym for state as if abolishing a state eliminates government as the narrowness of some crypto-utilitarians lead them to believe. No government means no laws of any sort be they legal, moral, natural/social science, etc... it means consonantly changing the fabric of the universe.
>>8029185
Jefferson was actually more of a Maoist than a orthodox Marxist.
Force and indoctrination isn't avoidable and we probably need a lot more of it not less. If you abolish schools you're just left with families which might be more utilitarian/economical/romantic but equally forceful.
>>8029205
Class or hierarchy isn't problematic in itself laws are. Most people actually like hierarchy.
Completely ignoring the title of this thread, here's some Anarchist non-fiction:
An Anarchist FAQ
Introduction to Anarchism Communism
Anarcho communism - an introduction
Anacho-syndicalism - an introduction
Alexander Berkman:
Alexander Berkman, 1870-1936 - biography
What is Anarchism?
Prison memoirs of an anarchist
The Russian Tragedy
The Bolshevik Myth
The Kronstadt Rebellion
Mikhail Bakunin:
Mikhail Bakunin, 1814-1876 - Biography
Basic Bakunin - Anarchism Federation
Marxism, Freedom and The State
God and The State
The Paris Commune and the Idea of the State
A Critique of teh German Social Democratic Program
Pierre Proudhon:
What is Property?
The Philosophy of Poverty
The General Idea of the Revolution in the Nineteenth Century
The Principle of Federation
Peter Kropotkin:
The Conquest of Bread
Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution
Fields, Factories, and Workshops
Anarchism; & Anarchism Communism
Memoirs of a Revolutionist
The State - Its Historic Role
Act for Yourselves: Articles from Freedom 1886-1907
Errico Malatesta:
Errico Malatesta, 1853-1932 - Biography
Anarchy
Anarchism and Organisation
Syndicalism and Anarchism
At The Cafe
Emma Goldman:
Emma Goldman, 1869-1940 - Biography
Anarchism and Other Essays
Living My LIfe, 2 Vols
My Disillusionment in Russia
Rudolf Rocker:
Rudolf Rocker, 1873-1958 - Biography
Anarcho-syndicalism
Anarchism and Anarcho-syndicalism
Nationalism and Culture
The Tragedy of Spain
The Truth About Spain
Nestor Makhno:
Nestor Makhno, 1889-1934 - Biography
The Struggle Against The State And Other Essays
Organisational Platform of the General Union of Anarchists
Daniel Guerin:
Daniel Guerin, 1904-1988 - Biography
No Gods, No Masters: An Anthology of Anarchism
Anarchism: From Theory to Practice
Albert Meltzer:
Albert Meltzer, 1920-1996 - Biography
I couldn't paint golden angels: Sixty years of commonplace life and anarchist agitation
Anarchism: Arguments For and Against
The Floodgates of Anarchy
Murray Bookchin:
Bookchin Remembered
Social Anarchism of Lifestyle Anarchism
Listen, Marxist!
Post-Scarcity Anarchism
Anarchism, Marxism and The Future of The Left
The Spanish Anarchists: The Heroic Years 1868-1936
Which can all be found:
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/
http://zinelibrary.info/
http://www.marxists.org/ebooks/index.htm
http://www.marxists.org/txtindex.htm
http://qzap.org/
http://www.prole.info/
http://www.prole.info/onlinetexts.html
http://libcom.org/library
I just can't stomach complete anarchy as a belief system.
I belive in a system.Of course this system I belive in changes by the minute,but still,a structure is there.Stirner developed more of a personal belief system so that is cool
>>8029271
Most people like hierarchy? I don't think I know anyone who likes or trusts politicians, or likes the owners of the companies they work for. Just because you're a cuck, who likes being told what to do doesn't mean everyone else is.
>>8029285
Most anarchists aren't opposed to structures existing per se; they just want the system to be one in which people cooperate and aren't forced to participate, through the actions of others or through the withholding of resources they need to survive. Essentially, anarchism is about the maximization of personal freedom through the creation of a situation in which everyone has what they need, and in which nobody is above anyone else in any kind of rigid way.
This is compatible with Stirner's egoism, by the way, but only if you are a Stirnerite who happens to want to live in the above society yourself.I am.
>>8029205
Ive read Marx and i disagree completely. LTV and "unproductive labor" are categorically false premises.
>>8029294
So it's essentially a decentralized minimalistic communism?(on a local level)
>>8028593
I just realized this kind of replies are both an insult and actual advice at the same time since /r/ is now a thing.
>>8029312
Basically, yeah. Mutualism falls in there somewhere, too, but is a bit less popular, albeit probably more in line with most egoists' ideas.
Basically mutualism is like capitalism minus the capitalists (replace top-down businesses with worker cooperatives) and minus land ownership (if you don't use it or live on it, and it's just sitting there empty, you don't own it).
>>8029312
Yeah basically, it is a decentralized communism, but there is ideas on how to make it work on a larger scale with things like federations
>>8029293
You are going to get fucked anyways, it's innevitable, law of the jungle out there. I would rather serve a natural aristocrat than get cucked by some random ass dindu. Are you seriously thinking the lower races aren't going to go on a massive looting/rape spree as soon as the cops are off the streets? Cooperation my ass, this is a dog eat dog world.
>>8029109
The Oaxacan communes, the Rojava territory and plenty of small religious, decentralized communes still exist all around the world, you just have to look for it.
>>8029156
>the only problem of anarchism is non-anarchists
>>8029185
I love this thing americans do, like "a piece of shit smeared across a fryer, otherwise known as PANCAKES", it justs sounds like Spurdo trying to prove his point by poorly appealing to surreal analogies
>>8029294
Well, Stirner was a stirnerite aiming for a similar society, so, you know.
>>8029268
Jefferson wanted everyone to be dirt farmers waging endless revolution. Yea thats why we want a statless free markets. Property is labor, of course those that actually do stuff should be in power, but only over themselves.
Technically not fiction, but the guy literally killed people to make you read this, so at least give it a shot: http://cyber.eserver.org/unabom.txt
>>8028314
Songs of Innocence and of Experience
Honestly for real Good Omens and V for Vendetta can just be skipped if you dont want to read them for fun.
Anarchist is basically Reddit: The Ideology
>>8029140
>utilitarian
lol
>>8029527
So you do believe in the labor theory of value but only when said labor is associated with property? Weird. And whose labor? Does land belong to the landowner or to the laborers who work his fields? Historically, property has been acquired through conquest and preserved through the threat of force, it can also be sold and inherited which means its relation to labor is hardly as direct as you seem to imply.
>>8029591
Relative theory of value andlabor as tge origin of property. The landowner is whoever created the farm in the first play. Inheritance is no different than any other gift, though I would hope people would man up and stop giving their life's work to spoiled brats.
This whole thread is why no one likes or respects Ayn-caps: pushy, obnoxious, stupid, and full of Dunning-Kruger bravado.
>>8029775
The leftists here, including you, are the ones being obnoxious. OP started it.
>>8028314
>(Please don't post any Ayn Rand crap here. There is no such thing as "anarcho-capitalism." Capitalism is classist, and anarchism has no social classes by definition.)
>ayn rand was an anarchist
>capitalism is classist
good spooks my property
>>8029917
Capitalism relies on spooks such as "the property owners actually own that shit" too.
Steal what you want. Fuck the rich.
>>8029927
So now all property owners are rich? The vast majority of landowners are poor.
>>8029591
Not the guy you are replying to but you are really ignorant. How does land gain value? The rent you can extract from it. What creates rent? Labour. The difference the return from capital ie profit and what accrues to you as landowner is rent, if you both own the land and own the capital on the land then profit and rent are both paid to you. The rent of land depends on productivity of labour. The least productive land produces the least amount of rent because there is a smaller difference between profit and rent. This is the Ricardian idea refined by Marx and made into and ideology by Henry George. A very interesting. Ideology. He says the tensions in society are not labour and capital but labour and capital against landowners. Land has no value unless it can be used to produce commodities through labour
That's funny because Ayn Rand is not an anarchist in the slightest, she's one of the shittiest "libertarian" philosophers along with Robert Nozick, so it really shows that you have no clue of what you're talking about. If you want anarchist fiction you can check any academic literature on left-anarchy (anarcho-communism, anarcho-syndicalism, mutualism, and so on) since it relies only on "muh feels" regarding hierarchies, which have nothing to do with how agents own means of production (which is a largely missused concept, specially as technological progress comes), but how society itself is formed regarding jurisdiction and family-structuring. Being against hierarchies itself just because of "muh equality" is too much wishful thinking for supposed empirical, materialistic theories. True anarcho-capitalism, which is based on universal logical ethics and not utilitarianism, is truly different from other kinds of anarchy, because it's the only one that doesn't rely on ideological arbitrarities. Private property isn't a metaphysical opressive entity, it's just a necessary rule for conflict-solving.
>>8029927
yeah, I'm not really an ancap, I just find it weird when people say "capitalism is x" when x is something other than "an economic system by which the means of production is owned privately". Capitalism may lead to some of these things under certain circumstances, I suppose, but that doesn't really mean it is those things.
>>8028314
Fabric of the cosmos - brian greene
>>8029177
>There are no hierarchies in capitalism
>>8029970
Adding to that, hierarchies, unlike government, are truly spontaneous structures, that even with initiation of force, either by structured states or communist-like unions in a supposed communistic society, cannot logically disappear.
>>8029970
>universal logical ethics
>hoppean argumentation ethics. Le By talking to me you are actually accepting libertarianism
Holy shit, I can see why nobody likes you people. It should be noted Mr Hoppe happens to be a reactionary enamored by spooky ideas of monarchy and the natural order
>>8029995
I'm not talking about hoppean argumentation ethics, although it is a very helpful tool to point out performative contradictions. If one has a valid claim onto someone else, the validity of such claim is necessarily arbitrary (aryans over jews, whites over blacks, workers over bourgeois, state over citizens, progressives over conservatives, and so on), so the only non-arbitrary rule for resolving conflict is that nobody has a claim to coerce a pacific other. Anarcho-communists do not even have an ethical premise, it's all about "muh feels" and a hard-on for the concept of means of production, which magically can't be owned privately unlike personal property. Accept that you are a joke and go back to jerking yourself to videos of Chomsky crying about marketing imperialism.
>>8030015
Adding to this, the only valid criticism to anarcho-capitalism is stirnerism by rejecting ethics and morality by the whole.
>>8030020
>the only valid criticism to anarcho-capitalism is stirnerism
lol no
>>8030026
Go on, kiddo.
>>8030027
>kiddo
I'm older than you.
Any rejection of property or subjective morality works
>>8030033
Define an non-contradictory, valid concept of violence without using the concept of property. Rule of property is resolution of conflict itself, because conflict only exists on behalf of scarcity. Any communistic anarchism also uses the concept of property, it's just that the property of arbitrary object x (means of productions) are forcibly owned collectively. It is still property. If you reject property all-along then you don't have communism, you have no ethical framework at all. Also, morality and ethics are different things. Now kill yourself kiddo.
>>8030045
Adding again, if not for universal ethics (rules for conflict resolution) you just have the rule of the strongest.
>>8030045
>violence is bad because i dont like it
Then the brat tells me to kill myself.
Confirmed troll; ignore him.
>>8030045
>someone questioned muh ideology that means they need to die ;c
>>8030066
The jig is up, stop trying.
>>8030071
What I've learned from you: I have a claim to someone else's property because my feels are hurt when x has more property than y.
>>8030015
Like all deontological universalist ethics, you end up falling on spooky metaphysical claims (ironically, muh feels and intuition). Much like Kant's categorical imperative bears a suspicious resemblance to 18th century bourgeoisie mores, the Austrians came to the conclusion that private property was the ultimate good and then set out to build a system to justify it. It relies on equivocation between a platonic plane of rational discourse and the actual world dominated by force and necessity. Claim a city's only water source, charge exhorbitant fares to the starving population and when they come knocking on your door it's your right to shoot them cause they are the ones initiating violence or whatever. People have no reason to adhere to your arbitrary set of universalist ethics specially when it condemns them to starvation or de facto slavery.
>>8030075
Sweetie, the jig is up; you can stop projecting your ancom boogieman onto me and go back to /b/ or dubchan or whereever you illiterates come from.
>>8030045
>Rule of property is resolution of conflict itself, because conflict only exists on behalf of scarcity.
You're implying conflict didn't exist before the emergence of property forms. Conflict is rooted in psychological processes that go much deeper than simple "scarcity".
Property as an institution is just a legal construct that emerged due to its utility for society but eventually what was once useful becomes a burden and parasitic. Property as an institution is becoming more and more just about rent extraction and legally transferring from creators towards passive stock-holders and speculators.
What you want to call those social structures which existed before the development of those legal construct which property rests upon I dunno
>>8029927
this would be valid if ancoms didn't say the exact same shit
>>8029243
>>8029251
>tfw Stirner will always be right
>>8028314
Not fiction, but here's an essay some of you may enjoy called The Abolition of Work by American anarchist Bob Black.
http://www.primitivism.com/abolition.htm
>>8029251
Why is there a dash before "terrified"? Was it censored?
>>8028314
Joseph Conrad - The Secret Agent
Haven't yet read it myself, although it is in a box with others that are on my to-read list, but I've heard mostly good things about it.
Story has to do with a plot to blow up the Greenwich Observatory by a member of an anarchist group who also is secretly an agent provocateur.
>>8028314
>>8029305
>"unproductive labor" [is a] categorically false premise
pfffffffffffffffff
>>8030951
Looks interesting. Have you read it?
>>8031268
yes i have
it is interesting
>>8030951
absolute trash
>>8029231
>Marx
>Anarchist
What is this eric new meme?
>>8032210
no u r
>>8028314
the fact that there is an anarchist logo doesn't seem to be very anarchic
>no social classes
can someone explain why anyone who would advocate for this is even allowed to think
>>8030945
Really good book.
Also man who was Thursday by Chesterton explores similar themes
>>8032257
What?
"The Monkey Wrench Gang" by Edward Abbey
"The Dispossessed" by Ursula K. Le Guin
The Culture series by Iain M. Banks
"Distress" by Greg Egan
"Singularity Sky" by Charles Stross
"Against the Day" by Thomas Pynchon (secretly the best Pynchon novel)
"Die Anarchisten" by John Henry Mackay (for Stirner fans)
Homage to Catalonia is p cool
>>8028314
Fredy Perlman's "Letters of Insurgents" is essential.
>>8029205
Marx was retarded.
>not being 31
>>8032536
Seconding this, probably Orwell's best novel.
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/category/author/joseph-dejacque
the first anarchist
>>8028951
That's why ancoms spend so much time criticising ancaps, because it's the only system worse than ancom.
>>8029062
We all need a traditional Bhutanese monarchy leading our people.
>>8032552
>not being 3
>>8029279
>proud of being a prole
I can't wait till we get full automation so we can starve those bastards out.
>>8029294
>maximisation of personable freedom
>Nobody is above anyone else
Wut
>>8032552
I think private property is a spook and am willing to take whatever I need to survive. However, I also tend to feel sympathetic toward others and am unlikely to deprive someone of something they absolutely need. My ideal society is 23-25, but I'm entirely on board with Stirner.
Stirner also thought a certain kind of communism was probably something that would happen if everyone became egoists, because private property as a concept would be recognized as based on the acceptance of a false right for others not to use something just because you claim ownership of it. He just didn't think one should be ideologically committed to communism.
This image is silly.
>>8032723
If you have others above you, your freedom is restricted. It's not that complicated.
>>8029753
>not training your children from birth to be superhumans
>not giving them your fortune with the sole purpose of creating a thousand year famillial Reich.
They will become spoiled brats only if you allow it senpai.
>>8029927
>let's create a utopian society by fucking the successful rich as well as the thieving rich and stealing from all.
I hope you plebs starve in the winter. I might just steal your food seeing as it's justified anyway.
>>8032753
>justified
Nice spook. Come and take it, motherfucker.
>>8032552
Which Friedman is that speaking about?
>>8032726
Freedom would be to allow each to fully excel, as far as they care capable. Stopping the more capable for the less capable is restricting their freedom.
>>8032760
>Steal what you want
You implied it yourself that it's justified
>>8032778
It's not justified or unjustified. It just is. Justice is a spook.
>>8032781
Oh right that's what you meant.
>>8032775
We're talking about a completely different kind of society, though, that wouldn't recognize your claims to land ownership, for instance, because they're free to go wherever they want. Or your claim to own a factory that makes shirts. After all, they can use that machine sitting there to make a shirt, or pick one up off the pile over there, if they like to.
How could you become rich, then? Your success depends upon having already restricted their freedom, saying "you can't use or have this unless you pay me."
>>8032792
If I'm not free to enjoy the fruits of my labour (since everyone else has taken them) then why bother? That's sort of society suffers from a major free riding problem. From a consequentialist POV private property works. You can even have it like Sweden were individuals own land but anyone can walk upon hit just not take its produce. If I can use more things at once than another person should I not be able to use more?
>>8029061
Ya nah. We have history to judge that red ideals lead to nothing but ruin.
>>8029099
Not anarchist, they were statist.
>>8029257
Nah.
>>8029279
None of this is anarchist. If it's red, it's statist.
There is no "true" anarchism since the lack of hierarchy is inherently impossible to achieve
The purest form of anarchism there is would be egoist anarchism, that is to say, a system that isn't really applicable to a large-scale group of individuals.
You can live as an anarchist regardless of how statist your society is (see illegalism)
>>8032775
accumulation of surplus capital is the highest purpose in life and the true mark of a superior individual
>>8029927
So I can have sex with you even if you don't want it? I mean you don't believe in property so you obviously don't believe in self property.
>>8033697
Private property isn't the same thing as personal property.
But yeah you can rape him if you feel like it.
>>8033700
There are no distinctions between personal and private property. There is only property.
>>8033696
>highest purpose
>true mark
>superior individual
I would think that any book on anarchist societies is a work of fiction.
>>8032818
you are not free to fully enjoy the fruits of your labor in a capitalist society, but only the fruits of your property.
>>8028973
You're an idiot.
>>8028314
>- The Dispossessed by Ursula K. LeGuin
>- The entire Elric saga by Michael Moorcock, as well as his Nestor Makhno alternate history stories like The Steel Tsar
>- V for Vendetta (the graphic novel) by Alan Moore
>- Good Omens by Terry Patchett and Neil Gaiman; not sure if people would consider it explicitly anarchist, but it's definitely humanist and anti-authoritarian
Is this bait?
>>8033722
>this post
>>8032487
It's inching closer to the top of my to-read list. I'll look into The Man Who Was Thursday. I know I've heard it mentioned and in a positive way, but didn't know what it was about. Thanks for the tip.
>>8033693
>lack of hierarchy is inherently impossible to achieve
nor is all power legitimate
>>8034590
Legitimacy is a spook
>>8028314
Anarchism is a sort of fiction in itself. As for a book (non-fiction I'm afraid), I'd like to throw in The Spanish Civil War: Revolution and Counterrevolution. Don't worry, anarchist friends, the next time it's implemented human nature will be suspended and things'll turn out great. And if they don't...well, propagande par le fait and all that jazz.
>>8028943
The state is a construct of capital. Wherever it exists, the state will follow.
So what does Sterner mean by property if the ancap concept of private property is a spook?
What DOES the ego own?
>>8035833
Humans are territorial, but as far as the psyche is concerned, it doesn't matter whether the territory is physical or abstract. We know, for example, that the brain responds to emotional pain the same way it does to physical pain; people say emotional pain "hurts" because it literally does -- the brain makes no distinction between physical and abstract pain. So while humans require territory, that territory can be either physical or psychological or even spiritual. So people with little spiritual development and small minds become propertarian, rigidly holding on to land and goods because they can't conceive of anything else. Those who are slightly smarter but still spiritually bankrupt become "patriots," fighting for a flag or a football team or some other more abstract idea of property. It's only the brightest and most spiritually-developed who have the power to exist with no physical property and no crazed chauvinism for State or team; they are content with broad, internal, spiritual vistas which satisfy the human need to have exclusive personal turf.
>>8032775
muh crypto-protestant morality
>>8036874
Hard Work is Good.
God (the market) Always Rewards Hard Work
Hence, Hard Work and Property are One and the Same
Accumulation of surplus property is a the mark of the virtuous man and the elect
>>8037095
>Hard Work is Good
Arbeit macht frei, eh? Scratch a Randroid, find a Nazi.
I haven't read it myself, but Eumeswil might be of interest
Left anarchism is a contradiction. if there is no government, then who will be in charge of taking other people's hard earned money and redistributing away to the indolent races?
>>8037408
exactly! if anarchists dissolve the government then who will arrest george zimmerman for defending himself?
>>8037408
how will the childfree pay for your 12+ white christian fundamentalist famly to go to school?
>>8037408
Without government there are no property rights in the first place, jackass.
>>8038066
I'm actually an atheist entrepreneur and the co-owner of a successful software company. I've been working hard while you sit in moms basement with yr useless English degree and blame your failure on capitalism... I have a home of my own a hot Ukrainian wife a Harley motorcycle and 2 beautiful white children I fucking earned that money come take it over my dead body
>>8038468
>I fucking earned that money come take it over my dead body
Your colored paper is worthless, you swine! You may as well be clutching Dumbo's feather.
>>8032552
>not being 16
>>8038530
>believing in an oxymoron
>>8038533
>believing libertarian socialism is an oxymoron
>>8032552
>18
>Classical Liberalism
Feels good
>>8038530
16 is, conveniently, the average age of ""libertarian socialists"".
>>8038538
Define a scenario in which wealth redistribution may occur without the threat or use of force on the part of the state.
>>8038406
>Without government there are no property rights in the first place, jackass.
oh yes there is....its called step on my family's land and take buckshot to the face...which is to say reversion to feudalism, how progressive mr. edgy anarchy teen
>>8038692
Define a scenario in which wealth redistribution is prevented from occurring without the threat or use of force on the part of the state.
>>8028314
>ancap isn't real anarchism
Wew lad, anarchism refers to the degree of centralization of power in a society, not economic policy.
>>8038708
>The populate is capable of equal or better force projection than the state (minarchism)
>The state does not exist (anarcho-capitalism)
Now you.
>>8038708
the scenario where the walton family has private security and a fortified compound and there is no state to stop them from shooting you when you get within sniper range to "redistribute" their holdings, then people who are sick of fleeing redistributionist thugs go to the walton's asking to live on their land under the protection of their security and holy shit now you have a new state! woohoo, anarchists are morons.
>>8038706
That's not a scenario with property rights. It's also not a scenario with any kind of "Voluntaryism". It's basically replacing civilization with a large-scale version of negros fighting an endless street war.
>>8038719
Capitalism cannot exist with the state, asshat.
>>8038486
Worthless to you, maybe, not to the people that buy his products. The best thing is that even without a state to issue and back its currency people would still find media of exchange and you would still be sitting in your mother's basement periodically wiping excrement off your chair.
>>8038711
What? Power over material resources is the only real power that matters.
>>8038730
>negros fighting an endless street war
that's anarchism, the blacks operate outside of the state and see the police as an "occupying army" interfering with their own internal tribal morality and mores, so yeah, if u want to get a feel for how wonderful anarchy is head over to your local ghetto
>>8038742
Utter nonsense. You need to educate yourself on what capitalism actually is.
>>8038736
Capitalism predates any notion of the state.
Now please try to think a little more about how the state might redistribute wealth without the threat or use of force. Otherwise your ideology is a contradiction in terms.
>>8038744
You haven't read a single book about anarchism, have you?
>>8038751
Now you're just trolling.
>>8038750
Do tell, Mr. economist, because here I am enjoying the fruits of my labour (during which I exchanged time and effort at tasks I am suited to and capable of for units of exchange media) labouring under the delusion that capitalism might have something to do with the unfettered exchange of goods and services between two individuals bound by honour and/or contract.
>>8038753
sorry, i'm not into fantasy
>>8038758
And you still haven't come up with an explanation of how libertarian communism is not a contradiction in terms.
>>8038766
>because here I am enjoying the fruits of my labour
No, you are enjoying the results of mixing your labor with natural resources.
>>8038778
Indeed, is there any other way to generate wealth?
>>8028314
These are the defining 3 texts of Anarchism:
Might is Right - Ragnar Redbeard
The Way of Men - Jack Donovan
Ethnic nationalism, evolutionary psychology and Genetic Similarity Theory - JP Rushton
>>8038778
what if his labor is suckin' on peens?
>>8038773
Under anarchism and libertarianism, there are no such things as property rights. Your whole capitalist ideology cannot even be defined. The term "anarcho-capitalism" is an oxymoron, since capital is abolished under anarchism.
>>8038794
Property rights are whatever you can defend. In a state of nature this defence is principally against your fellow man, in a state of commonwealth this defence is against the state.
Whether anarcho-capitalism is a reasonable term for a truly stateless and sovereignless society is irrelevant.
Now go and think a little more about how the state might redistribute wealth without the threat or use of force because I'm starting to think you really do base your principles on an oxymoron.
>>8038794
>capital is abolished under anarchism
i don't think capital means what you think it means, kid
>>8029004
Right. It would essentially be tribalism, in which a hierarchy would emerge in each group.
Therefore its hard to draw the line distinguishing anarchy from nonanarchy, solely based on the existence of classes and the power of the most poweful.
Rather, anarchy is definec by a group of people subscribing to classical morality, rather than the post-enlightenment Christian collectivist egalitarian globalist morality.
Aristocracy, anarchy, and tribalism go hand in hand.
>>8028314
I can't imagine something more detrimental to the liberty of mankind than the abolition of the rights to property.
The whole lot of anarchist and socialist thinkers are simply angry that they have to work for their living and covet power and chaos nothing more. They justify this with pretty promises of a Utopian world where everyone behaves the way they want them to behave.
>>8038807
>Now go and think a little more about how the state might redistribute wealth without the threat or use of force
Wealth can't exist without the state, asshat. Without laws defining property rights, the stuff you consider "yours" is just stuff.
>>8038824
this, I thought lit had a high IQ?
>>8038811
Cringe. You might want to read a book on the subject before clogging the thread with irrelevant shitposts.
>>8038811
>Aristocracy, anarchy, and tribalism go hand in hand.
and this is the key to understanding anarchism as the reactionary movement it is, anarchism "became a thing" during the rise of the nation state (obviously) and the demise of feudalism and aristrocratic heirarchy...ever notice there weren't any anarchists fags whining about "hierarchy" during the feudal era even the it was actually more hierarchical with no class mobility during those times? anarchism is regressive and reactionary crap, and any one who takes it seriously either can't think for shit, or is just a resentful loser with misplaced nostalgia for being a peasant
>>8037095
this dude knows what's up, i think of it as capitalist karma, you work hard and provide goods and services that the people of your community and the world want, and you get rewarded for it...it may take a while to see the fruits of your labor, but eventually hard work always pays off...the ppl who claim to work hard and are always broke don't work as hard as they claim or instead of reinvesting their gains they blow it on vice, i'm a secular protestant i guess which is maybe to say an american
>>8038835
>>8038835
I believe it is also largely based on population size.
For a long time if you didn't like the state, you could take your family and go scratch out a living on the fringes of civilization by homesteading.
The modern world has shot itself in the foot by being peaceful and prosperous enough to allow such population growth.
There is nowhere for dissident elements to go.
>>8038824
No, that stuff belongs to me because it is at my disposal and I am capable of defending it. You're right to imply that, if there is someone stronger than me that wants to take that stuff then it is, in effect, theirs. It's mine as long as they don't, though.
Even then, though, how would you call this condition socialist? Redistribution of wealth requires a state to redistribute it, in which case your system is not anarchic (nor even libertarian if that state uses its own resources to redistribute your wealth). Alternatively, if the condition is to be called libertarian (let us assume for now that you agree that anarcho-communism /is/ a contradiction), then the state must not have the power or the warrant to seize your wealth; in which case by what definition is it socialist?
>>8038843
Except, the reality of capitalism is the opposite of everything you say here. Under capitalism, workers are not allowed to receive the benefits of their labor. Instead, the fruit of their labor is robbed from them and given to idle rentier capitalists, who themselves do not work and add no economic value.
>>8038823
There is no "right to anything" so you cannot abolish rights.
Either you have sufficient force to keep outsiders from taking your shit or you dont.
>>8038859
>idle rentier capitalists
Who are you referring to?
>>8038853
There is no "redistribution of wealth" under anarchism because there is no "wealth" to begin with. Nobody can own land. So the absurd imbalances in concentration of economic power we see today would never arise in the first place.
>>8038851
i donno bro, if that was true then places that are overpopulated to death like bangledesh would be hotbeds of anarchist radicalism, instead of reactionary shitholes that long for authoritarian sharia style overlords
your hypothesis about anarchism vs homesteading is interesting, but it seems like most of the biggest anarchist crybabies in america weren't the frontier farmers from WASPy countries, but catholic plebs from dumps like Italy that just clustered in urban shit holes and never even tried to make it on their own
>>8038881
>There is no "redistribution of wealth" under anarchism because there is no "wealth" to begin with.
so your goal is to make everyone equal by make everyone poor? cool, where do i sign up
>>8038881
Then how can you describe the situation as being communistic or socialist?
>>8038898
Europe.
>>8038869
in america, the healthcare industrial complex, thanks to obama it is now illegal to not pay the health insurance shakedown...with hillary freedom will die even more...but this isn't capitalism, this is a decay of capitalism as the ruling class pushes for a return to stable feudalism so no "disruptive" capitalist upstart can threaten their privilege.
>>8038824
Anything I can take and hold is mine.
That's true in any form of government.
That's just the reality of things
>>8038912
so there are no states in europe? but then who is in charge of taking money from hardworking europeans and giving it to muslims?
>>8038914
That's what I've been trying to get across. the state, as a self-interested body composed of self-interested people, is fundamentally opposed to capitalism.
>>8038859
If it's that easy to be a succesful businessman why don't you leftists go start a fucking business instead of just collecting benefits while whining all Day about muh injustice
>>8038914
I cannot wait.
Jack donovan says the us will dissolve into a patchwork of tiny gangs and militias holding territory as the government can no longer afford to pay police and army.
>>8038928
The oligarchs don't give a shit about you either, not even the hip sillicon valley ones that smoke weed every once in a while. Libertarians are right to fear the state but very stupid to trust unacountable corporate structures.
>>8038934
that's what i always say to ppl that i hear whining about how much money "corporations" make or how they don't pay taxes etc. i'm like shit, if you know some companies making big bucks like that let's buy some shares bro!
>>8035817
Complete nonsense desu. The state is a one to one byproduct of violent conduct. So long as violence maintains as an aspect of human interaction, so too will the state arise as a protectionist element initially, and a coercive power structure inevitably. People form tribes, inner tribal disputes are handled through council with the elders and/or exiling the offender. Alien tribal disputes are handled through engagement of a military aspect to tribal society, warring tribes emerge and as a result the precursor to the state, the governing body, forms.
>>8038918
No, under capitalism the state aids you in your avarice by using its monopoly on violence to protect assets you would not be able to defend on your own. Thus the state heightens inequality to the absurd levels we see today.
>>8038960
Agreed, though I would add that 'corporations' as they stand are a product of the state. Business on that kind of scale (and, importantly, with that lack of accountability) is only possible in a very statist society.
>>8038934
Are you fucking retarded?
>>8038963
Capitalism is an economic system not a social one. The monopoly on violence is a product of statism and corruption.
>>8038974
Answer his question instead of insulting him please. Why haven't you started your own business?
>>8038963
>helps you protect assets you could not defend on your own
so then like how did pre-capitalist kings defend all their shit? if you got more wealth than you and your extended family can personally defend then you start hiring dudes to do it for you, and before you know it, you're a mini king...i guarantee if the united states dissolved next week, within a year the Koch and Walton families would emerge as aristocratic ministates, no one is going to "redistribute" anything
>>8038983
Again, capitalism cannot exist without a state to define and protect property rights.
>>8038789
>Intro to White Supremacy: The Course
>>8038989
"If using child labor is so advantageous, why don't you do it?" Durp.
>>8038994
Then what would you have me call the free exchange of honour-bound and consenting individuals?
>>8038991
>Got gags start rooting for house Gates vs house Wallmart
Wew lad exciting times we live in
>>8039002
Are you saying the only business ideas you can come up with are illegal?
This is still no barrier, mind you, there are plenty of successful drug dealers. Not to mention corner shop owners that do use child labour.
>>8039002
>child labor
well once you anarchists eliminate that pesky state the first thing i'm doing is setting up a brothel of child prostitutes! long live anarchy! smash the state!
>>8038991
>i guarantee if the united states dissolved next week, within a year the Koch and Walton families would emerge as aristocratic ministates
You don't seem to get it. Without a state to legally define what the Kochs "own", all their shit is up for grabs. They would be cowering in their barricaded offices within 24 hours.
>>8038997
The natural social structure of all intelligent social preadatory animals is the pack.
Look at how lions or chimpanzees or wolves organize themselves.
It is the same way that men do in nature.
It is how we have lived for 200k years
woah, wait a minute, without the state who's going to make slavery illegal? aww shit, is that what all this anarchy shit is really about? The South shall rise again! Without those Yankees in Washington DC to tell us what to d, we can live a traditional southern lifestyle again! Amirite?
>>8039010
Fuck off back to /b/. The adults are talking.
>>8039021
they'd just pay a private militia you dummy
you know, like feudalism
>>8039021
No, you don't seem to understand that without a state, the Kochs and Waltons would be the states.
This is evolved into our psychology.
We as humans function a certain way, are adapted to live a certain way.
We live in groups, and at the head of the groups are the most powerful. If not the Kochs and Waltons, then whoever was strong enough to kill them, take their money, and hire their bodygaurds.
>>8039028
>woah, wait a minute, without the state who's going to make slavery illegal?
Without a state there is no defined property, hence no defined human property. Slavery cannot exist without the state.
>>8039021
You don't seem to get it, Without a state to defend your "rights" there's nothing stopping the koch's from paying a militia to fucking gun you down the second you get near one of their refineries
>>8039023
Okay Jack Donavan, thanks for the dissertation on your book. There's nothing wrong with running with a pack or having a strong community, but treating people poorly because of their geographic lineage, genetic makeup or other non-chosen criteria is pretty douche-y.
Run with a pack of people who are ideologically in line with you. Just because Jamal didn't grow up in your home town doesn't mean you should treat him poorly. You should treat him poorly the moment he starts treating you poorly, no sooner nor later.
>>8039036
>they'd just pay a private militia you dummy
"Pay" with what? They don't actually own anything. And of course, the US Dollar is now worthless.
>>8039021
>he thinks the state defines property
They'll be cowering behind their private security agencies while they shoot you for trying to take their shit. Their shit. Their property. The property for the Kochs. The property that's theirs because they have the power to kill you if you touch it. The Kochs' property.
>>8039038
we even have literally private armies in the united states like "Xe Services" not to mention guys like Elon Musk could easily convert their factories to produce military vehicles, or hell, companies like Northrop Grumman already supply the world's armies right now, you think those dudes are going to let you and your pasty anarcho-buddies take their shit? even if you did manage to steal something, do you know how to fly a drone? or calibrate the fucking machines that make tomahawk missiles? get real you moron.
>>8039044
Without a state, there is no property. Hence there would be nothing they could use to "pay for a militia". Without all the legal protections afforded by the state, the Kochs are just elderly bespectacled nerds.
>>8039054
They own more than many and they're, by and large, smart. Any man can see that the kind of people that are wealthy now know how to use their resources to get more resources.
Heck, even if it wasn't today's wealthy dynasties that emerged from the ashes better off than most it would be someone.
>>8039054
their billions of dollars worth of material assets?
>>8039054
pay with oil, that they refined, in their refineries...of course it's possible it could end up like the middle east where after the incompetent bush-obama wars left many areas stateless a religion state took over all the infrastructure and filled the power vacuum...let's face it, if the koch's can't hold their own infrastructure, the guys who will take it will be christian extremists like those dudes from waco texas, or mexican drug cartels...you think those are better than "the state" we have now? moron.
